Squads in NS2, a new concept proposal

StixNStonz · February 2009

<div class="IPBDescription">(spawning, vulnerabilities, costs, alternatives)</div><div align="center">Squads in NS2

A new concept proposal</div>

Squads in NS2 have so much potential... potential that was completely missed in NS1. The NS1 squad system is only useful for the comm to bind hotkeys to his arms lab, obs' and whatever other structures he deems worthy of quick access or immediate visual notification of damage. [Please, please retain the 5 slots available for this, as these are hugely important for the commander]

As for NS2 Squads? Since they're still in-the-works design wise, I figured I'd give a shot at outlining a totally new system, incorporating many of the design goals that have been discussed. The following gameplay system proposal begins with a section on how a player can spawn back with his squad, followed by a section on how squads are formed.

<div align="center">Spawning a player back into his Squad</div>

The following is the sequence of events that would occur in this squad spawning system. It is broken down line-by-line afterward.

1. You have a Squad Leader and a few squad members. One dies.
2. The marine spawns on the IP in base.
3. The Commander has teched "Squad Phase Tech", and the marine +uses the IP while standing on the IP.
4. The Squad Leader, when he is ready, marks a spawnpoint very close to himself.
5. The squad then defends the vulnerable spawnpoint for a few seconds until the marine spawns in.

We begin with a squad that has already formed; how they are formed is covered in the section further down, Forming Squads.
We begin with this line:

*** 1. You have a Squad Leader and a few squad members. One dies. ***

This was where NS1's squad system dropped the ball. Marines die all the time, and it's pointless and frankly annoying to have squad members dispersed all around. So, it has been said that squad members should be able to spawn with their squad. This would make the entire system worthwhile, and awesome. But how do you do implement it in a balanced manner?

First:

*** 2. The marine spawns on the IP in base. ***

You have a dead marine who is in the spawn queue and wants to get back to his squad. I believe the player should first spawn on an IP, for many reasons. I say this because some have suggested that a marine can spawn directly from the spawn queue into the squad's location. Aside from the spectacular Beacon, IPs should be the only lifeblood of bringing marines back from the dead.

Recap:
1. You have a Squad Leader and a few squad members. One dies.
2. The marine spawns on the IP in base.

Next:

*** 3. The Commander has teched "Squad Phase Tech", and the marine +uses the IP while standing on the IP. ***

This is when tech should become involved. An additional upgrade would be available on the obs called Squad Phase Tech. I would suggest a cost of 20 res and less-than-pg tech time. No prerequisites.

Once Squad Phase Tech is upgraded, any IP can be +used (while the player stands on it) to put it into Squad Spawn Mode. When in this mode, the IP would give some simple visual notification, perhaps turning on two bright blue lights on the model.

An IP in Squad Spawn Mode will not spawn marines. It will only stay in Squad Spawn Mode while there is a marine standing on the IP who is part of a squad; otherwise the IP will go back to normal (with the lights turning off) and keep spawning in marines like normal. The regular respawn timer for the IP could even ignore the time spent in Squad Spawn Mode to avoid griefers. Other methods to avoid griefers are explained in the section further down, Forming Squads.

The marine is now ready to spawn into his squad. But that just means that he is ready, not that it will happen right away, if at all.

Recap:
1. You have a Squad Leader and a few squad members. One dies.
2. The marine spawns on the IP in base.
3. The Commander has teched "Squad Phase Tech", and the marine +uses the IP while standing on the IP.

Next:

*** 4. The Squad Leader, when he is ready, marks a spawnpoint very close to himself. ***

With the marine ready back at base, we go to the actual squad, out in The S*** (mmm, 'Nam movies). They've lost a squad member, but he's ready to spawn back in with them.

The Squad Leader should either press a key to mark the ground in front of him for the spawnpoint, or he should have a weapon (same slot as knife?) that he points to the ground and clicks to mark the spawnpoint. By forcing the spawnpoint to be basically within melee range, it avoids all the issues that could come with a ranged or procedural spawnpoint selection system.

Recap:
1. You have a Squad Leader and a few squad members. One dies.
2. The marine spawns on the IP in base.
3. The Commander has teched "Squad Phase Tech", and the marine +uses the IP while standing on the IP.
4. The Squad Leader, when he is ready, marks a spawnpoint very close to himself.

Next:

*** 5. The squad then defends the vulnerable spawnpoint for a few seconds until the marine spawns in. ***

With a spawnpoint selected, particles start flowing up around the marine on the IP, and also at the spawnpoint. The marine on the IP can move and shoot, but if he moves off the IP, the Squad Spawn is aborted immediately and the IP goes back into normal mode.

If not aborted, a thick particle effect should buildup at the spawnpoint for about 4 seconds, making a very loud and distinct noise, after which the marine spawns right there.

This is where the vulnerability should come in. While the particles build up at the spawnpoint, they should be 'highly unstable'. That is, if an alien touches it, it emits a blast. Like a Ghost Structure, this spawnpoint would only be alien-activated by touch, but would explode and disappear rather than just disappear. The amount of damage the blast would deal to the triggering alien is up for debate (none, half or full). The blast damage could be a set number, or it could be proportional to how close the spawning process was to completion. The marine on the IP should take damage but remain on the IP (with the squad spawning now canceled); the IP itself should take a medium amount of damage (1/4 or so), and the blast emitted from the spawnpoint should deal damage to everyone nearby.

This would create an environment where the respawning of a member into his squad would become a mini-event of its own. You really want to avoid overpowering a squad respawn system, so by adding such a vulnerability and a small time investment, it can become it's own small side objective. The squad would likely halt its advance, find a good location nearby, and then quickly set up a sort of on-the-fly defensive position while the spawning sequence runs its course. It could even be attempted under duress.

Final Recap of the whole process:

1. You have a Squad Leader and a few squad members. One dies.
2. The marine spawns on the IP in base.
3. The Commander has teched "Squad Phase Tech", and the marine +uses the IP while standing on the IP.
4. The Squad Leader, when he is ready, marks a spawnpoint very close to himself.
5. The squad then defends the vulnerable spawnpoint for a few seconds until the marine spawns in.

Additional Notes:

* The ability for the commander to create Squads and a Squad Leader could be locked until Squad Phase Tech is researched. This would avoid the early-game aggravations of having Squads without any real use to them. I touch on this more in the section further down, Forming Squads.

* If the squad spawning is sabotaged (hit by an alien), the IP used for it will be disabled for five seconds, shooting out small sparks and perhaps taking damage (1/4 hp).

* If a weapon is to be used by the Squad Leader to mark the spawnpoint, perhaps it could have its own 'energy', much like an Obs. As such, it would not need a cooldown, but you could balance the cost of a spawn versus the max reserve and the recharge time. I would suggest 100 max energy, a cost of 30 for each spawnpoint marker, and a recharge rate identical to the Obs'.

* An additional mechanic could be introduced by making Umbra cancel the spawning, without an explosion. It would give the aliens a single ranged ability to cancel the process (spit etc wouldn't affect it), but still cost the squad leader the energy for the marker, while also giving the Lerk an additional support role. It would even encourage the marines defending the spawnpoint to stay a bit more spread out than they would otherwise.

* By making this ability require tech from the obs, it would allow the early game to feel more rugged (and probably balanced), while also giving the commander the option to rush this tech instead of phase tech. You can see how this would actually be a very viable alternative initial tech to PG tech.

<div align="center">Forming Squads</div>

You'll be glad to hear this section is significantly shorter than the previous <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

The actual act of forming a squad has not been touched on quite yet. I bring this up because of one main concern: the formation of squads needs to be regulated due to the strength of the spawning-in ability. Troop sizes, locations and equipment are the paramount concern in everything the commander does, as each directly affects the projection of force for the marines. Teleporting marines across the map can't just be allowed willy-nilly if you expect balanced gameplay.

So how do you make a squad?

The Squad Leader

The most important squad member is the Squad Leader. Such a role has to be assigned by the commander, and it can't be in the field, or at least needs to be restricted or costly to be done in the field. As such, perhaps the best way to restrict the creation of Squad Leaders is to let the commander only be able to upgrade them within the range of the CC (think of how far you can place IPs from the CC). Given their special abilities, I would also put a 10 res price tag on their upgrade. 5 res, the cost of a welder, seems like it would lead to Squad Leaders being made all the time, whereas 10, the cost of a shotgun (or a gorge) seems like a more reasonable cost.

Lost your squad leader in the field, and you want to take over in his place? Put a price tag on that, not just in res but in vulnerability. How about the same cost of 10 res, but it is now accompanied by a 6 second period where his weapon is holstered and his movement is frozen. 'Hold tight while we calibrate the personal phase module'. That should be plenty for balancing such a powerful ability to be received out in the field, and still costs less than a phase gate.

The comm should either be able to click on the marine and see his info come up in the bottom bar, and then have a button for Upgrade to Squad Leader. If the devs want to avoid so much UI work, an alternative would be to simply right-click on a marine and have a drop-down list of options, one being the Squad Leader upgrade.

Squad Members

Now, squad members. We want to encourage the squads to form in base, so, let marines be free to join a squad if both them and the squad leader are within the CC's range. The CC's range might actually need a boost to make all this a bit smoother, and it wouldn't be a big deal to have IPs a bit further out.

But marines joining a squad out in the field? Use the same vulnerability method as with upgrading Squad Leaders in the field. Have the marine come within the squad leader's range, and then the comm right-clicks on him (usually at his request), and click the Add To Squad button. Then, the player holsters his weapon and cannot move for four seconds.

This sort of Squad forming and joining system would encourage proper forming of squads within the base by making it free there and costly out in the field. It is still easily done out in the field, and doesn't even cost res for marines simply joining a squad, but it does cost time and vulnerability, which makes for far more interesting gameplay.

Griefing?

Players could try to exploit the Squad Spawn Mode of the IPs, and further above in this post. That is, a player can +use an IP to ready it to teleport the player to his spawn, shutting off the IPs normal function. In such a case, a comm needs an UnSquad button, or at Disallow Squad Membership button if the system allows player's to create their own squads.

Non-Phasing Squad Bonuses and Tech Requirements

As mentioned further above in this post, Squads could potentially have their own tech prerequisite. The tech prerequisite used throughout this proposal was the Squad Phase Tech, but that only applies to the phasing ability. I strongly believe the phasing ability of squads needs such a tech prerequisite. If squads are only useful for the phase ability, it would probably be prudent, design-wise, to only unlock the Squad abilities once the tech has been researched (to avoid the NS1 pointlessness of squads).

But what if squads were given other, smaller advantages? Here is an example list of the boosts that could be given to all squad members within a certain radius of the Squad Leader:

- 10% faster buildspeed
- 5% faster movement speed
- 20% more armor given per weld tick
- 10% faster knife rate of fire

These are all very small boosts, but fairly significant when applied to what is necessarily a group of marines. It does not affect any weapon, hp or armor values, hence not creating a headache of massive proportions in terms of balance. I do not consider the knife boost in the same class as a normal weapon boost, as the knife is almost solely used for taking down undefended enemy structures.

With minor boosts like these, Squads could be allowed right at the beginning of the game (before Squad Phase Tech is researched). Or, a new tech, Squad Tech, could be added onto the armory to unlock it. At a cost and research time identical to Hand Grenades, it would be a very viable alternative tech route compared to Hand Grenades (the standard first-tech of almost all non-euro comms), and even against the Advanced Armory.

NS tech is all about choice, and opening up new tech paths as such would add greatly to the depth of the game.

-------------------------------------------------------

This has been quite an essay (damn, almost 2600 words). Took many hours to sort everything out, but I feel it's a fully-fleshed out proposal.

I probably missed a few characteristics or issues related to squads, so I will update this as necessary.

Thoughts?

KuBaN · February 2009

I suggested more or less the same thing, albeit in fewer words and with less colors.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105626" target="_blank">Squad Spawns</a>

At this point it seems better to post single, modular suggestions as opposed to entire gameplay concepts, since it appears the devs already have a grand idea that they're planning on adhering to, and what they'd need --if anything--is a spark of inspiration that an open-ended suggestion might grant. Something they'd be able to adapt to their idea. Suggesting something with strict values, rules, and requirements makes it sound like a larger undertaking than it really may be. Best to leave the mathematic details to after it's been considered.

Just my opinion though, I could be wrong. If not, there are two posts of roughly the same idea in both formats (simple and detailed), so the likelihood of it being noticed is increased methinks.

locallyunscene · February 2009

I like the idea of +use on ip after squad phase research.

I was going to suggest "marines should automatically spawn on the squad leader rather than have him mark a point. Instead, let's say the "leader" has to be out of combat for 5-10 seconds(no shooting, no getting damaged).", but upon reflection I don't want marines to be encouraged to not shoot so I like your proposal of placing a spawn beacon that needs to be protected better.

Question: How is this different from a phase gate besides the obvious "you can place the beacon quicker"?

Max · February 2009

I think we talked about this in a podcast a long time ago, but in NS2 you will respawn with your squad sort of like in Halo 1 co-op mode.

StixNStonz · February 2009

Max:
Oh... hmm. I thought Charlie mentioned at the postmortem that he hadn't figured out the squad stuff yet. Maybe I'm not remembering it correctly, or maybe he meant he hadn't figured out the details of the system you mentioned. If so, hopefully this thread could give some of the right questions for him to answer.

So if a squad member dies, he'll just respawn right next to the squad leader after a few seconds? Damn. Well, I can see how it could work as opposed to the idea I put forth. It would be much more action-ey. The version I posted here has more drama, visuals and a sort of minigame, but that all slows down the process of marines pushing forward.

But then again, either system would be massively faster than the current NS environment.

I guess the big questions for the halo-style squad spawning are:

---How does a player become a squad leader? Is there a cost, or a location restriction? Maximum number of Squad Leaders?
---How does a player join a squad? Cost, location restriction?
---Can a player jump into the game, pick a squad on the other side of the map, and just teleport across?
---Can a player change squads and teleport across?
---Would a player still teleport to his squad leader if there are no IPs? No Obs?
---What happens if a player wants to get a shotgun or other equipment before rejoining the squad?
---How easy would it be to cancel a squad spawning and spawn at base, if the base is under attack, or a building to be built?
---Are there any disadvantages or advantages to being a squad leader?
---Are there any other bonuses for the squad members?
---Can a squad leader temporarily turn off his spawning ability, if he wants to ninja? Could he then turn it back on and bring in his squad?

Whether or not you guys have all these questions answered, I know it's a retail game and you don't need nor want to divulge ever detail. Hopefully these questions, and the proposal overall, can be some food for thought.

Another note about the speed of gameplay for both options. Marines immediately spawning with their squad leader is obviously the fastest, and the most noob-friendly system. But IMO it could create a bunch of other balance problems, and could potentially make the base feel less like a base (since you'd rarely see it anymore). In terms of gameplay, in this thread's version, it still only takes 4 seconds for a marine to spawn back with his squad once he's ready and the squad leader places a spawnpoint. If they weren't under duress, a squad leader could place it while running forward, and just tell the newly-spawned squad member to catch up. This would probably be how it would happen whenever they aren't under immediate attack.

Also, immediate spawning seems overpowered. In Halo 1, it practically made the two-spartan team unstoppable, even in Legendary. Beating Halo on Legendary was a joke if it was done through Coop (compared to solo at least). Not so in Halo 2 coop, which was the one game of the series where the respawn function was removed in legendary coop.

Think of how difficult it is for aliens to really assault a pack of 5 marines in current NS. With only skulks, the marines will generally own. With a good lerk, they can slowly chip away at their hp and numbers. With a fade, he can pick one or two off, but they'll still have all the time they need to get a PG up.

If that same pack of five marines can now respawn its dead, the entire scenario changes. A comm always min/max's his forces, and with 5 marines in a squad, I would be far more likely to give them a welder and a gun or two. They would be that much more likely to hold onto them all, make better use of them, and spawn more of their force back in. And that whole scenario is terrifying to imagine from an alien's perspective... it simply sounds unstoppable. Imagine adding HA into the mix? Yes the aliens could and would focus on the squad leader, but he would obviously be hand-picked as the best marine on the server. And we all know how rarely those marines die.

Gah, another /essay

locallyunscene:

Actually Locally, I forgot about that aspect of Halo respawning. You have to be out of battle. You're right, that's not a good environment for NS... it would seem almost useless, unless tied to a regional marker like Kuban's idea. In Halo coop, the enemies aren't exactly rushing you all the time... especially at leap / blink / flying speeds. To respawn a squad member, the leader would almost be forced to completely retreat way behind the battle, and given the huge chance of another marine dying while the squad leader moves way back, I'm guessing most SLs would see it as counter-productive, wouldn't even bother, and just get a PG up.

How is this thread's concept different from a PG? The concept from this thread is different in a bunch of ways. Although there's an initial cost for the squad leader (the same as a shotgun), he can use the squad spawning ability for free and it's not tied to a location like an obs. Both cost res, one is mobile, cheaper and has vulnerabilities, the other is slightly more expensive, static and no specific vulnerabilities.

The squad spawn system is also restricted by an obs-like Energy bar (pg is unrestricted), but that is mainly to stop a squad leader from respawning his entire squad, then doing it again right after. And it is all still dependent on the squad leader being alive, and only squad members can use it. The phase gate would still be the basis of any real projection of force, the Squad Spawn Tech would simply be a powerful boost to regular marine no-pg-yet pushes.

Kuban:

Its a good post you have there Kuban, and I read it right before i began working on this monstrosity, but I do feel the concept you posted is significantly different from this one.

First, your post says that the squad is forced to retreat to either their base or some forward outpost to recoup members. This is pretty much identical to current NS gameplay, if you say a PG is a forward outpost. Or, a new, cheap structure would have to be built as this forward outpost, which would allow just squad members to spawn in. This is pretty different from the marine 'prepping' himself in base (getting any equip he wants then +use'ing the ip), and then having the squad leader place a spawnpoint wherever he wants, plus the accompanied vulnerabilities.

Second, your post mentioned a differing system (like Halo's) where the squad needs to be out of combat but did not explain how this could actually be determined, or what gameplay it would lead to (which I think would be bad gameplay, like i mentioned above to LocallyUnscene). This thread's concept gives the squad leader the choice of where and when to spawn his squadmates, whether in combat or in quiet, where he can make a decision based on pros and cons.

And third, like this thread has tried to show, there are a lot of details with such a system that need to be ironed out and balanced (and might have not even been considered yet). Sure, it's a huge proposal, and it doesn't have to be followed to a T or even used at all, but at least it gives a full system explanation. This could be used as the first-draft of the squad system, which would obviously be modified or even completely revamped after playtesting. Or, it could simply be used as a reference while the devs build their own system, to remind them of aspects that need to be considered. Or it just goes to waste in Internet Land, which I fully knew as a possibility while I wrote it.

But hey, I love designing gameplay systems <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

Firewater · February 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Feb 6 2009, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Max:
Oh... hmm. I thought Charlie mentioned at the postmortem that he hadn't figured out the squad stuff yet. Maybe I'm not remembering it correctly, or maybe he meant he hadn't figured out the details of the system you mentioned. If so, hopefully this thread could give some of the right questions for him to answer.

So if a squad member dies, he'll just respawn right next to the squad leader after a few seconds? Damn. Well, I can see how it could work as opposed to the idea I put forth. It would be much more action-ey. The version I posted here has more drama, visuals and a sort of minigame, but that all slows down the process of marines pushing forward.

But then again, either system would be massively faster than the current NS environment.
I guess the big questions for the halo-style squad spawning are:

---How does a player become a squad leader? Is there a cost, or a location restriction? Maximum number of Squad Leaders?
---How does a player join a squad? Cost, location restriction?
---Can a player jump into the game, pick a squad on the other side of the map, and just teleport across?
---Can a player change squads and teleport across?
---Would a player still teleport to his squad leader if there are no IPs? No Obs?
---What happens if a player wants to get a shotgun or other equipment before rejoining the squad?
---How easy would it be to cancel a squad spawning and spawn at base, if the base is under attack, or a building to be built?
---Are there any disadvantages or advantages to being a squad leader?
---Are there any other bonuses for the squad members?
---Can a squad leader temporarily turn off his spawning ability, if he wants to ninja? Could he then turn it back on and bring in his squad?</div>

Thought I might chime in as well, as game design is something I am very interested in.

Squad leader can be assigned by the commander, or like in BF2, people can create their own squads.

Players can join a squad that they choose, however, I would put a limit on how many people can join a squad to prevent explotation (i.e. whole team joins a squad, squad leader camps out of combat and acts as a mobile spawn point, this would definitely happen with competitive players in a pub server)

As far as a player joining a squad, I think they should have free reign to join whatever squad they choose.

As far as spawning without IP, I think an IP would be required, and I think a player should have to wait in the spawn queue, if the squad leader is unavailable to be spawned on, that player can choose to wait until the squad leader is ready, OR spawn back in base.

Spawn leader advantages, I am not sure, however I think it should be clearly marked for the aliens (and marines too) who is the squad leader (perhaps a star on the helmet). Aliens now can devise a strategy/tactics to take out the squad leader to force spawning back at the base.

I wouldn't mind seeing some bonuses for squad members, but nothing too overpowering. Maybe a slight amount of damage resistance or a slight boost in speed. I like the idea of a faster weld time and other squad oriented activities getting a bonus. I definitely would not add damage or health to the players in a squad.

I think if a squad leader does not want people spawning on him that the player should forfeit the squad leader right and just leave the squad if they decide to go solo for whatever reason.

Hope these suggestions help.

Harimau · February 2009

Hmm, I like the method that Max has already given.

And for some reason people think that we actually need squad leaders. I've gotta say I dislike the idea of a squad leader. The commander is leader enough.

This is the way I see it happening. Well there are a number of ways, but all similar in terms of spawning.

A) Auto-squadding by proximity.
1. A number of marines group up, the system determines that they're forming a squad and they are assigned as a squad.
2. If a marine moves away from his squad, after some time he becomes un-assigned.
3. If an un-assigned marine moves towards another squad, after some time moving with the group he will join their squad.
4. If the marine dies while still assigned, he will respawn in proximity with his squad.

B) Manual squadding.
1. Commander selects a number of units (will there be dragging?), assigns them a number.
2. Players may or may not have the ability to join or leave pre-established squads. Depends on what we're gonna do with squads I guess.
3. If a marine dies, he will respawn in proximity with his squad.

C) Player-assigned squads. Similar to Battlefield, minus the leader.
1. There's a maximum number of squads.
2. A player simply opts to join one of the squads (each squad is pre-defined with zero members, but with a certain maximum number of members).
3. A player can leave a squad any time he wishes, and similarly, join another squad any time he wishes.
4. If a marine dies, he will respawn in proximity with his squad.

The only problems I can think of are when you have a number of dead squad members (eg. all except one), or when a squad splits into different parts, where will dead squad members spawn to? This is the only reason I can see for a 'leader', but then he'd really only be a 'hub', and if he dies or moves independently, there's our problem - queued/further deaths spawn from the start again or away from the bulk of the squad - which was my biggest issue with the battlefield series' squad spawning.
As well as the lack of indication to the alien team that there are reinforcements spawning in, but this could easily be remedied with some sort of graphical indicator.

Also consider that <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105626" target="_blank">other idea</a> in the forum regarding 'retreating' for reinforcements.

######, this post got a lot longer than intended.

EmpV · February 2009

The spawn system suggested by StixNStonz is a good start, but it needs work. It is a good system, it just needs some of the complex stuff cut out.

Like Harimau suggested, I also think squad leaders need to be cut from the system. Squads will be much more fun without them.

I really like the idea of Auto proximity squadding.
Players shouldn't have to take any extra time picking or organizing a squad. You want them out of marine start ASAP!
They just move with a group of teammates and become a part of a squad automatically. No spawn menu's, just join up with some teammates. Simple. Noob Friendly.

The squad spawning process itself needs to be less complex and should be transparent to players. 
Marines shouldn't have to wait long in a queue or mark spawn points.

I heartily agree that marines should spawn at the IP and then choose whether or not to teleport to their previous squad. If everyone is being teleported directly to the squad then who will build marine structures or defend marine start? How do they get weapons?

Here are some simplified options for squad spawning that are limited in some way and don't require a lot of player interaction:

1. Spawn energy system

When you spawn at the IP and are in range of an obs, there is an indicator on your hud of how much team spawn energy is available. If there is enough energy, you choose to teleport to your previous squad or stay at marine start. This could possibly be activated using +use on the IP or obs like in StixNStonz' original idea. If the team runs out of spawn energy the players will just see that there is not enough energy and the squads will stop being reinforced. The energy will have to be balanced so that not all marines can spawn back into a squad at one time.

2. Weld/spawn bot 

The new Weld bot could be used to help limit the squad spawning process. Unlike an obs or a phase gate, it is mobile and moves with a squad. If a squad has a weld bot then squad spawning is possible. The weld bot would function kind of like the Protoss Arbitor in Starcraft. It has the ability to teleport marines that are within range of an obs to its position. There could also be an energy system involved here. The weld/spawn bot could have limited spawn energy or it could be a weak unit that is easily destroyed by aliens. The commander gets involved by building the weld/spawn bots and assigning them to follow squads.

So theres some ideas to chew on...

Jimyd · February 2009

I got some simple solutions Max.

Here we go:

1) Marines cannot spawn onto a squad leader standing on Dynamic Infestation (Lore: Infestation messes up teleporter/phase telemetry... wouldn't want to stick the TSA Marines into walls would we?)

2) To reduce early game inbalance, make the Marine Commander to have a fully built and functional Observatory with Phase Tech reasearched (however no phasegate has to be built).

3) Make Squad Leader spawns selectable like in BF2/BF2142 with the full map button (obviously this means the full map would be turned into a toggleable map). With this the Marine (alive or dead) can either select his Squad Leader or select a fully built Command Chair.

4) This is something additional I'm throwing in: When you select a fully built Command Chair, the player will only spawn at active IP's within that Command Chair's sphere of influence (build radius basically). This would allow a Commander to give his Marines the ability to spawn at forward bases, if the Commander wishes to spend the resources for the extra CC+IPs.

That is all for now.

Firewater · February 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jimyd @ Feb 9 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I got some simple solutions Max.

Here we go:

1) Marines cannot spawn onto a squad leader standing on Dynamic Infestation (Lore: Infestation messes up teleporter/phase telemetry... wouldn't want to stick the TSA Marines into walls would we?)

2) To reduce early game inbalance, make the Marine Commander to have a fully built and functional Observatory with Phase Tech reasearched (however no phasegate has to be built).

3) Make Squad Leader spawns selectable like in BF2/BF2142 with the full map button (obviously this means the full map would be turned into a toggleable map). With this the Marine (alive or dead) can either select his Squad Leader or select a fully built Command Chair.

4) This is something additional I'm throwing in: When you select a fully built Command Chair, the player will only spawn at active IP's within that Command Chair's sphere of influence (build radius basically). This would allow a Commander to give his Marines the ability to spawn at forward bases, if the Commander wishes to spend the resources for the extra CC+IPs.

That is all for now.</div>
Solid ideas but some points I would like to make.

1)I would stick to simply having no conflict for X amount of seconds for the squad leader, if any enemy can see the squad leader than he cannot be spawned on.

2) I don't think this is neccessary (not a bad idea though) what I would do instead is make squad spawning IP dependent meaning that players would not get a spawn time bonus for spawning on the SL. What a player can do is wait the normal IP time and decide to spawn on the SL or back where an available IP is. If the squad leader is busy he can wait for the SL to escape conflict and then spawn on him or her, OR spawn at base on the IP itsself. To not penalize other players, after a squadmate waits out his spawn time, he would go into a seperatte queue to spawn on the leader, OR sacrifice that and spawn back at base. If the leader dies in combat, the squadmate in the queue automatically spawns in base.

3) Sounds good

4) That works as well, the player can pick whatever CC with IPs at a given location, however one problem to this is what if the CC dies and there are still IPs active, how would the player spawn?

StixNStonz · February 2009

Doesn't it seem like most of these alternatives really make the regular PG almost obsolete? Especially when we haven't discussed a key aspect of squad spawning, which is, how are squad leaders created? You simply can't let just anyone become a squad leader at anytime. The balance issues with an unrestricted squad leader system are insane.

pellaaja · February 2009

NS1 spawning worked fine imo. Why change that? Standing in line waiting to respawn in base was enough reason NOT to get killed. I don't like the idea of magically spawning out of thin air at some random point in map.

The proximity squad sounds interesting.

1mannARMEE · February 2009

pellaaja instead of spawning magically somewhere you spawn magically somewhere under an IP or a PG or a Spawnpoint created by a squadleader, I don't see a problem in that.

There should be a limit of squad leaders depending on the number of players on the server or depending on the number of squads you basically need to play NS2. let's say 3 or 4 that operate in different locations or on different things.

It might be fun to add those Bonuses you told about in the first post, but you might add restrictions.

You can Tag someone as a Leader, you can choose afterwards to make him a Squadleader for a Builder squad, giving him and his squad mates the ability to build x% faster but deal x% less damage or receive x% additional damage.

By the way, how does the the HALO spawn system actually work ? Never played that game (I once saw the ugly person in his strange green suit and thought this game would suck ... )

The system is quite nice, stixnotz but you really have to cut some of the complex stuff out without harming the balance and that's really hard to do.

1mannARMEE · February 2009

sorry my crappy internet somehow made it possible for me to double post this :S

locallyunscene · February 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1mannARMEE @ Feb 10 2009, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>By the way, how does the the HALO spawn system actually work ? Never played that game ...</div>
Well for Halo 1 it's exceedingly simple. After you die you spectate near your surviving squad members (which consisted of one other person) with a small count down timer until you respawn a set distance a little behind your teammate. Stix mentioned being out of combat is a part of it too, but that would be slightly different in a MP game as opposed to a SP game so we don't know how/if they are including this restriction.

StixNStonz · February 2009

The system i'd proposed really isn't that complex, I just tried to answer all the questions before they were asked.

The comm chooses who's a squad leader within CC range, or outside for a higher price.
The comm chooses who's in his squad, same deal.

If a squad member dies, he spawns on the IP and can +use to IP to be ready to spawn with his squad.
The squad leader sets a spawnpoint for him, which is vulnerable for a few seconds, then spawns him in.

If the squad leader dies, its over.

It's really not that complicated, and it covers all the bases. IMO, any simplication, like the Halo system, will lead to horrendous balance issues; and we all know how long it took to balance NS. Godspeed, devs.

spellman23 · February 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Feb 11 2009, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The comm chooses who's a squad leader within CC range, or outside for a higher price.
The comm chooses who's in his squad, same deal.</div>

While the comm choosing the squad leader is a little micro heavy for me, I can accept it. Other games that have squad systems allow self-creating squads and self-appointed squad leaders, but this is NS2 and I guess the comms should have more of a say in this matter.

As far as choosing who is in what squad, I think this should be left more up to the players. However, to prevent insta squad switching (everyone join squad 1 now!!!), some cost/cooldown would have to be implemented. The reason I believe it should be more for the players to choose is that while in competitive the commander choosing is perfectly legit, in random pubs how do you know if the people you're putting together will even work together? I'd rather have a self-selection system. Or, maybe you petition to join a squad (or several squads), and the squad leaders can accept and reject using PgUP and PgDWN. Still gives control instead of randomly joining a squad ans screwing with them, but lets the players group up as they'd like.

StixNStonz · February 2009

At the very least (and this was part of my proposal), people should NOT be able to join squads without first being physically near the squad leader. Being able to choose a squad on the other side of the map and then phasing over (or suiciding, then phasing over) would lead to normal walking around and exploring feel like a waste of time, which I believe is a fundamental aspect of NS.

spellman23 · February 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Feb 11 2009, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>At the very least (and this was part of my proposal), people should NOT be able to join squads without first being physically near the squad leader. Being able to choose a squad on the other side of the map and then phasing over (or suiciding, then phasing over) would lead to normal walking around and exploring feel like a waste of time, which I believe is a fundamental aspect of NS.</div>

Very perceptive, and I totally agree with you. A proximity system (or else pay for it) would be very useful, but I'd rather it be to the squad leader. Maybe leave in the comm choice as well if next to CC, but that's still slightly exploitable, albeit the comm has to micro more heavily as a payment.

Harimau · February 2009

And my counter-'proposal' is that there should not BE a squad leader. I think you're over-complicating things. Yes, I agree our alternatives do make the PG somewhat obsolete, but you're going to have several squads, so in one scenario one squad could set up the PG, while the other squads, and other unassigned players, would phase in through it, so it wouldn't be completely useless.

EmpV · February 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 11 2009, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>And my counter-'proposal' is that there should not BE a squad leader. I think you're over-complicating things. Yes, I agree our alternatives do make the PG somewhat obsolete, but you're going to have several squads, so in one scenario one squad could set up the PG, while the other squads, and other unassigned players, would phase in through it, so it wouldn't be completely useless.</div>

I agree. NO Squad Leaders. From a coding standpoint, a squad leader is much more work and creates other issues with balancing, exploits, etc... The only reason I see to have a squad leader is to make a location where players spawn. This is bad for gameplay because what you end up with is a squad leader hiding in a dark corner so that his squad can continue to spawn on him... (I would hate being a squad leader and be told to stay back and hide..... I want to shoot aliens!!!) It would be more fun to have players spawn where the largest number of squad members are.(in case the squad gets separated)

Squad spawning doesn't have to make the phase gate obsolete. It all depends on how squad spawning is limited. It shouldn't be possible to respawn your entire squad at one time or to spawn players over and over in a short time period. There must be either a resource limit(res/energy), a time limit(queue/spawn delay) or some other limit like placing a spawn location/ being out of combat. I vote for whatever limit is least complex, requires the least work for players, and keeps squad spawning fun.
Whatever limits are used, the phase gate should be preferred over squad spawning because it is FREE UNLIMITED 2-way teleportation.

An idea just popped into my head that could get the commander involved with squad spawning. In "Company of Heroes", squads can be reinforced when they lose units. There is an icon on the screen when a squad is selected that you can click to queue reinforcements.(see image below/circled in red) It takes a few seconds to process. When the squad is in range of a barracks or appropriate vehicle, the units that have been lost are reinforced.

Something similar to this could be used to allow the commander to reinforce squads in NS2. When the squad is selected and squad members are killed, the commander can click a reinforce icon and they are reinforced to the squad when they meet the proper criteria. (enough energy/res, in range of obs, out of combat, however it works...) This could allow squad spawning to use team resources and let the commander decide if the squad needs to be reinforced.

<a href="http://imageshack.us" target="_blank"><img src="http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2272/reinforceix9.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

Just another idea...

Radix · February 2009

COMMANDER I CANT GO IN MY SQUAD LEADER DIED - ILL HAVE TO RESPAWN IN BASE!

1mannARMEE · February 2009

Radix is somehow right <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> it would tear the squads apart if their squad leaders die so you have the same problem again.

So add some special, not so safe, positions throughout the map where you can reinforce your marines through the methods already mentioned by StixNStonz so you can set up a point where the squad member respawns and he uses the IP portal in the base, now you just have to lock down the squads so that you can't switch around with them all the time.

MasterPTG · February 2009

I'm pretty sure the squad system will have to be heavily tweaked no matter what the implementation of it is.

However, I prefer:
- the marines spawning at base* and then
-walking over to the base PG** and then
-phasing to either a phase gate or an available squad leader***

*Forcing the players to spawn with their squad could be detrimental in many instances when marines need to go back to base for weapons or defending base or striking out in a new direction. Also, it would slow the pace of reinforcements which might be needed for balance.
**(should have two distinct model sections...one to transport to other PGs and one for phasing to a squad leader).
***If a phase gate or an available squad leader does not exist, then the marines obviously can't phase anywhere. Also, a limit on "phase energy" for phasing marines to squads (phase energy would not exist for PG to PG phasing) should exist, so that 10 marines can't flood 2-3 squads next to a hive within a few seconds.

1mannARMEE · February 2009

I still would screw the Leader idea. You just have to lock the amount of squads you can have down to 3 or 4 and disable "teleportation" between squads, so if you want to change your squad there should be a cooldown involved so you can't switch through those different squad members.

If the squad splits up and a dead member wants to teleport back to his squad it should be to there where the most members are present or be disabled if there are not enough members, to prevent having a walking ninja PG Rambo Marine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.

It should take some time to "summon" (it just feels like world of warcraft warlock summoning to me :S ) your squad member and during that time the current squad should be on guard.

It shouldn't make the squad that performs some kind of "summoning" to be weakend too much, because it may occur that the just respawned squad members waits forever to get "summoned" by his squad members but they are afraid of nearby aliens, so they decided to wait ...

I hope you get what I mean. And I think the devs will think through this stuff clearly so there won't be any balance issues.

It would be very hard to have some HAs respawning next to your hive all the time <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> so it should be disabled on Infestation or near Hives to prevent such things.

Squads in NS2, a new concept proposal

Comments