i dont know if your supporting my responce there swift or not.
still its been stated that there will be a seprate area for servers modifyed, be it a whole new menu or a ticked box that needs to be unticked, they plan on keeping modded servers seperate from vanilla, so the new people dont go fom server to server saying how do i get the mini gun that shoots nukes i had one on this server. only to go into another server and have some rando mod just killing people when ever he feels like it. so in theory amx wont even exsist cos a plugin shell has already been encorparated into the game, sure amx can be remade if the default plugin mod shell isnt as pretty or you cant have rainbow colored text. ether way a norm will become the flavor based on word of mouth and eye candy as well as modability esp if lamens can understand it.
<!--quoteo(post=1684003:date=Jul 19 2008, 03:36 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Jul 19 2008, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I really like bhopping I can understand why lost of folks are annoyed by it. Hence: Advanced movement techniques: -Wall jumping for skulks -Charged jumps for skulks (the longer you hold the button the further you jump etc) -Fixed Onos turn rate combined with locational damage (the old headshield debate) -Attack timing has an impact on damage inflicted. (If you are too close you do not do full damage etc) -Rolling or quick sidestepping for marines -Gorge can ride a bacteria stream (think Iceman) -Timed counterattacks for marines. (If enemy unit is skulk and leaping and in 50-60 units distance then marine quickly bashes incoming skulk with rifle butt) -Fades loose blink and instead can cloak at will combined with a speed boost. -Overhead wall hanging for lerks -Maybe a R6 Vegas like cover system for rines -Sprint function
There are lots of options to make movement more complex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I have with a lot of those ideas is that they seem like they would need additional buttons or at least button combos(tap strafe twice etc), and you would need to learn what the abilities are for each class, adding complexity, which is bad for new players. They also don't seem as skill intensive once you know them. Bunnyhopping is seamless and fairly intuitive if someone tells you the underlying concept(strafing and turning in the same direction while in the air accelerates you). It also works the same for all classes, minus the exception of marines requiring their landing spot to have a higher altitude(or a catpack)
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
I think PhyX is a great option 1. its free 2. everyone that has an 8800GT / GTS or up will be able to run it with hardware accelaration , as well as a lot of ATI people soon apparantly too, which is a very large chunk of gamers 3. its the only physics engine that i'm aware of that doesn't need to run on the cpu (what that does for performance is yet to be seen)
everything is sounding really promising for NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1684027:date=Jul 19 2008, 06:45 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jul 19 2008, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hum the thing with lighting, your in closed area rooms and tunnels, advanced lightings only just going to limit the market on people who can play it at 100%. most to every light sources is stationaly, sure it would be nice if you walked past a light it maps out a few raytraces and casts your shadow, each entity up to a max of three, then again maybe lua codeing will allow that to be modifyed even further to say each entity could cast 10 shadows at diff intencitys based on lighting strength. but honoustly the devs are going to make a choice that looks the best, doesnt hidden old computers and or add lagg be it server side or client, that is fairly stream line. basicly they will use common sence. and not dedicate heaps of additional man hours to getting the lighting perfect, that only 0.4% of players with machines fast enough can acctualy enjoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how its going to limit the market, you can buy video's cards today for like $150 which are more then capable of providing nice dynamic lighting and shadowing in current games. NS2 is still ages away by the sounds of it so the situation will only improve.
Having proper dynamic lighting and shadowing opens up a world of game play possibilities.
For example you could make light sources destructible, so what that allows is for aliens to create ambushes spots in the map where it was once not possible. For a counter the marines could have some sort of flash light / flare upgrade or use welders to repair the lights...
That is one example of how you could add more depth to the game play and strategy if they use this technology.
<!--quoteo(post=1684037:date=Jul 19 2008, 09:31 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Jul 19 2008, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think PhyX is a great option 1. its free 2. everyone that has an 8800GT / GTS or up will be able to run it with hardware accelaration , as well as a lot of ATI people soon apparantly too, which is a very large chunk of gamers 3. its the only physics engine that i'm aware of that doesn't need to run on the cpu (what that does for performance is yet to be seen)
everything is sounding really promising for NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> its not only phy<b>s</b>X...the Bullet Physics Engine is added to (blog, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItR87QtdBr4&feature=related" target="_blank">and here you see in action</a>)
and i completely agree with you kebab, i was how ever quoteing wildcat or rebuttleing he seamed to be asking for a newer better lighting, or pushing hte lighting technology out there, as apose to source, lighting methods, yes i want to see ns2 get a lighting revamp, one that adds atmosphere, but should i be exspecting a whole new way of shineing sun up a ducks arse, or lack there of, humm not when the devs are already doing so much for us.
if ones in the works wicked, but a few raytrace like lighting methods would be good, but i think if your pushing it past any thing that say F.E.A.R's amount of shadowing your prolly starting to limit the market, unless people tune there graphics down, but sure i want to see a skulk jump through the air and cast 3 shadows in the directions opposite there light sources with diff strenghts based on the light intency and the objects distance from said source. but this is all just speculation, we dont know hte engine we dont know its capabilitys, we do know that if some clown can hack the gamma, then 80% of the other clowns will follow suit after promptly climbing out of the miniture bettle with a hippy paint job as they walk in off the street, id rather see a decent lighting system that works, isnt hackable, although it will turn away some people, it got to be less than turning away all those that have to play on the lowest graphic setting to get a decent hit reg.
<!--quoteo(post=1684069:date=Jul 20 2008, 02:44 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jul 20 2008, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and i completely agree with you kebab, i was how ever quoteing wildcat or rebuttleing he seamed to be asking for a newer better lighting, or pushing hte lighting technology out there, as apose to source, lighting methods, yes i want to see ns2 get a lighting revamp, one that adds atmosphere, but should i be exspecting a whole new way of shineing sun up a ducks arse, or lack there of, humm not when the devs are already doing so much for us.
if ones in the works wicked, but a few raytrace like lighting methods would be good, but i think if your pushing it past any thing that say F.E.A.R's amount of shadowing your prolly starting to limit the market, unless people tune there graphics down, but sure i want to see a skulk jump through the air and cast 3 shadows in the directions opposite there light sources with diff strenghts based on the light intency and the objects distance from said source. but this is all just speculation, we dont know hte engine we dont know its capabilitys, we do know that if some clown can hack the gamma, then 80% of the other clowns will follow suit after promptly climbing out of the miniture bettle with a hippy paint job as they walk in off the street, id rather see a decent lighting system that works, isnt hackable, although it will turn away some people, it got to be less than turning away all those that have to play on the lowest graphic setting to get a decent hit reg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recommend Firefox 3...spell-check for the win.
The developers are well aware of the need to create a scalable engine. They aren't going to implement anything that pushes system requirements too far as they would just limit their potential audience. I think it's safe to assume this, rather than argue the merits of a feature based on its assumed/potential performance impact.
I haven't looked through all 10+ pages of the other thread, so sorry if these questions have been asked before...
Since it's based on the Quake way of doing things will it have bounced lighting etc?
Will vertex lit models actually look good, like HL2's, and not like UT3/2004's?
If it was dynamically lit then I guess I wouldn't need to worry about models lighting nicely, but I don't really get why everyone's pushing for dynamic shadows/lighting, since it's actually less realistic than lightmapping. With lightmapping you can pre-compute bounced lighting and get far more realistic looking worlds.
What I'd like would be a mix of Unreal/HL2, where you could choose from a simple direct light rendering method + ambient, which would be fast to render, but look a little flat (with ambient occlusion it'd look better). Just like you can do with the latest gile[s] beta (<a href="http://frecle.net/index.php?show=products§ion=giles&sub=screenshots" target="_blank">http://frecle.net/index.php?show=products&...sub=screenshots</a>). You get 3 choices with giles - direct+ambient (fast, doesn't look so nice), direct+ambient occlusion (fast, looks nice), GI (HL2-style, slow, looks nicest).
The guy who made giles is pretty open to chatting if you want to contact him.
Also, please re-arrange the editor and make it more like UnrealEd. It doesn't sound like you've used that editor from the podcast <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
will the "soon-to-be-ns2-engine" then moddable like the source engine is ? so people can get a sdk and make there own games using your engine as a base? (they would still have to buy the game)
<!--quoteo(post=1684089:date=Jul 20 2008, 11:16 AM:name=Seker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Seker @ Jul 20 2008, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->will the "soon-to-be-ns2-engine" then moddable like the source engine is ? so people can get a sdk and make there own games using your engine as a base? (they would still have to buy the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You also, please think 5 minutes of the day about the possibilities of an engine with LUA support...
Good blog entry. Jury's still out on the level editor for me, though, until I see more about the engine features and how these are implemented into the editor. I'm feeling more confident about the engine change in general after this post.
P.S. for the record I'm for keeping bunnyhopping in the game, provided it is easy to understand and accomplish, but still retains enough depth to offer benefits to refining a personal technique.
E.g. Lose the finickety crouch-jumping and simplify it to just a queued-up jump system (like Quake III Arena). But, keep the side-to-side strafe-curving so that knowledge alone is not enough - technique must also be honed. E.g. choosing the best 'bhopping line' for any given situation (kinda like a racing line but with added parameters like 'cover', 'speed modifiers' and 'misdirection').
<!--quoteo(post=1684088:date=Jul 20 2008, 11:14 AM:name=Stardog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stardog @ Jul 20 2008, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it was dynamically lit then I guess I wouldn't need to worry about models lighting nicely, but I don't really get why everyone's pushing for dynamic shadows/lighting, since it's actually less realistic than lightmapping. With lightmapping you can pre-compute bounced lighting and get far more realistic looking worlds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if they went the deffered rendering path it means map makers could use a crap load of lights that with ssao would lead to very much the same look!
Although it would be pretty heavy hardware wise but the big upside is map makers wouldn't have to sit there and compute light maps you could just hit play see it live and edit it live, much more intuitive for designing(they would have to get rid of pre computed bsp tree's to).
I doubt that would ever happen its just a pipe dream <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1684117:date=Jul 20 2008, 10:20 PM:name=Termy58)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Termy58 @ Jul 20 2008, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My very main concern on if I will buy this or not is if the graphics look as good.
I might lose interest if it just turns up like Iron Grip: Warlords (They switched to Quake engine and it looks like crap now)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reality is, graphics are a factor of the art team, at very very least as much as the engine, if not massively more. The original NS looked alot better then anything in the commercial release of halflife, and better then counterstrike, not because they improved the technology of the engine to a massive degree, but simply because they had better models, better animations, and far far better maps. Even if you look at first generation NS maps vs last generation ns maps, the newer maps are AMAZING. The maps rejected for official release, are generally in the area of twice as good as the maps that were in the first release.
With out a doubt, some visual things source was capable of will not be possible/done in the NS2 engine. But the ball is in the court of the art team to still make the project look good. And certainly, with good texture rendering and decent lighting, there will be nothing stopping the art team from making the game look good. An engine change generally won't make or break a project visually (workflow is an entirely different story though)
Oh boy maybe the damn hitbox bug will gone with new engine? (its already happend in team fortress 2...most you see with heavy if you behind a wall you die 3 meters behind) <img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2pqp16t.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1684121:date=Jul 21 2008, 02:10 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Price @ Jul 21 2008, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh boy maybe the damn hitbox bug will gone with new engine? (its already happend in team fortress 2...most you see with heavy if you behind a wall you die 3 meters behind) <img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2pqp16t.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a factor of the way networking works. Because you're as much as half a second off of every other player in the game simply due to the latency of the game basically asks both parties if they are being shot without actually being completely photo accurate to either of them. So what's happening, is you react to seeing your opponent, and get behind a wall, but he sees you a millisecond later dodging on his screen, so his actual reaction to your move doesn't get registered on your machine until you're already behind the wall, while on his machine he just shot you while you were in plain view.
Short of playing in the same room completely removing that bug is impossible. The game sort of tries to fix it by predicting where your movement is going to be next, but it can't really be ideally accurate there either, especially for fast moves, so sometimes you're actually showing your opponent more body then even you thought you were because the game is locating you very slightly off of where you thought you were moving.
Simply put, don't expect a software fix in your lifetime. Improving network hardware will help decrease those kinds of things significantly, so eventually we may see the hardware solutions fixing the problem, but unfortunately you just can't write a program to make net packets time travel.
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
<!--quoteo(post=1684123:date=Jul 21 2008, 09:35 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Jul 21 2008, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->unfortunately you just can't write a program to make net packets time travel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure Max can.
Cool! I love the direction NS is now going. Thanks for keeping us updated!
About the lighting discussion in general. I think agree with the comments promoting a better more advanced lighting system. Especially I like the comment about making lights that aliens can deactivate and marines then need to fix. And I'm pretty sure stuff like that will be included. That to me is the biggest advantage of a newer engine. Also I think it was mentioned as one of the effects that could come from Dynamic Infestation taking over a room.
and...
<!--quoteo(post=1684121:date=Jul 21 2008, 02:10 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Price @ Jul 21 2008, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh boy maybe the damn hitbox bug will gone with new engine? (its already happend in team fortress 2...most you see with heavy if you behind a wall you die 3 meters behind) <img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2pqp16t.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that a skulk taking the marines out in the last frame? lol, go skulk!
-1 Bhopping plz. It looks soooo stupid. I'd like to think we are past the point in gaming where you have to keep stupid crap like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never got the argument of it looking stupid tbh - its an alien?
and anyway, gameplay and fun should always be more important than immersion/graphics
-1 Bhopping plz. It looks soooo stupid. I'd like to think we are past the point in gaming where you have to keep stupid crap like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd find it more immersive to see an alien doing some weird jumpy thing then just running at me in a straight line.
I agree it looks kind of stupid for marines, but, gameplay>graphics. Doesn't matter how pretty your game is if no one's playing after the first few weeks.
<!--quoteo(post=1684132:date=Jul 21 2008, 06:53 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NeoSniper @ Jul 21 2008, 06:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and... Is that a skulk taking the marines out in the last frame? lol, go skulk!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
@bunnyhopping maybe they can remove that but add an advanced controll feature for the skulks?!
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
Im sorry....i just cant believe that writing an entirely new engine wont delay NS2.
Seriously, its an entire new engine. This is the thing that development teams of 100 people or more blame on delaying there game...but you guys have confidence that it wont?
<!--quoteo(post=1684182:date=Jul 21 2008, 03:50 PM:name=Alcapwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alcapwn @ Jul 21 2008, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im sorry....i just cant believe that writing an entirely new engine wont delay NS2.
Seriously, its an entire new engine. This is the thing that development teams of 100 people or more blame on delaying there game...but you guys have confidence that it wont?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Straight from the blog post that this thread is about:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Won't writing a new engine delay Natural Selection 2?</b>
We don't think so. Speeding up development and making progress more predictable were the major reasons we decided to create a new engine. We decided to make the switch about 5 months ago and now we have more of the game working than we did then when we started the transition.
Features are going in much faster now that we have technology designed for what we're trying to accomplish. We're spending a lot less time tracking down hard-to-find bugs and figuring out how to implement new gameplay features with the engine. So even though we have more to code, the net result is that it takes less time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
still its been stated that there will be a seprate area for servers modifyed, be it a whole new menu or a ticked box that needs to be unticked, they plan on keeping modded servers seperate from vanilla, so the new people dont go fom server to server saying how do i get the mini gun that shoots nukes i had one on this server. only to go into another server and have some rando mod just killing people when ever he feels like it.
so in theory amx wont even exsist cos a plugin shell has already been encorparated into the game, sure amx can be remade if the default plugin mod shell isnt as pretty or you cant have rainbow colored text. ether way a norm will become the flavor based on word of mouth and eye candy as well as modability esp if lamens can understand it.
Hence:
Advanced movement techniques:
-Wall jumping for skulks
-Charged jumps for skulks (the longer you hold the button the further you jump etc)
-Fixed Onos turn rate combined with locational damage (the old headshield debate)
-Attack timing has an impact on damage inflicted. (If you are too close you do not do full damage etc)
-Rolling or quick sidestepping for marines
-Gorge can ride a bacteria stream (think Iceman)
-Timed counterattacks for marines. (If enemy unit is skulk and leaping and in 50-60 units distance then marine quickly bashes incoming skulk with rifle butt)
-Fades loose blink and instead can cloak at will combined with a speed boost.
-Overhead wall hanging for lerks
-Maybe a R6 Vegas like cover system for rines
-Sprint function
There are lots of options to make movement more complex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I have with a lot of those ideas is that they seem like they would need additional buttons or at least button combos(tap strafe twice etc), and you would need to learn what the abilities are for each class, adding complexity, which is bad for new players. They also don't seem as skill intensive once you know them. Bunnyhopping is seamless and fairly intuitive if someone tells you the underlying concept(strafing and turning in the same direction while in the air accelerates you). It also works the same for all classes, minus the exception of marines requiring their landing spot to have a higher altitude(or a catpack)
1. its free
2. everyone that has an 8800GT / GTS or up will be able to run it with hardware accelaration , as well as a lot of ATI people soon apparantly too, which is a very large chunk of gamers
3. its the only physics engine that i'm aware of that doesn't need to run on the cpu (what that does for performance is yet to be seen)
everything is sounding really promising for NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I don't see how its going to limit the market, you can buy video's cards today for like $150 which are more then capable of providing nice dynamic lighting and shadowing in current games. NS2 is still ages away by the sounds of it so the situation will only improve.
Having proper dynamic lighting and shadowing opens up a world of game play possibilities.
For example you could make light sources destructible, so what that allows is for aliens to create ambushes spots in the map where it was once not possible. For a counter the marines could have some sort of flash light / flare upgrade or use welders to repair the lights...
That is one example of how you could add more depth to the game play and strategy if they use this technology.
1. its free
2. everyone that has an 8800GT / GTS or up will be able to run it with hardware accelaration , as well as a lot of ATI people soon apparantly too, which is a very large chunk of gamers
3. its the only physics engine that i'm aware of that doesn't need to run on the cpu (what that does for performance is yet to be seen)
everything is sounding really promising for NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its not only phy<b>s</b>X...the Bullet Physics Engine is added to (blog, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItR87QtdBr4&feature=related" target="_blank">and here you see in action</a>)
if ones in the works wicked, but a few raytrace like lighting methods would be good, but i think if your pushing it past any thing that say F.E.A.R's amount of shadowing your prolly starting to limit the market, unless people tune there graphics down, but sure i want to see a skulk jump through the air and cast 3 shadows in the directions opposite there light sources with diff strenghts based on the light intency and the objects distance from said source. but this is all just speculation, we dont know hte engine we dont know its capabilitys, we do know that if some clown can hack the gamma, then 80% of the other clowns will follow suit after promptly climbing out of the miniture bettle with a hippy paint job as they walk in off the street, id rather see a decent lighting system that works, isnt hackable, although it will turn away some people, it got to be less than turning away all those that have to play on the lowest graphic setting to get a decent hit reg.
if ones in the works wicked, but a few raytrace like lighting methods would be good, but i think if your pushing it past any thing that say F.E.A.R's amount of shadowing your prolly starting to limit the market, unless people tune there graphics down, but sure i want to see a skulk jump through the air and cast 3 shadows in the directions opposite there light sources with diff strenghts based on the light intency and the objects distance from said source. but this is all just speculation, we dont know hte engine we dont know its capabilitys, we do know that if some clown can hack the gamma, then 80% of the other clowns will follow suit after promptly climbing out of the miniture bettle with a hippy paint job as they walk in off the street, id rather see a decent lighting system that works, isnt hackable, although it will turn away some people, it got to be less than turning away all those that have to play on the lowest graphic setting to get a decent hit reg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recommend Firefox 3...spell-check for the win.
The developers are well aware of the need to create a scalable engine. They aren't going to implement anything that pushes system requirements too far as they would just limit their potential audience. I think it's safe to assume this, rather than argue the merits of a feature based on its assumed/potential performance impact.
Since it's based on the Quake way of doing things will it have bounced lighting etc?
Will vertex lit models actually look good, like HL2's, and not like UT3/2004's?
If it was dynamically lit then I guess I wouldn't need to worry about models lighting nicely, but I don't really get why everyone's pushing for dynamic shadows/lighting, since it's actually less realistic than lightmapping. With lightmapping you can pre-compute bounced lighting and get far more realistic looking worlds.
What I'd like would be a mix of Unreal/HL2, where you could choose from a simple direct light rendering method + ambient, which would be fast to render, but look a little flat (with ambient occlusion it'd look better). Just like you can do with the latest gile[s] beta (<a href="http://frecle.net/index.php?show=products§ion=giles&sub=screenshots" target="_blank">http://frecle.net/index.php?show=products&...sub=screenshots</a>). You get 3 choices with giles - direct+ambient (fast, doesn't look so nice), direct+ambient occlusion (fast, looks nice), GI (HL2-style, slow, looks nicest).
The guy who made giles is pretty open to chatting if you want to contact him.
Also, please re-arrange the editor and make it more like UnrealEd. It doesn't sound like you've used that editor from the podcast <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
so people can get a sdk and make there own games using your engine as a base?
(they would still have to buy the game)
Umbra
Babbler
so people can get a sdk and make there own games using your engine as a base?
(they would still have to buy the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You also, please think 5 minutes of the day about the possibilities of an engine with LUA support...
P.S. for the record I'm for keeping bunnyhopping in the game, provided it is easy to understand and accomplish, but still retains enough depth to offer benefits to refining a personal technique.
E.g. Lose the finickety crouch-jumping and simplify it to just a queued-up jump system (like Quake III Arena).
But, keep the side-to-side strafe-curving so that knowledge alone is not enough - technique must also be honed. E.g. choosing the best 'bhopping line' for any given situation (kinda like a racing line but with added parameters like 'cover', 'speed modifiers' and 'misdirection').
Well if they went the deffered rendering path it means map makers could use a crap load of lights that with ssao would lead to very much the same look!
Although it would be pretty heavy hardware wise but the big upside is map makers wouldn't have to sit there and compute light maps you could just hit play see it live and edit it live, much more intuitive for designing(they would have to get rid of pre computed bsp tree's to).
I doubt that would ever happen its just a pipe dream <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I might lose interest if it just turns up like Iron Grip: Warlords (They switched to Quake engine and it looks like crap now)
I might lose interest if it just turns up like Iron Grip: Warlords (They switched to Quake engine and it looks like crap now)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reality is, graphics are a factor of the art team, at very very least as much as the engine, if not massively more. The original NS looked alot better then anything in the commercial release of halflife, and better then counterstrike, not because they improved the technology of the engine to a massive degree, but simply because they had better models, better animations, and far far better maps. Even if you look at first generation NS maps vs last generation ns maps, the newer maps are AMAZING. The maps rejected for official release, are generally in the area of twice as good as the maps that were in the first release.
With out a doubt, some visual things source was capable of will not be possible/done in the NS2 engine. But the ball is in the court of the art team to still make the project look good. And certainly, with good texture rendering and decent lighting, there will be nothing stopping the art team from making the game look good. An engine change generally won't make or break a project visually (workflow is an entirely different story though)
<img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2pqp16t.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2pqp16t.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a factor of the way networking works. Because you're as much as half a second off of every other player in the game simply due to the latency of the game basically asks both parties if they are being shot without actually being completely photo accurate to either of them. So what's happening, is you react to seeing your opponent, and get behind a wall, but he sees you a millisecond later dodging on his screen, so his actual reaction to your move doesn't get registered on your machine until you're already behind the wall, while on his machine he just shot you while you were in plain view.
Short of playing in the same room completely removing that bug is impossible. The game sort of tries to fix it by predicting where your movement is going to be next, but it can't really be ideally accurate there either, especially for fast moves, so sometimes you're actually showing your opponent more body then even you thought you were because the game is locating you very slightly off of where you thought you were moving.
Simply put, don't expect a software fix in your lifetime. Improving network hardware will help decrease those kinds of things significantly, so eventually we may see the hardware solutions fixing the problem, but unfortunately you just can't write a program to make net packets time travel.
I'm sure Max can.
Cool! I love the direction NS is now going.
Thanks for keeping us updated!
-1 bh
About the lighting discussion in general. I think agree with the comments promoting a better more advanced lighting system. Especially I like the comment about making lights that aliens can deactivate and marines then need to fix. And I'm pretty sure stuff like that will be included. That to me is the biggest advantage of a newer engine. Also I think it was mentioned as one of the effects that could come from Dynamic Infestation taking over a room.
and...
<!--quoteo(post=1684121:date=Jul 21 2008, 02:10 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Price @ Jul 21 2008, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh boy maybe the damn hitbox bug will gone with new engine? (its already happend in team fortress 2...most you see with heavy if you behind a wall you die 3 meters behind)
<img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2pqp16t.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that a skulk taking the marines out in the last frame? lol, go skulk!
( +1 for skill based movement of sorts. )
-1 Bhopping plz. It looks soooo stupid. I'd like to think we are past the point in gaming where you have to keep stupid crap like this.
-1 Bhopping plz. It looks soooo stupid. I'd like to think we are past the point in gaming where you have to keep stupid crap like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never got the argument of it looking stupid tbh - its an alien?
and anyway, gameplay and fun should always be more important than immersion/graphics
-1 Bhopping plz. It looks soooo stupid. I'd like to think we are past the point in gaming where you have to keep stupid crap like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd find it more immersive to see an alien doing some weird jumpy thing then just running at me in a straight line.
I agree it looks kind of stupid for marines, but, gameplay>graphics. Doesn't matter how pretty your game is if no one's playing after the first few weeks.
Is that a skulk taking the marines out in the last frame? lol, go skulk!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
@bunnyhopping
maybe they can remove that but add an advanced controll feature for the skulks?!
Seriously, its an entire new engine. This is the thing that development teams of 100 people or more blame on delaying there game...but you guys have confidence that it wont?
Seriously, its an entire new engine. This is the thing that development teams of 100 people or more blame on delaying there game...but you guys have confidence that it wont?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straight from the blog post that this thread is about:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Won't writing a new engine delay Natural Selection 2?</b>
We don't think so. Speeding up development and making progress more predictable were the major reasons we decided to create a new engine. We decided to make the switch about 5 months ago and now we have more of the game working than we did then when we started the transition.
Features are going in much faster now that we have technology designed for what we're trying to accomplish. We're spending a lot less time tracking down hard-to-find bugs and figuring out how to implement new gameplay features with the engine. So even though we have more to code, the net result is that it takes less time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->