<!--quoteo(post=1678471:date=May 12 2008, 06:56 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ May 12 2008, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea that a whole team would go a class because it's overpowered id silly... you still need people to go medic after all, for lovely uberage =3
Explosive weapons are always tricky to balance out in games though. I did hear they'd reduced the ammo pool for soldiers a bit which cuts down the spam a lil but I still think they're a bad class. Not necessarily unbalanced, just ill-fitted.
I think the demo-man fulfills the explosives role lots better; less health, more likely to kill themselves as well if they manage to close-range you and their spam is only dangerous if it directly hits you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd tend to agree with this. Soldier is still more powerful than any other class if you average out all his skill proficiencies: e.g.
Movement: High (with rocket jump) Risk: Low (i.e. he doesn't need to take big risks to make kills or rocket-jump, etc.) Speed: Low Damage: High Rate of Fire: Medium Range: High Health: High Mass: High
...versus something like the Demoman, who is more of:
Movement: High (with nade jump) Speed: Medium Damage: High Rate of Fire: Medium Range: Medium Risk: Medium (i.e. he doesn't need to take big risks to make kills or grenade-jump, etc.) Health: Medium Mass: Medium
...versus something like the Sniper:
Movement: Medium Speed: Fast Damage: High/Medium Rate of Fire: Low/Medium Range: High Risk: High (i.e. he can only see what's directly in front of him when going for max damage, which means vulnerability) Health: Low Mass: Low
So, overall Soldier is either average or better than average in any given proficiency except speed, which can be nullified via his rocket jump ability. My opinion is that the Soldier should either have his health tweaked slightly, or have his shotgun reduced to 4 shots instead of 6. The biggest issue by far with the Soldier is he can deal pain for longer because of the amount of no-reload spam at his fingertips (4 rockets + 6 shotgun hits = 848-988 damage, assuming no crits at triple damage!!!!). With only 4 shots that figure would be reduced to 688-808
Working for those values: Maximum damage range for non-crit direct hits with rocket/shotgun = 92-112/80-90 (read "-" as range, not subtraction)
4 direct rocket hits and 6 direct rocket hits = [4*(92-112)] + [6*(80-90)] = 368-448 + 480-540 = 848-988
4 direct rocket hits and 4 direct rocket hits = [4*(92-112)] + [4*(80-90)] = 368-448 + 320-360 = 688-808
Note: Direct hits inflates the damage slightly, but I haven't accounted for any crits, which do triple damage. Also to note is that Shotgun damage falls off over distance.
You could even make the Soldier's shotgun a super-shotgun that deals slightly more damage at the expense of a 4-shot capacity. I still think the fact he'd need to reload more often would reduce his effectiveness greatly.
<!--quoteo(post=1678529:date=May 13 2008, 03:01 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ May 13 2008, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regula crits do double damage. That includes crit rockets. It's sniper headshots that do triple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone said earlier that they reduced crit rocket damage to 270 so I doubt a normal rocket does 135 damage, which would kill all light classes with a single shot on a direct hit.
Slightly more, then. A direct hit from a rocket does up to 115 damage according to <a href="http://www.tf2wiki.net/wiki/Rocket_Launcher" target="_blank">TF2Wiki</a>, which parallels my findings of "yeah, they do a ######ton of damage."
I guess I should had added that the crits do 3x damage then, not 2x, which was my point. They just nerfed the crit, not the normal damage. Which in turn proves your point, rockets DO mucho damage.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
crispy i think youre underestimating the other classes, sniper and demo are both really low risk since they can be played from a distance, and soldier certainly does not have a long range since the rockets become incredibly easy to dodge once you get past a mediumish distance.
the demo on the other hand can have a quite far range with the stickybombs since they can go completely across almost any map.
<!--quoteo(post=1678536:date=May 13 2008, 04:40 PM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(6john @ May 13 2008, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->crispy i think youre underestimating the other classes, sniper and demo are both really low risk since they can be played from a distance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I considered this, and I think that the fact the Sniper is Spyfood while scoped, and the fact he's super slow while scoped, and the fact he can only get into those low-risk situations in very few areas of a map mean that in general he's kinda high risk in general. The Demo puts all his stickies in one area - once there he risks that that's where the enemy will come from, and only had 4 grenades to protect himself if someone surprises him from elsewhere. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soldier certainly does not have a long range since the rockets become incredibly easy to dodge once you get past a mediumish distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Easy to dodge, but that wasn't the aspect I was talking about. Looking at a Soldier versus a structure, or a slow Heavy, or a scoped Sniper or a distant doorway, the Soldier can damage anything in a chosen area provided he has line of sight. The damage doesn't decrease over range unlike most other classes. Splash damage is also especially useful for area denial, like spamming a CP even if you're nowhere near it. Yes the rockets can be dodged, but at a cost, which is something the Soldier can do effectively but no other class other than Demo and Sniper (both slow rate of fire) can do.
<!--quoteo(post=1678539:date=May 13 2008, 12:45 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 13 2008, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The damage doesn't decrease over range unlike most other classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true. Rocket damage decreases over distance just like every other weapon in TF2.
<!--quoteo(post=1678539:date=May 13 2008, 06:45 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 13 2008, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]The Demo puts all his stickies in one area - once there he risks that that's where the enemy will come from, and only had 4 grenades to protect himself if someone surprises him from elsewhere.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He doesn't necessarily. Any demoman lays traps, sure, but the better demomen hardly do this all the time. The stickies are too valuable in direct combat to waste on stickytraps all the time. Even if you do lay a stickytrap and the enemy comes from somewhere else, you can still use your stickylauncher to fight him, you just need to give up your stickytrap for the moment. The grenade launcher is an indispensable tool, but it cannot match the versatility and raw power of the stickylauncher.
It's fun when you're fighting a demoman who's used to fighting pyros when you're a pyro too. They'll tend to fire stickies at their feet as you chase them and detonate them a few seconds later when you'll be standing on them as you try to close the distance... except you don't. You switch to shotgun instead and pepper them from the other side of their sticky while going around it. Only works as long as you keep close enough to stop them airbursting the stickies at you and the clever demos will switch to their pipes or just leg it once they realilise what you're doing =3
<!--quoteo(post=1678549:date=May 14 2008, 01:22 AM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ May 14 2008, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not true. Rocket damage decreases over distance just like every other weapon in TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sniper rifle doesn't decrease over distance, but more importantly: source?
I'm fairly sure that crockets don't decrease over distance at all, but I'd like to know just how much they decrease over distance. The splash damage obviously has a falloff over distance, but I'm not aware that a direct hit at 100ft deals less damage than a direct hit at 20ft or even 2ft.
I'm guessing that TF2wiki is hosted somewhere Stateside because I timeout whenever I try to get onto it.
--- Demo's good, but he's no match for a Soldier. Perhaps he's less risk than I gave him credit for, but that doesn't make up for his other misgivings. Maybe these upgrades will give him a bit of a boost.
TF2Wiki is hosted stateside, and seems to be getting hammered lately.
Most weapons have damage falloff over range. Some don't, such as the sniper rifle, the stickybombs, and probably not the pipe bombs either. This can be determined through testing, which is how TF2Wiki gets their numbers.
Crits are exempt from damage falloff, but do full damage regardless of range (although individual pellets of a shotgun blast can still miss, reducing overall damage).
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited May 2008
there is NO damage decrease over distance from what I understand, there is just the fact that you will deal less damage due to accuracy.
The scattergun deals almost no damage to your intended target at long range due to spread, the pistol loses less damage due to higher accuracy, the sniper rifle deals damage the same t just about any distance due to perfect accuracy, etc etc etc.
rockets are hard to judge due to the fact that you can still just spam away and still deal good damage.
However if I am fighting over a CP I will deal more dmg then if I am spamming from one sniper spot to another.
hmph, I can't find anything giving actually numbers about damage fall off ion tf2 wiki, though it is mentioned a few times.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2008
And the sniper also has to deal with scoped charging to maximise the damage, leaving him quite vulnerable to spies, rockets/grenades/stickies etc... From outside scope field of view.
Overall we can safely assume that most classes are environment dependant for their effectiveness, but the soldier seems to excell in a lot of situation less dependant on the environment. Areas with sentries excluded as they are the bane of existence for all life on earth! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I mean if he sees an enemy at long range he can rocketjump (fastest movement ingame?) towards that area to do some serious close range damage and escape with another rocketjump. While in the air reload and continue to do damage arround corners. I think the real problem with the class is his core skills, meaning he can go anywhere on a map where others simply can't.
Even the demo man is less effective in this as his stickies take away a lot of health if you want rocketjump performance in terms of distance and speed. But yeah, the other team also has soldiers so there is your balance according to Valve I guess. One point against this could be that on progressive CP maps one team is on defense and the other on offense...
I guess taking away airspeed and nadejumping for most classes in classic fortress, did indeed have an impact on balance. The soldier is the only one who still has that performance in terms of movement speed. The rest are now reduced to walking... (demoman sticky jumping has more against it then rocketjumping)
I dun really mind as I don't play this game seriously anyway and yeah if all else fails I join the ranks of soldiers to do the same things to them as they are doing to my sniper and pyro, when I'm having a bad day at killing things! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
Yah, Demo definitely has the highest air speed of any class, however the damage taken makes you think much more tactically when playing him, generally either getting to a point where you should not be shot at or getting to a point where you will get HP on landing (first areas in Dustbowl and gold rush).
So, completely random:
I managed to kill my self when trying to do a sticky jump recently. Only 2 stickies, neither crits, was at full HP, and was going for distance not height so I didn't trigger right on top of them. Not really sure what happened tbh.
<!--quoteo(post=1678589:date=May 14 2008, 05:06 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ May 14 2008, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yah, Demo definitely has the highest air speed of any class, however the damage taken makes you think much more tactically when playing him, generally either getting to a point where you should not be shot at or getting to a point where you will get HP on landing (first areas in Dustbowl and gold rush).
So, completely random:
I managed to kill my self when trying to do a sticky jump recently. Only 2 stickies, neither crits, was at full HP, and was going for distance not height so I didn't trigger right on top of them. Not really sure what happened tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Water.
This happens often on certain skyscraper maps, where you start in a puddle of water and there is a small platform floating, from where you can then sticky jump. When you place the sticky in such a way, that it is partially covered with water it will instagib you.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
interesting, but it was actually Dustbowl, was going for the standard jump from mid grate to the top left tunnel, a jump I have made countless times now.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1678592:date=May 14 2008, 11:22 AM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ May 14 2008, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->interesting, but it was actually Dustbowl, was going for the standard jump from mid grate to the top left tunnel, a jump I have made countless times now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure you weren't hit previously? Sniper shot just before takeoff? That happens to me when I try and jump 2fort. Plant a sticky, run, jump, get hit by a sniper, trigger sticky and gib myself.
<!--quoteo(post=1677342:date=May 1 2008, 12:36 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ May 1 2008, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gotta say, I hate the new achievements. logged in, instantly got the 3 long-term healing achievements since I've logged 30 hours as medic already, got annoyed at how many other medics there were, tried to play normally as a medic like I usually do, didn't get any other achievements, got bored and quit.
I loved the old achievements. they didn't reward you with anything, and they were likely to unlock if you just played the game normally. only one I had to go out of my way to get was the one that required you to play with a full team on your friends list or whatever. all these medic achievements are contrived. I don't want to go out of my way to work with 3 medics to uber 3 people at the same time. I want to play the game like I normally do and have access to the new equipment.
that's one of the good things about battlefield. you can unlock a class' weapon just by playing the game normally. I never thought I'd ever say this, but EA knows something about game design that valve doesn't in this case =P
wish I got to use the console command before they blocked it so I'd at least get to try out the new weaps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree completely. I don't personally like the new unlockables for TF2, they fall into the same category as crits. They basically make what could be a great competitive game into crap. Crits make skill a diceroll thing, where you can never really measure skill because a kill at any given point in time may simply be the result of a magical random variable that just happened to choose in your favor, and unlockables mean that you have to waste a huge amount of time jumping through hoops to simply be on a level playing field with the rest of the players, which has no place in a competitive deathmatch game IMO.
That being said, what we need to realize is that the TF2 team has made their choice. They decided to say "###### you competitive play" and make a game as fun as possible for the pub crowd. Therefore they decided to build a game where even if you suck you always have that diceroll to give you those 10 kill streaks, and there is always lots of objectives in the game, not just winning the particular match in question. The whole point is to make the player try to play in DIFFERENT ways to unlock the achievements and ultimately the alternative weapons systems. The game is intentionally trying to be outside of the box, and if you're going to choose to make a game that way, then there's really no complaint to be made about it. You are supposed to just screw around and have fun in TF2, that's the way the developers designed it.
Like I say, personally I think that it's a terrible choice for a development team to take a game that way, but they made their choice, and in context of that they are making some really cool moves in the direction they want to go. I'd never join a TF2 team to compete, but I'll probably find the pub game a little more fun than I would have otherwise.
I don't play Team Fortress 2 much at all. I'm not a big fan. It's far too casual a game in many areas, relying on chance and expecting its userbase to be stupid. Yet, despite that casual atmosphere, I think its teamwork element is far too complex, and too heavy-handed for a public-server-based game.
For those who didn't follow TF2's prequel Team Fortress Classic, the clan/league environment was both the lifeblood and the cancer of the community in that game. While it is still keeping the game alive, its a game that is far different from its original form, and has suffered greatly due to the changes. I can empathize and understand Valve's intentions in making the game for public servers rather than competitive, as the competitive atmosphere helped ruin whatever fun was to be had in TFC.
Back several pages ago, I believe Tycho mentioned Call of Duty 4's perks and upgrades system as a comparison to TF2's system. I disagree: Call of Duty 4's system allows for upgrades that aren't integral to victory, as TF2's medic upgrades will become to be. CoD4's upgrades are cosmetic or minor, and can be achieved in a short amount of time in most instances from simply playing the game normally. Most of the achievements merely give XP, which levels up a player in a shorter amount of time, whereas TF2's end up giving weapons that are much more important to the gameplay. While CoD4 does have unlockable weapons, they all can be picked up and used by all players, regardless of his or her current XP level. TF2's weapons don't have that ability, at least not currently.
I fear that unless I start playing TF2 now, by the time I get around to playing it again, I'll be too far behind to be of much use. I don't like playing MMORPGs for that very reason, as I don't want to feel a requirement to continually upgrade and/or level up to play amongst decent players.
I understand by not playing religiously I'll end up being rusty compared to the no-lifers, but I'll at least have a chance in CoD4: not so in MMORPGs, and not so in TF2, it seems.
I'll say this: only 3 out of the 27 alternate weapons are out, one should not be too quick to jump to conclusions. I'd argue that it will be easier to give true alternates (i.e. equally balanced) weapons to the actual combat classes than the medic. TF2 provides a limited amount of direct support assistance and there were probably not too many options to give him while not turning him into an MMO-like priest guy with funky buffs. Medic regens on his own, so the blutsauger builds on that, and crits were already in the game so a crit-buff is an easy direction to go. While the ubersaw is rather overpowered, it has a very obvious hard counter: kill the medic before he reaches you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, what we need to realize is that the TF2 team has made their choice. They decided to say "###### you competitive play" and make a game as fun as possible for the pub crowd. ... and if you're going to choose to make a game that way, then there's really no complaint to be made about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure there is: GRIND IS NOT FUN Never has been, never will be. Rockets aside, I didn't mind crits because they were never annoying. But grind is boring and annoying and stupid. I'll have none of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's far too casual a game in many areas, relying on chance and expecting its userbase to be stupid. Yet, despite that casual atmosphere, I think its teamwork element is far too complex, and too heavy-handed for a public-server-based game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats what I loved about it. It was easy to pick up and play but difficult to master, requiring actual teamplay and not just having the super-leet player on your side (not that that doesn't help). And frankly I think the lack of grenades made it significantly less random than TFC. I used to love TFC too though, until it became impossible to find a server with people on it that wasn't Dustbowl/2Fort only.
I don't even get 2fort. What's so desirable about it? All I ever see are huge, boring stalemates and sniperfests. I never played TFC back in the day, so I have to guess, but I assume there was some gameplay mechanic in TFC that made the map tolerable.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I think a lot of people here are getting caught up in the general unlock-hype, or were caught up in it and are now trying to justify it.
The unlocks aren't all that useful. Seriously. The bloodsucker (I can't spell in other languages, sue me) is only useful against people who are nearly dead or really bad, in both cases the regular needle gun would serve. The bloodsucker, at best, saves a short trip back to a medpack/spawn. The crit-uber-gun is fun, but requires even better timing than the regular uber (ubering a soldier as they face a medic'd HW is a relatively decent trade off, but crit-ubering a soldier when there's only a heavy around is a waste), which most people lack, and even then you can still take them down. Unless they're also ubered at the same time, which usually happens at the start of setup rounds (dustbowl, goldrush etc...), in which case pretty much all the people leaving the attackers spawn will be ubered as well, rendering them useless. As mentioned, the ubersaw might be a tad overpowered, but the counter is simple: Kill the medic before they get within stabbing range.
I think most of the negaitve reaction to the unlocks, especially the "they're overpowered" claims, comes from the sheer amount of people playing medic. It changed the game mechanics, maybe not hugely, but significantly enough to notice. A hell of a lot more people are rambo-medics now than before, and personally I think this is leading people to believe that the unlocks are overpowered in some way, when in actual fact the old medic weapons are just as powerful, just people didn't try playing like that before on any decent scale (you'd come across maybe 1 or 2 rambo-medics every few games, but now pretty much every medic will have a go most of the time).
So in my opinion.... I dunno. I personally don't think the actual unlocks have changed anything. In my own playing, I haven't noticed any difference between when I use the unlocks and when I don't, except for me noting earlier that the bloodsucker saves a trip to a medpack in some circumstances. I think that the biggest change the unlocks have done is encourage people to play medic a lot more, and on top of that changed the <i>way</i> in which people play medic.
You may now proceed to shoot down my arguments and/or tell me that people have already said this in the thread. It's 6:27am and my brain no do good.
PS
To Lolfighter:
Personally the appeal of 2fort is that it's essentially a deathmatch for TF2. It's a map to just go on to frag, not worry about working with a team, just storm out and kill folk. It was pretty much the same in TFC. It's a nice simple map where you're never running around for more than 10 seconds without seeing an enemy. Well used to be the same in TFC too. I guess that's why they broke up the map for TF2. In TFC, the two bases could see each other. The central passage way was covered, but had multiple windows, and was only about a foot taller than the models, so snipers could snipe each other from their own base's sniper windows. Well and 2Fort were just the deathmatch maps mostly.
<!--quoteo(post=1678691:date=May 16 2008, 12:16 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ May 16 2008, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bloodsucker (I can't spell in other languages, sue me) is only useful against people who are nearly dead or really bad, in both cases the regular needle gun would serve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. What I'm seeing in games is that the syringe gun and the blutsauger are pretty equal most of the time, except for two circumstances: When a good medic is going up against a good scout or a good pyro. If the scout or pyro gets the element of surprise, then it's all over for the medic, as it was before, but if the medic sees them coming, the blutsauger makes the difference between winning and losing those battles for the medic. The scout and pyro have very little health and are both close combat classes. Taking health away from them and adding it to the medic means that they have to run away from those battles. Granted, the scout and pyro are meant to be fast, flanking, hit-and-run classes, but that's at least one scenario where the blutsauger provides a definite advantage to the medic.
X_Stickman, There is a significant problem with the unlockables you are not considering: Some players will have them and some players will not. This means that certain tactics and strategies simply will not be available to some teams unless everyone grinds. And grinding, as previously mentioned, sucks ass.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never played TFC back in the day, so I have to guess, but I assume there was some gameplay mechanic in TFC that made the map tolerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You assume incorrectly. 2Fort has always sucked.
uh... sticky? The bridge in TFC was <b>not</b> covered at all. It didn't even have walls really.
The bridge is burned into my memory after a stunt involving 5 enemy soldiers moving across the bridge together before one of them stopped us in the middle screaming "there's only 4 soldiers in our team!". All the soldiers turned and shoot the guy in the middle except the one near the back who sprints up and backstabs the nearest one, revealing themselves as a spy, before jumping off to the safety of the water giggling, silhouetted in true action style by rocket explosions. As you can probably guess I was that spy =3
It had sort of concrete posts at each end and a very low concrete wall (easily jumpable) along it's edge.
<b>Gem is silly edit:</b> Ohhhh wait... you were talking about well, not the 2fort bridge. Oopsie =D
Comments
Explosive weapons are always tricky to balance out in games though. I did hear they'd reduced the ammo pool for soldiers a bit which cuts down the spam a lil but I still think they're a bad class. Not necessarily unbalanced, just ill-fitted.
I think the demo-man fulfills the explosives role lots better; less health, more likely to kill themselves as well if they manage to close-range you and their spam is only dangerous if it directly hits you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd tend to agree with this. Soldier is still more powerful than any other class if you average out all his skill proficiencies: e.g.
Movement: High (with rocket jump)
Risk: Low (i.e. he doesn't need to take big risks to make kills or rocket-jump, etc.)
Speed: Low
Damage: High
Rate of Fire: Medium
Range: High
Health: High
Mass: High
...versus something like the Demoman, who is more of:
Movement: High (with nade jump)
Speed: Medium
Damage: High
Rate of Fire: Medium
Range: Medium
Risk: Medium (i.e. he doesn't need to take big risks to make kills or grenade-jump, etc.)
Health: Medium
Mass: Medium
...versus something like the Sniper:
Movement: Medium
Speed: Fast
Damage: High/Medium
Rate of Fire: Low/Medium
Range: High
Risk: High (i.e. he can only see what's directly in front of him when going for max damage, which means vulnerability)
Health: Low
Mass: Low
So, overall Soldier is either average or better than average in any given proficiency except speed, which can be nullified via his rocket jump ability. My opinion is that the Soldier should either have his health tweaked slightly, or have his shotgun reduced to 4 shots instead of 6. The biggest issue by far with the Soldier is he can deal pain for longer because of the amount of no-reload spam at his fingertips (4 rockets + 6 shotgun hits = 848-988 damage, assuming no crits at triple damage!!!!). With only 4 shots that figure would be reduced to 688-808
Working for those values:
Maximum damage range for non-crit direct hits with rocket/shotgun = 92-112/80-90 (read "-" as range, not subtraction)
4 direct rocket hits and 6 direct rocket hits
= [4*(92-112)] + [6*(80-90)]
= 368-448 + 480-540
= 848-988
4 direct rocket hits and 4 direct rocket hits
= [4*(92-112)] + [4*(80-90)]
= 368-448 + 320-360
= 688-808
Note:
Direct hits inflates the damage slightly, but I haven't accounted for any crits, which do triple damage. Also to note is that Shotgun damage falls off over distance.
You could even make the Soldier's shotgun a super-shotgun that deals slightly more damage at the expense of a 4-shot capacity. I still think the fact he'd need to reload more often would reduce his effectiveness greatly.
Someone said earlier that they reduced crit rocket damage to 270 so I doubt a normal rocket does 135 damage, which would kill all light classes with a single shot on a direct hit.
the demo on the other hand can have a quite far range with the stickybombs since they can go completely across almost any map.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soldier certainly does not have a long range since the rockets become incredibly easy to dodge once you get past a mediumish distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Easy to dodge, but that wasn't the aspect I was talking about. Looking at a Soldier versus a structure, or a slow Heavy, or a scoped Sniper or a distant doorway, the Soldier can damage anything in a chosen area provided he has line of sight. The damage doesn't decrease over range unlike most other classes. Splash damage is also especially useful for area denial, like spamming a CP even if you're nowhere near it. Yes the rockets can be dodged, but at a cost, which is something the Soldier can do effectively but no other class other than Demo and Sniper (both slow rate of fire) can do.
Not true. Rocket damage decreases over distance just like every other weapon in TF2.
He doesn't necessarily. Any demoman lays traps, sure, but the better demomen hardly do this all the time. The stickies are too valuable in direct combat to waste on stickytraps all the time. Even if you do lay a stickytrap and the enemy comes from somewhere else, you can still use your stickylauncher to fight him, you just need to give up your stickytrap for the moment. The grenade launcher is an indispensable tool, but it cannot match the versatility and raw power of the stickylauncher.
I'm fairly sure that crockets don't decrease over distance at all, but I'd like to know just how much they decrease over distance. The splash damage obviously has a falloff over distance, but I'm not aware that a direct hit at 100ft deals less damage than a direct hit at 20ft or even 2ft.
I'm guessing that TF2wiki is hosted somewhere Stateside because I timeout whenever I try to get onto it.
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Demo's good, but he's no match for a Soldier. Perhaps he's less risk than I gave him credit for, but that doesn't make up for his other misgivings. Maybe these upgrades will give him a bit of a boost.
Most weapons have damage falloff over range. Some don't, such as the sniper rifle, the stickybombs, and probably not the pipe bombs either. This can be determined through testing, which is how TF2Wiki gets their numbers.
Crits are exempt from damage falloff, but do full damage regardless of range (although individual pellets of a shotgun blast can still miss, reducing overall damage).
The scattergun deals almost no damage to your intended target at long range due to spread, the pistol loses less damage due to higher accuracy, the sniper rifle deals damage the same t just about any distance due to perfect accuracy, etc etc etc.
rockets are hard to judge due to the fact that you can still just spam away and still deal good damage.
However if I am fighting over a CP I will deal more dmg then if I am spamming from one sniper spot to another.
hmph, I can't find anything giving actually numbers about damage fall off ion tf2 wiki, though it is mentioned a few times.
I now kinda want to test it out.
Overall we can safely assume that most classes are environment dependant for their effectiveness, but the soldier seems to excell in a lot of situation less dependant on the environment. Areas with sentries excluded as they are the bane of existence for all life on earth! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I mean if he sees an enemy at long range he can rocketjump (fastest movement ingame?) towards that area to do some serious close range damage and escape with another rocketjump. While in the air reload and continue to do damage arround corners. I think the real problem with the class is his core skills, meaning he can go anywhere on a map where others simply can't.
Even the demo man is less effective in this as his stickies take away a lot of health if you want rocketjump performance in terms of distance and speed. But yeah, the other team also has soldiers so there is your balance according to Valve I guess. One point against this could be that on progressive CP maps one team is on defense and the other on offense...
I guess taking away airspeed and nadejumping for most classes in classic fortress, did indeed have an impact on balance. The soldier is the only one who still has that performance in terms of movement speed. The rest are now reduced to walking... (demoman sticky jumping has more against it then rocketjumping)
I dun really mind as I don't play this game seriously anyway and yeah if all else fails I join the ranks of soldiers to do the same things to them as they are doing to my sniper and pyro, when I'm having a bad day at killing things! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
So, completely random:
I managed to kill my self when trying to do a sticky jump recently. Only 2 stickies, neither crits, was at full HP, and was going for distance not height so I didn't trigger right on top of them. Not really sure what happened tbh.
So, completely random:
I managed to kill my self when trying to do a sticky jump recently. Only 2 stickies, neither crits, was at full HP, and was going for distance not height so I didn't trigger right on top of them. Not really sure what happened tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Water.
This happens often on certain skyscraper maps, where you start in a puddle of water and there is a small platform floating, from where you can then sticky jump.
When you place the sticky in such a way, that it is partially covered with water it will instagib you.
Sure you weren't hit previously? Sniper shot just before takeoff? That happens to me when I try and jump 2fort. Plant a sticky, run, jump, get hit by a sniper, trigger sticky and gib myself.
I mean, I have done that to my self, sniper body shot, sticky jump, GIBS!
meh, it was really strange.
I loved the old achievements. they didn't reward you with anything, and they were likely to unlock if you just played the game normally. only one I had to go out of my way to get was the one that required you to play with a full team on your friends list or whatever. all these medic achievements are contrived. I don't want to go out of my way to work with 3 medics to uber 3 people at the same time. I want to play the game like I normally do and have access to the new equipment.
that's one of the good things about battlefield. you can unlock a class' weapon just by playing the game normally. I never thought I'd ever say this, but EA knows something about game design that valve doesn't in this case =P
wish I got to use the console command before they blocked it so I'd at least get to try out the new weaps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree completely. I don't personally like the new unlockables for TF2, they fall into the same category as crits. They basically make what could be a great competitive game into crap. Crits make skill a diceroll thing, where you can never really measure skill because a kill at any given point in time may simply be the result of a magical random variable that just happened to choose in your favor, and unlockables mean that you have to waste a huge amount of time jumping through hoops to simply be on a level playing field with the rest of the players, which has no place in a competitive deathmatch game IMO.
That being said, what we need to realize is that the TF2 team has made their choice. They decided to say "###### you competitive play" and make a game as fun as possible for the pub crowd. Therefore they decided to build a game where even if you suck you always have that diceroll to give you those 10 kill streaks, and there is always lots of objectives in the game, not just winning the particular match in question. The whole point is to make the player try to play in DIFFERENT ways to unlock the achievements and ultimately the alternative weapons systems. The game is intentionally trying to be outside of the box, and if you're going to choose to make a game that way, then there's really no complaint to be made about it. You are supposed to just screw around and have fun in TF2, that's the way the developers designed it.
Like I say, personally I think that it's a terrible choice for a development team to take a game that way, but they made their choice, and in context of that they are making some really cool moves in the direction they want to go. I'd never join a TF2 team to compete, but I'll probably find the pub game a little more fun than I would have otherwise.
For those who didn't follow TF2's prequel Team Fortress Classic, the clan/league environment was both the lifeblood and the cancer of the community in that game. While it is still keeping the game alive, its a game that is far different from its original form, and has suffered greatly due to the changes. I can empathize and understand Valve's intentions in making the game for public servers rather than competitive, as the competitive atmosphere helped ruin whatever fun was to be had in TFC.
Back several pages ago, I believe Tycho mentioned Call of Duty 4's perks and upgrades system as a comparison to TF2's system. I disagree: Call of Duty 4's system allows for upgrades that aren't integral to victory, as TF2's medic upgrades will become to be. CoD4's upgrades are cosmetic or minor, and can be achieved in a short amount of time in most instances from simply playing the game normally. Most of the achievements merely give XP, which levels up a player in a shorter amount of time, whereas TF2's end up giving weapons that are much more important to the gameplay. While CoD4 does have unlockable weapons, they all can be picked up and used by all players, regardless of his or her current XP level. TF2's weapons don't have that ability, at least not currently.
I fear that unless I start playing TF2 now, by the time I get around to playing it again, I'll be too far behind to be of much use. I don't like playing MMORPGs for that very reason, as I don't want to feel a requirement to continually upgrade and/or level up to play amongst decent players.
I understand by not playing religiously I'll end up being rusty compared to the no-lifers, but I'll at least have a chance in CoD4: not so in MMORPGs, and not so in TF2, it seems.
TF2 provides a limited amount of direct support assistance and there were probably not too many options to give him while not turning him into an MMO-like priest guy with funky buffs. Medic regens on his own, so the blutsauger builds on that, and crits were already in the game so a crit-buff is an easy direction to go. While the ubersaw is rather overpowered, it has a very obvious hard counter: kill the medic before he reaches you.
Sure there is: GRIND IS NOT FUN
Never has been, never will be. Rockets aside, I didn't mind crits because they were never annoying. But grind is boring and annoying and stupid. I'll have none of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's far too casual a game in many areas, relying on chance and expecting its userbase to be stupid. Yet, despite that casual atmosphere, I think its teamwork element is far too complex, and too heavy-handed for a public-server-based game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what I loved about it. It was easy to pick up and play but difficult to master, requiring actual teamplay and not just having the super-leet player on your side (not that that doesn't help). And frankly I think the lack of grenades made it significantly less random than TFC. I used to love TFC too though, until it became impossible to find a server with people on it that wasn't Dustbowl/2Fort only.
The unlocks aren't all that useful. Seriously. The bloodsucker (I can't spell in other languages, sue me) is only useful against people who are nearly dead or really bad, in both cases the regular needle gun would serve. The bloodsucker, at best, saves a short trip back to a medpack/spawn. The crit-uber-gun is fun, but requires even better timing than the regular uber (ubering a soldier as they face a medic'd HW is a relatively decent trade off, but crit-ubering a soldier when there's only a heavy around is a waste), which most people lack, and even then you can still take them down. Unless they're also ubered at the same time, which usually happens at the start of setup rounds (dustbowl, goldrush etc...), in which case pretty much all the people leaving the attackers spawn will be ubered as well, rendering them useless.
As mentioned, the ubersaw might be a tad overpowered, but the counter is simple: Kill the medic before they get within stabbing range.
I think most of the negaitve reaction to the unlocks, especially the "they're overpowered" claims, comes from the sheer amount of people playing medic. It changed the game mechanics, maybe not hugely, but significantly enough to notice. A hell of a lot more people are rambo-medics now than before, and personally I think this is leading people to believe that the unlocks are overpowered in some way, when in actual fact the old medic weapons are just as powerful, just people didn't try playing like that before on any decent scale (you'd come across maybe 1 or 2 rambo-medics every few games, but now pretty much every medic will have a go most of the time).
So in my opinion.... I dunno. I personally don't think the actual unlocks have changed anything. In my own playing, I haven't noticed any difference between when I use the unlocks and when I don't, except for me noting earlier that the bloodsucker saves a trip to a medpack in some circumstances.
I think that the biggest change the unlocks have done is encourage people to play medic a lot more, and on top of that changed the <i>way</i> in which people play medic.
You may now proceed to shoot down my arguments and/or tell me that people have already said this in the thread. It's 6:27am and my brain no do good.
PS
To Lolfighter:
Personally the appeal of 2fort is that it's essentially a deathmatch for TF2. It's a map to just go on to frag, not worry about working with a team, just storm out and kill folk. It was pretty much the same in TFC. It's a nice simple map where you're never running around for more than 10 seconds without seeing an enemy.
Well used to be the same in TFC too. I guess that's why they broke up the map for TF2. In TFC, the two bases could see each other. The central passage way was covered, but had multiple windows, and was only about a foot taller than the models, so snipers could snipe each other from their own base's sniper windows. Well and 2Fort were just the deathmatch maps mostly.
I disagree. What I'm seeing in games is that the syringe gun and the blutsauger are pretty equal most of the time, except for two circumstances: When a good medic is going up against a good scout or a good pyro. If the scout or pyro gets the element of surprise, then it's all over for the medic, as it was before, but if the medic sees them coming, the blutsauger makes the difference between winning and losing those battles for the medic. The scout and pyro have very little health and are both close combat classes. Taking health away from them and adding it to the medic means that they have to run away from those battles. Granted, the scout and pyro are meant to be fast, flanking, hit-and-run classes, but that's at least one scenario where the blutsauger provides a definite advantage to the medic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never played TFC back in the day, so I have to guess, but I assume there was some gameplay mechanic in TFC that made the map tolerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You assume incorrectly. 2Fort has always sucked.
The bridge is burned into my memory after a stunt involving 5 enemy soldiers moving across the bridge together before one of them stopped us in the middle screaming "there's only 4 soldiers in our team!". All the soldiers turned and shoot the guy in the middle except the one near the back who sprints up and backstabs the nearest one, revealing themselves as a spy, before jumping off to the safety of the water giggling, silhouetted in true action style by rocket explosions. As you can probably guess I was that spy =3
It had sort of concrete posts at each end and a very low concrete wall (easily jumpable) along it's edge.
<b>Gem is silly edit:</b> Ohhhh wait... you were talking about well, not the 2fort bridge. Oopsie =D