Death Count
Crowe
Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23711Members
Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23711Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Remove...</div>I think you guys should remove the amount of times a player has died from the scoreboard, like you used to have around 1.04. The reason i say this is because back in 1.04, alien players used to rush to get that PG down thats going up outside the hive. Marines used to phase even if aliens were chewing the PG. I've noticed a serious decline in players getting where they need to be when the odds are that they will die because they are becoming too discouraged by their death count. Its totally subtracted from teamplay. The only real purpose i see that this serves is for some hotshot to rush hive at round start, spawncamp the aliens till 20-0, beg the comm for ammo, then go on an e-peen tangent. This, to me, doesn't quite match your vision IMO.
Speaking of aliens getting spawncamped, can they maybe not this time around?
Speaking of aliens getting spawncamped, can they maybe not this time around?
Comments
You can add this to an approximation of their current tech level and number of nodes to understand roughly how advanced their side of the game is.
I don't know that that game element is *needed* per se, but I think I'd miss it if it were removed from NS2 - I guess it could be alright.
*RFK = resources from kills
As Radix mentioned, it helps gauge resources of the other team. Also, often times it is a very good way to figure out who to give weapons to and see their skill since you're usually broken up into independent teams. And if you have a spawn killing jerk, well, there will be other ways I'm sure to cheese whatever measurement system is put in place to appear better than you are. The clincher is a good comm will figure out who is actually worthy of shiny stuff and who's just going to be a jerk.
Also, people who worry about their kill/death ratio too much need to learn that kill/death isn't the end all. I've caused Marines to win with no kills that round because I was sneaking around capping the entire map while my buddies kept the Aliens engaged. All that equipment they had? That's right, I got the res so they could get them. So what I went 0-10 that round and someone else went 40-2, I knew I was the game breaker.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->"It would take to much time to rework all of the balancing issues"<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->-- roughly summarized from quotes from Zunni and various PTs dated 2-3 years ago in the I&S for NS 3.0 forum.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I will try to stay away from derailing your thread Crowe, but I STRONGLY support removal of RFK for marines and still do. Big time <b>vote <!--coloro:#00EE00--><span style="color:#00EE00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> on that one.
On the other side its pretty helpful for the com. He wont give the only HA to a noob-like player with a kill-to-death-ratio of 1:9.
It's okay if he's the only one who may see it, cause its necessary.
IMHO its okay to count the RFK*-deaths for each<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro--> <b>team</b> <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->and show them public.
*RFK = resources from kills
What? But the question was whether to remove the Death Count (or is that what you're saying? still, if you say vote yes, its usually in regard to the topic-starter's posts). You know, just the number that tells you you've been killed 12 times.
As for gauging the resources of the other team, well, you don't usually know that in a RTS game. And on the other hand, is removing death-count necessarily synonymous with removing kill-count?
For example you remove death count altogether, make individual kill-count hidden (accessed when you die, like in TF2), and show a team's total kill count (edit: as Creaker and Crowe have mentioned - kinda skipped a bit to write my reply before going back and reading) instead, along with individual and team score and resources. (We're all in agreement about kill-assists?)
While I appreciate the spirit of the post I don't really see what the point of removing deaths and not kills would be. Deaths are still useful information, especially since score can be changed by buildings built/destroyed, possibly assists, etc.
The Prob still exists, like Crowe mentioned in his first post.
<!--quoteo(post=1672195:date=Mar 5 2008, 04:51 PM:name=Crowe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crowe @ Mar 5 2008, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] Its totally subtracted from teamplay.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deaths and Kills are still a kinda evaluation.
There are players out there saying: "Ha! I have killed 20 marines in their own base while they overran our hive during the last 20 minutes! Im so good!"
OR
"Ha! I died less then 2 times, although our hive has been rushed!"
Why deny my solution?
<!--quoteo(post=1672244:date=Mar 6 2008, 12:43 AM:name=Creaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creaker @ Mar 6 2008, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other side its pretty helpful for the com. He wont give the only HA to a noob-like player with a kill-to-death-ratio of 1:9.
It's okay if he's the only one who may see it, cause its necessary.
IMHO its okay to count the RFK*-deaths for each<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro--> <b>team</b> <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->and show them public.
*RFK = resources from kills<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also play ETQW (Enemy Territory: Quake Wars) and in this "team-game" it's necessary to ignore deaths, cause u really have to rush through artillary fire to reach your goal, while other classes like snipers stay save.(just an example!)
<u>They have also removed public Kills/Deaths!!!!!!!!</u>
But we're saying, have a team's total kills displayed publicly, and possibly individual kills hidden (like in TF2). Remove Death count altogether. Keep individual and team score shown publicly however. That's part of the idea. So then deaths are no longer useful information. You've still got a team's total kills to gauge RFK, and as was said, deaths can be inaccurate in determining RFK anyway.
In summary,
* - Individual/Team
Kills - Public/Public (or Private/Public ?)
Deaths - Remove/Remove
Score - Public/Public
EXCELLENT IDEA
I would be in favor of removing the incentive for (e.g.) 6 skulks to camp the hive when behind the next corridor 2 marines are camping and 1 is building up a siege cannon. Situation like this happened to me countless times - no body wants to run as the first one, because 2 marines would probably kill a skulk, but if he would be followed by 2 others situation would look completely different!
If there would be no individual death count, people wouldn't care about dying that much - by rushing they could only have a chance of getting a frag on the score board nothing else. That's the incentive NS needs.
OFT. If the game's fun, people will want to stay alive. While I still don't think it's that useful to remove the scores, saying that people will not realize they or their teammates are dead because they can't see their death count is a silly argument at best.
<!--quoteo(post=1672435:date=Mar 7 2008, 12:05 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 7 2008, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is afraid to die he should stay in the ready room...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chupacabra said it, they SHOULD stay in RR. He has also told us about situations where removed individual scores can help to succeed!
I have made lots of experiences like that, for example
-marines were ####ing afraid of entering the hive room, while comm ordered hive rush by <b>shouting</b> into his micro => I was the only one running in... unbelievable
-3 Skulks without cara standin for more than a minute around a mined PG....
Yesterday I had a wonderful game:
I and 2 other gorges <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> were non stop-healing the Hive for 10 minutes, while the others tried to destroy 5 sieges.
We gorges didn't die (often), but out there was a massacre! (And yes, i know it was noob-like, but it was exciting!)
<!--quoteo(post=1672405:date=Mar 7 2008, 04:42 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Mar 7 2008, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->remove an incentive to stay alive so even <i>more</i> bad players can clog up the spawn queue
EXCELLENT IDEA<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the first and best argument of keeping Death-counts!
There are quite more reasons, which all together define the will to survive!
I think, atm there are too many reasons to stay alive.
If there are too many reasons, nobody wants to risk anything!
If there are only a few reasons to stay alive (for <b>example</b> no individual scores or a mod with spawntime of 0 or always spawning full equipped in squad at battle front), players wont take care of anything and just keep dieing.
I hope this removing of individual death-count will increase teamwork, but wont decrease the will to survive too much.
Are there any more reasons to keep individual kills/deaths shown publicly???
I guess if you ignore everything else that was said in this topic that's true.
No I think it is the only disadvantage, for every other there are solutions, postet in this treat.
Correct me if I've missed any!
promote straightline skulking down long hallways?
I don't get the logic. Is rushing connected in any way with straightline skulking or long hallways? If you want to try out the vent, go by vent. Try the other exit and ambush the marines from behind. Everything is better than camping the hive hoping that the marines will get bored and go back to base for their afternoon tea-break and / or that the comm doesn't know how to build a siege cannon.
But, let's say that the map looks the way you've described - there's a hive with only one entrance / exit which leads to a long long hallway, which ends with a bunch of marines. Attack <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> ! Use your microphone / in-game chat to coordinate your actions with other aliens. Let the whole team rush at the same time, bunnyhopping like crazy from wall to wall, from floor to the ceiling. Probably most of you gonna die, maybe even all of you will die, bit there is a chance of victory!
Yep, much better to stay at hive and wait to be sieged. That's what NS's all about.
Why should anyone "skulk straightline down long hallways" or just suicide in stupid ways, like rushing as a team of 2 skulks into a group of 3 HA ...etc just because of a removed individual Kill/death-count?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />?
Sure, without individual kill/death count most players will risk more, but i think nobody will become really silly and keep dieing again and again!
Read what I have said about the <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>will to survive</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->!
<!--quoteo(post=1672519:date=Mar 7 2008, 10:45 PM:name=Creaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creaker @ Mar 7 2008, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are quite more reasons, which all together define the will to survive!
I think, atm there are too many reasons to stay alive.
If there are too many reasons, nobody wants to risk anything!
If there are only a few reasons to stay alive (for <b>example</b> no individual scores or a mod with spawntime of 0 or always spawning full equipped in squad at battle front), players wont take care of anything and just keep dieing.
I hope this removing of individual death-count will increase teamwork, but wont decrease the will to survive too much.
Are there any more reasons to keep individual kills/deaths shown publicly???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I've said, players will become more self-confident, but wont jump hopelessly into crowds of marines, because of a removed K/D-Count
Read the threat, here are dozens of exaples!
You can add this to an approximation of their current tech level and number of nodes to understand roughly how advanced their side of the game is.
I don't know that that game element is *needed* per se, but I think I'd miss it if it were removed from NS2 - I guess it could be alright.
*RFK = resources from kills<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just remove individual players deaths, not the entire teams death count.
remove the players deaths and players score, keep the team deaths and team score
BUT:
allow the commander to see all players scores and deaths, this way the commander can decide who deserves weapons and who is more useful.
removing the deaths and scores wont affect the majority of players, because the majority of players play for fun. the people it will affect is the ones who play to get an ego boost and show off their ability to shoot, and what this will do is encourage them to play as a team.
What do <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->you*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> think about the solution, we have figured out?
<!--quoteo(post=1672244:date=Mar 6 2008, 12:43 AM:name=Creaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creaker @ Mar 6 2008, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other side its pretty helpful for the com. He wont give the only HA to a noob-like player with a kill-to-death-ratio of 1:9.
It's okay if he's the only one who may see it, cause its necessary.
IMHO its okay to count the RFK*-deaths for each<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro--> <b>team</b> <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->and show them public.
*RFK = resources from kills<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1672662:date=Mar 9 2008, 06:32 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 9 2008, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about making a server variable? Default off, no individual deaths or frags shown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion thats also a good idea. U mean like a command "mp_individualscores 1"?
I hope not all admins will turn it on.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->who do we have to persuade, who makes the choice of implementing it into NS2 or not?
Do Max and Flayra read the whole forum? Is there any1 who helpes them?
With that said, it still disrupts the understanding of the other team's tech level, and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be favorable for gameplay.
Exacly that is what we are trying to improve! If there will be no <u>individual</u> Kill/death-count, they will be more interested in teamwork, although they could die. Read the examples, posted in this thread
<!--quoteo(post=1672699:date=Mar 9 2008, 04:35 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 9 2008, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With that said, it still disrupts the understanding of the other team's tech level, and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be favorable for gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's wrong, it will not disrupt understanding of the other team's tech lvl, becouse the <!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->team Res-for-Frags<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> or Team Kills/Deaths will be shown publicly, so you dont even have to add/count all kills of each marine. U save calculating time!