Remove RTs (in a sense)
Domining
Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Members
Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Members
NS has the option of being much more strategic, balanced and less boring by removing the 9 nodes or so found in regular NS maps with 4 solid "resource clusters". So expansion would work the same way as in star craft. Each side would have one natural expansion located close to start and one expansion located towards the center of the map, but slightly off to the side. Deciding to take up an expansion should be a costly endeavor. (and it shouldn't come with any protection) It should be perfectly reasonable to play a decent game without expanding once.
This is by far the most controversial idea I've suggested, but also the best. Discuss.
This is by far the most controversial idea I've suggested, but also the best. Discuss.
Comments
As far as i can tell u are suggesting that teams will have to take risks and make more choices about which areas of the map the choose to occupy after they have set up their base and made an inital expansion.
If this creates more tactical variety and more tactial debate with viable options im pro. On most ns1 maps in my experience there arnt so many choices, there are usually 3 or more points that the team should take asap , double, hives chocke points , and as many res nodes as possible. If there is a choice its double first or second hive. If teams had to focus their energies on one or the other disions it oculd create a more varied game with different strategys
In a public, nobody ever goes gorge cause theyre either new, or selfish and want to evolve offensively
You find the times you actually do go gorge, your team do really well, you build a hive and res towers but nobody else ever contributes and by the time you've spent the game waiting for resources, its over as fades are in their base.
I think RTs should be buildable by skulks, to ensure every alien places one as they go by an empty node (how do clan matches usually go? do aliens ALL go gorge and get a res node usually?) This would enhance public play...
I think its the same for hive as well, i'll spend my entire game waiting for resources after building an RT to get the hive down, and by the time i've done that, the game is pretty much won and it's just not worth spending the entire game in boredom whilst nobody contributes.
What if aliens evolved over time, a little like combat with levels but instead... start off with a skulk who evolves to gain building powers, who can also evolve to gain hind legs for quicker moving, evolve to be larger built(onos) for more health etc <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Another idea i had, how about instead of chambers (again remove the gorge) have dynamic infestation. Instead have it so the further into the map the infestation grows, the further the power of the chambers reaches the player sooo say. At the start of the game, the infestation starts in the base and the power is only available near the base but towards end game, the infestation starts to move further into the map and provide a longer reach of chamber power
As far as i can tell u are suggesting that teams will have to take risks and make more choices about which areas of the map the choose to occupy after they have set up their base and made an inital expansion.
If this creates more tactical variety and more tactial debate with viable options im pro. On most ns1 maps in my experience there arnt so many choices, there are usually 3 or more points that the team should take asap , double, hives chocke points , and as many res nodes as possible. If there is a choice its double first or second hive. If teams had to focus their energies on one or the other disions it oculd create a more varied game with different strategys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
starcraft is a rts game where there are 3 factions battling for univercial dominance. and you expand toy resource points throughout the game and build on them and have stuff harvest the resource points you get gas and energy i think(havent played in a while)
<!--quoteo(post=1674146:date=Mar 24 2008, 06:19 PM:name=intellix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(intellix @ Mar 24 2008, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dynamic infestation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is what I was thinking.
Instead of building the resource expansions, the alien team would have dynamic infestation grow over the spots and generate hive structures on the expansions themselves automatically. The alien team would help the infestation spread through some game mechanic.
Here is a part of the SC map LOLST TAMPEL.
<img src="http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc15/Domining/lolsttempel.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Each side would start on point 1 and continue from there. (ignore the high/low ground for the purpose of NS2) The little blue thingies by the numbers are mineral chunks which give you minerals in SC. These can be safely ignored for NS2 because I still want to see mining done by structures instead of peons.
So here is how I see it work:
<b>Aliens:</b>
For aliens, there are only two resources and those are time and hives (which would speed up upgrades). Aliens don't really need more than one hive because all upgrades are eventually unlocked, but they are unlocked faster with the presence of more than one hive. If a marine team has an expansion, the alien team also needs to seek one or they will fall behind and the marines will severely outtech/overpower them.
To clarify on the alien upgrade system:
Aliens get resource points which they can spend on permanent upgrades (even if aliens die, they will keep their upgrades) or they can invest in the extremely more powerful, but lost when dead life form upgrades. So for 50 res, a skulk can get leap, celerity and a 3rd ability or it can go fade and hope it gets enough RFK/does enough good to the team to pay off for its risk.
<b>Marines:</b>
You can treat weapons as units in a game of NS. Every marine expansion would provide individual marines with a slow but steady trickle of res, RFK is also awarded independently. A commander can unlock weapon tech through research/teching up the building tree. So in essence, getting an expansion would let you produce more units and get better tech, but you have to pay for it first. The cost of an expansion should be substantial so marines with an expo fighting aliens without one would be fighting an uphill battle for quite a while. While they have to pressure the alien expansions because they are natural and free for aliens. (go DI)
How it would play out:
Marines start fighting the aliens in order to slow the spread of DI and prevent them from getting an expansion. Kills are gotten, 1/2 of the team is armed with shotguns. (A quarter lose those shotguns to leap skulks, weapons are lost permanently in NS2) Suddenly, the marine commander sees that he cannot really push the alien DI away anymore so he decides to take his natural expo and turtle until he gets some decent equipment out to his marines. The aliens can now either shift all focus towards attacking the marines or helping spread the DI (in which case the marines are on offense again) towards their next hive expo. The aliens manage to get the 3rd hive up, but the marines are still in the game and on the offense. But aliens have better fades and take yet another hive to bring them up to 4. Marines are now rolled because they have to fight 20 fully upgraded flying onii with w3 fists basically.
Edit: I didn't see this when I posted, but this is brilliant:
Marine upgrades which are permanent and are handled by the commander = alien upgrades which are permanent and are handled by individual players.
Marine equipment = alien life forms.
<!--quoteo(post=1674130:date=Mar 24 2008, 04:24 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 24 2008, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Starcraft is a great game, but expanding in NS and SC are completely different, and not to NS's detriment. In NS you need to expand, and right away. You can't hold off on taking your "naturals". This is done for the benefit of the FPS side, forcing the players into conflict as soon as possible.
Using your analogy{ of naturals in starcraft}, each rt near the marine start is currently a natural expansion. Making one of those have a res bonus doesn't really add any strategy depth to the game, and in fact decreases it because the strategic depth of NS comes from where to expand, not when to expand like starcraft.
If marines or aliens could hold off on expanding like in SC it would add a strategic element to the game, but at the cost of FPS gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1674152:date=Mar 24 2008, 07:28 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 24 2008, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1674140:date=Mar 24 2008, 05:45 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 24 2008, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Also, how would this sacrifice FPS gameplay? If you're talking about what I think you're talking about then NS already does sacrifice FPS gameplay simply because there are better weapons and more powerful life forms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a line. Being a marine patrolling an empty area because the two teams are building up forces on either side is boring. Getting an armor 1 upgrade sucks a little for the para biting skulk but it doesn't make him useless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having more Base ideas is what NS1 didnt really have, the ability to build multiable bases wasnt a good idea, they simply put a TF and PG down to defend a hive spot and left, most of the areas were too cramp to start an actuall 2nd base. Makeing more areas good for starting a second base should be fully explored, making expansion slightly more fun. The humans can start more bases at key spots to hold the aliens off, each spot should have a node near it, or multi nodes. This will pop out more ideals on how the base should grow, and where the humans choose for strategic ideas
Starcraft had good ideals but still needed many things fixed. Im just throwing it out, y not make you have to have a pipe/line to another building, like a harvester? any1 wanna expand on that?
The flying, laser shooting, plasma breahing, heat vision, nuke stomping onos was a parallel for an ultra powerful game ending unit which you'd buy if you had an unlimited supply of res.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit:
There is a line. Being a marine patrolling an empty area because the two teams are building up forces on either side is boring. Getting an armor 1 upgrade sucks a little for the para biting skulk but it doesn't make him useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you'd never patrol because you'd be fighting aliens who are spreading their "free" DI. Read my post plax.
So either you've given the marines the ability to turtle(sounds fun) or you've recreated NS with fewer hives and res nodes to expand to.
It's a good idea, gives a better sense of multiple bases and such, the problem I run into is that NS is a FPS first and foremost. So, the organic nature of the maps and controlling different areas lends itself to the current RT system.
If you watch pro StarCraft games, you realize most of the action occurs outside the base, unless the opponent is taking the base down. This game style makes it bases on each side and units clashing in the middle, trying to gain a slight numerical advantage until you can finally overwhelm your opponent. This doesn't work for a FPS because then it becomes base on either side and battlefield in the middle with no gains in the middle except numerical / res advantage (assuming RFK remains). Also, fights only occur for harassment or a big push to break a base.
The reason I prefer games with spread out resources is then you're physically fighting for the resource position. Instead of sending troops in a massive push or harassment, you have to apply pressure to key locations not because it gives you a positional advantage so you can win more battles (have the high ground, flanking, etc) but you're also holding a location of income. Thus, the fights have more importance instead of a simple skirmish.
If you play NS, you'll realize that most of the action occurs outside of the base as well.
This is by far the most controversial idea I've suggested, but also the best. Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
personally i love games where the marines make outposts, or slowly lockdown the other hives, before assaulting the last one. same with aliens, i love it when they conquer the empty hive areas, then infest the res nodes with chambers and oc's, one by one. slowly conquering territory creates a sort of "battle line" effect to the gameplay, and makes it a lot more satisfying (and exhilerating) when you manage to break through/sneak into enemy territory. to me, thats the most fun game to play, its far more exciting to win when you have conquered the entire map and then the last base, than to have 1 sneaky rambo go in and end the game within 5mins. it becomes an epic battle, rather than a cheap win. personally i hope they improve this type of gameplay greatly in NS2.
i like how the res nodes are spread out amongst the map, it makes both sides aware that they not only need to focus their main attacks on specific flash points in the map where the big clashes usually take place, but also be mindful of whats happening behind the scenes in the quieter areas. that way you always have 1 or 2 scouts from either team probing the weaker, more quiet spots in the map, which can lead to breaches in their defense. if all of the res nodes were lumped into these flash points, it would lead to virtual gameplay bottlenecks in my opinion, and would make the games end too quickly (if not from the gameplay itself, but from mass F4's)
NS maps already have 4 basic important points in the map - marine start and the 3 hives (5 if you include the double res points which are map specific). basically, i can't see how by limiting the res nodes scattered around the map into these 4 main points, that you would improve the game.
as i said i love your idea of "outposts" or 2nd bases, but they should remain just that - 2nd bases. the first one should always be the main one, the most important. but i think the dev's need to create some new awesome structures to help make 2nd bases more achievable and formidable - something more than you're basic Phase, TF, obs combo.
Because those 8 objectives stop becoming objectives. They become tools instead. This is exactly the reason why I think this idea is great, freedom. You wouldn't be "forced" to cap nodes anymore, which is extremely boring anyway - there isn't a single person who would disagree with me on this.
Also, expansions are never full blown bases, they wouldn't have any tech or equipment buildings.
Here is a summary:
Replace the current resource system with one that is going to add another layer of strategery, instead of just testing the marine/alien ability to take and hold nodes.
- No running around maps holding the E key as a marine
- Nobody whining about buildings nodes on the alien team
- As a marine commander, it will be your job to decide when to stop aliens from expanding (by killing DI) and when to take expansions yourself.
- Perfectly reasonable to have a game with both teams holding only one node.
- no more running around as alien holding the mouse1 key
aka biting rts till you die of boredom or loose the game, because noone else likes to kill rts.
In general I'm not sure about your idea, but I'm open for anything that reduces the time players spend on holding a key while facing a structure.
This is by far the most controversial idea I've suggested, but also the best. Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pardon, but isn't this something to discuss with the mappers specifically? I'm not sure what this idea holds until it is tried out.
Domining, a thought: what if instead of 4 RT clusters, you have single ones being modified by the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103913" target="_blank">res_rate_control</a> entity I proposed? Then you could even make it objective event or time event based which might make for some very intriguing maps that could either be direct or more strategic.
Um, I think you missed the point.
The action might be outside your main base, but it's very very close to res points. Thus winning battles gains you a res location. This provide a much more organic and visible boundary line. Battles with only a few clusters might give slight res advantage assuming RFK stays in, but they don't have the same impact as gaining or losing control of RT locations. I mean, unless you want advantages to be gained and lost due to RFK until you have enough strength to break an actual base.
BTW, I was using the term "base" to loosely include RTs and PG outposts in my previous post.
I believe he's specifically limiting the number of locations with res, but increasing their output so that you would have to expand to them with a strong base/force and it would be a much stronger gamble instead of lazily dropping RTs around the map and hope they don't die.
Because a single resource mining building would cost you 100 res.
<!--quoteo(post=1674426:date=Mar 27 2008, 12:05 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Mar 27 2008, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe he's specifically limiting the number of locations with res, but increasing their output so that you would have to expand to them with a strong base/force and it would be a much stronger gamble instead of lazily dropping RTs around the map and hope they don't die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
<!--quoteo(post=1674427:date=Mar 27 2008, 12:54 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 27 2008, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that the time building and killing RTs could be shorter, but I think would be better to find some other solution that a chokepoint meat grinder. Map control is an interesting thing because you can't focus on 1 or 2 locations. At the moment its both interesting 1v1 capper vs skulk fights and full team hive fights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except its not interesting at all because there is no map control involved in NS. Its all about a strong offense and that is basically it, no strategy involved.
I'd consider a system waypointing pg the very basic map control tactic. Of course its not anything to seal off locations completely, but I'd still call it map control. Guarding dome with one marine to allow the rest to take out pipe nodes and such is another one. Moving one marine to spawncamp to force the lerk away from the sg push. Not very creative examples and most of them involve offensive pressure, but its still nice when you get the timing right and the whole map positioning pays off instead of just one group of marines.
You don't probably lose all that by reducing the amount of rt:s, but most likely there's going to be much less flanking and secondary routes if only the mid res areas are important.
E: Oh well... Kinda stupid examples, but I'm tired and you'll get the point. Making the whole map positioning useful instead of the fight for one location and some random baseraids.
Hell yes.
My idea was to have some kind of 'buildpack'. You press E once, then the pack does the rest of the job, and you can piss off. (Or perhaps you'd have to stay in proximity, dunno. Discuss.) Storywise(?) the commander drops a 'ghost structure' that is essentially the blueprint suspended in a virtual space, the buildpack takes the information (location and blueprint) and turns it into an actual structure. *shrug* It's not really that important though. No one seems to care where medpacks drop from.
Also need something to reduce the tedium of killing RTs too.
As dom said, reduce any or remove all instances of 'stand there holding a button for a while'.
<!--quoteo(post=1674429:date=Mar 28 2008, 02:22 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 28 2008, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because a single resource mining building would cost you 100 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah. So it's pretty much about opportunity cost then. Well, that's interesting...
I'd actually like to see how that plays..
But, where would the main combat and little skirmishes take place then?