<i>NS2 Marine Weapons, How should weapons work in NS2?</i>
Hmm, so the OP clarified and was interested in counters, ro sham bo? Paper, rock, scissors? Fire, Water, Earth, Air?
For some odd reason, this got me thinking about the NS2 story, what little we know of it. NS1 I have heard said was the first encounter, then NS2 is the war.
From NS1 what we know of Marine tech is that they use very small robots to basicly perform magic. The phase, they build supplies from seemingly thin air, they have incredible wireless systems ... and yet their weapons seem so, inadequate to the task. Does this seem odd to anyone else? Does anyone else get the impression they went in expecting an "bug hunt" and just armed themselves with basic stuff because they didn't respect the Kharaa's strengths? Just a minimum of resources to get the job done, it seems like some pencil pushing number crunching ignorant bureaucrat originally sent the Marines in.
I would think if the remaining humanity really kicked it into war mode, the Marine's would see more parity between what is potentially possible from nanite construction and a knowledge of phase tech and space travel. Why are the marines still using clips? Why not have the nanites build the projectiles right in the weapon? Why would a marine not just have supplies beacon focus phased to them? Have the humans never considered using phase tech as a weapon? Wormhole gravity well weapons? Why don't marines use energy shields, as seen in one map where the hangar/storage bay was destroyed by something and sealed off from the rest of the map?
But then I feel the story begs the question, wouldn't the Kharaa adapt some means to combat Marine high tech so they don't just phase a bomb (bio, chem, rad, or grav) in to the infection centers. What are the limits of the nanite tech? Have the Kharaa countered it somehow, perhaps attacking the Commander's strengths in some way?
There are many questions behind the conditions the marine weapons powered by marine tech find themselves in, things I am very curious about since it would help a great deal in understanding what makes a marine weapon tick and why it would be good against one Kharaa adaption, weak against another, and general/neutral against its Kharaa counter part.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited February 2008
To delve into the mythos a little bit, the Frontiersmen were limited more by the places the battles were fought than bureaucrats. The reason they can't access heavy weapons right away is they need authorization from the ship/station computer first. There are arcane rules surrounding the use of these "civilian" nanobots such as needing a solider to physically authorize the building of a structure. I'd expect to see some of these rules relaxed as the stations are built/retrofitted with bacteria infestation in mind, but in reality the game story will be built around the gameplay and not the other way around.
Just to edit: The details of the game story will be built around the gameplay. I'm sure the devs have a narrative/timeline as a framework for the story somewhere.
Maybe must we stop thinking damage for weapon but more at some special support weapon for more strategy. Like an electric charge pistol wich can temporary disable the cloak abilities of a Kharaa to avoid embush... Why not a sniper weapon? Not a darn AWP CS style one shot sniper but a slow support weapon useless alone wich can weak, slow or stun an alien in function of his species... P.eg stun a Lerk Umbra to make vulnerable the protected Onos... And why not go hunt an Onos with shotguns marines and one support sniper (with weak/slow effect, disable stomp, eating or even redemption effect, etc...) to invert the hunter/hunted roles? The sniper may become the priority for aliens to cover a Onos rush... Think at an invicible Fade... Simply scared by a marine with a anti-metabolize weapon? Or... A Lerk who can't fly ! XD This kind of weapons may cost a fortune but still be useless in high number... With 10 damage and one shot every 2 or 3 seconds?
Yes, but with 10 damage, snipers aren't here for hunt alone an alien. It's only a support for others marines and a danger for isolate alien... It's only an idea...
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
edited March 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1669742:date=Feb 6 2008, 10:14 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Feb 6 2008, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps a hmg could have a warmup before it starts firing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that it would be a good idea. We would end up with players running around and warming-up their HMG all the time (what i mean is: if 3 seconds are needed to warm up and start firing, players would be pressing the mouse button for only two seconds, waiting a second, pressing again etc. so they can attack faster when they encounter an enemy).
But I know (or hope to understand) what you're trying to achieve...
[EDIT] (AHA! Someone already mentioned that below ;p damn ;]) [/EDIT] How about making the player "feel" that a HMG is heavier\larger? For example, make the weapon lag a bit - you need to put more effort into moving it, therefore there would be a delay in the actual trajectory of the bullets to equal with the crosshair (which would look like in HL2, you could feel that the line of sight is changing faster than the position of gordon's hands). Not too much, but still enough to make it hard to shoot a running skulk or flying lerk (even harder with celerity!), but not really that hard when it comes to shooting at a huge Onos. Fade, although medium-sized, can also be very fast... but that could be changed a bit in NS2! Of course long reloads would still apply.
Shotty might be somewhere in the middle, not as good when it comes to medium-long distances, small ammo capacity, but nice damage and ability to attack in the middle of a reload.
So LMG still could be good in late game, but only for skulks/lerks... the idea of having a scope as a modification is really interesting, and would have sense if we would stick to having a powerful but awkward HMG, in-the-middle-shotty and weak but accurate LMG. But... something is not right here and I don't know what <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I think it's because there is/was a general trend in NS for not having sniper weapons (since it wasn't fitting in the whole Alien theme)... like as if NS stand for both Natural Selction and.... <b>N</b>O <b>S</b>NIPERS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Hmm, another approach to the LMG issue (which I am in favor of): combine a LMG with the grenade launcher? Rather than having a separate GL, commander would give out/players would buy an addition in the form of a detachable nade launcher which would be added to the LMG. That would not be a permanent modification, when a player dies he <u>does not</u> respawn back with the LMG+GL, but only with his standard issue. By detachable nade launcher I mean something bigger/more complex with as big ammo capacity like in NS1, not sth small as in real life H&K MP5/Colt M4. IMHO that would be a fun thing to look at if LMG and GL would look as two pices of a puzzle, which give a completely new gun when combined.
That would give LMG a new quality and make GL used more often, since a player would be a bit less dependent on other members of the team. Now, if in a group of marines only the GL people will end up alive, they are as good as dead. Nades are powerful of course, but not effective vs aliens in close combat. Don't know if you guys experience the same, but I see that players use less and less GL's. For a few stupid OC's comm prefers to build up a sige and recycle it, rather then give a GL that might be lost together with the resources you had to spend for it! If a player with LMG+GL would have a potential to defend himself from, at least, lower alien life forms than it might change this situation...
and there would be a sens to have a LMG+GL guys in a squad, they maybe won't do too much damage on the way to the hive, but at the hive / at a OC blockade on the way the situation will change by 180*!
<!--quoteo(post=1671700:date=Feb 29 2008, 08:18 PM:name=Recupel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Recupel @ Feb 29 2008, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but with 10 damage, snipers aren't here for hunt alone an alien. It's only a support for others marines and a danger for isolate alien... It's only an idea...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 10 damage? for a sniper? and you can only fire it once every two or three seconds? that's useless. think of it in terms of damage-per-second - and that's only if you hit anything.
i'm against any sort of <b>sniper</b> rifle, but not against a semi-automatic rifle. give the lmg a semi-auto firing mode that comes with higher accuracy (minute firing cone), maybe even a different crosshair (since the other crosshairs do indicate a 'spread'); and it can take the place of a 'sniper' weapon, and yet be versatile enough to still be used in close combat (when you switch back to full-auto)
<!--quoteo(post=1669980:date=Feb 8 2008, 01:44 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Feb 8 2008, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b> I am simply looking for a way to keep ALL weapons useful for the entire lengnth of the game.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They already are. The HMG/SG/GL cost extra resources to get - why SHOULDN'T they be better than the free LMG?
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
edited March 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1671812:date=Mar 1 2008, 10:58 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 1 2008, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They already are. The HMG/SG/GL cost extra resources to get - why SHOULDN'T they be better than the free LMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's a very good point - if we speculate that NS2 will have the same weapon system as it was in NS1 - one weapon dealing more damage than another. However, if the weapons gonna change to a more dod like - each one good, but with it's advantages and disadvantages vs specific alien life-form, structure or circumstances, than the weapons might not have a different cost - all would cost the same (apart from some costs connected with potential need of unblocking them via research). If that would be the case, LMG should be somehow attractive in the late game...
More expensive doesn't equate better. Read <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/" target="_blank">http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/</a> for some more indepth stuff on balance in general (someone already posted it in the balance thread, I know).
More expensive should mean more specific. I agree that we shouldn't make prior weapons obsolete with newer, more expensive stuff. They should simply be more effective for a more specific use. GLs were great in that regard, a very specific weapon for blowing up buildings, but generally not too great for lifeforms (until really good players figured out how to cheese the GL spam on skulks). Yes, more expense should equate more reward, but not at the cost of making prior stuff obsolete. If anything, the free stuff shouldn't be obsolete due to the fact that THEY'RE FREE. Duh. No cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1671739:date=Feb 29 2008, 09:25 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Feb 29 2008, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But... something is not right here and I don't know what <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I think it's because there is/was a general trend in NS for not having sniper weapons (since it wasn't fitting in the whole Alien theme)... like as if NS stand for both Natural Selction and.... <b>N</b>O <b>S</b>NIPERS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmm... It was only an idea... I dont think no more at a snipe weapon but more at a support weapon... And i say sniper cause i was thinking at Jurassic Park XD <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> For T-Rex hunting, a sniper with soporific arrow XD Now i m thinking at different design for a support weapon... :/ Did you say tazer? XD
<!--quoteo(post=1671768:date=Mar 1 2008, 05:35 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 1 2008, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->10 damage? for a sniper? and you can only fire it once every two or three seconds? that's useless. think of it in terms of damage-per-second - and that's only if you hit anything.
i'm against any sort of <b>sniper</b> rifle, but not against a semi-automatic rifle. give the lmg a semi-auto firing mode that comes with higher accuracy (minute firing cone), maybe even a different crosshair (since the other crosshairs do indicate a 'spread'); and it can take the place of a 'sniper' weapon, and yet be versatile enough to still be used in close combat (when you switch back to full-auto)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say 10 damage to insist on the support-role more than the wtf-one-shoot-kill-counter-strike-awp-role... I think not in "what weapon deal more damage" but more at "what weapon can make my team wins"
And for the others, i can say... I simply hate HMG XD Everybody takes HMG to kill huge Onos or Fade, but nobody think at the fast little Skulks and Lerks... But... I love my sweet ShotGun XD
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1671956:date=Mar 3 2008, 12:48 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Mar 3 2008, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More expensive doesn't equate better. Read <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/" target="_blank">http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/</a> for some more indepth stuff on balance in general (someone already posted it in the balance thread, I know).
More expensive should mean more specific. I agree that we shouldn't make prior weapons obsolete with newer, more expensive stuff. They should simply be more effective for a more specific use. GLs were great in that regard, a very specific weapon for blowing up buildings, but generally not too great for lifeforms (until really good players figured out how to cheese the GL spam on skulks). Yes, more expense should equate more reward, but not at the cost of making prior stuff obsolete. If anything, the free stuff shouldn't be obsolete due to the fact that THEY'RE FREE. Duh. No cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're using obsolete in too broad of a way. Having a shotgun in the field doesn't make all lmgs "obsolete"(they still fire bullets and are relatively effective against every lifeform) but almost everyone would rather have a shotgun than an lmg. When you "specialize" weapons(ie the gl) that's when you risk making them obsolete. Good link btw.
I am going to summarize some of the ideas that match the intention of the thread. I am leaving out some of the ideas like weapon damage changes because that is not the type of change that this thread is all about.
1) I like the idea of making weapon weight a factor. A Heavy Armor marines movement is the same no matter what weapon they have, but if a regular marine uses a GL or HMG, they have their speed reduced to slower than the speed a Heavy marine can move. This might make you decide to pick a light weapon so that you can run faster. Also, Jetpacks might not be able to lift these heavier weapons as efficiently making a JP marine much more vulnerable when he has a heavy weapon.
2) Related to number 1. Heavy weapons could "lag" behind your crosshair so that heavy weapons are sluggish and harder to aim quickly. They still do much larger damage, but are weak against a fast moving target.
3) Some people suggested new weapons that could have specific effects on alien ability.(a special weapon that could uncloak aliens nearby for example) There was also the mention of special ammo that could be used in a shotgun or other gun that would have similar effects. I do not think we need completely new weapons, but addons to weapons of some kind could allow you to customize your weapon for a specific task.(more on this in #4)
4) One of my points was to make the LMG useful later in the game when other weapons like HMG and GL are available. Many of you suggested things like scopes, attachments and firing modes. I think the key concept here is <b>attachments</b>. The LMG could be made so that it can have attachments added to it. It could be just 1 or maybe 3 different attachments at a time. While Shotguns/HMG's/GL's could still have a cost associated with them, the LMG could be customized depending on the situation. Some of these "attachments" could be researched by the commander and certain attachments would not be available until late game.
Some possible attachments ideas include: <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->grenade launcher flashlight(maybe special for uncloaking aliens?) flame unit stun weapon(slow down/stun aliens) welder scope(improves accuracy when using) extra ammo tagger(tag aliens for tracking) motion tracker<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The point is that if the LMG has special attachment upgrades available to it at different points in the game, it can be a very useful support weapon that would be fun to use in the late game. Attachments could be tailored to be most useful to help other marines that might have heavy weapons. If marines have personal credits of some kind to spend, they might actually choose to gpurchase attachments sometimes rather than buy a HMG or Shotgun. These attachments could also be used with an Alt-Fire mode. It might also be possible to get attachments for other weapons, but this is one idea that helps out the LMG.
I like the addons to the LMG, this would also make it easier for custom servers to try out ideas.
<b>From EmpV post
grenade launcher </b> - nice but should have only 4-8 rounds so a pure GL is still worth it.
<b>flashlight (maybe special for uncloaking aliens?) </b> - prefer another type of GL addon instead that fires out a deploable unit which keeps pulsing for an extended period of time (30secs). It stays funcutonal untill distoryed by the aliens or there are no marines in the room. Then it shuts down. This way marines can't spam the map with them but cloakers are counted. Still not as good as an obs.
<b>flame unit</b> - Short brust weapon that wraps around structures, great for vents?
<b>stun weapon(slow down/stun aliens)</b> - Would be a bit much but if muilple shots are required that wear off then fantastic
<b>welder</b> - Prefer this as is, welding should require you to drop your guard
<b>scope(improves accuracy when using)</b> - Prefer this defult add on that is either kept or replaced by the rest
<b>extra ammo</b> -Prefer this as is: we already have too much armoury humping
<b>tagger(tag aliens for tracking)</b> - Nice, far too often 3 ono's attack the base and team members do not concentrate their fire
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1672128:date=Mar 4 2008, 05:49 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Mar 4 2008, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->grenade launcher [/b] - nice but should have only 4-8 rounds so a pure GL is still worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO you want either lmg addons or separate weapons, not both because it would be too redundant.
I'd like to see a few addons thus giving more options for tech and spending, but not a huge number of them for each weapon.
I'd still like to see a little more variety in the basic weapons as well. It's pretty good, but I'm sure we could add a few more in-betweens / special weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1672131:date=Mar 5 2008, 08:22 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 5 2008, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO you want either lmg addons or separate weapons, not both because it would be too redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Add-ons should only contribute to an existing function, at least in this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1672266:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:33 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 6 2008, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Add-ons should only contribute to an existing function, at least in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. Look at Empires. There are several basic tank chassis available and several weapon load outs (fully customizable by the player). Granted, almost anything is better than the light tank with basic cannon and missiles and armor, but the fun is that there's so many ways you could tech up. Go for the next Chassis? Better armor? Bigger Cannon? Faster Engine? Or perhaps go for specific combinations, like the engine that doesn't stall the tank when you overheat or the engine with a lot of cooling and weapons that generate a lot of heat and stall enemy tanks.
See, the basic version is obsolete (except that it costs very little) but the variety of ways you can advance not only the basic weapon (thank chassis) but also what you load it with gives a huge depth to the strategy.
Also, I am using the term obsolete to describe no one would want to use it. They might have to use it out of necessity, but the resources saved are unbalanced by the resources lost since they are ineffective at combat. The LMG is free in NS, but losing a fight can cost a res node, a forward base, or even taking/holding a Hive against Fades and Oni, making it obsolete in the current NS incarnation.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1672346:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:06 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Mar 6 2008, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not necessarily. Look at Empires. There are several basic tank chassis available and several weapon load outs (fully customizable by the player). Granted, almost anything is better than the light tank with basic cannon and missiles and armor, but the fun is that there's so many ways you could tech up. Go for the next Chassis? Better armor? Bigger Cannon? Faster Engine? Or perhaps go for specific combinations, like the engine that doesn't stall the tank when you overheat or the engine with a lot of cooling and weapons that generate a lot of heat and stall enemy tanks.
See, the basic version is obsolete (except that it costs very little) but the variety of ways you can advance not only the basic weapon (thank chassis) but also what you load it with gives a huge depth to the strategy.
Also, I am using the term obsolete to describe no one would want to use it. They might have to use it out of necessity, but the resources saved are unbalanced by the resources lost since they are ineffective at combat. The LMG is free in NS, but losing a fight can cost a res node, a forward base, or even taking/holding a Hive against Fades and Oni, making it obsolete in the current NS incarnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't quite see how your tank analogy applies to NS. The upgrade system is similar is equipment style vs global effects I suppose. Having the option to buy a grenade launcher or upgrade your LMG to a worse grenade launcher for less money doesn't really scream variety to me though.
I like the idea of attaching a temp GL to your LMG that fires on secondary fire, but why would you ever buy a GL then?
<!--quoteo(post=1672353:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:41 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 6 2008, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't quite see how your tank analogy applies to NS. The upgrade system is similar is equipment style vs global effects I suppose. Having the option to buy a grenade launcher or upgrade your LMG to a worse grenade launcher for less money doesn't really scream variety to me though.
I like the idea of attaching a temp GL to your LMG that fires on secondary fire, but why would you ever buy a GL then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I thought of is that it would be similar to how our grenades do now, you just get the two (or whatever number) and that's it, you used up your attachments special, all done - plus toss in the way grenade launcher works for reload now and make the new grenade launcher work with a better reload system, like a clip or belt system.
Sorry if the analogy was vague. It was more of a weapon containing abilities analogy to tank chassis with weapons. Pretty lame in the current NS1 system.
The key difference of addons, such as an LMG grenade launcher attachment, would be it would augment the LMG. The LMG would stay a LMG, but with the ability to swap into firing a few grenades quickly. However, these grenades are in much smaller supply, slower refire rate (need to load individually), and there to make the LMG better. However, getting a full on GL would be for the 4 grenades, and better grenades. Perhaps longer range as well. The GL might also have a few addons, perhaps in the form of special grenades that cost more and limited carrying capacity.
So, each individual weapon stays unique and useful, but addons would give adapability. An LMG with a GL addon would be more for clearing areas, but if instead you used a silencer or the sniper addon the LMG is more suited for individual combat or sneaky flank attacks. Not advertising these as addons, just illustrating the possibilities. Also, each addon could have a disadvantage, like the GL attachment might add weight and lower maximum ammo.
Comments
Hmm, so the OP clarified and was interested in counters, ro sham bo? Paper, rock, scissors? Fire, Water, Earth, Air?
For some odd reason, this got me thinking about the NS2 story, what little we know of it. NS1 I have heard said was the first encounter, then NS2 is the war.
From NS1 what we know of Marine tech is that they use very small robots to basicly perform magic. The phase, they build supplies from seemingly thin air, they have incredible wireless systems ... and yet their weapons seem so, inadequate to the task. Does this seem odd to anyone else? Does anyone else get the impression they went in expecting an "bug hunt" and just armed themselves with basic stuff because they didn't respect the Kharaa's strengths? Just a minimum of resources to get the job done, it seems like some pencil pushing number crunching ignorant bureaucrat originally sent the Marines in.
I would think if the remaining humanity really kicked it into war mode, the Marine's would see more parity between what is potentially possible from nanite construction and a knowledge of phase tech and space travel. Why are the marines still using clips? Why not have the nanites build the projectiles right in the weapon? Why would a marine not just have supplies beacon focus phased to them? Have the humans never considered using phase tech as a weapon? Wormhole gravity well weapons? Why don't marines use energy shields, as seen in one map where the hangar/storage bay was destroyed by something and sealed off from the rest of the map?
But then I feel the story begs the question, wouldn't the Kharaa adapt some means to combat Marine high tech so they don't just phase a bomb (bio, chem, rad, or grav) in to the infection centers. What are the limits of the nanite tech? Have the Kharaa countered it somehow, perhaps attacking the Commander's strengths in some way?
There are many questions behind the conditions the marine weapons powered by marine tech find themselves in, things I am very curious about since it would help a great deal in understanding what makes a marine weapon tick and why it would be good against one Kharaa adaption, weak against another, and general/neutral against its Kharaa counter part.
Just to edit: The details of the game story will be built around the gameplay. I'm sure the devs have a narrative/timeline as a framework for the story somewhere.
Like an electric charge pistol wich can temporary disable the cloak abilities of a Kharaa to avoid embush...
Why not a sniper weapon? Not a darn AWP CS style one shot sniper but a slow support weapon useless alone wich can weak, slow or stun an alien in function of his species...
P.eg stun a Lerk Umbra to make vulnerable the protected Onos...
And why not go hunt an Onos with shotguns marines and one support sniper (with weak/slow effect, disable stomp, eating or even redemption effect, etc...) to invert the hunter/hunted roles?
The sniper may become the priority for aliens to cover a Onos rush...
Think at an invicible Fade... Simply scared by a marine with a anti-metabolize weapon?
Or... A Lerk who can't fly ! XD
This kind of weapons may cost a fortune but still be useless in high number... With 10 damage and one shot every 2 or 3 seconds?
It's only a support for others marines and a danger for isolate alien...
It's only an idea...
I don't think that it would be a good idea. We would end up with players running around and warming-up their HMG all the time (what i mean is: if 3 seconds are needed to warm up and start firing, players would be pressing the mouse button for only two seconds, waiting a second, pressing again etc. so they can attack faster when they encounter an enemy).
But I know (or hope to understand) what you're trying to achieve...
[EDIT]
(AHA! Someone already mentioned that below ;p damn ;])
[/EDIT]
How about making the player "feel" that a HMG is heavier\larger? For example, make the weapon lag a bit - you need to put more effort into moving it, therefore there would be a delay in the actual trajectory of the bullets to equal with the crosshair (which would look like in HL2, you could feel that the line of sight is changing faster than the position of gordon's hands). Not too much, but still enough to make it hard to shoot a running skulk or flying lerk (even harder with celerity!), but not really that hard when it comes to shooting at a huge Onos. Fade, although medium-sized, can also be very fast... but that could be changed a bit in NS2! Of course long reloads would still apply.
Shotty might be somewhere in the middle, not as good when it comes to medium-long distances, small ammo capacity, but nice damage and ability to attack in the middle of a reload.
So LMG still could be good in late game, but only for skulks/lerks... the idea of having a scope as a modification is really interesting, and would have sense if we would stick to having a powerful but awkward HMG, in-the-middle-shotty and weak but accurate LMG. But... something is not right here and I don't know what <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I think it's because there is/was a general trend in NS for not having sniper weapons (since it wasn't fitting in the whole Alien theme)... like as if NS stand for both Natural Selction and.... <b>N</b>O <b>S</b>NIPERS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Hmm, another approach to the LMG issue (which I am in favor of): combine a LMG with the grenade launcher? Rather than having a separate GL, commander would give out/players would buy an addition in the form of a detachable nade launcher which would be added to the LMG. That would not be a permanent modification, when a player dies he <u>does not</u> respawn back with the LMG+GL, but only with his standard issue. By detachable nade launcher I mean something bigger/more complex with as big ammo capacity like in NS1, not sth small as in real life H&K MP5/Colt M4. IMHO that would be a fun thing to look at if LMG and GL would look as two pices of a puzzle, which give a completely new gun when combined.
That would give LMG a new quality and make GL used more often, since a player would be a bit less dependent on other members of the team. Now, if in a group of marines only the GL people will end up alive, they are as good as dead. Nades are powerful of course, but not effective vs aliens in close combat. Don't know if you guys experience the same, but I see that players use less and less GL's. For a few stupid OC's comm prefers to build up a sige and recycle it, rather then give a GL that might be lost together with the resources you had to spend for it! If a player with LMG+GL would have a potential to defend himself from, at least, lower alien life forms than it might change this situation...
and there would be a sens to have a LMG+GL guys in a squad, they maybe won't do too much damage on the way to the hive, but at the hive / at a OC blockade on the way the situation will change by 180*!
It's only a support for others marines and a danger for isolate alien...
It's only an idea...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 damage? for a sniper? and you can only fire it once every two or three seconds? that's useless. think of it in terms of damage-per-second - and that's only if you hit anything.
i'm against any sort of <b>sniper</b> rifle, but not against a semi-automatic rifle. give the lmg a semi-auto firing mode that comes with higher accuracy (minute firing cone), maybe even a different crosshair (since the other crosshairs do indicate a 'spread'); and it can take the place of a 'sniper' weapon, and yet be versatile enough to still be used in close combat (when you switch back to full-auto)
They already are. The HMG/SG/GL cost extra resources to get - why SHOULDN'T they be better than the free LMG?
that's a very good point - if we speculate that NS2 will have the same weapon system as it was in NS1 - one weapon dealing more damage than another. However, if the weapons gonna change to a more dod like - each one good, but with it's advantages and disadvantages vs specific alien life-form, structure or circumstances, than the weapons might not have a different cost - all would cost the same (apart from some costs connected with potential need of unblocking them via research). If that would be the case, LMG should be somehow attractive in the late game...
More expensive should mean more specific. I agree that we shouldn't make prior weapons obsolete with newer, more expensive stuff. They should simply be more effective for a more specific use. GLs were great in that regard, a very specific weapon for blowing up buildings, but generally not too great for lifeforms (until really good players figured out how to cheese the GL spam on skulks). Yes, more expense should equate more reward, but not at the cost of making prior stuff obsolete. If anything, the free stuff shouldn't be obsolete due to the fact that THEY'RE FREE. Duh. No cost.
Mmm... It was only an idea... I dont think no more at a snipe weapon but more at a support weapon... And i say sniper cause i was thinking at Jurassic Park XD <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
For T-Rex hunting, a sniper with soporific arrow XD
Now i m thinking at different design for a support weapon... :/
Did you say tazer? XD
<!--quoteo(post=1671768:date=Mar 1 2008, 05:35 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 1 2008, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->10 damage? for a sniper? and you can only fire it once every two or three seconds? that's useless. think of it in terms of damage-per-second - and that's only if you hit anything.
i'm against any sort of <b>sniper</b> rifle, but not against a semi-automatic rifle. give the lmg a semi-auto firing mode that comes with higher accuracy (minute firing cone), maybe even a different crosshair (since the other crosshairs do indicate a 'spread'); and it can take the place of a 'sniper' weapon, and yet be versatile enough to still be used in close combat (when you switch back to full-auto)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say 10 damage to insist on the support-role more than the wtf-one-shoot-kill-counter-strike-awp-role...
I think not in "what weapon deal more damage" but more at "what weapon can make my team wins"
And for the others, i can say... I simply hate HMG XD
Everybody takes HMG to kill huge Onos or Fade, but nobody think at the fast little Skulks and Lerks...
But... I love my sweet ShotGun XD
More expensive should mean more specific. I agree that we shouldn't make prior weapons obsolete with newer, more expensive stuff. They should simply be more effective for a more specific use. GLs were great in that regard, a very specific weapon for blowing up buildings, but generally not too great for lifeforms (until really good players figured out how to cheese the GL spam on skulks). Yes, more expense should equate more reward, but not at the cost of making prior stuff obsolete. If anything, the free stuff shouldn't be obsolete due to the fact that THEY'RE FREE. Duh. No cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're using obsolete in too broad of a way. Having a shotgun in the field doesn't make all lmgs "obsolete"(they still fire bullets and are relatively effective against every lifeform) but almost everyone would rather have a shotgun than an lmg. When you "specialize" weapons(ie the gl) that's when you risk making them obsolete. Good link btw.
I am going to summarize some of the ideas that match the intention of the thread. I am leaving out some of the ideas like weapon damage changes because that is not the type of change that this thread is all about.
1) I like the idea of making weapon weight a factor. A Heavy Armor marines movement is the same no matter what weapon they have, but if a regular marine uses a GL or HMG, they have their speed reduced to slower than the speed a Heavy marine can move. This might make you decide to pick a light weapon so that you can run faster. Also, Jetpacks might not be able to lift these heavier weapons as efficiently making a JP marine much more vulnerable when he has a heavy weapon.
2) Related to number 1. Heavy weapons could "lag" behind your crosshair so that heavy weapons are sluggish and harder to aim quickly. They still do much larger damage, but are weak against a fast moving target.
3) Some people suggested new weapons that could have specific effects on alien ability.(a special weapon that could uncloak aliens nearby for example) There was also the mention of special ammo that could be used in a shotgun or other gun that would have similar effects. I do not think we need completely new weapons, but addons to weapons of some kind could allow you to customize your weapon for a specific task.(more on this in #4)
4) One of my points was to make the LMG useful later in the game when other weapons like HMG and GL are available. Many of you suggested things like scopes, attachments and firing modes. I think the key concept here is <b>attachments</b>. The LMG could be made so that it can have attachments added to it. It could be just 1 or maybe 3 different attachments at a time. While Shotguns/HMG's/GL's could still have a cost associated with them, the LMG could be customized depending on the situation. Some of these "attachments" could be researched by the commander and certain attachments would not be available until late game.
Some possible attachments ideas include:
<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->grenade launcher
flashlight(maybe special for uncloaking aliens?)
flame unit
stun weapon(slow down/stun aliens)
welder
scope(improves accuracy when using)
extra ammo
tagger(tag aliens for tracking)
motion tracker<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The point is that if the LMG has special attachment upgrades available to it at different points in the game, it can be a very useful support weapon that would be fun to use in the late game. Attachments could be tailored to be most useful to help other marines that might have heavy weapons. If marines have personal credits of some kind to spend, they might actually choose to gpurchase attachments sometimes rather than buy a HMG or Shotgun. These attachments could also be used with an Alt-Fire mode.
It might also be possible to get attachments for other weapons, but this is one idea that helps out the LMG.
<b>From EmpV post
grenade launcher </b>
- nice but should have only 4-8 rounds so a pure GL is still worth it.
<b>flashlight (maybe special for uncloaking aliens?) </b>
- prefer another type of GL addon instead that fires out a deploable unit which keeps pulsing for an extended period of time (30secs). It stays funcutonal untill distoryed by the aliens or there are no marines in the room. Then it shuts down. This way marines can't spam the map with them but cloakers are counted. Still not as good as an obs.
<b>flame unit</b>
- Short brust weapon that wraps around structures, great for vents?
<b>stun weapon(slow down/stun aliens)</b>
- Would be a bit much but if muilple shots are required that wear off then fantastic
<b>welder</b>
- Prefer this as is, welding should require you to drop your guard
<b>scope(improves accuracy when using)</b>
- Prefer this defult add on that is either kept or replaced by the rest
<b>extra ammo</b>
-Prefer this as is: we already have too much armoury humping
<b>tagger(tag aliens for tracking)</b>
- Nice, far too often 3 ono's attack the base and team members do not concentrate their fire
<b>motion tracker</b>
-Prefer this as is
- nice but should have only 4-8 rounds so a pure GL is still worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO you want either lmg addons or separate weapons, not both because it would be too redundant.
I'd still like to see a little more variety in the basic weapons as well. It's pretty good, but I'm sure we could add a few more in-betweens / special weapons.
Love the lag idea for bulky weapons, btw.
Agreed. Add-ons should only contribute to an existing function, at least in this game.
Not necessarily. Look at Empires. There are several basic tank chassis available and several weapon load outs (fully customizable by the player). Granted, almost anything is better than the light tank with basic cannon and missiles and armor, but the fun is that there's so many ways you could tech up. Go for the next Chassis? Better armor? Bigger Cannon? Faster Engine? Or perhaps go for specific combinations, like the engine that doesn't stall the tank when you overheat or the engine with a lot of cooling and weapons that generate a lot of heat and stall enemy tanks.
See, the basic version is obsolete (except that it costs very little) but the variety of ways you can advance not only the basic weapon (thank chassis) but also what you load it with gives a huge depth to the strategy.
Also, I am using the term obsolete to describe no one would want to use it. They might have to use it out of necessity, but the resources saved are unbalanced by the resources lost since they are ineffective at combat. The LMG is free in NS, but losing a fight can cost a res node, a forward base, or even taking/holding a Hive against Fades and Oni, making it obsolete in the current NS incarnation.
See, the basic version is obsolete (except that it costs very little) but the variety of ways you can advance not only the basic weapon (thank chassis) but also what you load it with gives a huge depth to the strategy.
Also, I am using the term obsolete to describe no one would want to use it. They might have to use it out of necessity, but the resources saved are unbalanced by the resources lost since they are ineffective at combat. The LMG is free in NS, but losing a fight can cost a res node, a forward base, or even taking/holding a Hive against Fades and Oni, making it obsolete in the current NS incarnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't quite see how your tank analogy applies to NS. The upgrade system is similar is equipment style vs global effects I suppose. Having the option to buy a grenade launcher or upgrade your LMG to a worse grenade launcher for less money doesn't really scream variety to me though.
I like the idea of attaching a temp GL to your LMG that fires on secondary fire, but why would you ever buy a GL then?
I like the idea of attaching a temp GL to your LMG that fires on secondary fire, but why would you ever buy a GL then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I thought of is that it would be similar to how our grenades do now, you just get the two (or whatever number) and that's it, you used up your attachments special, all done - plus toss in the way grenade launcher works for reload now and make the new grenade launcher work with a better reload system, like a clip or belt system.
The key difference of addons, such as an LMG grenade launcher attachment, would be it would augment the LMG. The LMG would stay a LMG, but with the ability to swap into firing a few grenades quickly. However, these grenades are in much smaller supply, slower refire rate (need to load individually), and there to make the LMG better. However, getting a full on GL would be for the 4 grenades, and better grenades. Perhaps longer range as well. The GL might also have a few addons, perhaps in the form of special grenades that cost more and limited carrying capacity.
So, each individual weapon stays unique and useful, but addons would give adapability. An LMG with a GL addon would be more for clearing areas, but if instead you used a silencer or the sniper addon the LMG is more suited for individual combat or sneaky flank attacks. Not advertising these as addons, just illustrating the possibilities. Also, each addon could have a disadvantage, like the GL attachment might add weight and lower maximum ammo.