Improving Skulk Gameplay
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">While maintaining balance</div>Skulks are an interesting assassin lifeform that comprises perhaps the backbone of all of Natural-Selection, but I have several issues with skulk gameplay:
1: Skulks intuitively cause new players to want to straightline at marines, which creates an excessively steep learning curve while they simultaneously learn to ambush and unlearn the straightlining habits that have been re-enforced countless times by terrible marines who can't aim.
2: Skulks may fail at a solo ambush even if they track well and land their bites consistently. Moreover skulks are unable to defend against marines except by hiding. Perhaps this is by design but it seems like more fun if the skulk and marine had a better style of "minigame" in combat besides circlestrafing.
3: Bad skulks are not incentivized to parasite, leading to eccentric pub games, and even sometimes failure to do so in pickups.
4: I'm not considering this a problem but it is worth putting down. Skulks and marines are not capable of the same things - they are asymmetrical by design - therefore I'm assuming that skulks do not need the same abilities as marines even at close range - this means that it's OK that they might die even in an ambush, but that doesn't necessitate that they would not benefit from micro gameplay enhancements.
I think those cover most of the issues - the first item is partially in reference to failure to ambush on pubs. Open flaming is encouraged.
1: Skulks intuitively cause new players to want to straightline at marines, which creates an excessively steep learning curve while they simultaneously learn to ambush and unlearn the straightlining habits that have been re-enforced countless times by terrible marines who can't aim.
2: Skulks may fail at a solo ambush even if they track well and land their bites consistently. Moreover skulks are unable to defend against marines except by hiding. Perhaps this is by design but it seems like more fun if the skulk and marine had a better style of "minigame" in combat besides circlestrafing.
3: Bad skulks are not incentivized to parasite, leading to eccentric pub games, and even sometimes failure to do so in pickups.
4: I'm not considering this a problem but it is worth putting down. Skulks and marines are not capable of the same things - they are asymmetrical by design - therefore I'm assuming that skulks do not need the same abilities as marines even at close range - this means that it's OK that they might die even in an ambush, but that doesn't necessitate that they would not benefit from micro gameplay enhancements.
I think those cover most of the issues - the first item is partially in reference to failure to ambush on pubs. Open flaming is encouraged.
Comments
2.the second one however, i strongly agree is an issue. when you jump down on the head of some stupid shogun marine crouching in the corner feeling all SWAT covering his team, land a solid bite, then get instagibbed as he whirls up and blows his load all over you...its just dissappointing. you set up the ambush, you landed on his head, bit once, then have to wait to bite again. so he shoots you. (yah, i know, move out of the way...whatever. the point is, you shoudnt have to. youve successfully ambushed him, and landed an attack, im not saying i want him to have no chance, (which would be impossible because he already had his chance the whole time you were sneaking up on him...thats the nature of the two classes.))
(point of post)
<b>im just saying that marines should win at a distance becuase they have GUNS, duh, but aliens should win at close combat, becuase, well, frankly, we dont have guns.</b>
so to make it fun, we should be able to win at some point! obvoiusly it wont work this way every time, but thats how it should be conceptualized for balance purposes. unless its not balanced around being skulk for any longer than the very fist wave. which would suck. balls. skulks are the heart of the game for me, its the closest "Aliens" recreation ive been able to have. and lets face it, those machine guns the marines have are straight up from Aliens, so dont say its not at least paying homage.
3. again, not an issue. just saying that people dont use all their abilities...
4. not really an issue in the sense that its a statement about the nature of the two classes, and not a complaint that could be remedied.
It is assumed that skulks should have the advantage in close range combat, it is not assumed that they should automatically win ever, because that would create determinism, which is bad for gameplay.
i was maybe hinting at some alternate attack which would let you bite once but have a longer cooldown between other attacks. kinda like focus bite, but not passive. more powerful longer cooldown, who knows. some sort of attack to be used out of an ambush, or bonus damage if bit from behind, who knows!
and note i said marines "should" win in long range, being used in an "auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected", same for skulks. just covering my bases <_<....>_>
<!--quoteo(post=1694429:date=Nov 26 2008, 12:02 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 26 2008, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... It would be another weapon in the skulk's arsenal, not replacing the leap/bite mechanics.<ul><li> Secondary fire of bite and/or leap is a latch on attack.</li><li> Initial bite may or may not do reduced damage.</li><li> <b>No</b> knockdown/disable/slow/visual imparement.</li><li> Damage dealt around 15 per second. Enough to make it faster to bite opponent normally.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*] Possible balancing features:<ul><li> Secondary knife fire insta-hits.</li><li> Welder knockback.</li><li> Allow skulks on side/front to be knocked off with quickstrike(weapon switch not needed)</li></ul>In order to prevent marine movement from being nerfed too much I have a couple of further[possible] limitations:<ul><li> Bite cooldown empties and freezes while in use(so must wait entire bite cooldown <b>after release</b> before biting)</li><li> Uses adren(like charge/blink)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Benefits:
<!--quoteo(post=1694437:date=Nov 26 2008, 02:42 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 26 2008, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> Encourages marines to cover each other</li><li> New form of "baiting"(one hops on back to force knife, next skulk takes advantage)</li><li> Newbies can now "follow" a jumping marine(only in an ambush situation, and at the cost of being vulnerable and doing much less damage)</li><li> Biting and moving is still quicker so it doesn't remove the upper caps on skulk skill</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WRT the OP:
It affects 1 and 2 by strengthening ambushing without making straight-lining easier. It also makes it easier for a new skulk to "follow" a jumping marine, but because of the reduced damage, actual biting is still better.
3 is unrelated and 4(micro "minigame" for skulk) is a divergent approach that could work. However, creating a realtime minigame that can be used in the heat of combat and cannot be scripted away while maintaining immersion is a tall order.
The skulk might get an special ability to "smell" his enemies and doing so he sees footprints of the marines on the ground coloured red for long time ago and brightening up, so the marines can be tracked down easily and he can parasite them.
The Alien Commander should be able to organize an ambush but also to use probably sound distractions or even visual distractions so that this shotgunner aims at the wrong direction, when the aliens attack <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
most of the above ideas are also quite nice, but it all must be easy to learn and being easy to execute also ... somehow <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Im going to make a thread out of this. Kudos to you.
By the way, marines have 5 ways to play a "battle minigame" with skulks:
1. Circle Strafe
2. Launch off of the bite
3. Double jump backwards
4. Run forward and jump to stop the skulk's momemtum causing the second bite to miss(or to jump over the skulk)
*5. Bunnyhop off of nearby railings or other objects(only in rooms with objects to jump off of)
*6. throw a hand grenade at the skulk or straight down
Aliens on the other hand can:
1. Bunnyhop at the marine
2. adadadadadad(dodge left and right)
3. Wallhop
*4. Hide inside rt models
*5. Take bullets near a hive to bait or make a marine reload
*6. Leap
*7. Xenocide(ok the game doesn't usually matter at this point but it deserves its own option)
*Only in specific circumstaces
I know some players don't like games with <i>skill</i> and would like a +skill button for skulks but why change something that isn't broken and has so many different ways to win a battle other than HOLD +FORWARD. If anyone wants a game where marines are rendered completely helpless by aliens, just play Left4Dead. A game without a steep learning curve wouldn't be worth playing for more than a few weeks(IMO).
I like the circlestrafing and bhopping but there's nothing saying it can't be improved with more interactual combat.
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
<!--quoteo(post=1698101:date=Jan 21 2009, 01:12 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 21 2009, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->interactual<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe the word you're looking for is "<a href="http://www.wordreference.com/definition/interactional" target="_blank">interactional</a>"(I agree that is the perfect word to describe it though).
thanks. ::thumbs up::
<b>for a short while there i thought radix was a sense maker.</b> i was foolish to make such ridiculous assumptions! thank you for making me see the light with the L4D example.
and on that note, i really like regular NS mode, its more hunter/prey.
to counter my own skulk ambush complaints, i guess ill just have to learn what oportunities to take advantage of untill i get better. T_T
When I play, skulks do tend to ambush, bait and work together quite well.
There's no need to add more features into skulk/marine combat, as this would seriously damage gameplay by diminishing the need for bhop, dodging, using map features (walls, railings, crates). Facesucking aliens would be just "oh, crap.. I died again because an enemy pressed the *win* button - and his teammate finished me off...".
Instead, at the moment, it's "oh crap, two skulks ganged up on me and won because I didn't shoot/dodge well enough and they did bite/dodge well enough".
These three concepts I think are vital to the skulk/marine interaction:
Simplicity in features (it's bite/para vs guns) - there isn't much to it really, it doesn't need to be complex
Depth in implementation (dodging, anticipation, hiding, using the map features) - but there's a lot you can do with what's there
and skill in gameplay - the better you are, the better you can kill the opposing player (rather than, LOL I disabled you with the starting alien type?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!111eleventy)
Ah, I see you are using it to describe the current system of skulk combat. I was under the impression that you were using it to describe the goal of skulk combat. My bad.
Something like a minigame, right?
Plus, more importantly than cool effects or neat weapons would be balance. The fine tuning can be done in playtesting, but fine tuning can do only so much. It has to be at least in the ballpark of a 1 to 1 kill ratio. Similarly, higher lifeforms fighting upgraded marines should generally follow a 1 to 1 kill ratio, though understandably if there are some exceptions to that, I'd have no problems so long as the exceptions were applied in both directions. However, if we're talking about a vanilla skulk and a vanilla marine, you can't make the starting classes have anything other than a 1 to 1 ratio.
It'd be hard to test that, as there are a thousand other variables involved, but the point is the same. If we're improving skulks here, than we're basically saying the amount of marines a single skulk can kill on average is less than 1. Am I correct in saying so?
Here's that[<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105200&st=0" target="_blank">Left For Dead</a>] thread that <b>anytime</b> is referring to.
Plus, more importantly than cool effects or neat weapons would be balance. The fine tuning can be done in playtesting, but fine tuning can do only so much. It has to be at least in the ballpark of a 1 to 1 kill ratio. Similarly, higher lifeforms fighting upgraded marines should generally follow a 1 to 1 kill ratio, though understandably if there are some exceptions to that, I'd have no problems so long as the exceptions were applied in both directions. However, if we're talking about a vanilla skulk and a vanilla marine, you can't make the starting classes have anything other than a 1 to 1 ratio.
It'd be hard to test that, as there are a thousand other variables involved, but the point is the same. If we're improving skulks here, than we're basically saying the amount of marines a single skulk can kill on average is less than 1. Am I correct in saying so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could just make upgrades useless, but then it would be hard to classify it as an rts.
You could just make skill more important than upgrades, but then it would be hard to classify it as an rts.
Almost like NS is part rts or something.
Plus, more importantly than cool effects or neat weapons would be balance. The fine tuning can be done in playtesting, but fine tuning can do only so much. It has to be at least in the ballpark of a 1 to 1 kill ratio. Similarly, higher lifeforms fighting upgraded marines should generally follow a 1 to 1 kill ratio, though understandably if there are some exceptions to that, I'd have no problems so long as the exceptions were applied in both directions. However, if we're talking about a vanilla skulk and a vanilla marine, you can't make the starting classes have anything other than a 1 to 1 ratio.
It'd be hard to test that, as there are a thousand other variables involved, but the point is the same. If we're improving skulks here, than we're basically saying the amount of marines a single skulk can kill on average is less than 1. Am I correct in saying so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Hawkeye,
Have you played Natural Selection before? How is a fade supposed to get a 1-to-1 ratio in classic? You do realise that fades cost 50 res to evolve to?
Also, the strength of fades makes up for the weakness of skulks. Also, the support of lerks strengthens the whole team (incl. skulks). This means that trying to say "make skulks = marines" is nonsense.
Furthermore, a good skulk team can shut down a marine team a lot of the time (ie, maybe stop the initial marines leaving base from capping the two closest res nodes). So it's not like skulks automatically die against marines...
He's saying a marine should have an equal chance to kill or be killed by a lifeform given comparable upgrade levels(particularly at the vanilla level), teamwork, and skill. He is not that a 50 res fade should be 1:1 against a marine with a shotgun.
To answer your question:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we're improving skulks here, than we're basically saying the amount of marines a single skulk can kill on average is less than 1. Am I correct in saying so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The goal for this thread is not to make skulks overall better, but improve the gameplay.
That aside, I'd like to see this train of thought expanded upon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If skulks were to be improved, it would be a close-ranged improvement, much like I'd expect a vanilla marine to be improved in long distance, but I think that's a given right? You're not going to make parasite a viable weapon for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1:1 doesn't mean straight line 1:1, it means appropriate play styles 1:1.
what do you mean whit that? NS1 is perfecty balanced through many betas and tests, how can we improve the game, and how it plays by altering good, testet mechanics? whats the Problem whit the GAMEPLAY?
a skulk and a marine have exactly the same chance to kill. but the factor that dues matter is the surrounging area. you shouldnt attack a marine in the open, you shouldnt attack the skulk in labyrintic mapparts.
but im drifting from the important question:
what is wrong? what is unbalanced and unfair? what breaks the flow and make the game studder?
i dont have any idea.
Congratulations, you make a very compelling point on how NS1 dynamics work with respect to early and later stages in the game.
Now, let's talk about NS2. Oh wait, that's the game we're making.
The Devs can make the gameplay balance system any way they want with respect to who defends, who's on aggression, or is it more balanced until someone tips it one way or the other. Please leave NS1 dynamics out of it. NS2 has the potential to break all NS1 'standards'.
And I truly hope it does. However, UWE's "<b>1/3 the same, 1/3 improved</b>, 1/3 new" ethos seems to indicate that the majority of the gameplay mechanics are gonna be very similar. If you want to post something constructive in future, keep the sarcasm out of it, it makes you look like a moron. Especially when you're wrong.
Gameplay mechanics and style, such as the FPS/RTS blend and res generation and buildings, maybe, but the flow of the game is very much up to their own design. While we can compare how this would work in NS1, implying that since it breaks the NS1 balance it's a bad thing is invalid. It might be that in the new scope (the 2/3 of non-NS1 stuff) this system works just fine, you'll still have early Marine aggression and Aliens holding out for 2nd Hive, AND this is implemented. It's just that the Marines have other methods available to them to tip the balance. Or, they might set up the tech that Marines are the ones that need to hold out for more power in the early, then push mid, but need to finish before Aliens get late game.
So, I would rather use NS1 as a base, and build new and interesting ideas form there. Not try to think of how we need to re-balance NS1 and how much of a pain it would be to implement this new shiny feature.
The game needs at least something to keep the fights going. If you take a look at early co rounds, you can see the problem: there's nothing driving the game forward. People just sit back and hope someone makes a mistake and gives xp. Most often the first attacker loses the advantage there. The same goes if neither of the teams has an early advantage. I guess you could still force one team to push forward, but on 1:1 it's difficult to achieve any kind of results while attacking. I'm shooting blind at this point, since we haven't got an idea how the gameplay works, but I think the logic still works to some extend.
NS solved this by giving teams some advantage at certain points of game and the whole pressure/momentum system was quite interesting at its best.