Zero Gravity And View Rotation in NS2

EmpV · November 2008

<div class="IPBDescription">Think of the possibilities!</div>NS2 will be using a new game engine, so many things could now be possible? One of these possiblilities could be <b>Gravity</b>.
(Or lack there of <span style="color:#FFFF00">"<b>Zero G</b>"</span>)

This may be impossible, but I am going to assume for a moment that it is possible. Zero Gravity or "Zero G" would allow for some amazing game mechanics.

Since many NS map locations are based in outer space, these locations must have some kind of artificial gravity system. This means that this <b><span style="color:#00FFFF">gravity system can be broken/turned off</span></b> for specific locations.

And now some crazy new gameplay ideas:<ul><li>Dynamic Infestation could interfere with artificial gravity in some way or cancel it out.</li><li>Gravity could be disabled/repaired/enabled in certain locations of a map.</li><li>Marines could have magnetic boots that would allow them to keep their feet planted.</li><li><span style="color:#00FF00"><b>Marines and aliens could walk up walls or stand on ceilings in zero G areas</b></span> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /></li></ul><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><b>Combine Zero G and View Rotation and things get really interesting!</b></span>

There was a podcast that talked about view rotation for skulks. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/12/skulk_view_rotation_from_the_archives" target="_blank">Skulk view rotation, from the archives</a>
It was not used in NS1 because it was developed after NS1 was launched and it was decided to be somewhat disorientating. However, Max also posted this :
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max)</div><div class='quotemain'>"Having proper view alignment for the Skulk is something we'll probably be revisiting for Natural Selection 2. Both of the major hurdles we had originally no longer exist, and I like to think we're a little bit smarter now too (maybe that was the third, unidentified hurdle). One of the things that really sets Natural Selection apart from other games is how different the alien side feels from your standard first-person shooter experience. Watching this old video gets me pumped to take that to the next level!"</div>

<b><span style="color:#00FFFF">View rotation could be a big part of zero G. And not just for skulks.</span></b> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
<ul><li>Marines in a Zero G room could walk up a wall and stand upside down on the ceiling with magnetic boots and their view could rotate automatically with their player model.</li><li>Marines could have limited movement speed in zero G rooms and have to be careful not to get stuck floating in the air.</li><li>Maybe DI could generate a special gravity that only affects aliens and keeps them from floating off the DI. </li><li>Or maybe DI cancels out normal artificial gravity for marine players, forcing them to use magnetic boots.</li></ul>

There are so many gameplay options opened up by this! And I'm just scratching the surface.

I dont think entire maps should be zero G, but With proper room design, I think this could have a major place in NS2.

I got the idea from watching some video of the game "Dead Space". They have a great Zero G implementation. Heres a video that shows it. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdk9PsOqbdQ" target="_blank">Dead Space Zero G Video</a>

What do you all think?

slayer20 · November 2008

If Zero G was added within NS2, it would have to be used sparingly.

I would love to see DI start forming pillars and arches and stuff within Zero G.

But if Zero G were to be added, maps should make their Zero G rooms similar to those in Dead Space.

And there would have to be special brush entities for mappers to set areas that Marines or certain Aliens can't walk on.

Lord Schnitzel · November 2008

Yes, Zero-G would make things more interessting - and more complicated when it's combined with view rotation. If you've ever playerd alien vs Predator you'll know what I talk about. It's sooo easy to lose orientation and can get really frustrating.
However I agree that LOW-G could be a nice touch (unless it's used too often). Some mappers tried to have low-g in their maps but you have to use force_push (AFAIK) so simulate LOW-G wich is rather buggy and laggy.

"Gravity centers" could be a nice touch, too. Imagine some sort of Generator/device that creates a gravity field that slowly pulls players in if they get too near and influence grenades direktion in midair and stuff.

My concern (besides the potential irritation and harder navigation) is that the things you talk about require special equipment like magnetic boots. I suggest to keep things simple where possible. Floor's down, ceiling's up.

the_x5 · November 2008

This reminds me how Prey did some really interesting things with changing gravity fields which even became amazing gameplay aspects. If only they had developed on the computer first. (a testament to how hard it is to be an independent game developer in today's world)

New posibilites with gravity manipulation present some amazing new possibilites both to the level designer (aka. mapper) and the gameplay of the players (all kinds of new multiplayer tricks and effective skill styles could be found when the public base begins to sprout the beginnings of organized competitive play). The benefits of exploring this are definitely worth it from a gameplay and innovation stand point, the only true downside is the cost and technical difficulty in implementing such a creative concept.

Regardless, this idea gets a...

<b>vote <span style="color:#00DD00">yes</span></b>

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

spellman23 · November 2008

Also, see Dystopia's cyberworld for crazy gravity rotation. It's pretty sweet.

I also agree that pure zero G can get really weird. Also, can you launch yourself from wall to wall? Most systems don't have this because you can't change direction in the air in a real physics environment. However, if used properly, it could be fun, but as said above, use sparingly.

the_x5 · November 2008

I wonder what the extent of the Lua modifying capabilities of the NS2 engine are... Somehow this seems to me to be something which needs implementation at the low-level physics code, or it's going to be atrociously buggy.

invader Zim · November 2008

i think this is an awsome idea and id like to see it, however i can see it makeing some aspects of ns game play rather confusing.

What happens when a comm drops and structure into a low g room. Does it just spawn as per usual ( id guess so)

what happens if an onos tries a charge attack in low g? (if it has one).

what happens to droped gear or corpses

are extra animations required for floating marines/ aliens ( rine running in mid air would look fairly dumb)

does blood splatter differently, does blood float around?

where do bullet casings go.

I think assuming it doesnt create uber bugs low grav would be awsome but i agree with the above mappers would have to use it with discresion. Badly placed low grav could easily ruin maps. If you had one or possibly two areas in a map of moderate tactical importance that could be triggered to low g that would be interesting.

one interesting map idea would be to have a no atmosphere gangway between two sections of a map. You have an airlock cycle at either end and then a steel meshwalled corridor which is outside in space between the two airlocks, this corridor could be alternative low or no grav route between two places on a map

darktimes · November 2008

i like this idea, but i think the way crysis handles it would be more fitting to NS2 as dead space.
in crysis, you dont have the 90degree limit to rotate your view up and down.

but we need to keep in mind how it would affect gameplay as marine and as alien.
im against the idea that normal marines get hightech equipment as gravity boots.
im a person who like to imagine how it will be handled ingame. and i share it.

the basics should be
W- move in the direction you face,
S- move backwards from the direction you face (slow you down)
A- you get the idea.
D- still havent got it?

<b><u>as marine in a zero gravity area.</u></b>
lets say the door opens, you enter the 0G area.
now, like in dystopia, there shouldnt be a 90Â° limit to the vertical achse.
jump could be changed so that it will push you in the direction you face, instead of just "up" (like a strong, fast W push.)
you can only jump when near a surface (any surface. )
and jump cant be stopped untill you collide whit debris or the floor/ceiling. but it can make some corrections whit AWSD.
if you press the movement keys, you "swim" (could use the swim animation..) through the air, slower, but you can controll where you go.
note to walls. in 0G areas everyone gets the skulk wall walking abilty.

jetpack marines:
just like normal marines, but they can change directions instantly, whit more speed and are disignt to be in zero G. due they can even fly on gravity, they need to be carefull when giving full boost.. or they will be a splatter blood on the wall. just slow down whit S
when he changes directions, he losses speed. the jetpack should be something like steering help, not a super rocket backpack.

HAs,
well, he cant be so bulky as the onos, but have the same problems. hes just a normal marine whit worser stats.

<b><u>aliens have more problems, their melee oriented. so they have handicaps.</u></b>
the basic is the same as marine movement, but +movement abilitys handle diffrently in zero G for each alien.

skulks leap is just a faster, stronger jump, but will knock back moving stuff.

gorges. well.. if they get webhook.. justs like normal.

fades. you teleport there, whit no acceleration or anything, you just teleport on the desired location. (if it <i>will</i> be tele. i dont want lerkfades anymore..) (this could make zero G rooms safe against fades, due they just can teleport on the walls or directly on the flouting marine. means that marines have higher chances against them when flouting in the middle.)

lerk. the lerk needs gravity to fly, so his ability is disabled, but he gets a new one. hes way faster and more agile as any other marine(eccept jetpackers)/alien, couse his wings act like fishfins, and in jump he can drasticaly change directions (others can just make minor adjustments )
giving him the best set for the aliens in zero G to fight marines. how will you fight something that can change in high speed, whitout losing acceleration, directions? the same rules as the jetpacker affects the lerk too. he needs to slow down to land on a surface.

onos. should make a way around these areas as if its filled whit radiation, toxic gas, and 90 jetpackers. he has worse stats on zero G. something like no real steering, he should only be in this room if its controlled by aliens. he can cross the room like any other alien too, but slow. very slow. rush dont function here, you just waste adrenalin.

<b>to viewrotation</b>
no, just no, zero G will be chaotic enough if there are 2 skulks, 1 gorge, 2 fades, and 2 jetpacker and 5 marines in the same room, it would make it unplayable.

to end this WOT.

<b>VOTE <span style="color:#00FF00">JES</span></b>

Recupel · November 2008

I guess it could be cool but for view rotation...
Withouth Zero G, when did it turn? A skulk jump on a wall, we can assume that he know that and he start rotate during the jump... But know the engine that? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
We can think about a manual rotate but skulk is usually the starter class.
Imagine Newbies testing the alien class, even withouth manual rotate , he can easily loss themself...
Alien will become a elite class and it will be a less of alien players...

Now think about the rotation view within Zero G...
Same question...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes)</div><div class='quotemain'>in 0G areas everyone gets the skulk wall walking abilty.</div>

Aren't you against Magnetics Boots?
Walking create a simple impulsion which can eject you from the wall...

darktimes · November 2008

sorry if it wasnt clear, i just tought that a alien/marine can hold on the wall if he wants, think of "climbing" on/next to the wall

ghost in the shell · November 2008

Mobius strip...

Recupel · November 2008

Considering each wall like a ladder? Interesting...
But will decrease the accuracy in fire... One hand fire? Only possible with small guns?
But the aliens will take a huge advantage of it...

darktimes · November 2008

jes, but when you float on empty space you can fire.. maybe no recoil in zeroG, but it knock you back a little, or you need to stop to fire, while jes, aliens could get adventages, so do marines, and there are also disadventages for both, so it shouldnt be too unbalanced.

culprit · November 2008

this immediately made me think of the Battle School in Ender's game. Zero G combat can be really interesting if there are more than just big empty spaces. Lots of 3D elements intersecting a empty space of unique shape could really lead to interesting zero G gameplay ideas. This would also require structure placement on almost any flat surface or limited structure placements in zero g areas.
There is lots of potential with this idea, as long as it is used optimally.

spellman23 · November 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Nov 9 2008, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>jes, but when you float on empty space you can fire.. maybe no recoil in zeroG, but it knock you back a little, or you need to stop to fire, while jes, aliens could get adventages, so do marines, and there are also disadventages for both, so it shouldnt be too unbalanced.</div>

As cool as recoil physics while floating in zeroG sounds, its really sucks if you stop moving from firing your gun and need to unload a clip to get back to a wall. I would recommend firing in zeroG to be allowed, just at a lower accuracy than when you're on the wall.

The major issue, as noted many times, is how do we orient ourselves? One of the best can be found <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103464&view=findpost&p=1664742" target="_blank">here</a>. Basically, the engine projects where you're going to end up, and rotates your view as you move towards the new surface. I would also recommend a way to walk along the walls, similar to a magnetic boots feature.

I can see Marine advantages due to firing while flying, but not many good Alien advantages except flying Oni. Fades and Lerks already get pretty good air control, Skulks have wall climbing (although they always fall one direction), and Gorges become squishy targets in zeroG. So, having Oni floating and devouring as they go is really the only thing good. And since they're all melee, you have to intercept the flying Marine, who can just spam bullets as your float through the air. Granted, Aliens can probably fly through the air faster, but still. Aliens being exposed usually ends up in Aliens dying.

But yes, just having zeroG simply so Marines and Gorge can walk on walls and ceilings = bad. We demand flying stuff in the air. Otherwise, it's just relative gravity. That's what Dystopia does in cyberspace and Prey uses a similar system, and they're pretty darn fun.

ryknow69 · November 2008

*Throws 2 Cents in*

Cent 1)Hm, I've had an idea on orientation when I read the 1st post, 1st thought, 2nd 'D-pad', but I got a better one, Lets say you're a marine, with an HMG, and you're floating in the middle of the Zero-G room. Below you is the left wall(If you enter the room normally) and a skulk pushes off that surface, how will you aim at him? You aim down, and when you hit your feet, you push your feet around....basicly, rotating.

-Aiming as far left as you can, and holding left, you rotate your body, as if on normal ground,
-Aiming as far up as you can, and holding up on the mouse, you do a back flip,

this could simplify how to rotate if floating.

Cent 2)
-Skulks should be able to act normally in these Zero-G rooms when on ground, and can use Darktimes 'jump' idea to do a short, adren free leap, or propel them off the wall into the middle of the room, at a medium speed. Leap(If they keep it in)would suit better if you are going for an attack, or evasion, but the 'jump' would give you more control.

-Lerks should be, as stated, prime alien for Zero-G rooms, even if they can't really fly, there's still air in that room, which is all they need to change direction mid-flight, something all the other aliens CAN'T do.

-Fades should have the teleport back, making them not enough have to worry when in Zero-G, he can teleport to a floating marine, kill him, then teleport back out. He can't walk on walls, and since teleporting leaves you going fast, if he teleports at a perpendicular angle to the wall, SPLAT, there goes 3/4th's his health, easy prey for an HMG marine

-Onos' should be horrid for Zero-G, as again been pre-stated, except his jump should be good at sending him forward, and not propelling. Meaning he jumps forward pretty damn good, but sucks jumping through air.

-Gorges should be given the webhook, or something along the lines that'd help him, since he's almost like the onos exactly, good forward jump, bad up jump. He should be diffrent to the onos by having, again, the webhook.

Big cent ain't it?

-Jetpack Marines should use the JP like our astronaugts use them now, as stabilizers, JP's should be the best suited person for Zero-G enviroments. Which ever way he looks is where he's propelled, unlike in Normal-G, where he just goes up and forward. When he fires his gun, he uses jet fuel(the litttle gauge in NS) as if flying, why? He's using the JP to stabilize him from being sent backwards as he shoots, when he runs out, he gets sent backwards like a normal marine. The bigger the gun, the more fuel it uses to stabilize, except GL, which uses at best as much as a LMG.

-Exo-Skeleton(HA) Marines should get some type of magnetic booting. The Exo-sk... lets call it our favored HA, never gets to fly through the Zero-G room, so he's kinda like a skulk in Normal-G, just slower. This gives the player orientation, and won't be tossed around when firing his gun. So basicly, Zero-G doesn't bother the HA much, infact, it kinda helps him.

-Normal Marines...well you guys hit that one good. When flying through the air, he can shoot normally, but gets sent backwards, so if you jump off a wall, and want to go faster, shoot behind you =). When touching a wall, you hold the gun with one hand, while the other is stickied to the wall. It's stickied cause marine gloves have a helping agent on them to prevent marines from losing grip on their guns. This gives the marine a bigger Cone of Fire, or less accuracy as said before.

-Grenades should fly through the air, not at any ark, till their timer goes off, expand on this idea

Oh, and landing with feet down helps you out ALOT, alien or marine.

Pennies sure have gotten big these days.....

Hawkeye · November 2008

I can think of a lot of potential problems with this system from a programmer's point of view. The biggest problem of all is that you'd have to think of every silly little case about position and what happens the second gravity kicks back in.

Then there's the feasibility of having an onos floating in midair and touching a wall (you expect me to believe he will turn himself around immediately and gain traction and be able to walk etc.?).

Maybe it could have been done if marines all had gravity boots (spawned with them) which wouldn't let them jump because skulks stick to walls. But there are all the other alien classes that don't stick to walls (at least the ones for ns1.. ).

Nice idea.. not very practical.

darktimes · November 2008

my cent to orientation.

its really a mapper thing. either there is absolutly no orientation in a "always zero G" room, becouse it doesnt matter much, think of round doors, and a circle room.

or

on a limited/triggered zeroG room there should be a hint where the floor is, like a distinct texture,"ah, green whit lights is ground"

EmpV · November 2008

I was kind of thinking that if a zero G room has <span style="color:#00BFFF">DI</span> in it, there could be some alien only gravity effect that would make it possible for any alien to walk on the walls where there is DI. The DI would pull them to the nearest surface. DI could also interfere with the marines grav boots.

This gives marines an advantage if they control the zero G area, and aliens an advantage if they infest it. Whoever contols it can walk on the walls. (except for skulks, lerks, jetpackers, etc)

As for <span style="color:#00BFFF">orientation</span>, I think it is all about the player model animations. Your model can maintain its position when floating around a room(with some kind of floating animation), but once you get to a surface, it has to have a "land and stand up" animation that makes the transitions look good. I also think there needs to be some kind of indicator to help identify which way is actually down.

Idealy, <span style="color:#00BFFF">mapping</span> would be easy if the game code handles it right. A mapper would just create a brush and within this brush the area is zero G. The Lua code would figure out where surfaces are and trigger player rotation and such. It would be VERY hard coding though.

Another big problem with zero G is <span style="color:#00BFFF">commander mode</span>. Since it is a Top-Down view, the commander might have a hard time seeing marines on ceilings. If there was a way to make the commander view adjustable somehow, you could create some wild maps with different gravity directions like in a space station. structure placement is also an issue.

Just throwing in more ideas... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

ryknow69 · November 2008

They are adding ajustable commander view, maybe they can throw in Z axis rotation.

Hawkeye · November 2008

Think it might be fun to be able to change the gravity direction. That's even doable to an extent. I imagine this new engine will be somewhat like half-life 2 in that it has a decent physics engine. So you could do things like have a switch which changes the direction of the gravity, and all marines/aliens would reorient themselves to the new 'down' direction. This could mean building maps which can be played from either gravity direction.

Could be tricky, but I think it could potentially add a whole new level of depth and playability. Perhaps from one gravity direction, aliens had easy access to the human base via vents, but once the direction changed, humans could get into the vents and camp it (and have easy access to alien base) for example.

The commander perspective would have to get rotated accordingly, and the trickiest aspect would have to be how the human structures are handled. They'd have to 'fall' but not in such a way that it would render useless the structures (an armory on its side should still grant ammo for example). The alien structures, I think they should stick to the walls.

Depends on the mapper like all things, but you could make it so that it grants and overall benefit to the alien team for their ability to adapt better. Could be a nice counter to the potential welders for the human team. Perhaps have some sort of ship's control panel (near human base) which if takes x damage (done by aliens of course), rotates gravity direction by 90 degrees and gives aliens quick access to human base. I like this idea the more I think about it. Rather than change the direction all at once, perhaps you could rotate it slowly.. like 1 degree every minute like the whole ship were taking a gravitational pull by a nearby sun or something.

ryknow69 · November 2008

Hmm, a map with a good gimmik.....ship flying through space, starts to decend into planet's gravity, new Down direction for certain rooms =P

I like that, but still the idea of the certain few zero-g rooms would be very good.

invader Zim · November 2008

did anyone on this forum ever complete AVP gold edition marine missions. IF you did you got access to some bonus missions. One of these missions was on the gateway map. But the gravity rotated for the entire map. So you would be walking up what was a wall then it would swing round and ud fall through a window to be greeted by an alien leaping at u. I never completed that bonus map and it were very confusing but its an interesting example of rotational gravity.

darktimes · November 2008

another example is prey, whit portals, teleportals and gravity changes.

ryknow69 · November 2008

Yea... So... how many people think gravity changes of any sort are a must for the NS2 Engine to handle and implement it into the game.

Nasdero · November 2008

well i dont need it its really needed just a gimmik and how should buildings in zero g area behave ??

M00_cow · November 2008

Err, look at next post.

M00_cow · November 2008

I forsee a type of gun like that in HL 2 where you can move anything around, only it involves a mean marine, and a floating alien. Just joking <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

I think this idea sounds fantastic, although, i think that it should be used as little as possible. Kind of like, a surprise. Like, when your trolling through a half destroyed spaceship inhabited by aliens, and you come across a room with no windows, but huge doors. You open the door, walk in. It's pitch black. You take a few steps and randomly fire off a few shots. An explosion. Boom, the side of the ship explodes open and you are sucked out into space, and its GG for you.

Now, that would float my boat. As long as i could somehow watch and not die.

glimmerman · November 2008

I think that if used sparingly, this could be a very neat feature of NS2. Perhaps, there is some kinda of advantage to the marines when the gravity is in "Zero G" mode (e.g magnetic boots) and the aliens have to cut off power to the room for it to go back to normal, then for some reason, the aliens now have the advantage.

Just a though...

My vote: <span style="color:#00FF00"> Yes</span>

I don't think however, that the rotating view should be implemented. It would be way too confusing. The current NS system is fine.

Zero Gravity And View Rotation in NS2

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