Physics Manipulation
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">As a Marine Tech Tree</div>The paradigm behind the marine tech trees seems to split into 2 categories, one with the Observatory being the "scout" tree, existing to use reconnaisance and fast macro map control to win games, with the other being a "brute force" tree, which focuses on placing a great deal of pressure on consecutive micro points in the map to achieve a desired objective.
Of course p* (meaning here, an optimal mix of the two trees) is inevitable in any good game, and I wouldn't have it any other way, so the trees do combine together at times, which in my opinion makes gameplay all the more interesting.
The tech trees up to this point have been completely player-centric, whether their purpose was to teleport players, make players harder to kill, make it easier to kill other players, etc. This is because the engine left much of the ambient environment static and unmanipulable. Because NS2 is being developed on the Source engine, that restriction is no longer in place, so I believe that these paradigms can be expanded upon in new ways.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->What<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I'm suggesting here is a new tech tree based on controlling an <i>environment</i> vs controlling a <i>player</i>. This is (of course) as NS is a fundamentally deathmatch style game, a level of indirection into controlling the opposing team, but I believe that it could very well be a positive element of gameplay.
The tree would be based on a Physics Lab object which parallels the Observatory and Arms Lab in tech speed, and would have aspects such as:
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->1.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Gravity Manipulation (Physics Lab)
Where higher levels of the upgrade would allow stronger forces to be generated by weapons (ie a gravity gun) or other manipulation systems in game.
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Prop Control (Physics Lab + AA)
Consider for example a terrible machine that can lift and throw cargo crates, or a heavy-style suit ala Alien that specializes in controlling alien positioning, rather than actually killing a player.
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->3.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Marine Flight (Physics Lab + Proto Lab + AA)
Marine and alien flight would be tremendously different. While a lerk flaps to remain aloft, marine flight would base itself on magnetics, therefore marines would excel at remaining aloft for long periods of time in one place, and moving slowly (such as over a lava pit whose tram had been demolished by an onos). Marines on the other hand would not have even a fraction of a lerk's mobility, and flight (which can really be described better as magnetic levitation) would come as a costly and risky maneuver.
These are only non-playtested examples of course, and you could base a tremendous amount of different gameplay aspects on a theme like this. It would definitely need testing, but I think it's a reasonable suggestion that would most likely improve the overall experience of NS2.
Of course p* (meaning here, an optimal mix of the two trees) is inevitable in any good game, and I wouldn't have it any other way, so the trees do combine together at times, which in my opinion makes gameplay all the more interesting.
The tech trees up to this point have been completely player-centric, whether their purpose was to teleport players, make players harder to kill, make it easier to kill other players, etc. This is because the engine left much of the ambient environment static and unmanipulable. Because NS2 is being developed on the Source engine, that restriction is no longer in place, so I believe that these paradigms can be expanded upon in new ways.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->What<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I'm suggesting here is a new tech tree based on controlling an <i>environment</i> vs controlling a <i>player</i>. This is (of course) as NS is a fundamentally deathmatch style game, a level of indirection into controlling the opposing team, but I believe that it could very well be a positive element of gameplay.
The tree would be based on a Physics Lab object which parallels the Observatory and Arms Lab in tech speed, and would have aspects such as:
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->1.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Gravity Manipulation (Physics Lab)
Where higher levels of the upgrade would allow stronger forces to be generated by weapons (ie a gravity gun) or other manipulation systems in game.
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Prop Control (Physics Lab + AA)
Consider for example a terrible machine that can lift and throw cargo crates, or a heavy-style suit ala Alien that specializes in controlling alien positioning, rather than actually killing a player.
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->3.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Marine Flight (Physics Lab + Proto Lab + AA)
Marine and alien flight would be tremendously different. While a lerk flaps to remain aloft, marine flight would base itself on magnetics, therefore marines would excel at remaining aloft for long periods of time in one place, and moving slowly (such as over a lava pit whose tram had been demolished by an onos). Marines on the other hand would not have even a fraction of a lerk's mobility, and flight (which can really be described better as magnetic levitation) would come as a costly and risky maneuver.
These are only non-playtested examples of course, and you could base a tremendous amount of different gameplay aspects on a theme like this. It would definitely need testing, but I think it's a reasonable suggestion that would most likely improve the overall experience of NS2.
Comments
I think I understand where you're coming from, NS2 will need more tech to increase it's depth IMO, but this doesn't seem like 'it' to me.
Additionally, to the criticism of the gravity gun not "feeling right" for NS2, you could, with any amount of imagination at all, implement a little 2 foot robot that follows you around when you pick it up, and moves things out of your way, instead of having a gravity gun.
My purpose is not in implementing a specific item per se, but in a new tech tree to increase the depth of NS2's commanding experience. The applications, as I mentioned before, are mutable.
sorry couldn't help it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
seriously thought, I reall hope ns2 has some good use with physics, and I hope that there are like 4 trees a comm can take, and not to mention combine for some fun game play options
maybe something like
scout/fast tree
brute force tree
physics tree
station control tree (using the stations camera's doors, lifts etc)
"Quick, throw your reverse gravity grenade to trap the onos in the raised ceiling!"
"Quick, throw your reverse gravity grenade to trap the onos in the raised ceiling!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha thats awesome though!
most of the time i dislike the idea of freeze grenades, fire grenades, that kind of thing. I would rather just kill something with a normal grenade.
however throwing a grenade like that at an onos is fantastic, probably not so good against skulks , but against onos, it would be very useful
a weapon or tool that could greatly increase or decrease gravity would be interesting - allow everything to float or be unable to jump at either end of the spectrum.
Does one remember the marine bonus level in AVP1 onboard gateway. They made gravity rotate around as if the station was spinning out of control - this kind of effect would be wicked but i imagine hard to pull off in a multiplayer game
most of the time i dislike the idea of freeze grenades, fire grenades, that kind of thing. I would rather just kill something with a normal grenade.
however throwing a grenade like that at an onos is fantastic, probably not so good against skulks , but against onos, it would be very useful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention imagine the movement capability.
Jetpack room in Siege_007 would no longer require jet packs to get up... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I dont like the idea of marines having very slow flying speed though... would make them sitting ducks.
Not to mention that killing a single alien lifeform can turn a good game of ns on its head.
Maps should be designed with no set top or bottom, because I'm sure thats how spaceships would be designed.
Physics related, wouldn't the extent of that be welding map objects, such as doors? Would that need research into a tech tree?
If anything would be fun with more physics, I imagine the Kharaa would have fun with it, especially the Onos busting through stuff or sending stuff flying at the marines - sorta like that big bug in HL2.
Or maybe I am just misunderstanding what is meant by physics, marines and their tech? When I think physics, I think of one object impacting another ... acceleration, time, speed, momentum, friction... Unless we want the marines to start using more quantum physics, perhaps a singularity weapon? Rail guns? Probability fields? You know, beyond the current "Star Trek" teleporting, unless we want to see if the marines start using event horizon portals instead - you know, like Portal but it could be like a doorway structure or a Stargate SG1 thing instead of the 'gun'.
Maps should be designed with no set top or bottom, because I'm sure thats how spaceships would be designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that would be very awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Also I could see suddenly swopping gravity to have huge problems... A 100 foot ceiling turning into a death pit being one of them...
I don't even know what to think about that... (not to mention a source code nightmare) cool I guess... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
~edited for improved clarity~
Also I could see suddenly swopping gravity to have huge problems... A 100 foot ceiling turning into a death pit being one of them...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 is a good point. The planet bases would have an innate gravity (which can't be reversed), but the station also compensates for the difference in gravity between mentioned planet and earth's gravity (low g health effects for humans etc..) with some sort of a centrifuge/handwavium technology. That would work.
2 - which is why I mentioned
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maps should be designed with no set top or bottom, because I'm sure thats how spaceships would be designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides the physics in source aren't all that impressive when put in a net environment, well let's just say not in a fast paced game (aliens)
None prop related physics might be fun for the player who is dishing out the hurtn', but could also fall into the categorie of not fun when player movement can be hindered with it. Heck I know even I get annoyed when I get blocked in TF2 by the enemy, or magically pushed aside when I'm sniping or perhaps getting snagged on walls (C'MON, CLIP BRUSH VALVE?) And I'm a pretty lenient guy when it comes to these things <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Not to mention that killing a single alien lifeform can turn a good game of ns on its head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where higher levels of the upgrade would allow stronger forces to be generated by weapons (ie a gravity gun) or other manipulation systems in game.
<b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Prop Control (Physics Lab + AA)
Consider for example a terrible machine that can lift and throw cargo crates, or a heavy-style suit ala Alien that specializes in controlling alien positioning, rather than actually killing a player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't think we need a separate tech tree just to move props around. That seems more like an innate ability to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1675542:date=Apr 10 2008, 01:27 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Apr 10 2008, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->3.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Marine Flight (Physics Lab + Proto Lab + AA)
Marine and alien flight would be tremendously different. While a lerk flaps to remain aloft, marine flight would base itself on magnetics, therefore marines would excel at remaining aloft for long periods of time in one place, and moving slowly (such as over a lava pit whose tram had been demolished by an onos). Marines on the other hand would not have even a fraction of a lerk's mobility, and flight (which can really be described better as magnetic levitation) would come as a costly and risky maneuver.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would a marine ever choose this over jetpacks? I don't think they would, unless the hive room was surrounded by a large expanse of lava that was too large to cross with a jetpack.
<!--quoteo(post=1675958:date=Apr 16 2008, 03:04 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Apr 16 2008, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But aren't physics, oh I dunno, quite laggy and annoying in muliplayer <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> In terms of movement speed of the aliens, as it was mentioned in this thread, it would be a snag fest. The aliens and jetpack marines would keep getting stuck or snagged on these objects. And I've heard that this is a nono for most players, heck some are even annoyed with the func_nobuild snagging them for a microsecond in some cases.
Besides the physics in source aren't all that impressive when put in a net environment, well let's just say not in a fast paced game (aliens)
None prop related physics might be fun for the player who is dishing out the hurtn', but could also fall into the categorie of not fun when player movement can be hindered with it. Heck I know even I get annoyed when I get blocked in TF2 by the enemy, or magically pushed aside when I'm sniping or perhaps getting snagged on walls (C'MON, CLIP BRUSH VALVE?) And I'm a pretty lenient guy when it comes to these things <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree 100%, I hear people complaining in TF2 about getting stuck in cones on any map that has them set up as props. Even if you avoided getting completely stuck they're still a hindrance more than a feature.
I've always wondered about that, why is anyone even getting stuck? Shouldn't the player's model be exerting a 'push' always on the props of the enviroment so, say a cone or what have you, just slides, bounces, or otherwise just shoves out of the way, so player movement is never hindered? Is that what clip brush is supposed to do? Or is that supposed to represent a player character twisting to slip by something, like I do when moving through a crowd? I thought that is what happens in TF2 when a team mate can pass by you but not the opposition, the difference between letting someone slip by and resisting someone's slip by.
An wall like this could snag a player with the pillars (top view down)
<!--coloro:#141414--><span style="color:#141414"><!--/coloro-->_<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->__<!--coloro:#141414--><span style="color:#141414"><!--/coloro-->------<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->__
_| |_____| |_
While this same wall with clipbrushing would let the player slide past:
<!--coloro:#141414--><span style="color:#141414"><!--/coloro-->_<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->__<!--coloro:#141414--><span style="color:#141414"><!--/coloro-->-----<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->__
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><u>/</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->| |<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><u>\</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->___<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><u>/</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->| |<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><u>\</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
They are invisible but will enclose the square clip box of the pillars with sloping ones, can also be used on complex brushwork to smooth out movement. For NS1 these are ideal to smooth out the movement of a ceiling/wall walking skulk across complex brushwork.
Yet Valve doesn't know they exist it seems, if you have a look at a lot of mines where these wooden supports are. I mean this is basic map design and I am rather surprised that the a big company that developed this very engine is not using it in problem areas <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
However with dynamic physic props, this clip brush control goes out the window as they only work on static stuff. And one has to rely on the dodgy Havoc physics not to get snagged all the time. I mean these physics work like a charm in single player, but not very well in multiplayer.
I get the blocking of enemies in TF2, but still I'm annoyed if get blocked by them, even if it is working as intended . Especially as spy with me cloak blinking like a mad Christmas tree telling the enemy to open fire at my location. Damn I hate pyros when I'm spy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I think if you are going to have low gravity areas, it should be small areas of the map. I am currently working on a Source (hopefully...) NS2 map, although I don't know sizes of stuff, it's kinda more for just fun and testing ideas... ...but back to the point... This map will include a fully working airlock and low gravity area. This will be a shortcut between a hive and marine start, but will be extremely risky. Those who don't make the jump will most likely fall slowly into outer space and their own deaths. But I hope that this will make for a very interesting addition to the level as a whole and add to the effect of being out in space, which I feel many of the NS maps lacked. If you look around the forums you should be able to find out about how to do low gravity, for anyone who wants to have some fun in Hammer I suggest using some trigger_push and trigger_gravity together. It's like being the ball in a pinball machine! Way more fun than Portal if you get it right <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Probably something to do with skulks and wall running or buildings may be? or something. Seems strange tho. I hope they put it back in! We should all ask Max and Charlie to give us mappers the chance to add low gravity to our maps. Even if it's in areas that you can't build in. If its something to do with skulks wall running in low grav areas then covering the walls with trigger_push will stop that. <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Charlie and Max: PLEASE INCLUDE LOW GRAVITY IN NS2!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I hope they see that!
~edit~
Portals however would no be practical. (i.e.: full physics calculations for that in multiplayer with lots of other moving stuff --> CPU load nightmare --> people complaining about glitchy slugginess in-game)
~edit~
Portals however would no be practical. (i.e.: full physics calculations for that in multiplayer with lots of other moving stuff --> CPU load nightmare --> people complaining about glitchy slugginess in-game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you can't do flipping the map and stuff... not without coding change. And it didnt happen in NS... ...But could add greatly to the whole feeling of being in space. So <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->YES<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> for NS2?
Also has any one played the exit mod? It's multiplayer portal...
I have actually tried to beat it without it. Its tedious and painstakingly difficult, and involves packing explosive cans in tight passageways by hand, then shooting them off when the hunters run by. Not easy, not fun. And for the record I could probably beat the game with the gravity gun on hard while reading a book.
Half life 2 was all about the gameplay. EP1 and EP2 became hey what can we do with the gravity gun because its the only good idea we ever came up with and now we need to juice it till its dry. I could write a book on how me and others hate the gravity gun but I'll stop here.
marines.. grafivi shoes to walk on celing
if skulk walk on celling.. the view flip 180* [wall 90*] etc
its kinda crappy to walk on celling and se same way.. skulk walk back side to wall? nonsense...