NS2 Marine Weapons
EmpV
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34556Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34556Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">How should weapons work in NS2?</div>There is already a huge thread about NS2 weapon systems so this thread is <u>NOT</u> for discussion about any type of weapon systems. That thread is here. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418" target="_blank">NS2 Marine Weapon System</a>
Instead, <b>Please discuss how marine weapons could be different or change in NS2. Specifically, the weapons that are already in NS1. Try to avoid discussing any new weapons that have not been mentioned by the Devs.</b>
In NS2, players will have some kind of choice to "buy/choose" what kind of weapon they want. The problem is that the NS1 weapons seem to increase in power and desirability meaning that if given a choice, marine players will usually always just pick the most powerful weapon available.
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->NS2 is more importantly a RTS game before it is a FPS/CS style game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Therefore I would like the discussion to focus on things like:
- How could specific weapons change so that they can counter/have weaknesses against specific alien classes/abilities?
- Could weapons be upgraded in some way as the tech tree progresses to counter alien upgrades? (besides just increasing weapon damage)
- Would changing things like weapon damage/range vs. specific aliens or structures be good or bad?
- Is it possible to make it so that ALL weapons can be used at any stage of the game and still be effective? (LMG in late game?)
Please Discuss <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Edit/Clarification-----------------<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know marine weapons/upgrades/etc. has been discussed in other threads. What I am most interested in is ideas that create RTS style counters between aliens and marines. I am looking for ideas other than this gun damages this alien more than others. There have got to be better ways to do it.
<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->For Example<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Perhaps HMG could be changed in some way so that it is weak against small quick aliens like skulks, but powerful against larger aliens like Onos. This allows aliens to counter by sending in different classes, and marines can counter by using differnt weapons. Perhaps a hmg could have a warmup before it starts firing, or it could cause the marines turning speed to slow down when it is equipped.
I hope that makes sense, that is what I am looking for.
Instead, <b>Please discuss how marine weapons could be different or change in NS2. Specifically, the weapons that are already in NS1. Try to avoid discussing any new weapons that have not been mentioned by the Devs.</b>
In NS2, players will have some kind of choice to "buy/choose" what kind of weapon they want. The problem is that the NS1 weapons seem to increase in power and desirability meaning that if given a choice, marine players will usually always just pick the most powerful weapon available.
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->NS2 is more importantly a RTS game before it is a FPS/CS style game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Therefore I would like the discussion to focus on things like:
- How could specific weapons change so that they can counter/have weaknesses against specific alien classes/abilities?
- Could weapons be upgraded in some way as the tech tree progresses to counter alien upgrades? (besides just increasing weapon damage)
- Would changing things like weapon damage/range vs. specific aliens or structures be good or bad?
- Is it possible to make it so that ALL weapons can be used at any stage of the game and still be effective? (LMG in late game?)
Please Discuss <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Edit/Clarification-----------------<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know marine weapons/upgrades/etc. has been discussed in other threads. What I am most interested in is ideas that create RTS style counters between aliens and marines. I am looking for ideas other than this gun damages this alien more than others. There have got to be better ways to do it.
<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->For Example<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Perhaps HMG could be changed in some way so that it is weak against small quick aliens like skulks, but powerful against larger aliens like Onos. This allows aliens to counter by sending in different classes, and marines can counter by using differnt weapons. Perhaps a hmg could have a warmup before it starts firing, or it could cause the marines turning speed to slow down when it is equipped.
I hope that makes sense, that is what I am looking for.
Comments
Handgun:
NS2 could use a new handgun. Right now the pistol is a sniper-rifle, which doesn't make sense. I think the LMG could take over the long-range role, becoming the best weapon at extreme long ranges by using its scope. The pistol would become more of a support weapon. There could be more than one pistol, one that would be good at long range to complement a Shotgun and another that would be great in close range. See handgun thread for some ideas.
LMG:
If the LMG takes the role of sniper rifle, then it could remain useful in end game in large, open areas or against skulks and lerks far away. The primary fire could be similar to the current one, but using secondary fire would go into scope mode and the bullets would hit with 100% accuracy, at expense of movement speed (or rate of fire).
Armor Piercing Weapons (i guess it's a bad name since AP bullets usually ignore armor... is there a better name for this?)
I think that it would be pretty simple to introduce a new characteristic to weapons: armor piercing. It would work somewhat like the acid rocket in NS1 (where they deal double damage to armor), but it would be more refined. Weapons that have low armor penetration would be great against low lifeforms, like skulks who only have 10ar, while high-level weapons with high penetration would be great against onos and fade, who have high armor.
HMG: would deal increased damage to armor, but lower damage to health. The regeneration upgrade and healing gorge would be great help to counter HMG teams. Diverse weapon marine load-out would be encouraged to help finish off aliens with no armor.
Maybe this isn't what you implied, but: I would be against something like "shotgun has 20% damage bonus against fade" - it just seems very cheap. I'd rather have it so weapons have characteristics that would encourage their use against certain lifeforms in certain environments.
Specific Weapon Upgrades:
I think the commander, besides giving a flat 10/20/30% damage increase, should have ability to research improvements for specific weapons: If aliens have a lot of buildings, the comm could increase GL blast area. If they have lots of fades, comm could increase number of Shotgun pellets from 7 to 9. Finally, he could increase HMG rate of fire (or clip size) to help counter onos.
It gives variety and power to the player without forcing huge amounts of individual guns. Plus, this way the Commander can still maintain control, if we go down that route, instead of everyone buying their own guns.
I also like the Commander researching upgrades for guns idea. However, I'd like to see it as unlocking a feature, and for more cost (res/weight/etc), you could personally attach it/enable it.
- <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/04/we_re_going_to_need_bigger_guns" target="_blank">An introduction to NS2 guns and rough sketches</a>
- <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/06/client_side_scripting_and_weapons" target="_blank">More weapon concepts</a>
- <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/06/client_side_scripting_and_weapons_continued" target="_blank">Technical info on weapon</a>
Based on this concept art, weapon modifications actually might be part of NS2 - judge for yourself:
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/guncollage01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
More weapon concepts:
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/guncollage02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My reaction:
I like that the weapons will have a display similar to Doom 3 where the ammo is shown on the weapon instead of the HUD.
Neither the weapon concepts nor art direction seems to be definite at that point
Since they consider attachments at such an early stage, weapon customization might be part of the game. This opens a whole new venue for speculation.
One example could be the LMG or the Shotgun. Starting with a normal LMG you could get a certain amount of points/score/credits and purchase a scope or increase the weapons firing rate. If you were then to buy a Shotgun you could get something like explosive bullets or decrease the bullet spread radius. Although you purchased a shotgun you initially started with the LMG, so if you wanted to switch back you could go to the armory and by paying a certain amount of points/score/credits (or whatever is used) you could revert back to the LMG.
Things like that would immensely increase the playability of the game and increase the overall fun factor as well. Not to mention weapon customization would work extremely well with a self purchase weapon system (as I've somewhat based the example off) or a separate commander/troop res pool system.
<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->For Example<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Perhaps HMG could be changed in some way so that it is weak against small quick aliens like skulks, but powerful against larger aliens like Onos. This allows aliens to counter by sending in different classes, and marines can counter by using differnt weapons. Perhaps a hmg could have a warmup before it starts firing, or it could cause the marines turning speed to slow down when it is equipped.
I hope that makes sense, that is what I am looking for.
first post updated*
Thanks for your point of view. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
So are you saying that these "buffs" would act as counters? What I am concerned with is getting to the late game and aliens and marines have all the buffs they can get and are all using the biggest guns and biggest classes. It becomes a drag out fight that lasts too long.
I have no problem with a system with weapon buffs if it encourages teamwork or a mix of weapons. I just don't want it to be where everyone will be able to run around with the same gun and own all the aliens they see. A group that is foolish enough to run around with all the same weapon or class should be easily countered. This is where the RTS part of the game should shine. IMHO.
I dissagree about RTS counters only being fun for the commander. I think they can be a lot more fun for the players on the ground. It is fun to know that your group or commander has chosen the right weapon or class to counter the enemys strategy. The only time it is not fun is when you have chosen the wrong strategy or counter... or to put it simply, winning is fun, losing sucks. That is the nature of the game.
Long, drawn out games are the best memories of NS that I have. The many stalemate games that I have played were so much more enjoying as you must crucially think and/or wait to find that tiny chink in the opponents defenses so that you can break through and succeed. That IMO is what makes a good game.
The fact that NS had counter-upgrades was good, but if they go overboard on the different types of upgrades and counters for those upgrades it would ruin the game as you would have to know 109749873 different things just to win. I actually liked the lack of weaknesses/counters that would occur at endgame level. Some things had weaknesses, but not everything did. That lead to a more enjoying game play as the game wasn't won because you got that special upgrade/weapon that the enemy had no defense against, its because you outsmarted your opponent and did something they wouldn't imagine whilst their team was trying to defend something (like for instance rushing the hive/marine spawn or killing off all the RT's.)
Things like that add depth to the game as it's not the game or its mechanics that determines who wins or loses its the player and how they decide to work things out.. If that makes any sense.
and i don't think the lmg should be long range, its the basic machine gun. but you still need the pistol (or some starting weapon) to be long range and accurate. it would highly frustrating to not start with the equipment to deal with the 2 situations of aliens close and aliens far away. not having something to deal with buildings (shotgun) free and immediately is understandable.
Sounds like Empires. Huge tech tree of craziness, unfortunately getting wrong upgrades could = pain since you can't counter the enemy equipment.
As I keep posting, I'd love weapon mods. Just have some kind of determent for adding it on. And not just res hopefully, I kinda like personal credits or weakening other stats.
'This unit is good against this unit, but bad against every other unit but that unit is good against those two units but bad against this one.. *10mins later* .. Although this unit is good against that one its weak against magical horned goats.. Water units useless against everything.. Flying horses..'
/wrist
WTB SIMPLE STRUCTURE.
So are you saying that these "buffs" would act as counters? What I am concerned with is getting to the late game and aliens and marines have all the buffs they can get and are all using the biggest guns and biggest classes. It becomes a drag out fight that lasts too long.
I have no problem with a system with weapon buffs if it encourages teamwork or a mix of weapons. I just don't want it to be where everyone will be able to run around with the same gun and own all the aliens they see. A group that is foolish enough to run around with all the same weapon or class should be easily countered. This is where the RTS part of the game should shine. IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking more of the commander abilities as buffs, but I suppose you could look at the current tech tree that way. I think you got the gist oh what I was saying in that I don't want marine tech to have hard counters/be hard counters for the most part. I would be open to the idea of the commander spells being harder counters since they are temporary. Marines would still relying on the commander to be effective but it's only a temporary disadvantage if the commander gets it wrong.
Some examples of these types of changes:
To make a GL better against larger aliens and not as good against small ones, the grenades could explode on contact when they hit a large alien like an onos, but bounce off skulks or lerks. Or maybe the grenade would only explode on contact when it hits a building?
The LMG could have a side effect of slowing down fast aliens like skulks making them easier to shoot at.
Shotguns could be most effective at very close ranges.
The HMG could be harder to aim or harder to turn quickly while firing. It could have a cooldown period.
It could even be related to the weapon customisation idea (below).
Still, I'm not hopeful that I'll see it going in.
<!--quoteo(post=1669941:date=Feb 8 2008, 11:58 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 8 2008, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, well, since you put it that way, I'll have to suggest the opposite.
The commander gets control over the generic weapon roll-outs (sg, hmg whatever), but the individual marine can customise their weapon to better suit their playstyle. Making generic weapons personal, you know? I think that'd be a good idea, but I don't know if it'll be compatible with the new commander/marine weapon-selection roles suggested for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Why would you want a LMG instead of a HMG?</b> IMHO what you're trying to propose is completely retarded and would break the game. Skulks and LMG's are there as something <b>to fall back onto</b> if the commander/player has no res for better weapons/lifeforms, <b>not to use instead of them</b>. What do you think the weapon damage upgrades and Focus are for?
The reason that NS has weapons/lifeforms that are extremely better than their weaker counterparts is because it plays off of the games theme: Natural Selection; Survival of the fittest. You're supposed to move forward becoming stronger and better at what you do, not move backwards. And out of the 4 suggestions you gave, only the bottom two seem doable. GL are meant to overpower smaller lifeforms and be not as good against larger ones and LMG = teh suck.
Thank you for your <u>Humble</u> opinion. You are obviously not a fan of RTS games.
I believe that I have explained the idea as much as I can, and you have made it clear that you think it is retarded. Thank you for your input, it was not helpful in improving the idea.
I would still like to hear some other opinions or suggestions that could help develop or improve the idea, but if everyone else thinks it is retarded then by all means let the thread die.
It's a good idea.. Just not sure if it would work.
The only thing I can think of thats similar to what your proposing is having separate tech trees that excel in only one certain type of weapon. For example, the Shotgun tech tree: damage > bullet spread reduction > range increase > damage again > explosive bullets. That way every weapon would be better in it's own way depending on how the commander choses to strategize..
But still, LMG will never be better than any other weapon. Maybe through the use of mods, but I can't see it being worthwhile in vanilla.
You are right, in most situations, especially late game, a marine would never choose to have a LMG instead of a HMG. In NS1 the HMG is awesome against ALL alien classes and LMG is certainly not.
I am suggesting that the HMG might not work the same in NS2 as in NS1. My idea makes no sense if you think that the weapons will work the same way as they do in NS1. So try to think about them in a new or different way so that the idea will work. That is the goal of this thread.
So why would you want to use a LMG instead of a HMG in NS2? It all depends on the changes that are made to the two weapons. If a HMG is changed so that it is very powerful, but not effective against fast moving aliens(for example, aiming is slow or has a limited arc while firing), then you just might prefer to have a LMG if you are getting rushed by fast aliens that could avoid your fire by moving quickly. Or better yet! Teamwork could be used by having squads of marines that have a good mix of weapons to deal with any situation.
If there were RTS elements in NS2 weapons, then a sqad that is all using the same exact weapon is just begging to be countered by the aliens.
I think this picture from one of my favorite movies will help. 3 marines. Each with different weapons/equipment. Together they are much stronger than if they were alone or all had the same weapon/equipment.
<img src="http://www.alicia-logic.com/capsimages/a_045Marines.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some weapons being biased in certain situations might be a nice feature as long as you don't emphasize them too much. At best they could encourage teamwork by giving you a slight edge in some fights, but enforcing the counter usage would be disastrous for the public games. One guy not aware of the gun usage could ruin any rush or defence. It's already bad enough that you need to have the proper comm to play the marine rounds, not to speak of having a full team of experienced marines.
Generally the shotgun is one of the most versatile weapons. The only draw back is range.
The GL is more of a luxary type of weapon. For flushing out the vents or buildings. Or if you just want to ruin everyones day while attacking a hive. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
Survival of the <b>fittest</b> - <u>not</u> survival of the strongest. Also, evolution simply means <b>change</b> in traits, <u>not</u> "moving forward." These are frequent misconceptions. Evolution is rooted in change of environment and (sexual) reproduction, so it might be difficult to implement in a FPS...
<!--quoteo(post=1669897:date=Feb 8 2008, 01:26 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Feb 8 2008, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and i don't think the lmg should be long range, its the basic machine gun. but you still need the pistol (or some starting weapon) to be long range and accurate. it would highly frustrating to not start with the equipment to deal with the 2 situations of aliens close and aliens far away. not having something to deal with buildings (shotgun) free and immediately is understandable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I proposed that the LMG would fire the same as NS1 in primary mode, so it would still be good at middle-range. Only the alt-fire would allow perfect accuracy making it the best long-range weapon even in late game. Still, i'd imagine an HMG would be much better most of the time.
I agree that the handgun should compensate for the weakness of primary weapon, but i don't think it should ever be superior than all available primary weapons. In NS1 the pistol is the best weapon in terms of accuracy, of all things. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun#Advantages_of_handguns_versus_shoulder_weapons" target="_blank">It doesn't make sense</a> for a handgun with a short barrel to be more accurate than a shoulder weapon with a scope.
<!--quoteo(post=1670048:date=Feb 9 2008, 10:58 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Feb 9 2008, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But still, LMG will never be better than any other weapon. Maybe through the use of mods, but I can't see it being worthwhile in vanilla.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make the LMG worthwhile under <i>some </i>circumstances? If you give LMG perfect accuracy, it would basically be NS1 pistol with larger clip size. If even that is overpowered for a free weapon, make the scope a middle- to late-game upgrade. It's always a mistake to have a weapon that everyone is eager to get rid of. (I'd also like to have an alternative spawning weapon, so i don't have to run with LMG 95% of the time... but that's a whole different topic)
I don't think the LMG has to be "teh suck" all the time like it was in NS1. Since most spaces are closed and aliens have only few attacks from afar, the LMG would still be the worst weapon most of the time, but players with it could still complement teammates with shotguns and HMGs in open areas.
To add to that idea, the alt-fire could set it between single shot and full-auto, or burst-fire and full-autio
To build on this idea, how about: heavy weapons like HMG and GL will significantly slow down light and JP marines, but HA will be able to carry those without a speed loss. So, even though HA is generally slower than LA, they will be faster compared to an LA with an HMG.
(i don't like the idea of having HA-specific weapons, since that would force the HA upgrade and reduce commander's flexibility.)
Please, keep the pistol accuracy. I don't care if it doesn't make sense; I can rationalize it away with technobabble if you like. The current give take relationship of the pistol/lmg works very well.
However, there have been experimental bullpup pistols, that effectively lengthen (possibly double the length of) the pistol barrel.
A single shot sniper mode for the LMG is a pretty bad idea, imo. Most of the original NS maps are fast paced, indoor maps, which would render any sort of sniper mechanic ineffective. Unless you have a weapon dedicated to sniping that is the equivalent of CS' one shot kill AWP.
I did not say single shot, that would be not work on that we aggree, I said "at the pistol rate" meaning at the rate that you currently fire using the pistol. I was not clear so my bad. To carify it would have to be limited in rounds, say after the 5th or so shot the accurary drops down to the point you might as well be using the LMG normally. Otherwise players would be sniping 50 rounds at a time!
<!--QuoteBegin-Seburo Arms C-X (Wikipedia)+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Seburo Arms C-X (Wikipedia))</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seburo" target="_blank">Seburo</a>
C-X - Compact eXploder is a small bullpup handgun that uses an ammo feed similar to the P90. Cartridges are loaded sideways in a magazine behind the user's thumb. They are spun 90 degrees as they exit the top. The bullpup design allows the weapon to take advantage of a longer barrel. A limited edition garage kit version exists both in a black numbered resin from Poseidon and various conterfeiters usually in white resin, based on the frame of a Walther PPK/S replica airsoft pistol. (Appleseed)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Seburo_C-X.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Eos:
As for the single-shot firing mode for the LMG that I suggested: It would be semi-automatic and quick, with a much higher accuracy (very small firing cone) than the full-auto firing mode. There'd be no sniper scope.
None of you have played BF2? single-shot = semi-auto, ie. <b>'one shot' at a time</b>. It is not a pump action weapon, it'll still have a high firing rate, as fast as you can click your finger.