Encouraging Cooperative Play
Sirot
Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And Faction Diversity</div>Natural Selection represents two different playing styles. At the same time, it is a very competitive and cooperative game. You need a successful team to win and there is no way around that. This makes making the two factions distinctly different in their mentalities difficult, especially since aliens are supposed to be individualistic. With the aliens getting their own commander in NS2, the sequel should push the two sides even more distinct in more fundamental ways.
I suggest that the Marines should be squad based. I have thought a lot about how this should be implemented. As the Anti-Rambo System thread taught me, you can’t go into a discussion heralding change without actually specifying what those changes are.
I had a few things in mind when I designed these. I wanted the marine to be more effective in a group. I want it to make sense to travel in a group. I don’t want the individual marine to be crippled though. The way the individual marine acts should be different from the way an individual alien does. Some of these ideas are based off mechanics we were told that are going to be in NS2. Each idea can be implemented as stand-alone or together, depending on how strong you want the cooperative element to be.
<b>Squad-Wide Effects</b>
In NS2, both the marine and aliens will have commanders. They are going to have their own abilities as well. What I believe is going to be a unique feature for the marine commander (or it could not, either way) is that squads are going to be dynamically created as marines move in close distance of each other.
To diversify the two commanders, the marine’s commander should have most of his abilities affect an entire squad at once at a fixed cost. It does not matter if there is one, two or ten people in the squad, the cost will be the same (or scale by a small amount for balance reasons). The effect of the ability is not restricted to the squad; the effect will persist if a marine leaves the squad. This mechanic only affects squads dynamically generated from marines being in close of range each other and does not affect assigned groups.
This mechanic does a few things. It encourages marines being a group from an economical perspective, where it’s cheaper to bulk than individually. It does not restrict marines to be in a group, you meet up with marines to gain a buff than go on your separate ways right after and coordinate regroups to sustain the buffs, which is also immersive. It gives additional depth to the commander and has does not directly impact the way the marines play.
<b>Holstering Weapons</b>
In NS2, the marines gain the ability to sprint. This gives the marine more mobility and is a common mechanic in shooters. However, mobility is the advantage of the aliens and I suggest that that advantage should be more pronounced.
When sprinting, climbing a ladder or using a computer interface, the marine should holster his weapon. When the action is complete or interrupted, there should be a slight delay when the marine readies his weapon. The marine does not holster his weapon when using simple switches (e.g. opening doors).
Not only does this adds additional immersion, but encourages working together in a obvious way. Sprint is probably going to be an ideal way to cross distances, but it should have a risk. If you are caught alone when sprinting, you are going to have an extremely difficult time defending yourself. If you are sprinting to a location with a group, your allies can stop and fire their weapons while you can dodge the attacker, increasing your chance of survival drastically. Same thing applies to climbing a ladder. Another large advantage this change gives is that it makes setting up ambushes as an alien easier. Playing once as a marine notifies of places (e.g. ladders) where you can take advantage as a skulk for example
<b>Skulk of Fear</b>
In NS1, the skulk serves as the scout and ambusher for the aliens. The scout role is accomplished by using the parasite ability and generally encourages the skulks to spread apart to cover the most area. This is good, it encourages individuality.
To make skulks more effective as scouts and even useful as support for advanced life forms is to give them the Scent of Fear ability for free and have it to be exclusive for skulks. Skulks become immediately aware of any marines near them, allowing them to set up ambushes easier and single out marines who could be traveling alone.
This affects the early game mostly and makes working individually as aliens more favorable and cooperatively as marines. The larger area the skulks cover, the more information the skulks can get from scent of fear and relay it to allies using parasite. This also makes the skulks more effective against lone marines by being able to track them without making themselves more vulnerable. Skulks get another huge benefit from this by making the class easier to play, helping new players set up ambushes.
<b>Hampered Jumping</b>
The most direct of my ideas and this is not as horrible as it sounds. If you get hit as a marine, your jump distance is halved for a second. If the alien can’t get close enough to land the first hit, you are going to be completely intact without penalty. If he does, the marine is in trouble.
Like Skulk of Fear, this idea affects early game and benefits skulks the most by amplifying their situational advantage. If they get close enough to land the first bite, as a marine you are in a tough situation unless it can be killed fast because you can’t immediately hop away out of range to nullify that advantage. Best way of killing a skulk fast that is on your heels is to have other marines help you kill it.
I am a believer that the marines should have stronger cooperative themes to better distinguish them from the aliens. Specifically, I wanted to encourage squad based activity that is commonly represented in the media such as film. Marines are often expected to work together, capitalizing on that assumption will help new players play the game and give them more opportunities to learn from experienced players. There is some reduction of the effectiveness of the individual marine, but there is new depth added that makes up for the reduction of skill gap (e.g. communication for squad-wide abilities). Even then, the reduction of the skill gap helps newer players to be competitive against veterans.
None of these changes are necessary; the marines in Natural Selection 1 play alright. Natural Selection 2, however, is going to be a different game and learning new skills is going to be a part of it. It’s a new game after all.
I suggest that the Marines should be squad based. I have thought a lot about how this should be implemented. As the Anti-Rambo System thread taught me, you can’t go into a discussion heralding change without actually specifying what those changes are.
I had a few things in mind when I designed these. I wanted the marine to be more effective in a group. I want it to make sense to travel in a group. I don’t want the individual marine to be crippled though. The way the individual marine acts should be different from the way an individual alien does. Some of these ideas are based off mechanics we were told that are going to be in NS2. Each idea can be implemented as stand-alone or together, depending on how strong you want the cooperative element to be.
<b>Squad-Wide Effects</b>
In NS2, both the marine and aliens will have commanders. They are going to have their own abilities as well. What I believe is going to be a unique feature for the marine commander (or it could not, either way) is that squads are going to be dynamically created as marines move in close distance of each other.
To diversify the two commanders, the marine’s commander should have most of his abilities affect an entire squad at once at a fixed cost. It does not matter if there is one, two or ten people in the squad, the cost will be the same (or scale by a small amount for balance reasons). The effect of the ability is not restricted to the squad; the effect will persist if a marine leaves the squad. This mechanic only affects squads dynamically generated from marines being in close of range each other and does not affect assigned groups.
This mechanic does a few things. It encourages marines being a group from an economical perspective, where it’s cheaper to bulk than individually. It does not restrict marines to be in a group, you meet up with marines to gain a buff than go on your separate ways right after and coordinate regroups to sustain the buffs, which is also immersive. It gives additional depth to the commander and has does not directly impact the way the marines play.
<b>Holstering Weapons</b>
In NS2, the marines gain the ability to sprint. This gives the marine more mobility and is a common mechanic in shooters. However, mobility is the advantage of the aliens and I suggest that that advantage should be more pronounced.
When sprinting, climbing a ladder or using a computer interface, the marine should holster his weapon. When the action is complete or interrupted, there should be a slight delay when the marine readies his weapon. The marine does not holster his weapon when using simple switches (e.g. opening doors).
Not only does this adds additional immersion, but encourages working together in a obvious way. Sprint is probably going to be an ideal way to cross distances, but it should have a risk. If you are caught alone when sprinting, you are going to have an extremely difficult time defending yourself. If you are sprinting to a location with a group, your allies can stop and fire their weapons while you can dodge the attacker, increasing your chance of survival drastically. Same thing applies to climbing a ladder. Another large advantage this change gives is that it makes setting up ambushes as an alien easier. Playing once as a marine notifies of places (e.g. ladders) where you can take advantage as a skulk for example
<b>Skulk of Fear</b>
In NS1, the skulk serves as the scout and ambusher for the aliens. The scout role is accomplished by using the parasite ability and generally encourages the skulks to spread apart to cover the most area. This is good, it encourages individuality.
To make skulks more effective as scouts and even useful as support for advanced life forms is to give them the Scent of Fear ability for free and have it to be exclusive for skulks. Skulks become immediately aware of any marines near them, allowing them to set up ambushes easier and single out marines who could be traveling alone.
This affects the early game mostly and makes working individually as aliens more favorable and cooperatively as marines. The larger area the skulks cover, the more information the skulks can get from scent of fear and relay it to allies using parasite. This also makes the skulks more effective against lone marines by being able to track them without making themselves more vulnerable. Skulks get another huge benefit from this by making the class easier to play, helping new players set up ambushes.
<b>Hampered Jumping</b>
The most direct of my ideas and this is not as horrible as it sounds. If you get hit as a marine, your jump distance is halved for a second. If the alien can’t get close enough to land the first hit, you are going to be completely intact without penalty. If he does, the marine is in trouble.
Like Skulk of Fear, this idea affects early game and benefits skulks the most by amplifying their situational advantage. If they get close enough to land the first bite, as a marine you are in a tough situation unless it can be killed fast because you can’t immediately hop away out of range to nullify that advantage. Best way of killing a skulk fast that is on your heels is to have other marines help you kill it.
I am a believer that the marines should have stronger cooperative themes to better distinguish them from the aliens. Specifically, I wanted to encourage squad based activity that is commonly represented in the media such as film. Marines are often expected to work together, capitalizing on that assumption will help new players play the game and give them more opportunities to learn from experienced players. There is some reduction of the effectiveness of the individual marine, but there is new depth added that makes up for the reduction of skill gap (e.g. communication for squad-wide abilities). Even then, the reduction of the skill gap helps newer players to be competitive against veterans.
None of these changes are necessary; the marines in Natural Selection 1 play alright. Natural Selection 2, however, is going to be a different game and learning new skills is going to be a part of it. It’s a new game after all.
Comments
- I like this idea. Besides encouraging team play, it would reduce commander's micromanagement as well. Squad-wide med packs may be going too far, depending on your point of view... Still, squad-wide effects would certainly be useful.
Holstering Weapons
- I like this idea as well, for the reasons you outlined: encourages team play and is realistic. However, being helpless, even for half a second after sprinting, might be considered not FUN and cut. I think that the advantage that sprinting offers should come with a disadvantage: weapon use delay would be appropriate. In NS1, weapon was holstered when building, so i'm sure the developers will consider that idea and choose the best solution based on balance. With ladders, holstering the weapon would probably be too much of a disadvantage.
Skulk of Fear
- I don't think this is necessary. Parasite already works like scent of fear giving aliens an advantage. In theory, the more skulks are out, the more marines should be parasited - the problem in NS1 is that many players choose not to parasite...
Hampered Jumping
- I can't comment much on this, because player movement is such a contentious issue... For one, i don't think that marines should be able to do acrobatics that they can in NS1. Generally though, any hampering of movement is not fun in Charlie/Max's view so this is unlikely to happen. This is getting off topic but... A better way to balance marine mobility would be with weapon weights so a marine with light weapons would be much better at dodging than marine with heavy ones.
A somewhat related issue to cooperative play from marine's perspective:
Should Friendly Fire be on or off by default? It seems like your ideas assume FF to be off, since in a group marines are very likely to hit each other.
- I can't comment much on this, because player movement is such a contentious issue... For one, i don't think that marines should be able to do acrobatics that they can in NS1. Generally though, any hampering of movement is not fun in Charlie/Max's view so this is unlikely to happen. This is getting off topic but... A better way to balance marine mobility would be with weapon weights so a marine with light weapons would be much better at dodging than marine with heavy ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already there. The problem is that with heavy firepower you don't need the mobility, especially if your opponents haven't mastered the alien mobility. You could limit the gun movement further, but at some point it becomes quite dull to play a human turret with very little mobility.
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I wonder if the squads could be automatically divided into subsquads by the equipment. For example a squad of SG, HMG and 2 LMGs could be divided into 'firepower' and 'support' sections. At that point a simple 'supports build the tf' informs the LMGs their task. At least quite a few people seem to have trouble adapting to the variation of situations in NS, stuff like that could help them understand the situational importance and role.
- I don't think this is necessary. Parasite already works like scent of fear giving aliens an advantage. In theory, the more skulks are out, the more marines should be parasited - the problem in NS1 is that many players choose not to parasite...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be more afraid of skulks completely loosing interest in parasiting if they would have scent of fear from the beginning.
In response:
1. We already have this I think in the form of a marine crouching and another one jumping on top of him.
2. Not sure how much this will overlap with the commander, but it would be pretty rad.
3. Aside from guns, what else can they swap? We can drop guns already...
4. I was thinking of something like this when I was writing up my thread. A lot of games with strong cooperative elements have the "downed players" that can be revived by a teammate. Issue is that giving such a feature to the Marines and not the Aliens could create large balance issues. I do think it can be done tastefully...maybe a commander can forward spawn a dead marine if his dog tag is picked soon after he is killed?
5. How would that work?
I really like Skulk of Fear because it makes ambushing with a skulk worlds easier, which could help out new players a lot. That parasite issue is not fun though. Best way I'd wager is to have the radius of the ability to be large enough to be aware of a hallway and maybe encourage parasiting with achievement ingame?
1. We already have this I think in the form of a marine crouching and another one jumping on top of him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say animations work wonders on encouraging things like that. A little more boosting options by mappers and maybe even by some buildings that can be climbed by boosting could help. The bad thing is that the squad might get separated unless the boosted marine can pull the rest up to the ledge he was boosted.
If there was more stuff similar to stomp going on, it might be a good idea to have one guy boosted to an upper ledge. Maybe make DI spread on the floor 1st so that you can have one marine escaping the effects and covering the others from a better position. Making weldables a little more rewarding, but also a little more difficult to reach might help too.
I don't know if sharing the hits could be encouraged. If I see a marine taking a hit, I'll charge forward and save him from the next alien. With a little smoother collisions or something similar we could be seeing more of that. An achievement for that maybe?
Every marine having a laser sight only visible to other marines might be nice too. Especially with the minimap gone, it may be difficult to know whether the other guy is guarding other entrances or not. If there are squad leaders, make his laser distinquishable for some easy laser point commanding and focus fire.
There are probably far more effecitve ways if you're willing to reduce the marine game flexibilty and force squad oriented gameplay, but I wouldn't go there unless it's clearly necessary.
I'll try to add some more later.
Hmm, now to think of it, slightly encourage skulks to work in pairs or small packs and you'll also force the marines to step up their squadwork. This way the lone marines are still viable, but better alien teamwork forces them to adapt a bit.
The lower their hitpoints are, the stronger the reinforcement towards ambushing. If straightlining gets a kill 50% of the time a newbie skulk may never change his ways, but if it fails 90% of the time they'll figure it out real quick, especially with the help of better in-game learning tools.
Ramboing successfully is a form of cooperative play. What you're referring to in this thread is cluster######ing. The thread title should be changed to reflect this.
Penalizing marines who don't cluster###### linearalizes gameplay which reduces the dynamism of the game, resulting in a net loss of fun.
I don't understand why you think not being able to shoot while climbing a ladder is in any way a good thing, for fun, atmosphere, etc.
Giving all skulks a wallhack is an interesting idea, and it might get them playing more strategically. At the same time, I think it would reduce a lot of the atmosphere of the game - are you willing to take that risk?
You seem to not understand that there is a bounce (though not as significant as it used to be) when a marine is hit. Simply removing that would accomplish your goal of removing all close-combat skill in the game.
You are not a believer in these ephemeral "themes" you are asserting. You are a frustrated player looking for a way to make skulking less complex. This is an understandable goal because if you (a newbie) are having trouble learning the game, chances are other newbies will also have trouble with similar issues, which is why I think that your wallhack idea isn't completely terrible. Also there is no reason to turn a video game into a film - if I wanted a film, I would watch Alien.
NS is not Guild Wars. GW is a totally team-oriented, great game on its own merits, but NS has an arcady flash that is integral to its appeal. Removing that would make it worse than WoW in terms of both marketing and appeal because WoW, while totally skilless, has great breadth of gameplay. I don't want the developers to have to compete with every mindless massive game with nothing more than a low budget and small (above averagely intelligent) team, do you?
Ramboing successfully is a form of cooperative play. What you're referring to in this thread is cluster######ing. The thread title should be changed to reflect this.
Penalizing marines who don't cluster###### linearalizes gameplay which reduces the dynamism of the game, resulting in a net loss of fun.
I don't understand why you think not being able to shoot while climbing a ladder is in any way a good thing, for fun, atmosphere, etc.
Giving all skulks a wallhack is an interesting idea, and it might get them playing more strategically. At the same time, I think it would reduce a lot of the atmosphere of the game - are you willing to take that risk?
You seem to not understand that there is a bounce (though not as significant as it used to be) when a marine is hit. Simply removing that would accomplish your goal of removing all close-combat skill in the game.
You are not a believer in these ephemeral "themes" you are asserting. You are a frustrated player looking for a way to make skulking less complex. This is an understandable goal because if you (a newbie) are having trouble learning the game, chances are other newbies will also have trouble with similar issues, which is why I think that your wallhack idea isn't completely terrible. Also there is no reason to turn a video game into a film - if I wanted a film, I would watch Alien.
NS is not Guild Wars. GW is a totally team-oriented, great game on its own merits, but NS has an arcady flash that is integral to its appeal. Removing that would make it worse than WoW in terms of both marketing and appeal because WoW, while totally skilless, has great breadth of gameplay. I don't want the developers to have to compete with every mindless massive game with nothing more than a low budget and small (above averagely intelligent) team, do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing I suggested nullifies Rambo players. Does squad-wide effects demand moving in a ball? No. Does adding elements of risk to do actions force people to move in a ball? No. Does making it easier for skulks to set up ambushes (which could be balanced by lower health, as suggested by Anytime) force people to move in a ball? No. Does not being able to jump into safety immediately after hit in melee force marines to stay in a ball? Finally and again, the answer is, no. You aren’t being constructive by being vague and exaggerative, you probably already knew what you were going to say going into this thread. We go into games expecting different things and if you want a different experience from me, that’s fine. If you call heresy anytime whenever someone likes something you don’t, tough luck because we are in this together. This is called compromise. I would have gone for more aggressive suggestions, but I haven’t. I played Natural Selection for a long time but I never went competitive with it. I did not marry myself to the game makes you think I am newbie, I don’t really care.
Squad-wide abilities do not force people to bunch up and it does not penalize them, but that honestly depends on the effectiveness of the abilities. So I wouldn’t delve too much on that. The abilities would not have “group size†requirements and a good commander will have to make a call when it is more worth while to buff four people or two or one, depending on the situation. More unorganized teams will be given a helping hand using these buffs, while more experienced, more competitive teams will use this more strategically. There are options gained and lost.
Go find a gun and a ladder. Now, try to shoot at a target while climbing that ladder in a brisk pace. You can’t do it because recoil will probably dislocate the shoulder if it’s an automatic weapon. That is atmospheric and why do you say it’s not fun? I’d like that tension and I would find it fun. I can throw the f word around too : P
We have different ideas of atmosphere. I don’t find it weird that an advanced, space faring life form will have sensory perceptions other than just sight and sound. Hell, our animals on earth have a sense of smell.
I never said that removing close-combat in my goal. I would like to think your goals are to be a pest, but that would be rude and inaccurate to say (I hope). If skulks are supposed to ambush marines to “win†against a marine and lose if the skulk just runs at him, why should the marine get the benefit of the doubt and not the skulk? If the marine made an error of judgment and got himself into a bad situation, he should pay for it unless he is lucky to have an advantage (low health skulk, comm support or a nearby teammate). The skulk already does if he is walking straight at a marine if the marine is any form competent.
We have different ideas of what we want NS2 to be. I can’t say that I am right because this is subjective. We take different themes from games. We have find different things fun. We can sling insults at each other as much as we want. Every point you made displayed a logical fallacy (I am also attacking the man here), but try to be more constructive. Give actual input instead of just saying “I don’t like itâ€.
I like the idea of holstering the weapons it creates a nice atmosphere of fear for the marine, because he feels very vulnerable without his gun (but who doesnt <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) It shouldn't be like you mentioned, I think it is enough that the player feels vulnerable.
The idea for Scent of Skulk shouldn'b be like this probably there can be an upgrade (upgraded by alien Comm or the skulk itself) so you can "track" marines in form of smelling (seeing) the footprints on the ground in colours from red (for long ago) lightening up to yellow or white (for very close) so the skulk can track the marines down, but for doing this he has to leave his cover and becomes more vulnerable, this also creates a nice atmosphere for the alien player imho.
If you ever played the marine missions of Aliens vs Preadator I or II you know what kind of feeling I want the players to have, I liked this game very much and most of the marine missions literally scared the ammunition out of my guns <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Probably you could change the Radar of the Marines to the Motion Tracking as we know it in the AvP games, it gives you some information but you still feel unsecure because you just know that there is something out there, but you don't know what it is.
Ofcourse you shouldn't focus too much on those small things, because it is still an shooter and action based game and it shouldn't scare the marines so much that they run around as a whole squad all the time <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving all skulks a wallhack is an interesting idea, and it might get them playing more strategically. At the same time, I think it would reduce a lot of the atmosphere of the game - are you willing to take that risk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see Radix tries to be constructive ... sometimes, by the way that's also what I'm talking about, most of the things you want to achieve can be done by changing the atmosphere or how the players feel about certain situations or improvements of the interface, you don't need to add extras like Left for Crap pinning down (some ppl mentioned this in other Threads, hell they never thought about that if 3 skulks encounter 3 marines the skulks auto win by pinning them down :O )
Greetings 1mannARMEE
As a group, you can far more safely: build, reload and walk through ambush locations.
As a group, it is far easier to take down fades and lerks. It is almost necessary to team together to take down an onos.
If a marine is alone, he's just easy bait for lerks and fades. If hive two is up, skulks will be able to mop up rambos with leap.
A group of HA (that have welders) are extremely powerful. Several scattered HA are easily picked off.
A single JPer is easily taken down, but a group of coordinated players can rapidly take down a hive.
There is no reason to introduce such excessive squad effects for marines.
When I play ns, I like being able to make my own choices of how to play, rather than being forced to play the same way every round. Sometimes I squad together (esp. mid-late game). Sometimes I solo and harass outside the hive (early game). Both strategies work in their own place - but it's my choice of when I do each. If I wanted perfectly predictable, linear gameplay, I'd get out a movie.