You'd have to see every alien separately to estimate the individual rfk, but I don't think that's anything overwhelmingly essential anyway. You can keep the timing quite good as long as you can estimate the rough number of frags a lifeform has.
i think you will find that even with no death count people will still have an incentive to stay alive. Its true that atm the comm can use the death count of a player to decide how much res he wants to waste on him, but if players are buying their own gear in ns2 this isnt such an issue.
IM for not showing individual players their kdr in game, but they shud see their kills and possible detailed stats on them selves at the end of the game.
Another possiblity to is to display ktd stats on squads rather than individuals but this may just cause squad cowardice. I thin team stats do always need to be avliable to give indication of how each team is fairing.
I disagree (with the whole idea). It is unnecessary to remove death count, and it is practically expected to be there by all FPSers. The devs have already tried tinkering with the scoreboard and they had to remove it pretty quickly due to huge uproar. Yes, this is a less drastic tinker, but its still not worth it imo.
Info is info. You can't go removing all the 'bad' info and thinking that it'll fix the sorrow of bad players. And i've never, ever heard a player say 'i wont go kill that PG because it'll ruin my score'. The most ppl will do is go idle or f4 at the end of an already-lost game.
Individual kills are needed for the marines to accurately gauge how much res each alien has. There's a big difference between 12 kills split evenly and 12 kills by a single alien.
I don't think removing the death count is going to help. I'm sure most people aren't going to change their playstyle just because you remove an numerical representation.
Seems to me like somebody is exaggarating the impact of seeing death counts. I refuse to believe there would be so many ego-centric people who care that much about their score. Sounds more like you're exactly like that and try to pin the problem as the rest of the player base's problem, tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=1672765:date=Mar 10 2008, 04:34 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 10 2008, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think removing the death count is going to help. I'm sure most people aren't going to change their playstyle just because you remove an numerical representation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been kinda sceptical about changes like this affecting the alien teamwork, but I've been amazed before by the reasoning people have in these games. Otherwise some of the most popular European servers wouldn't be running xmenu buildmenu co_blackmesa with 5 second spawn prot. You're probably right anyway, it's not going to make any difference.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I refuse to believe there would be so many ego-centric people who care that much about their score.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some people get quite ego-centric in the internet. Still they're probably just a minority. Most likely people are just confused at the gameplay and can't really work as a team because of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1672765:date=Mar 10 2008, 01:34 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 10 2008, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Individual kills are needed for the marines to accurately gauge how much res each alien has. There's a big difference between 12 kills split evenly and 12 kills by a single alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Unified resource model"
<!--quoteo(post=1672769:date=Mar 10 2008, 03:41 PM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ Mar 10 2008, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems to me like somebody is exaggarating the impact of seeing death counts. I refuse to believe there would be so many ego-centric people who care that much about their score. Sounds more like you're exactly like that and try to pin the problem as the rest of the player base's problem, tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And yet, there's less reason not to remove death count.
<!--quoteo(post=1672761:date=Mar 10 2008, 10:24 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 10 2008, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree (with the whole idea). It is unnecessary to remove death count, and it is practically expected to be there by all FPSers. The devs have already tried tinkering with the scoreboard and they had to remove it pretty quickly due to huge uproar. Yes, this is a less drastic tinker, but its still not worth it imo.
Info is info. You can't go removing all the 'bad' info and thinking that it'll fix the sorrow of bad players. And i've never, ever heard a player say 'i wont go kill that PG because it'll ruin my score'. The most ppl will do is go idle or f4 at the end of an already-lost game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They did it with TF2 (or am I just thinking of kills?). To an extent, anyway. And that was a success. I just don't think having a death count as-you-go is any benefit to anyone. I like what someone else suggested - you can have your full stats displayed at the end of the game, including deaths, accuracy, damage dealt, etc. Technically then you're not 'removing' it, you're just 'moving' it. There's no problem then. I think removing kills/deaths as-you-go, but having them at the end of the round, will have you less focused on maintaining your score, but rather more focused on playing well in general, so that you can A) win, and B) have a good score at the end. That's the theory.. And I'm pretty sure a lot of you have said this, but NS isn't a team deathmatch game.
<!--quoteo(post=1672776:date=Mar 10 2008, 01:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 10 2008, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Unified resource model"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't even know what the resource model is yet, let alone whether it will eliminate the need to track individual kills. You can't handwave something away based on an assumption.
Then, let us <b>assume</b> that the unified resource model means that alien resources are shared. <i>(If it isn't the case, then keeping track of individual kills is necessary as you say.)</i> Now, continue...
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1672765:date=Mar 10 2008, 12:34 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 10 2008, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think removing the death count is going to help. I'm sure most people aren't going to change their playstyle just because you remove an numerical representation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's pretty much it. To say this would encourage players to weld or cover each other is just as much of a stretch as saying it would encourage players to run in a straight line. This change may make it in it may not; I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.
I think really the only effect this will have is to discourage new players who only look at their score to see how good they are from playing. Now if that is what we want to do then by all means go ahead.
On the other hand this would alienate a large part of the potential customer base of a first person shooter game - rts element or not.
Unfortunately a larger playerbase usually means a greater chance to get fun games going. On high levels you would have a larger base for recruitment and improvement of players. On lower and casual levels you would have a larger base for recruitment of "regulars" to servers and potential to set up "reg hours" such as the ones being played on the Yo-clan server. It would also mean more money for coffee, cookies and work hours for another game or patches to NS-2.
In conclusion - more players is better, and the proposed idea would have almost no real effect (cosmetics aside) other than reducing the potential customer base.
<!--quoteo(post=1673226:date=Mar 14 2008, 06:19 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 14 2008, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But do you really <b>need</b> a kill to death scoreboard <i>as you're playing the game</i>*? *or 'while you're playing through the middle of a round'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno if you thought of it, but you didn't say your meaning the <b><u>INDIVIDUAL</u></b> Kill/death-Score.
There must be at least a Team Kill/Death-score, <u>if</u> there will be Res-for-Frags in NS2.
I meant individual kills+deaths, yes. And team deaths perhaps (keep team kills for RFK, of course).
<!--quoteo(post=1673309:date=Mar 15 2008, 11:19 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 15 2008, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going off on a tangent, then: There needs to be more reward to winning a round, not just making kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited March 2008
what if there is a global points system which replaces all of the kills and deaths, but includes things like assists, ambushes, team assualts, building stuff, protecting gorges, hives etc... You simply gain 1-5 points for certain tasks, but never lose any for dying.
The person with the highest score would be the person who has done the most during the round, and i'd say that team work would have the biggest impact on score.
So dying infront of the hive = 1 point which is the same for getting a normal kill, but then if 5 skulks attack and kill a marine infront of the hive they each get 3 points. (example)
edit : RTS games always have indepth stats break down at the end of a match, not just how many units you lost or killed.
<!--quoteo(post=1673488:date=Mar 17 2008, 10:42 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Mar 17 2008, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So dying infront of the hive = 1 point which is the same for getting a normal kill, but then if 5 skulks attack and kill a marine infront of the hive they each get 3 points. (example)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yesss, I will have an amazing score while being spawn camped. I win this game.
One common thing that has seemed to be forgotten here is that from an alien and rine perspective the lower skilled players , or if you suck at that map go into a support mode building, healing and welding. On some maps I will be within the top 3 as an alien but on others I am "very poor" so if I'm in the bottom 2 or 3 will usually weld or go gorge and heal/stall the opposition.
I aggree with the stats ruinning the game in some cases as they are now. Far too many people think that their kill ratio is the be all and end all. As a result I do think we should scrap it and replace the entire thing with the following:
The advantage is that this stat mechaism rewards team play and not selfish play. Also you can wieght things like earning double build points for building RT to encourage players to focus on getting the com res.
I say no kill or death counts, instead Damage score + Build score + Aid score = Total score. At certain levels (e.g. every 100 points) you get res.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited March 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1673546:date=Mar 19 2008, 06:49 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 19 2008, 06:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yesss, I will have an amazing score while being spawn camped. I win this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> see the part where it says example? have you ever had one useful, non smart ass comment on this forum?
EDIT : misere, you are right on! thats pretty much what i was trying to say <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Well, domining does have a point. (Being rewarded for being killed is pretty dumb..) Maybe you just need better examples?
<!--quoteo(post=1673573:date=Mar 19 2008, 09:34 AM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Mar 19 2008, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418&st=140" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....3418&st=140</a> I say no kill or death counts, instead Damage score + Build score + Aid score = Total score. At certain levels (e.g. every 100 points) you get res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I mentioned this in that thread, but it doesn't make sense for a marine to get a GL that basically comes out of nowhere - where do the resources spent to get it come from? Welding your own teammates, building your own buildings? That doesn't make sense. Even if you give the marines an earning-system (ie. points/credit whatever), they shouldn't be earning hard currency (ie. res).
*
And I still think you should have a count <b>at the end of the round</b> (or privately, TF2-style) of the number of kills and damage you('ve) inflicted etc. - it's just not important <b>as you're playing</b>.
*I've separated the two separate ideas, just so <b>no one</b>'s confused. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1673595:date=Mar 19 2008, 02:16 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 19 2008, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I mentioned this in that thread, but it doesn't make sense for a marine to get a GL that basically comes out of nowhere - where do the resources spent to get it come from? Welding your own teammates, building your own buildings? That doesn't make sense. Even if you give the marines an earning-system (ie. points/credit whatever), they shouldn't be earning hard currency (ie. res). And I still think you should have a count <b>at the end of the round</b> (or privately, TF2-style) of the number of kills and damage you('ve) inflicted etc. - it's just not important <b>as you're playing</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here you are addressing to seperate issues, though they interact with each other. The first being the original topic thread of kills/deaths being displayed. The second, marines purchasing weapons based on res earned. Res earned and kill/deaths/score do not need to be associated, one doesn't have to govern the other. However, one can do that if they so please.
A.) Your earned points based on a divisor of sorts directly determines personal credits earned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the system that you are addressing? Your concern is that an individual who has welded and built a lot will purchase themself a GL? Not that I think this idea is poor or great, but can't the GL just require a lot of credits to offset its power?
B.) Your earned points determines rank of the score board (regardless of K:D) and personal credits are scored independantly based on a determined set of actions. This makes more sense to me personally. For example: Welding X points of armor awards you 3 points, whereas Welding X+50 earns you 1 personal credit. Or killing a fade awards you 7 points, but only 3 personal credits.
Now, back to the original discussion at hand... to display K:D or not. I feel that, even though there are the "pros" who can't stand to die, displaying a K:D ratio exhibits the attitude that your life is important. If you just run out into the open without thinking, hopefully you'll learn from your mistakes because the evidence is there (K:D). However, the K:D (as it does now), should not determine where you sit on the scoreboard. Whether everyone else should be able to see your K:D, I guess I don't feel one way or the other, though I think it IS important for the commander to see them for decision making reasons. Personal - Yes Others - Don't Know Commander - Everyones
<!--quoteo(post=1673585:date=Mar 18 2008, 10:39 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Mar 18 2008, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->have you ever had one useful, non smart ass comment on this forum?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.
Fortunately, unlike your posts, my posts are generally more fun to read, albeit sometimes long. But who is perfect?
If I can't see my K:D in relation to the rest of my team, how will I know how much I'm carrying by? The competitive nature of video games demands the scoreboard and <u>all</u> stats displayed on it. You can play a sport and not keep a score just because "you are playing for fun". But then you'd have no competitive scene and your sport will die because nobody will bother competing.
The score aspect does work and players are ranked based on their score (even in NS, if you gorge and drop the hive and your fades aren't very effective, you can still be leading the team scorewise), but most of the time (in TF2) you won't be able to discern how long somebody has been on the server for and won't know how you rank in relation to the rest of the players. I don't believe that it is an optimal system because most servers end up adding their own stat plugins anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1673585:date=Mar 18 2008, 09:39 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Mar 18 2008, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->see the part where it says example? have you ever had one useful, non smart ass comment on this forum?
EDIT : misere, you are right on! thats pretty much what i was trying to say <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweet thanks
<!--quoteo(post=1673655:date=Mar 19 2008, 05:02 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 19 2008, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I can't see my K:D in relation to the rest of my team, how will I know how much I'm carrying by? The competitive nature of video games demands the scoreboard and <u>all</u> stats displayed on it. You can play a sport and not keep a score just because "you are playing for fun". But then you'd have no competitive scene and your sport will die because nobody will bother competing.
The score aspect does work and players are ranked based on their score (even in NS, if you gorge and drop the hive and your fades aren't very effective, you can still be leading the team scorewise), but most of the time (in TF2) you won't be able to discern how long somebody has been on the server for and won't know how you rank in relation to the rest of the players. I don't believe that it is an optimal system because most servers end up adding their own stat plugins anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
K, have a few problems here: This pretty much sums up what we are all talking about. Namely this attitude that K:D is the be all and the end all. The guy that phases through and welds the gate for 30 sec’s to keep it alive while the battle rages around him, knowing that he will be taken out within seconds but his death is require FTW, is just as important if not more so, than the player who guards their K:D by shooting from the other side of the room in safely. Unfortunately the current ranking system rewards selfish behaviour and not team biased play which is want NS is about. You maybe “carrying†the team in the K:D front but it was the players who got RT’s for your upgrades and welded you that won the game. Players who don’t weld coz the don’t want to drop their guard or continually kill steal resulting in their team mates getting fragged (and thus having crappy K:D ratios) when that fade could have been killed before it got close are the main ones that want to see their K:D.
I would still <i>like </i> to see my K:D but I would rather have my rank or score determined by other means. If my damage dealt (DD) score was 10,000 and kills 4 vs your DD 5,000 K 20 the COM would know that I'm the more valuable player and your type described above. Since you want to talk sports keep in mind that old sports saying "A champion team will always beat a team of champions". Its also why we have so many STATS for sports like assists in Ice hockey and yards gained in football. Last season Player A scores quite a few goals, more than player B, but Player B’s set up 2/3s of all goals for the entire team so he is <b>MORE VALUABLE</b>.
As for gaining RES for kills vs RES for welds etc. Neither makes sense unless your eating your opponent (or harvesting the bodies etc), as only the onos does that it must just be a game mechanic for balance/fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1673667:date=Mar 19 2008, 07:32 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Mar 19 2008, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->K, have a few problems here: This pretty much sums up what we are all talking about. Namely this attitude that K:D is the be all and the end all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not the be all and the end all. The KD is there to remind me that I still have a spot in a decent team open for me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guy that phases through and welds the gate for 30 sec’s to keep it alive while the battle rages around him, knowing that he will be taken out within seconds but his death is require FTW, is just as important if not more so, than the player who guards their K:D by shooting from the other side of the room in safely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) If you're welding something when you should be shooting something, you are obviously doing something wrong. PROTIP #1: Never weld stuff in combat. B) If a player goes around "rolling" the other team, he will probably assume that someone who doesn't have the option of "rolling" the other team will take care of the more mundane stuff. E.G. welding phase gates. I mean, you have a 40 ton excavator and a garden spade. Which would you use for what task?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately the current ranking system rewards selfish behaviour and not team biased play which is want NS is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean that you don't get points for building res nodes as an alien or killing alien structures as a marine?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You maybe “carrying†the team in the K:D front but it was the players who got RT’s for your upgrades and welded you that won the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree.
A) Lets say you can achieve a reasonable score of 1:1. You go to build nodes.
Case1: You meet an alien, you kill it. You meet a second alien, it kills you. Congratulations, you've got absolutely nothing done for the team! You are 100% worthless and the commander gives you a gold star for not building the node you were supposed to build. (The game plays out and I rage at you for about 10 minutes and then we end up losing because nobody can hit any amount of pellets at fades with w2 shotguns) Case2: You don't meet any aliens because aliens are too busy being killed by the guy who is where he is needed most (blocking aliens from getting to you), you build the node and get a purple heart for being such an ace and having the patience to hold down your use key for so long. Then you go to post on the forums about how much of an ace you really are and how those pesky "good players" do absolutely nothing for the team.
B) Good players know how to weld teammates and the importance of staying welded and all of the tips and tricks associated with it, bad players have absolutely no clue and will never even think about welding. Its the good players that end up carrying on the scoreboard, so points go where they are needed to go.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Players who don’t weld coz the don’t want to drop their guard or continually kill steal resulting in their team mates getting fragged (and thus having crappy K:D ratios) when that fade could have been killed before it got close are the main ones that want to see their K:D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never experienced this. Of course, I don't know what ghettos of the NS community you come from, but the only people I don't weld when I have a welder are the aliens. Also, all of my friends do the same.
About kill stealing: assist kills ARE NEEDED. I'm sick and tired of MC stealing my god damn skulks because every skulk ends up trying to bite him first and MC ends up getting more bullets into skulks because of proximity. /rage
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would still <i>like </i> to see my K:D but I would rather have my rank or score determined by other means. If my damage dealt (DD) score was 10,000 and kills 4 vs your DD 5,000 K 20 the COM would know that I'm the more valuable player and your type described above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would you deal more damage than the player who outkills you by so much? Rubbish.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you want to talk sports keep in mind that old sports saying "A champion team will always beat a team of champions".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A champion team you are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its also why we have so many STATS for sports like assists in Ice hockey and yards gained in football. Last season Player A scores quite a few goals, more than player B, but Player B’s set up 2/3s of all goals for the entire team so he is <b>MORE VALUABLE</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Goals and assists =!= Kills on aliens and RT building. Not even close. Its more like Goals + Assists vs some baddie goalie in an amazing team, which is carried by one aggressive player, just sitting and chilling while only touching the puck once or twice the whole game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for gaining RES for kills vs RES for welds etc. Neither makes sense unless your eating your opponent (or harvesting the bodies etc), as only the onos does that it must just be a game mechanic for balance/fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can get <b>points</b> which you can then spend on *STUFF*.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited March 2008
summing up - there is no "K:D" in "team" lol <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
in my supposably bad example, the skulk isnt gaining a point for dying, its gaining a point for defending the hive, just be cause it was shot by a marine doesn't mean it wasnt defending. why should you lose a point just because you are the only person on your trying to stop the hive from being invaded.
<!--quoteo(post=1673615:date=Mar 20 2008, 12:33 AM:name=Cataclyzm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cataclyzm @ Mar 20 2008, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here you are addressing to seperate issues, though they interact with each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That wasn't my intention, I assure you.
<!--quoteo(post=1673615:date=Mar 20 2008, 12:33 AM:name=Cataclyzm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cataclyzm @ Mar 20 2008, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A.) Your earned points based on a divisor of sorts directly determines personal credits earned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the system that you are addressing? Your concern is that an individual who has welded and built a lot will purchase themself a GL? Not that I think this idea is poor or great, but can't the GL just require a lot of credits to offset its power?
B.) Your earned points determines rank of the score board (regardless of K:D) and personal credits are scored independantly based on a determined set of actions. This makes more sense to me personally. For example: Welding X points of armor awards you 3 points, whereas Welding X+50 earns you 1 personal credit. Or killing a fade awards you 7 points, but only 3 personal credits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. I don't mind if points = credits or not. What I am against is the suggestion to have, instead of credits <i>{that represent a [non-reserved] portion of the team's pool}</i>, having personal res; however, that's not the issue I brought up. What I was addressing was the issue of how you earn res, the idea that, you do a lot of welding, you earn points/credits, sure; but you shouldn't get res for it because then it basically comes out of nowhere. You (the team) should only earn res from kills made and towers.
Think of it this way. In NS: If <b>your team</b> get res from towers, then of course that's alright. If <b>your team</b> gets res from aliens that the team's <i>members</i> have killed, that's fine too (of course there's still a debate over this, but let's ignore that for a moment). But would it make sense for <b>your team</b> to get res for its <i>members</i> building and welding?
-
@ Domining: You make a good point about the nature of the competitive scene. However, it <b>is</b> a team game, so why exactly are you competing with your teammates? And that's a very idealistic attitude, I know; and I'm not sure I completely agree with it. But there are a lot of idealists here, and it's a valid point.
You are straying horribly off-topic. This is a discussion about removing the K:D function from the scoreboard, remember.
<!--quoteo(post=1673707:date=Mar 20 2008, 05:29 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 20 2008, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ Domining: You make a good point about the nature of the competitive scene. However, it <b>is</b> a team game, so why exactly are you competing with your teammates? And that's a very idealistic attitude, I know; and I'm not sure I completely agree with it. But there are a lot of idealists here, and it's a valid point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you don't believe that you can have both competition and teamwork within one team? You're still playing the same game, you're just looking at the scores to see if you're doing better than the rest of the players on your team for the much needed ego-boost (reward).
On another note: I'm starting to have doubts if I'm on the right forums here. The last Natural Selection I played there was only one set of victory conditions and they are as follows: kill the enemy team and destroy his means of spawning. There was no set of diplomatic victory conditions in which players had to heroically die inside of the hive, plant flowers or win through making everything look shiny by welding it. There are two teams in natural selection, and they are trying to destroy each other. Fighting the other team should be emphasized for this exact reason and players should be entitled to know how well their team is accomplishing this objective.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1673679:date=Mar 19 2008, 09:47 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 19 2008, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not the be all and the end all. The KD is there to remind me that I still have a spot in a decent team open for me. A) If you're welding something when you should be shooting something, you are obviously doing something wrong. PROTIP #1: Never weld stuff in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you have someone covering you and you're welding a near dead phasegate, then you're doing your job. Same if you're building that phasegate or sieges or anything else. You both have your roles and you're both equally important, if either one fails at their job you lose that position. <!--quoteo(post=1673679:date=Mar 19 2008, 09:47 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 19 2008, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) Lets say you can achieve a reasonable score of 1:1. You go to build nodes.
Case1: You meet an alien, you kill it. You meet a second alien, it kills you. Congratulations, you've got absolutely nothing done for the team! You are 100% worthless and the commander gives you a gold star for not building the node you were supposed to build. (The game plays out and I rage at you for about 10 minutes and then we end up losing because nobody can hit any amount of pellets at fades with w2 shotguns) Case2: You don't meet any aliens because aliens are too busy being killed by the guy who is where he is needed most (blocking aliens from getting to you), you build the node and get a purple heart for being such an ace and having the patience to hold down your use key for so long. Then you go to post on the forums about how much of an ace you really are and how those pesky "good players" do absolutely nothing for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Case three: You meet one alien, kill it, finish building the node and die to the next alien. Net gain for the marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=1673734:date=Mar 20 2008, 12:58 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 20 2008, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have someone covering you and you're welding a near dead phasegate, then you're doing your job. Same if you're building that phasegate or sieges or anything else. You both have your roles and you're both equally important, if either one fails at their job you lose that position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) - >>secure area<< 2) - >>weld stuff<<
Building sieges works differently because you usually have all 5 players there and you can afford to use team capping for building instead of shooting..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Case three: You meet one alien, kill it, finish building the node and die to the next alien. Net gain for the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A net gain of 2 res doesn't justify itself. Marines that go 1:1 against skulks can't really win a game.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1673744:date=Mar 20 2008, 02:12 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) - >>secure area<< 2) - >>weld stuff<<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No contested area is "secure" against a good alien team. If you're welding and your teammate is covering, the teammate who is covering should get the kill of any skulk that shows up. <!--quoteo(post=1673744:date=Mar 20 2008, 02:12 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A net gain of 2 res doesn't justify itself. Marines that go 1:1 against skulks can't really win a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1:1 marines do win games because they're the ones capping welding and building. You need your pressure team making kills and your capping team building to win the game. An entire team 1:1 against skulks signifies a larger problem of teammates not covering each other.
Comments
Edit. Oh well, forgot about the ns2 res model.
IM for not showing individual players their kdr in game, but they shud see their kills and possible detailed stats on them selves at the end of the game.
Another possiblity to is to display ktd stats on squads rather than individuals but this may just cause squad cowardice. I thin team stats do always need to be avliable to give indication of how each team is fairing.
Info is info. You can't go removing all the 'bad' info and thinking that it'll fix the sorrow of bad players. And i've never, ever heard a player say 'i wont go kill that PG because it'll ruin my score'. The most ppl will do is go idle or f4 at the end of an already-lost game.
I don't think removing the death count is going to help. I'm sure most people aren't going to change their playstyle just because you remove an numerical representation.
I've been kinda sceptical about changes like this affecting the alien teamwork, but I've been amazed before by the reasoning people have in these games. Otherwise some of the most popular European servers wouldn't be running xmenu buildmenu co_blackmesa with 5 second spawn prot. You're probably right anyway, it's not going to make any difference.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I refuse to believe there would be so many ego-centric people who care that much about their score.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people get quite ego-centric in the internet. Still they're probably just a minority. Most likely people are just confused at the gameplay and can't really work as a team because of that.
"Unified resource model"
<!--quoteo(post=1672769:date=Mar 10 2008, 03:41 PM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ Mar 10 2008, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems to me like somebody is exaggarating the impact of seeing death counts. I refuse to believe there would be so many ego-centric people who care that much about their score. Sounds more like you're exactly like that and try to pin the problem as the rest of the player base's problem, tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet, there's less reason not to remove death count.
<!--quoteo(post=1672761:date=Mar 10 2008, 10:24 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 10 2008, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree (with the whole idea). It is unnecessary to remove death count, and it is practically expected to be there by all FPSers. The devs have already tried tinkering with the scoreboard and they had to remove it pretty quickly due to huge uproar. Yes, this is a less drastic tinker, but its still not worth it imo.
Info is info. You can't go removing all the 'bad' info and thinking that it'll fix the sorrow of bad players. And i've never, ever heard a player say 'i wont go kill that PG because it'll ruin my score'. The most ppl will do is go idle or f4 at the end of an already-lost game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They did it with TF2 (or am I just thinking of kills?). To an extent, anyway. And that was a success.
I just don't think having a death count as-you-go is any benefit to anyone. I like what someone else suggested - you can have your full stats displayed at the end of the game, including deaths, accuracy, damage dealt, etc. Technically then you're not 'removing' it, you're just 'moving' it. There's no problem then.
I think removing kills/deaths as-you-go, but having them at the end of the round, will have you less focused on maintaining your score, but rather more focused on playing well in general, so that you can A) win, and B) have a good score at the end. That's the theory..
And I'm pretty sure a lot of you have said this, but NS isn't a team deathmatch game.
You don't even know what the resource model is yet, let alone whether it will eliminate the need to track individual kills. You can't handwave something away based on an assumption.
That's pretty much it. To say this would encourage players to weld or cover each other is just as much of a stretch as saying it would encourage players to run in a straight line. This change may make it in it may not; I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.
On the other hand this would alienate a large part of the potential customer base of a first person shooter game - rts element or not.
Unfortunately a larger playerbase usually means a greater chance to get fun games going. On high levels you would have a larger base for recruitment and improvement of players. On lower and casual levels you would have a larger base for recruitment of "regulars" to servers and potential to set up "reg hours" such as the ones being played on the Yo-clan server. It would also mean more money for coffee, cookies and work hours for another game or patches to NS-2.
In conclusion - more players is better, and the proposed idea would have almost no real effect (cosmetics aside) other than reducing the potential customer base.
*or 'while you're playing through the middle of a round'
*or 'while you're playing through the middle of a round'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno if you thought of it, but you didn't say your meaning the <b><u>INDIVIDUAL</u></b> Kill/death-Score.
There must be at least a Team Kill/Death-score, <u>if</u> there will be Res-for-Frags in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1673309:date=Mar 15 2008, 11:19 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 15 2008, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going off on a tangent, then: There needs to be more reward to winning a round, not just making kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You simply gain 1-5 points for certain tasks, but never lose any for dying.
The person with the highest score would be the person who has done the most during the round, and i'd say that team work would have the biggest impact on score.
So dying infront of the hive = 1 point which is the same for getting a normal kill, but then if 5 skulks attack and kill a marine infront of the hive they each get 3 points. (example)
edit : RTS games always have indepth stats break down at the end of a match, not just how many units you lost or killed.
Yesss, I will have an amazing score while being spawn camped. I win this game.
On some maps I will be within the top 3 as an alien but on others I am "very poor" so if I'm in the bottom 2 or 3 will usually weld or go gorge and heal/stall the opposition.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418&st=140" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....3418&st=140</a>
The advantage is that this stat mechaism rewards team play and not selfish play. Also you can wieght things like earning double build points for building RT to encourage players to focus on getting the com res.
I say no kill or death counts, instead Damage score + Build score + Aid score = Total score. At certain levels (e.g. every 100 points) you get res.
see the part where it says example?
have you ever had one useful, non smart ass comment on this forum?
EDIT : misere, you are right on! thats pretty much what i was trying to say <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1673573:date=Mar 19 2008, 09:34 AM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Mar 19 2008, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418&st=140" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....3418&st=140</a>
I say no kill or death counts, instead Damage score + Build score + Aid score = Total score. At certain levels (e.g. every 100 points) you get res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I mentioned this in that thread, but it doesn't make sense for a marine to get a GL that basically comes out of nowhere - where do the resources spent to get it come from? Welding your own teammates, building your own buildings? That doesn't make sense. Even if you give the marines an earning-system (ie. points/credit whatever), they shouldn't be earning hard currency (ie. res).
*
And I still think you should have a count <b>at the end of the round</b> (or privately, TF2-style) of the number of kills and damage you('ve) inflicted etc. - it's just not important <b>as you're playing</b>.
*I've separated the two separate ideas, just so <b>no one</b>'s confused. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
And I still think you should have a count <b>at the end of the round</b> (or privately, TF2-style) of the number of kills and damage you('ve) inflicted etc. - it's just not important <b>as you're playing</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here you are addressing to seperate issues, though they interact with each other.
The first being the original topic thread of kills/deaths being displayed. The second, marines purchasing weapons based on res earned.
Res earned and kill/deaths/score do not need to be associated, one doesn't have to govern the other. However, one can do that if they so please.
A.) Your earned points based on a divisor of sorts directly determines personal credits earned.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the system that you are addressing? Your concern is that an individual who has welded and built a lot will purchase themself a GL? Not that I think this idea is poor or great, but can't the GL just require a lot of credits to offset its power?
B.) Your earned points determines rank of the score board (regardless of K:D) and personal credits are scored independantly based on a determined set of actions.
This makes more sense to me personally. For example: Welding X points of armor awards you 3 points, whereas Welding X+50 earns you 1 personal credit. Or killing a fade awards you 7 points, but only 3 personal credits.
Now, back to the original discussion at hand... to display K:D or not. I feel that, even though there are the "pros" who can't stand to die, displaying a K:D ratio exhibits the attitude that your life is important. If you just run out into the open without thinking, hopefully you'll learn from your mistakes because the evidence is there (K:D). However, the K:D (as it does now), should not determine where you sit on the scoreboard.
Whether everyone else should be able to see your K:D, I guess I don't feel one way or the other, though I think it IS important for the commander to see them for decision making reasons.
Personal - Yes
Others - Don't Know
Commander - Everyones
Yes.
Fortunately, unlike your posts, my posts are generally more fun to read, albeit sometimes long. But who is perfect?
If I can't see my K:D in relation to the rest of my team, how will I know how much I'm carrying by? The competitive nature of video games demands the scoreboard and <u>all</u> stats displayed on it. You can play a sport and not keep a score just because "you are playing for fun". But then you'd have no competitive scene and your sport will die because nobody will bother competing.
The score aspect does work and players are ranked based on their score (even in NS, if you gorge and drop the hive and your fades aren't very effective, you can still be leading the team scorewise), but most of the time (in TF2) you won't be able to discern how long somebody has been on the server for and won't know how you rank in relation to the rest of the players. I don't believe that it is an optimal system because most servers end up adding their own stat plugins anyway.
have you ever had one useful, non smart ass comment on this forum?
EDIT : misere, you are right on! thats pretty much what i was trying to say <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweet thanks
<!--quoteo(post=1673655:date=Mar 19 2008, 05:02 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 19 2008, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I can't see my K:D in relation to the rest of my team, how will I know how much I'm carrying by? The competitive nature of video games demands the scoreboard and <u>all</u> stats displayed on it. You can play a sport and not keep a score just because "you are playing for fun". But then you'd have no competitive scene and your sport will die because nobody will bother competing.
The score aspect does work and players are ranked based on their score (even in NS, if you gorge and drop the hive and your fades aren't very effective, you can still be leading the team scorewise), but most of the time (in TF2) you won't be able to discern how long somebody has been on the server for and won't know how you rank in relation to the rest of the players. I don't believe that it is an optimal system because most servers end up adding their own stat plugins anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
K, have a few problems here: This pretty much sums up what we are all talking about. Namely this attitude that K:D is the be all and the end all. The guy that phases through and welds the gate for 30 sec’s to keep it alive while the battle rages around him, knowing that he will be taken out within seconds but his death is require FTW, is just as important if not more so, than the player who guards their K:D by shooting from the other side of the room in safely. Unfortunately the current ranking system rewards selfish behaviour and not team biased play which is want NS is about. You maybe “carrying†the team in the K:D front but it was the players who got RT’s for your upgrades and welded you that won the game. Players who don’t weld coz the don’t want to drop their guard or continually kill steal resulting in their team mates getting fragged (and thus having crappy K:D ratios) when that fade could have been killed before it got close are the main ones that want to see their K:D.
I would still <i>like </i> to see my K:D but I would rather have my rank or score determined by other means. If my damage dealt (DD) score was 10,000 and kills 4 vs your DD 5,000 K 20 the COM would know that I'm the more valuable player and your type described above. Since you want to talk sports keep in mind that old sports saying "A champion team will always beat a team of champions". Its also why we have so many STATS for sports like assists in Ice hockey and yards gained in football. Last season Player A scores quite a few goals, more than player B, but Player B’s set up 2/3s of all goals for the entire team so he is <b>MORE VALUABLE</b>.
As for gaining RES for kills vs RES for welds etc. Neither makes sense unless your eating your opponent (or harvesting the bodies etc), as only the onos does that it must just be a game mechanic for balance/fun.
Its not the be all and the end all. The KD is there to remind me that I still have a spot in a decent team open for me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guy that phases through and welds the gate for 30 sec’s to keep it alive while the battle rages around him, knowing that he will be taken out within seconds but his death is require FTW, is just as important if not more so, than the player who guards their K:D by shooting from the other side of the room in safely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) If you're welding something when you should be shooting something, you are obviously doing something wrong. PROTIP #1: Never weld stuff in combat.
B) If a player goes around "rolling" the other team, he will probably assume that someone who doesn't have the option of "rolling" the other team will take care of the more mundane stuff. E.G. welding phase gates. I mean, you have a 40 ton excavator and a garden spade. Which would you use for what task?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately the current ranking system rewards selfish behaviour and not team biased play which is want NS is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean that you don't get points for building res nodes as an alien or killing alien structures as a marine?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You maybe “carrying†the team in the K:D front but it was the players who got RT’s for your upgrades and welded you that won the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree.
A) Lets say you can achieve a reasonable score of 1:1. You go to build nodes.
Case1: You meet an alien, you kill it. You meet a second alien, it kills you. Congratulations, you've got absolutely nothing done for the team! You are 100% worthless and the commander gives you a gold star for not building the node you were supposed to build. (The game plays out and I rage at you for about 10 minutes and then we end up losing because nobody can hit any amount of pellets at fades with w2 shotguns)
Case2: You don't meet any aliens because aliens are too busy being killed by the guy who is where he is needed most (blocking aliens from getting to you), you build the node and get a purple heart for being such an ace and having the patience to hold down your use key for so long. Then you go to post on the forums about how much of an ace you really are and how those pesky "good players" do absolutely nothing for the team.
B) Good players know how to weld teammates and the importance of staying welded and all of the tips and tricks associated with it, bad players have absolutely no clue and will never even think about welding. Its the good players that end up carrying on the scoreboard, so points go where they are needed to go.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Players who don’t weld coz the don’t want to drop their guard or continually kill steal resulting in their team mates getting fragged (and thus having crappy K:D ratios) when that fade could have been killed before it got close are the main ones that want to see their K:D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never experienced this. Of course, I don't know what ghettos of the NS community you come from, but the only people I don't weld when I have a welder are the aliens. Also, all of my friends do the same.
About kill stealing: assist kills ARE NEEDED. I'm sick and tired of MC stealing my god damn skulks because every skulk ends up trying to bite him first and MC ends up getting more bullets into skulks because of proximity. /rage
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would still <i>like </i> to see my K:D but I would rather have my rank or score determined by other means. If my damage dealt (DD) score was 10,000 and kills 4 vs your DD 5,000 K 20 the COM would know that I'm the more valuable player and your type described above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would you deal more damage than the player who outkills you by so much? Rubbish.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you want to talk sports keep in mind that old sports saying "A champion team will always beat a team of champions".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A champion team you are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its also why we have so many STATS for sports like assists in Ice hockey and yards gained in football. Last season Player A scores quite a few goals, more than player B, but Player B’s set up 2/3s of all goals for the entire team so he is <b>MORE VALUABLE</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Goals and assists =!= Kills on aliens and RT building. Not even close. Its more like Goals + Assists vs some baddie goalie in an amazing team, which is carried by one aggressive player, just sitting and chilling while only touching the puck once or twice the whole game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for gaining RES for kills vs RES for welds etc. Neither makes sense unless your eating your opponent (or harvesting the bodies etc), as only the onos does that it must just be a game mechanic for balance/fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get <b>points</b> which you can then spend on *STUFF*.
in my supposably bad example, the skulk isnt gaining a point for dying, its gaining a point for defending the hive, just be cause it was shot by a marine doesn't mean it wasnt defending. why should you lose a point just because you are the only person on your trying to stop the hive from being invaded.
That wasn't my intention, I assure you.
<!--quoteo(post=1673615:date=Mar 20 2008, 12:33 AM:name=Cataclyzm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cataclyzm @ Mar 20 2008, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A.) Your earned points based on a divisor of sorts directly determines personal credits earned.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the system that you are addressing? Your concern is that an individual who has welded and built a lot will purchase themself a GL? Not that I think this idea is poor or great, but can't the GL just require a lot of credits to offset its power?
B.) Your earned points determines rank of the score board (regardless of K:D) and personal credits are scored independantly based on a determined set of actions.
This makes more sense to me personally. For example: Welding X points of armor awards you 3 points, whereas Welding X+50 earns you 1 personal credit. Or killing a fade awards you 7 points, but only 3 personal credits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I don't mind if points = credits or not. What I am against is the suggestion to have, instead of credits <i>{that represent a [non-reserved] portion of the team's pool}</i>, having personal res; however, that's not the issue I brought up. What I was addressing was the issue of how you earn res, the idea that, you do a lot of welding, you earn points/credits, sure; but you shouldn't get res for it because then it basically comes out of nowhere. You (the team) should only earn res from kills made and towers.
Think of it this way. In NS: If <b>your team</b> get res from towers, then of course that's alright. If <b>your team</b> gets res from aliens that the team's <i>members</i> have killed, that's fine too (of course there's still a debate over this, but let's ignore that for a moment). But would it make sense for <b>your team</b> to get res for its <i>members</i> building and welding?
-
@ Domining: You make a good point about the nature of the competitive scene. However, it <b>is</b> a team game, so why exactly are you competing with your teammates? And that's a very idealistic attitude, I know; and I'm not sure I completely agree with it. But there are a lot of idealists here, and it's a valid point.
Also, kill assists ftw.
<!--quoteo(post=1673707:date=Mar 20 2008, 05:29 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 20 2008, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ Domining: You make a good point about the nature of the competitive scene. However, it <b>is</b> a team game, so why exactly are you competing with your teammates? And that's a very idealistic attitude, I know; and I'm not sure I completely agree with it. But there are a lot of idealists here, and it's a valid point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you don't believe that you can have both competition and teamwork within one team? You're still playing the same game, you're just looking at the scores to see if you're doing better than the rest of the players on your team for the much needed ego-boost (reward).
On another note: I'm starting to have doubts if I'm on the right forums here. The last Natural Selection I played there was only one set of victory conditions and they are as follows: kill the enemy team and destroy his means of spawning. There was no set of diplomatic victory conditions in which players had to heroically die inside of the hive, plant flowers or win through making everything look shiny by welding it. There are two teams in natural selection, and they are trying to destroy each other. Fighting the other team should be emphasized for this exact reason and players should be entitled to know how well their team is accomplishing this objective.
A) If you're welding something when you should be shooting something, you are obviously doing something wrong. PROTIP #1: Never weld stuff in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have someone covering you and you're welding a near dead phasegate, then you're doing your job. Same if you're building that phasegate or sieges or anything else. You both have your roles and you're both equally important, if either one fails at their job you lose that position.
<!--quoteo(post=1673679:date=Mar 19 2008, 09:47 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 19 2008, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) Lets say you can achieve a reasonable score of 1:1. You go to build nodes.
Case1: You meet an alien, you kill it. You meet a second alien, it kills you. Congratulations, you've got absolutely nothing done for the team! You are 100% worthless and the commander gives you a gold star for not building the node you were supposed to build. (The game plays out and I rage at you for about 10 minutes and then we end up losing because nobody can hit any amount of pellets at fades with w2 shotguns)
Case2: You don't meet any aliens because aliens are too busy being killed by the guy who is where he is needed most (blocking aliens from getting to you), you build the node and get a purple heart for being such an ace and having the patience to hold down your use key for so long. Then you go to post on the forums about how much of an ace you really are and how those pesky "good players" do absolutely nothing for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Case three: You meet one alien, kill it, finish building the node and die to the next alien. Net gain for the marine team.
1) - >>secure area<<
2) - >>weld stuff<<
Building sieges works differently because you usually have all 5 players there and you can afford to use team capping for building instead of shooting..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Case three: You meet one alien, kill it, finish building the node and die to the next alien. Net gain for the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A net gain of 2 res doesn't justify itself. Marines that go 1:1 against skulks can't really win a game.
2) - >>weld stuff<<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No contested area is "secure" against a good alien team. If you're welding and your teammate is covering, the teammate who is covering should get the kill of any skulk that shows up.
<!--quoteo(post=1673744:date=Mar 20 2008, 02:12 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A net gain of 2 res doesn't justify itself. Marines that go 1:1 against skulks can't really win a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1:1 marines do win games because they're the ones capping welding and building. You need your pressure team making kills and your capping team building to win the game. An entire team 1:1 against skulks signifies a larger problem of teammates not covering each other.