Evolution Revolution.
Wyattx3
Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
I have been playing Spore off and on since its release, and I thought of an interesting idea for NS2.
<b>Overall Idea</b>
<ul><li><b>Alien Classes & Evolution</b></li></ul>
Each Kharaa species would become an individual "class." Every class will be open no matter how many hives, how resources your team has. However, when you choose the class you want to play, you will spawn as a low-level form of the original species. For example, if you choose the "Lerk" species, the starting lerk may have wings, but might not have evolved the organs nescesary to create and shoot poisonous gas.
However, as the game progresses and as you kill/destroy/build/heal/damage -whatever- your chosen class will evovle into a much more dangerous form both physically and visually. You can gain more health, armor, abilities, horns, tendrils, slime etc.
<b>What would this mean?</b>
For one, you can choose your playstyle right off the bat.
If you like to play as a specific species, like Fade or Lerk. But don't like skulking, waiting for resources, spending said resources on other things like resource towers/chambers/hives. You can start out right away as a low-level fade with the basic abilities, but on a balanced level for low tech marine combat.
Or if you love skulking the whole game, but feel underpowered against Heavy Armor/HMG marines, and feel forced to go Fade in order to make any kind of substantial difference. An end game skulk whos evolved to the peak power of 'skulkitude' could be a powerful stalker/scout and ambusher against high tech marines.
Basically, it would be a dramatic change from the old style rat race for hives and resources, and would encourage greater diversity between players for aliens.
As for the thread, I'm not sold on this idea either, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss. And thats what I would like to do, discuss the idea. I'm not interested in one lined opinions, If you don't think the idea could work, or don't like it say why, and we can discuss it.
<b>Overall Idea</b>
<ul><li><b>Alien Classes & Evolution</b></li></ul>
Each Kharaa species would become an individual "class." Every class will be open no matter how many hives, how resources your team has. However, when you choose the class you want to play, you will spawn as a low-level form of the original species. For example, if you choose the "Lerk" species, the starting lerk may have wings, but might not have evolved the organs nescesary to create and shoot poisonous gas.
However, as the game progresses and as you kill/destroy/build/heal/damage -whatever- your chosen class will evovle into a much more dangerous form both physically and visually. You can gain more health, armor, abilities, horns, tendrils, slime etc.
<b>What would this mean?</b>
For one, you can choose your playstyle right off the bat.
If you like to play as a specific species, like Fade or Lerk. But don't like skulking, waiting for resources, spending said resources on other things like resource towers/chambers/hives. You can start out right away as a low-level fade with the basic abilities, but on a balanced level for low tech marine combat.
Or if you love skulking the whole game, but feel underpowered against Heavy Armor/HMG marines, and feel forced to go Fade in order to make any kind of substantial difference. An end game skulk whos evolved to the peak power of 'skulkitude' could be a powerful stalker/scout and ambusher against high tech marines.
Basically, it would be a dramatic change from the old style rat race for hives and resources, and would encourage greater diversity between players for aliens.
As for the thread, I'm not sold on this idea either, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss. And thats what I would like to do, discuss the idea. I'm not interested in one lined opinions, If you don't think the idea could work, or don't like it say why, and we can discuss it.
Comments
For one, you can choose your playstyle right off the bat.
...
Or if you love skulking the whole game, but feel underpowered against Heavy Armor/HMG marines, and feel forced to go Fade in order to make any kind of substantial difference. An end game skulk whos evolved to the peak power of 'skulkitude' could be a powerful stalker/scout and ambusher against high tech marines.</i>
<b>Basically, it would be a dramatic change from the old style rat race for hives and resources</b>...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love the italicized part but I think the bolded part is too much of a drawback if it worked that way. Alternatively, you could have upgrades dependent on resources like they are now, but be more extensive and class specific.
The main drawback to the alternative suggestion is that you get "locked" into that lifeform for the game. Maybe if you kept the upgrade system we have now, but had them cost 2 res again, and truly unchained the upgrades from the chambers, while leaving the number of upgrades hive dependent...
It would actually prefer that you could change in between each species either by gestating or by next spawn. I think the issue you would have though is, do you retain your progress? Like Level "3" (arbitrary number) skulk has been playing as skulk the entire game and then decides to change to an onos. Should they be the same or back to square 1. But thats a balancing issue and really has nothing to do with the over all idea.
I just don't like the beggining of NS classic on alien side, for several reasons.
1. For new players they don't often know what to do, and to be honest every single person has no idea what they're supposed to be doing when they spawn as a skulk for the first time. Theres no distinctive roles. And its hard to find out whats going on, whos doing what, whos saving for what, without alot of good communication.
2. Certain playstyles are forced on a player. Skulking/Gorging in the earlier parts. Lerk/Fade/Onos later on. And while each defenitly play disctinctive roles throughout a match, theres certain things that have to get done, and sometimes you don't want to do it, but do it anyways, for example: Dropping a hive/chambers, fading/lerking.
If I'm reading this right, you want to implement different classes in which you progress through a certain style instead of how each class now is made by spending res to evolve to a "better" class, even though they have different playstyles.
I think a major tweak is how you "progress". On one hand, you could work by personal res, and spend it to upgrade your class. Or, by some kind of "experience" system. I would promote a mix. i.e. building and welding and such level you up, as well as killing enemies. Kill assists get you some, but not as much.
There's also the issue of progression. Is there a linear progression (Skulk1, Skulk2, Skulk3) or an upgrade tree (Diablo2 skill system) or upgrade perks (Empires Mod upgrades). To elaborate on the last one, upgrade perks, you at all times have available a certain set of independent upgrades, and can choose which ones to get. Potentially you can place more than one point in one upgrade. There would also have to be class specific upgrades in all of the systems. I'm more of a fan of the independent upgrade system, but a skill tree system could also work. I also recommend the ability (if skill tree or independent) to buy or sell upgrades at whim.
As far as keeping experience, I see why not. Empires allows you to keep your experience points between classes, and you can take and remove upgrades between spawns. You can even refit if you stand in a spawn building. Not sure how that would work in NS2, but changing classes should not hinder you. Otherwise, you lose the ability to change tactics by shifting the class type composition on the team. Suddenly you might need more people on the 'Lerk' class, but people don't want to change and become a low-level useless 'Lerk' since they're an upgraded Fade or Skulk.
Anyways, enough rambling. My biggest complaint is this becoming more of a RPG system than a class selection system. It has to be kept simple. See Empires and Dystopia for fairly solid class systems and how they deal with them.
Say you had a level 2 fade, he also had this this and this upgrade,
You switch to a skulk, and instead of going level 2 again with simular upgrades, you go full skulk, like empires.
Say why, or you're not helping anyone.
And yes NS game play is good, but its by far not the best, and I also sometimes feel change in a game I love is always bad, but sometimes it isn't. So lets discuss what parts you don't like, and why, otherwise don't post stupid little 1 sentence garbage. This is a forum not an opinion poll.
Also in order to make this idea work, you also have to do the same for the marine, because remember a Fade without upgrade is still VERY DEADLY, imagine the whole team going fade in the first 1 minutes and rush the crap out of the marine base and win in an instance. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" />> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> So for balancing, the marine also have to get Heavy on the start, which pretty much bring us back to the version game type we already have...
-Which is COMBAT
Upgrading due to progress is VERY SIMILAR to Combat, get frags to better oneself, I do not know if we going to have Combat on NS2. But I would suggest this idea to benefit and improve on Combat game mode, because in order to get this to work on Classic mode would take more time Redeveloping the game.
=ALL HAIL THE OVERMIND!!!!!!!!
And yes NS game play is good, but its by far not the best, and I also sometimes feel change in a game I love is always bad, but sometimes it isn't. So lets discuss what parts you don't like, and why, otherwise don't post stupid little 1 sentence garbage. This is a forum not an opinion poll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess my short post was a little complicated for you. Let me break it down.
Opinion: Do not like it.
Parts I don't like: "it" and all that "it" entails.
Why: Would dramatically change NS gameplay I already love.
I'd break it down further, but before you know it I'd be trying to tell you that the letter "b" makes a "buh" sound, still uncertain of your comprehension.
Instead, let me suggest that we replace the alien team with robots. Please, discuss what parts you don't like, and why. c wut i did thar
Also in order to make this idea work, you also have to do the same for the marine, because remember a Fade without upgrade is still VERY DEADLY, imagine the whole team going fade in the first 1 minutes and rush the crap out of the marine base and win in an instance. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" />> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> So for balancing, the marine also have to get Heavy on the start, which pretty much bring us back to the version game type we already have...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 Major points.
1) You seem to have missed my post where I said you should gain points/xp from a variety of things. For example, in Dystopia and Empires you gain points by healing, building, using abilities, and kills. Not just kills. Similarly, Wolfiestein Enemy Territory has three areas you could gain levels in, each dedicated to certain things. Combat sense was upgraded if you survived battles, medic if you gave heals and revives, and light weapons for shooting and killing enemies. If you were a Field Ops, giving ammo and calling in airstrikes gave points in Field ops.
2) As far as balance goes, you seem to have missed the part where everyone starts off very weak, no matter which class they are in. Instead, they are a certain type of Alien, but all of equivalent strength. So, a Lv1 Fade would be about a useful as a Lv1 Skulk, just a different play style. Fades would hit and run, Skulks would ambush. And both can get mowed down easily by a few good aiming Marines. So, no, you don't need classes on the other side, and yes it can be balanced early game.
However, I do see some merit in a partial class system in Marines. I don't like it since Marines have always been more equipment based, but it is possible Marine classes may help people find a role easier.
My main concern is that better players will inevitably grow more powerful and weaker ones left in the dust. In some ways, however, that already happens with res-for-kills. Also, we don't want to mix RPG too much into our already complicated FPS/RTS. Savage did the RPG element just fine, or should I say not that great imo.
Anyways, I'm still not a huge fan, but please think your criticism through a little more.
Opinion: Do not like it.
Parts I don't like: "it" and all that "it" entails.
Why: Would dramatically change NS gameplay I already love.
I'd break it down further, but before you know it I'd be trying to tell you that the letter "b" makes a "buh" sound, still uncertain of your comprehension.
Instead, let me suggest that we replace the alien team with robots. Please, discuss what parts you don't like, and why. c wut i did thar<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you don't have any constructive criticism to add then don't say anything at all
i like your idea its means that the countless players who play as skulk in the late game won't
just be cannon fodder for the HMG's and GLs but i think that you should not base the gain off of kills
but of res that way you don't have to be mega-uber-skilled to even upgrade a little bit but thats just my thoughts
And the reason I suggested this idea was to get more diversity in the endgame of NS2. NS usually always ends up in fades vs Heavys or JPs ( Depending on what the trend is. ). Even in competetive gaming, they were even less diverse than public games which were already extremely similar.
Unless you plan on doing away with requirements that's still impossible.
1) You seem to have missed my post where I said you should gain points/xp from a variety of things. For example, in Dystopia and Empires you gain points by healing, building, using abilities, and kills. Not just kills. Similarly, Wolfiestein Enemy Territory has three areas you could gain levels in, each dedicated to certain things. Combat sense was upgraded if you survived battles, medic if you gave heals and revives, and light weapons for shooting and killing enemies. If you were a Field Ops, giving ammo and calling in airstrikes gave points in Field ops.
2) As far as balance goes, you seem to have missed the part where everyone starts off very weak, no matter which class they are in. Instead, they are a certain type of Alien, but all of equivalent strength. So, a Lv1 Fade would be about a useful as a Lv1 Skulk, just a different play style. Fades would hit and run, Skulks would ambush. And both can get mowed down easily by a few good aiming Marines. So, no, you don't need classes on the other side, and yes it can be balanced early game.
However, I do see some merit in a partial class system in Marines. I don't like it since Marines have always been more equipment based, but it is possible Marine classes may help people find a role easier.
My main concern is that better players will inevitably grow more powerful and weaker ones left in the dust. In some ways, however, that already happens with res-for-kills. Also, we don't want to mix RPG too much into our already complicated FPS/RTS. Savage did the RPG element just fine, or should I say not that great imo.
Anyways, I'm still not a huge fan, but please think your criticism through a little more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not totally disagree with everything you said, you didn't read all of my post that's why. I told you that this idea is okay, and it should be use for the COMBAT game mode in NS because it is very similar to it.
On "1)" I told you already that, your idea is similar to those type of mod like "Jail Break" and all those other thing you mention. The reason why I didn't recommend to have this on Classic Game Mode is because what you suggesting would change the whole ideas of FPS/RTS game play that NS have, NS would not be NS anymore it would be something like Dystopia and Empires. That why I suggest to do this on COMBAT mode which ARE similar.
"2) As far as balance goes, you seem to have missed the part where everyone starts off very weak, no matter which class they are in. Instead, they are a certain type of Alien, but all of equivalent strength" To say that a Fade have the same attack power as a skulk but you forgot one thing. A Fade have 300 hp and 150 in armor, Fade can kill off 2 marine soldiers and left with a decent amount of health, there is noway marine can compete with 300 hp and 150 armor when all they have is the lmg pellets gun.
And don't worry about the weaker one part, everyone start out as a noob, and there would be some tutorial on NS2 that help them learn basic things.
Remember "show the noob how to drink, but never spoon feed him"
They wouldn't be the Onos as they are now at the beggining, they would be a smaller, weaker version, that plays similar to a Onos. More armor/health than a skulk, but slower/ less mobile.
Like I said before, its a matter of which play style you like the most. And I'm not trying to push to get this idea into NS2, just discussing something thats different. Which may, or may not be better.
It could work, but the RTS aspect and having longer epic battles is something many, many people in the community have asked for. If there are elements from this idea that work within the framework, then I could see strong support arising for those concepts. As of yet, I have not seen the language in this topic for any such specifics.
With that said, a increase public awareness and developer focus on "evolution options" for the Kharaa is a great thing to emphasize. So thank you for piquing people's interest in the evolution options.
After all... the game shouldn't be called Natural-Selection for nothing, ya know?
On "1)" I told you already that, your idea is similar to those type of mod like "Jail Break" and all those other thing you mention. The reason why I didn't recommend to have this on Classic Game Mode is because what you suggesting would change the whole ideas of FPS/RTS game play that NS have, NS would not be NS anymore it would be something like Dystopia and Empires. That why I suggest to do this on COMBAT mode which ARE similar.
"2) As far as balance goes, you seem to have missed the part where everyone starts off very weak, no matter which class they are in. Instead, they are a certain type of Alien, but all of equivalent strength" To say that a Fade have the same attack power as a skulk but you forgot one thing. A Fade have 300 hp and 150 in armor, Fade can kill off 2 marine soldiers and left with a decent amount of health, there is noway marine can compete with 300 hp and 150 armor when all they have is the lmg pellets gun.
And don't worry about the weaker one part, everyone start out as a noob, and there would be some tutorial on NS2 that help them learn basic things.
Remember "show the noob how to drink, but never spoon feed him"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I totally agree with you on point 1. It would be a major shift in the way the game is played. Aliens become more point based / RPG, which is something that is more conductive to Combat. Also, please note Empires is very much a RTS/FPS, just a bit more RTS than NS due to larger maps, vehicles, cheaper and more effective turrets, and a larger tech tree. These levels are merely nice small boosts to reward better players, like an extra 10% health or the ability to become invisible based on how many walls you're touching.
As for 2, I was thinking that they would be balanced in all points. For example, the Fade would have a more powerful, but lower refire rate melee attack, a quick blink (not as fast as it is now, or cost a lot of adren), and weaker health. So, basically rebuild the Aliens from scratch so that they have a particular archetype (ambush, hit and run, flying/spell caster, slow tank, etc.), and all have equivalent strengths and weaknesses. In other words, don't think of a Lv1 Fade in this system (or Radix's Onos) in terms of NS1 health/dmg/abilities, but re-work them into a new balance and give skills/abilities based on their roles.
So, say a Lv1 Fade would have 100hp, a slow single melee, and a blink that costs a lot of adren, and larger hitbox and slower base move than a Skulk. So, it can only practically be played as a jump in, hit maybe once, then run. Sticking around to hit twice to blink around to dodge would get you killed until you got a few more levels and became the terror the NS1 Fade is today.
<!--quoteo(post=1689136:date=Sep 30 2008, 10:17 AM:name=ryknow69)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ryknow69 @ Sep 30 2008, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spellman, y not use the main concept from combat, the game will calculate the levels on your team, usally with the highest then subtract a certain amount of levels and you are rewarded, this can mostly just up u to 2, or 3 points to use on these upgrades or these evolves. like combat yes, but used for the general NS combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, so you mean scale up experience so it's hard to lag behind the team? i.e. building might usually only give 1 point, but if the rest of the team is 3 levels higher, it might give 2 points to help you catch up. Or, healing 100hp to a Alien 5 levels higher might give 2 instead of 1 point, or helping destroy a Marine building when they have equivalent 3 levels higher would give more points. At least that's what I think you're talking about.
That's an interesting item, though. How would you make an equivalent Marine level to calculate the modifiers?
OK, so a latejoin feature. Smart idea. Forgot about that.
<!--quoteo(post=1688941:date=Sep 26 2008, 01:50 PM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyattx3 @ Sep 26 2008, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every class will be open no matter how many hives, how resources your team has. However, when you choose the class you want to play, you will spawn as a low-level form of the original species.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets say that each hive unlocks a new level of evolution for each class.
I will use the Onos as an example: (other classes would evolve in a similar way)
At the start of the game, you could choose to be an onos as soon as you have the res points for it.(I'll assume hive1 onos costs less than hive3) This hive1 Onos would have a different player model that would look kind of like a gorge except with the onos armor plates and a horn in the front. Its HP and speed would be maybe a little higher than a gorge's so it would be easy enough to kill. This hive1 onos could still have the same attacks, they would just be less effective. For example: Gore has an attack bonus against structures. I don't think that devour would be available at hive1.
At Hive2, the onos must gestate to become a hive2 onos. If he dies, he respawns as a hive1 onos and can gestate to become a hive2 onos. This onos would be bigger than the hive1 version and have more Speed, HP, and Addrenaline. The devour and stomp attacks would now be available, but stomp would only stun a marine for half the time of a NS1 onos and devour would take a much longer time to digest a marine.
A Hive 3 onos would be your full blown Onos. You still spawn as a hive1 onos and gestate twice to get to hive3 onos. This onos has full HP, Adrenaline, Speed, and all of the Onos attacks available at full strength.
The classes that would be really interesting with this would be the skulk and gorge. These classes would actually get better with each hive evolution. gorges could build faster, build different structures, heal faster, and improve in other ways with more hives. Skulks could do more damage, improved speed/movement abilities, HP, etc ,etc...
The Fade and Lerk would have similar intermediate forms that would have varying levels of attacks, HP, and speed, Depending on the number of Hives.
I don't know if that is what you had in mind or not, but I took a shot at it. I am not sure how chamber abilities will fit in.
This may not be the best direction for NS to go in, but it is definitely interesting and would certainly require some rebalancing on the marine side.
Example: if a lerk kill someone with bite, they get better damage, sharper teeth, etc. If they kill someone with spore their spore gets better..etc. If a gorge killed someone with spit they would get an improved spit, more healing..improved healing.
More structure's a skulk bites...more damage it does to structures...
Not major increases, just minor, and perhaps a graphical change to the players model.
@EmpV
Yes, i like that a bit, maybe having the extra 4th and 5th level after hive could progress the aliens further, but requires massive res and kill requirements, making these for the pros of pros, but not too hard where newbs never get the fun of them.
Having the aliens get better per hive is logical too, if the 'Alien'(marine) threat is greater, the Kharaa add more hives to gain a higher survival rate, another one when the marines get a even higher threat level, but thats for logical means, ingame it will be the gorges making them for gameplay reasons.