a collection of my ideas for Marine team and how they might work.

au.zilla · July 2008

<div class="IPBDescription">Includes: weapon ideas and mockups,team structure, and spawning.</div>the natural selection team has told us of two major changes that will affect the Marine team.
1. Marines will dynamically spawn in the field as opposed to spawning from IP's.
2. Marines will have the ability to buy their own weapons in stead of them being handed out by the Marine commander.
how these changes might work is up to speculation but I have a few suggestions as well as a few ideas of my own. Before I get into the meat of the post I'd like to say that for my ideas to work how I plan them in my head depends on the right mouse button being delegated to secondary fire instead of the drop-down menu from the original ns.

1. The Marine commander in the beginning of the game will start out by building an IP similar to the way IP's functioned in the original NS. Once the IP is built the commander will have the ability if he or she chooses, to phase in a Marine commando clone tank <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678368063/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678368063/</a> which sits on top of its respective IP. The commander will have the choice of one of three unique commandos, medic, technician, or pyrotechnic. Commando will serve as a mobile IPs, Marines will spawn at their sides. Commandos might be likened to hero units in games like war craft three or Dawn of war. Each tank purchased by the Marine commander will allow a specific commando to be respawned nine times before cellular deconstruction occurs and a new tank must be purchased. The commando clone tanks will be upgradable with armor and weaponry unique to the commando. if the commander chooses to upgrade his commando tanks, each time the commando is respawned he will spawn with the upgrades purchased in till the clone degenerates and must be repurchased.

the unique upgrades and abilities might be as follows.

Medic:
passive ability: every five seconds Marines in close proximity will be healed 10 HP
active ability: (activated by the commander) in close proximity repairs armor of Marines by 30 HP
unique equipment: combat knife boot( <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678351089/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678351089/</a> ), dart submachine gun, and adrenaline suit. (I will explain all of these later in the post)
phase ability: phase gate (each commando will give the commander the ability to phase in one type of preconstructed Marines structure at the commando's current position.)

Technician:
passive ability: every 45 seconds the technician will ping.
Active ability: (activated by the commander) automatically refills the clips of Marines in close proximity.
Unique equipment: heavy armor, spine launcher pack, and grenade pistol.
phase ability: siege cannon

Pyrotechnic:
passive ability: Marines in close proximity do more heat damage.
active ability: (activated by the commander) gives one grenade back to all Marines in proximity.
Unique equipment: heavy shotgun, flamed pistol, energy armor
phase ability: armory

2. The commander will still deal out the weapons at the armory like the original NS. Once the Marine picks up a weapon however he's able through the drop down menu to upgrade his weapon. Each gun will have two upgradable sections add-ons, and amenities. only one add-on may be purchased per gun. the flamethrower, grenade launcher and combat knife are all weapons that are powered by the Marine hand grenade. the grenade launcher simply launches them like rockets the flamethrower uses them as 30 second mini-fuel canisters and the combat knife uses only one grenade to eject all of the blades of the knife at high velocities.

light machine gun:
add-on choices: grenade launcher, flame thrower
amenity choices: laser sight, Incendiary ammunition

shotgun:
add-on choices: autoloader, double barrel
amenity choices: slugs (more accurate but no spread)

heavy machine gun: ammunition chain pack (doubles your clip capacity)
amenity choices: radiator

make the hand grenade slightly more effective and I think grenade launcher has become redundant.

explanation of some of my own upgrades and weapon ideas

if my ideas are adopted by the natural selection team aliens will have two ways of dying. one way will be by losing all of their HP exactly like the original NS. The other way will be by overheating. The adrenalin bar for the alien team will fill up instead of deplete. Each time a movie is used the alien wars heat up a little bit. The adrenaline bar will be cut into three pieces green yellow and red. Aliens cannot attack after the yellow bar is filled making it so they cannot accidentally pushed their adrenaline bar into the red. But if hit by a flamed-based attack like a flamethrower or grenade it will continue to fill their adrenaline bar. If the alien is stationary this causes little or no threat but if the added adrenaline bar is already partially filled one grenade may be able to set the alien over the red zone causing them to pop in boiling pus filled explosion.

dart pistol: single fire with a clip that holds five darts. a new pistol that shoots poisonous darts. The darts do no initial damage but causes the enemy to lose 2 HP per second for the next 15 seconds, stacks up to five times. In addition each shot slows the enemy by 10% of its movement speed. (be dart submachine gun shoots at a rate of eight darts per second and has a clip capacity of 20 but is only available to medic commando)

Grenade pistol: works like the grenade launcher add-on only available to the technician commando.

Flamed pistol: works like the flamethrower add-on only available to the pyrotechnic command.

Combat knife( <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678351089/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678351089/</a> ): the combat knife ejects the knife blade into the alien doing 10 additional points of damage as well as pinning small aliens i.e. skulk lurk and gorge. In order to successfully pin an alien you must strike both the alien and a surface i.e. the floor or walls. Crouching while striking diagonally downwards guarantees that you strike the floor as well as your alien target. a combat knife does not need to be purchased by the commander your knife can be upgraded similarly to the add ons for other guns. each combat knife has three ammunition which means you can use it twice before he turns back into a normal knife. ( the combat knife boot functions like a normal combat knife but can hold up to five knifes and since it is attached to the boot of the medic commando the reach is about twice as long.

adrenaline suit: only available to the medic commando. this armor causes its user to be constantly under the effect of adrenaline. It also negates the alien flashlight making the medic the perfect ninja.

energy armor: only available to the pyro commando. Energy armor goes on top of whatever armor the technician is already wearing. It provides 30 HP and once depleted will regenerate in 10 seconds if no new damage is accrued.

heavy shotgun: the heavy shotgun is basically three shotguns strapped together the primary fire shoots them one by one but more rapidly than even the auto loaded shotgun. The secondary fire shoots all three at once making it a great anti-fade weapon.

spine launcher: only available to the technician commando. This weapon works exactly like a heavy machine gun except its clip is even bigger and its rate of fire is just a smidgen faster. Conceptually the way the spine launcher works is it's a spool of wire being pulled through the gun by two large electromagnets the wire is cut at the end of the gun by a set of clippers turning it into individual bullets. ( <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678368069/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/28676264@N05/2678368069/</a> )this is a mockup I did a little while ago I don't much like it but it might help illustrate what I mean.

I know this is a lot to digest and these ideas have been swimming around in my head for a few weeks so if they aren't clear to everyone I understand but I'm looking forward to your questions and your comments. Even only one of these ideas makes it to the game I'll be extremely happy but I think this is a pretty cohesive way the Marine team could be structured.

PS this is my first post on these forums I've been lurking for a while and I hope to contribute lots more in the future. My screen name for natural selection is Godzilla. Also if anybody knows how to use the source editor I will pay them to teach me. My e-mail is au(at)Gmail(dot)com.

Harimau · July 2008

haven't read the rest of your post yet, but yeah, RMB is pretty much 100% going to be secondary fire.

spellman23 · July 2008

So, to boil this down, you're proposing 3 specialized units. The Medic, the Technician, and the Pyro. These three would help for the structure of a typical Marine squad or augment them with their abilities, and gain access to special equipment and abilities. Details explained.

These special units are also limited in number and only come from your proposed cloning tank, which is an addon to a IP.

A broad observation would be that this is structuring the Marines into a more class specialization system. NS1 uses an equipment system to determine role. Aliens use a class system. While you idea does not completely regiment the Marines into these classes, it is a step towards it.

I personally don't like the idea that essentially they become heroes. What I mean is that they are augmentations, better than the basic counterparts, without any drawbacks except for res cost. I assume it costs extra res to outfit someone as a commando class. I am pleased that they provide aural abilities for squads and they have commander activated abilities. This is perhaps a happy medium from everyone having commander activated abilities to none, giving a little more diversity to the commander babysitting. I'm also not a big fan of some of their weapons, for the reason they sound like they become super soldiers with a major advantage and no drawback except res cost.

What I am most intrigued about is your heat system. Basically it sounds very similar to vehicular overheating in some games including the mod Empires. Except if the Alien overheats, they die. While a nice idea to incorporate specific damage types, I'm not sure I agree with the implementation. In your system, you could essentially use up all of your adrenaline, and then a little heat still take you over the top. Unless you propose the red zone is "safe" until you max the bar, but while red you can't perform anything that requires adrenaline. It's a little unclear. I hope it's the second one.

Fundamentally it's a potential different avenue that the Marines could pursue instead of raw damage.

Other things that could hook into this is environmental effects. For example, the lava rooms might reduce the adrenaline regen, or colder rooms augment it. Which could be kinda cool. But they would have to be limited to one or two rooms in the map, otherwise the map would simply break down into Marine rooms and Alien rooms.

Overall, I don't like making Marines class based nor creating special heroes with little downside/counter except res starvation. However, some of the mechanics are really interesting such as the units being similar to a squad leader and the qualities that entails, and I wonder how others will like them.

But man, that's a long read. Do some spellchecking/grammer too, there's some hazy parts.

La Chupacabra · July 2008

by commandos you mean NPCs controlled by the computer? Don't think it fits the whole multiplayer (pvp) atmosphere... to make it "even", alien team would also require a computer controlled aliens that could be produced (and thus, giving the alien team a unit of defined "skill").

the second way of dying for aliens would mean that aliens would be unable to attack (and most often die because of that) or have to retreat often not to suacide by explosion... don't know what others think about that but I believe that it would be unbelievably irritating on the alien side

weapons that stun/poison (cause HP loss over time) have a bad reputation already on this forums, topics like those are formed from time to time so I will not go into the same discussions all over again, but to sum up: it's fun for some who wield such a weapon, but the other player on the other side of the gun thinks otherwise, especially it doesn't require much skill

it was a definitely good read since one can see you have put a lot of thought into it, including the way you organized your ideas, but I'm not a big fan of what you have suggested

CanadianWolverine · July 2008

Er, just to clarify a bit, are the Commando Clones:
- Controlled By:
a) Commander
b) AI
c) Marine
- Spawn Points
- Squad Leaders

Also, how does the proposed weld bot fit into this idea?

And finally, would this idea be ok if it was a robot (As in android or even cyborg or even a IP on wheels) instead of a clone? IMHO, I've always thought of the Marines themselves as clones/cyborgs and that is how they are able to spawn in repeatably and still be the same player, thus retaining all the previous memories of their previous clone/cyborgs, which also explains to me how they have such a close interface with machines aka nanites.

Edit: (I know I said finally) Upon re-reading the Original Post, IMHO, the ideas are cumulatively plainly biased towards the marine side, especially in light of the "over heat" adrenaline death. From how the OP reads to me, it seems unbalanced, since I gather it is to be taken as how the game would play out over-all. Sorry, not trying to be a downer, I just don't think the idea(s) is a good one as currently presented.

spellman23 · July 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jul 18 2008, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Edit: (I know I said finally) Upon re-reading the Original Post, IMHO, the ideas are cumulatively plainly biased towards the marine side, especially in light of the "over heat" adrenaline death. From how the OP reads to me, it seems unbalanced, since I gather it is to be taken as how the game would play out over-all. Sorry, not trying to be a downer, I just don't think the idea(s) is a good one as currently presented.</div>

Yeah, unfortunately there's no good Alien counters here. Especially on the heat/adren thing. That kind of stuff needs o get fleshed out a bit.

au.zilla · July 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Do some spellchecking/grammer too, there's some hazy parts.</div> I apologize if my OP was poorly written. I'm dyslexic and I use dictation software to do all my writing. if I'm not paying close attention poor grammar and incorrect words do slip through the cracks sometimes, again I apologize.

nobody so far has commented on my combat knife idea which, next to the adrenaline=heat mechanic, is my favorite idea I've contributed so far. My guess is nobody really bothered to click on the links to see my mockups so I'll include a picture in my post this time. [attachment=35842:knife1.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Unless you propose the red zone is "safe" until you max the bar, but while red you can't perform anything that requires adrenaline. It's a little unclear. I hope it's the second one.

Fundamentally it's a potential different avenue that the Marines could pursue instead of raw damage.</div>

This is actually what I meant.the red zones might vary in size for higher life forms making grenades and flamethrowers ideal counters for early-stage aliens. Whereas the raw damage weapons like the shotgun and HMG would be the preferable choice for hunting fades and onos. I also really like your idea of rooms having different heat qualities. Maybe for a balancing issue staying in a cold room for too long might cause the Marine damage. In one the earlier podcasts there was some talk about each room being self-contained including a heating system. This could add a level of dynamic play to a map. where Marines would try to keep the heating systems online and the aliens would try to chomp them down.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>by commandos you mean NPCs controlled by the computer?</div>

absolutely not NPC Marines would ruin natural selection, in my humble opinion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What I mean is that they are augmentations, better than the basic counterparts, without any drawbacks except for res cost</div>

I see what you mean, I do like the idea of some weapons being only available to the commando. For the way I structured it the commando units would probably be too important or too good compared to the rest of the Marine team. what if instead of all these different upgrades they only had specialized pistols and armor available to them. but I do like the passive and active abilities as well as being able to phase in certain technologies. also something to think about is the fact that in the original NS a good commander outfits his best marines with the expensive technology i.e. HAs, JPs, and HMGs. Although my commandos have abilities which make them more important than other Marines this already happens, to a certain extent, without this class-based idea.

spellman23 · July 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(au.zilla @ Jul 18 2008, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>nobody so far has commented on my combat knife idea which, next to the adrenaline=heat mechanic, is my favorite idea I've contributed so far. My guess is nobody really bothered to click on the links to see my mockups so I'll include a picture in my post this time.</div>

The problem is it's kinda hazy. Just like the adrenaline suit, which gets almost no coverage on what the "constant effect of adrenaline" actually does. Unless you're talking about an adrenaline/heat system for Marines as well as Aliens.

If I'm reading this right, you're suggesting that for a number of strikes you have combat knives instead of your normal one, and they can potentially pin enemies. You seem to describe some sort of firing mechanisms in some other parts as well.

I don't like pinning things. The knife is a weapon of last resort, and using it as an opener to pin Aliens to walls/floors is simply poor. Especially if you think about the larger ones. A double does of pain is the ability to lock them onto the floor. Perhaps the walls, but floors? Talk about open with a barrage of knives and then free potshots for everyone. At least with knives only sticking in walls the Aliens have to be near a wall or on the ceiling.

Assuming you're talking about only melee (no launching), it's a little more feasible and basically is an upgraded knife with serious repercussions if it hits a Gorge or Skulk. Not a Lerk, unless it's a walker Lerk, in which case it deserved to die anyways. It boils down to extra damage plus possible pin if they're not jumping like mad, for extra res upgrade.

If it has limited ammo and melee, does that mean only so many swipes or so many hits? I hope swipes to help make balance much more palpatable.

But yeah, let's leave melee on Marines as last resort possible. I personally like the ranged versus melee dynamics of NS1.

As far as how to trim them down, I'd actually prefer they keep the passive and commander activated abilities, but slim down the extra arsenal and drop the instant building drop. Perhaps a unique attachment or two, but at the expense of the original attachments normally available. This helps make them support characters or squad augmenters, not super heroes. This also keeps them under the idea they are supposed to be better and are simply augmented in a field. Just not one-man army breaking.

Harimau · July 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jul 18 2008, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>But man, that's a long read. Do some spellchecking/grammer too, there's some hazy parts.</div>
grammar*

oh and i liked the mockups, btw. it's also a refreshing change from the Walls of Text that make up the I&S forums. but maybe you coulda used the [img] tags for better exposure.

SpiceWeasel[ABC] · August 2008

Not to be a downer but after playing dozens of shooters that had "spawning in the field" i have to put in the obvious problem that has plagued all but one of them............ Spawn camping takes on a WHOLE new form of lame when you have the guy spawning you walking around in enemy areas or you spawn in plain sight of ranged attacks......... The only effective counter i have seen to this is the system day of defeat used after they implemented the system back in the beta days. They had enclosed spawn areas that once the lines had moved up would become active. These spawn points couldn't be shot into and if you got close enough to lob grenades gun turrets dressed up as comoed MG emplacements mowed you down thus keeping you from spawning and dying instantly 8zillion times.

Now if it was me and the game was NS my idea would consist of spawn locations much like in Dystopia where you spawn in as a group in a room that was already made for it but here is the NS version. Instead of moving the lines with the marines what you could do is have these spawn locations scattered around the map that the marines could Weld into working order such as repairing a door than the individual spawners etc. Then you give the COM a choice on where he wants each squad to spawn. So he could pick to have squad one spawn at the base and squad 2 spawn near the second hive location. You could even give the aliens ways to sabotage the spawn areas or make them even harder to repair before they get to them.

Dalin Seivewright · August 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jul 18 2008, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>And finally, would this idea be ok if it was a robot (As in android or even cyborg or even a IP on wheels) instead of a clone? IMHO, I've always thought of the Marines themselves as clones/cyborgs and that is how they are able to spawn in repeatably and still be the same player, thus retaining all the previous memories of their previous clone/cyborgs, which also explains to me how they have such a close interface with machines aka nanites.</div>

I think the actual concept of the IP involves the collection of the molecules of the marine (perhaps they're all tagged or recorded or something so that a scanner can pick the individual molecules up). When a marine dies, their molecules are collected somehow and put together in a buffer (much like Star Trek and their transporters) and then the marine is 'spawned'. This concept is used in many FPS including UT (not as evident unless you watch the cinematics) and I believe Devestation also used a similar concept for their re-spawning.

Anyways...
As a side opinion on the field spawning they are apparently implementing in NS2 (I somehow missed this update?) I imagine floating devices that 'materialize' or come out of some structure and however around the play field and when they find a decent position to spawn a player they'll re-materialize their molecules by shooting downwards a beam of energy onto the ground and the marine will be constructed bottom up.

As for the AI controlled commando idea (to be honest I didn't read very much of the post, just what people have responded with) I don't think its a great idea to have one specific unit controlled by the AI unless its some portable turret or portable robot defense that roams the base. I believe in the idea that their the entire team is controlled by an AI or the entire team minus the comm is controlled by the AI :\ Mixing AI opponents with live opponents on the same team either unbalances the teams in favor of the attacking team or unbalances the teams in favor of the defending team.

If an AI controlled bot is basically an Aimbot (even if both teams can build one) then there's not much sense for live players to play at all as all their kills will be stolen by their bot and they'll be killed by the enemy bot.

a collection of my ideas for Marine team and how they might work.

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