Let me tell you what I'm thinking here: EVE seems to me, an outside observer, to be an environment populated by people with too much attachment to the illusion of control and order. Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything I've heard and seen so far details a largely ordered universe. Everybody seems to be in it for the ISK. As I hinted at before, it sounds like a bunch of geeks sitting around punching numbers into spreadsheets and make decisions based on profit margins and risk analysis. Just look at the whole BoB incident: It seems to me that it was generally considered a good thing because it introduced a little excitement into the virtual boardroom.
<!--quoteo(post=1701145:date=Feb 22 2009, 03:41 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 22 2009, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me tell you what I'm thinking here: EVE seems to me, an outside observer, to be an environment populated by people with too much attachment to the illusion of control and order. Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything I've heard and seen so far details a largely ordered universe. Everybody seems to be in it for the ISK. As I hinted at before, it sounds like a bunch of geeks sitting around punching numbers into spreadsheets and make decisions based on profit margins and risk analysis. Just look at the whole BoB incident: It seems to me that it was generally considered a good thing because it introduced a little excitement into the virtual boardroom.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how to respond to this. I mean, every game is "ordered" as in you don't have complete freedom but as far as EvE goes there are no artificial limits imposed on the game. You can attack anyone anywhere anytime. You can lie/scam/swindle people out of money and CCP won't bat an eye. All "order" in the game is player enforced, usually inside of a corp/alliance structure. Whether or not you want to take the game that seriously is up to you. EvE IS math heavy. So if you are the kind of person who might say something like "like, math is totally like so hard and stuff! Why are there letters in my numbers I don't understand!" then EvE might not be the game for you. For example: A weapon type in the game are missiles. Every missile has a velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. When you fire a missile it will approach the enemy ship with x velocity, so your first problem is if your target is traveling faster then the missile you won't be able to do damage to them. Now assuming it is able to hit them you now have to take into the account the enemies ship size. Every ship has a signature radius which varies directly with the ship size, if the ships signature radius is less then the explosion radius you will only do partial of the missiles set damage base. If the enemies ships current velocity is higher then the explosion velocity a % of the missiles base damage will again be taken off. Now you obviously don't have to actually work out the math if you don't want to since all this really means is large missiles do less damage vs smaller faster ships, as intuition should have told you anyway. Understanding the "why" of EvE is integral to playing effectively or else you'll become just like every other noob who loses a $50mil isk Battlecruiser to 3 noobs flying frigates that are worth less then your ammunition. This isn't even scratching the surface either.
<!--quoteo(post=1701157:date=Feb 22 2009, 07:18 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 22 2009, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how to respond to this. I mean, every game is "ordered" as in you don't have complete freedom but as far as EvE goes there are no artificial limits imposed on the game. You can attack anyone anywhere anytime. You can lie/scam/swindle people out of money and CCP won't bat an eye. All "order" in the game is player enforced, usually inside of a corp/alliance structure. Whether or not you want to take the game that seriously is up to you. EvE IS math heavy. So if you are the kind of person who might say something like "like, math is totally like so hard and stuff! Why are there letters in my numbers I don't understand!" then EvE might not be the game for you. For example: A weapon type in the game are missiles. Every missile has a velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. When you fire a missile it will approach the enemy ship with x velocity, so your first problem is if your target is traveling faster then the missile you won't be able to do damage to them. Now assuming it is able to hit them you now have to take into the account the enemies ship size. Every ship has a signature radius which varies directly with the ship size, if the ships signature radius is less then the explosion radius you will only do partial of the missiles set damage base. If the enemies ships current velocity is higher then the explosion velocity a % of the missiles base damage will again be taken off. Now you obviously don't have to actually work out the math if you don't want to since all this really means is large missiles do less damage vs smaller faster ships, as intuition should have told you anyway. Understanding the "why" of EvE is integral to playing effectively or else you'll become just like every other noob who loses a $50mil isk Battlecruiser to 3 noobs flying frigates that are worth less then your ammunition. This isn't even scratching the surface either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All "order" in the game is player enforced, usually inside of a corp/alliance structure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats sort of my point. The environment of EVE seems to be made up entirely of these types that voluntarily organize themselves in this rigid fashion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EvE IS math heavy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Disappointing. Remember when I said that the problem I have with MMOs is that they're too much like work and not enough like a game? This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I don't want to have to analyze spreadsheets and formulas in my recreation time.
<!--quoteo(post=1701157:date=Feb 23 2009, 12:18 AM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 23 2009, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how to respond to this. I mean, every game is "ordered" as in you don't have complete freedom but as far as EvE goes there are no artificial limits imposed on the game. You can attack anyone anywhere anytime. You can lie/scam/swindle people out of money and CCP won't bat an eye. All "order" in the game is player enforced, usually inside of a corp/alliance structure. Whether or not you want to take the game that seriously is up to you. EvE IS math heavy. So if you are the kind of person who might say something like "like, math is totally like so hard and stuff! Why are there letters in my numbers I don't understand!" then EvE might not be the game for you. For example: A weapon type in the game are missiles. Every missile has a velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. When you fire a missile it will approach the enemy ship with x velocity, so your first problem is if your target is traveling faster then the missile you won't be able to do damage to them. Now assuming it is able to hit them you now have to take into the account the enemies ship size. Every ship has a signature radius which varies directly with the ship size, if the ships signature radius is less then the explosion radius you will only do partial of the missiles set damage base. If the enemies ships current velocity is higher then the explosion velocity a % of the missiles base damage will again be taken off. Now you obviously don't have to actually work out the math if you don't want to since all this really means is large missiles do less damage vs smaller faster ships, as intuition should have told you anyway. Understanding the "why" of EvE is integral to playing effectively or else you'll become just like every other noob who loses a $50mil isk Battlecruiser to 3 noobs flying frigates that are worth less then your ammunition. This isn't even scratching the surface either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand what you just said there but it doesn't make a lot of sense :/
if your missle's explosion is so big it engulfs the target in flame completely it does less damage (or to be precise it does a lesser % of it's total damage value) than if it had just been a small crater in the target ship's side. I can understand the implications from a design point of view but from a user point of view that's considerably unintuitive. Also, is explosion velocity a scalar comparison or is it a proper vector? (e.g. if they're flying right towards ground zero of the explosion do they still take reduced damage from their speed?)
I'm not sure it is, actually. It's more like large missiles being overkill. If I put a piece of artillery in a field somewhere, you could drop a nuke on it, and that'd destroy it quite handily - but it'd be a huge waste of resources. You could also just drop a 200 pound gravity bomb with regular, boring TNT in it and that'd still do the job. In Eve, there's the additional issue that large missiles are slower and less maneuverable, so the "nuke" might miss the target completely and not work at all. It's a fairly simple rule to memorise, I'd say: Ordnance should fit the size of the target. Too small and it does insufficient damage. Too large and it doesn't hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1701160:date=Feb 22 2009, 07:47 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Feb 22 2009, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand what you just said there but it doesn't make a lot of sense :/
if your missle's explosion is so big it engulfs the target in flame completely it does less damage (or to be precise it does a lesser % of it's total damage value) than if it had just been a small crater in the target ship's side. I can understand the implications from a design point of view but from a user point of view that's considerably unintuitive. Also, is explosion velocity a scalar comparison or is it a proper vector? (e.g. if they're flying right towards ground zero of the explosion do they still take reduced damage from their speed?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for the first part consider a firecracker. You could set it off on the palm of your hand and not take a great deal of pain since if you consider it's explosion as a sphere of energy then your hand only clips with about half of it. However if you were to close your hand around it, well you will be missing a few fingers. Not a perfect analogy but do you see where I'm coming from? The explosion velocity is treated purely as a magnitude, which can be explained because A: The servers don't have that much processing power B: The explosions always 'appear' to occur directly beside/behind the ship so in all cases you are flying away from the explosion making their mathematical model accurate.
There are other errors in the use of physics in EvE though (Why do ships have a max velocity?), but they generally don't effect the gameplay too much.
I don't really buy the explosion radius thing you explained but fair enough on the velocity :3
To answer my own question though I suppose that once you're engulfed you can't really be damaged much more right? That said, I'd expect the scaling to be inversely logarythmic; the outer reaches of an explosion will likely be less lethal than the point of detonation.
That said, I honestly can't even begin to fathom how explosions work in space anyhoo :p There's no air to ignite so flames would be fairly unlikely and I'm extremely curious to the point where I might go google it on what happens to concussive blastwaves in a vacuum :o Shrapnel in space would also be a whoooole new ballgame :3
<!--quoteo(post=1701159:date=Feb 22 2009, 07:42 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 22 2009, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats sort of my point. The environment of EVE seems to be made up entirely of these types that voluntarily organize themselves in this rigid fashion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are plenty of non-conformists. You never hear about them however as they rarely accomplish anything news-worthy. You can easily find these people by checking any of the NPC run corporations (You are put in NPC corps automatically if you are not in a player corp, there is no kind of leadership in these corps and they generally just server as big chat-rooms). Something to consider: Even all the large alliances together probably only account for like 20% of the playerbase.
<!--quoteo(post=1701159:date=Feb 22 2009, 07:42 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 22 2009, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disappointing. Remember when I said that the problem I have with MMOs is that they're too much like work and not enough like a game? This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I don't want to have to analyze spreadsheets and formulas in my recreation time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this. The math itself isn't what EvE is about, it's just another layer of complexity. There are so many things to consider when laying out a ship in EvE you could write a textbook about it. This is not considered a bad thing, it is considered a selling point. If this doesn't really compute with you then EvE probably isn't for you.
It would seem so. Especially since, if I interpret what you said correctly, it is actually impossible to not be a member of some kind of corporation. Its almost as though its specifically designed not to appeal to me. Which is fine, I just wish more MMOs would be actually appealing.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Fact Established: SkulkBait doesn't like EVE.
Where is this story going? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'm not convinced I like it, to be honest. The activity in game is actually far too passive and maths heavy for me. But what keeps intriguing me is the social metagame, and the fact the universe is basically entirely player operated.
Whilst Blizzard was putting in NPC guards, Battlegrounds, Arenas etc, WAR was putting in 'Chickening', every MMO seems to feel the urge to pidgeonhole your play. CCP took a universe, denominated a small area as 'No good stuff, but you won't get ######slapped.... mostly' and made the rest 'Yeah, let them sort themselves out', and it's taken <i>years</i>, yet somehow, the players have.
I think that's rather cool, personally. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
That's the part that always fascinated me too Shocks :3
I loved Neocron for something similar: the infamous Nathan Proffit and his crackhead followers, the groups who tried to police the unprotected parts of the city and other things like that. They breathe life into what would otherwise be a stale and predictable game.
This is why I feel saddened when you hear things like Blizzard trying something new (like the undead assaulting stormwind) only for players to complain because it breaks their boring routines and impinges on their safe lil' worlds :/
Missle (firefox said I spelled that wrong...wtf? am I wrong?)
Missle blast radius = pretty effect radius.
There, problem solved. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />
I must say though, Citadel/torpedo explosions are ###### awesome. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" />
Btw, the math isn't hard at all. I'm still in Algebra math classes, in ###### college. I -SUCK- at math. And I can still figure this stuff out if not most of it.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
edited February 2009
Random Ramblings:
I took a break from EVE and the Director I left in charge of the corporation was also consumed by real life commitments and with a lack of leadership in the corporation it was decided for the fun of the players that they should leave the corp to form up with one of the corporations in our old alliance.
Nobody was happy about this, not the corpmembers not the director and most certainly not me. The corp didn't implode or explode, it didn't collapse it simply lost the glue that held it together from the top and so everyone scooted away, I fully suspect that when I am able to return to EVE and once again command the reigns of my corporation the many friends and members I have made will return happily and we can once again pursue our plans for galactic domination.
To Skulkbait:
Yes, you don't like EVE, that's great and it's also too bad because to those that do enjoy it, it is a great deal of fun and far more rewarding in the long term then the quick-fix MMOs of the past that I have played.
Yes you have to be a member of a corporation, fine yes, but the NPC starter corps with their many thousands of members don't have anything resembling a hierarchical structure or any fashion of organization or leadership. They are simply huge chatrooms and you all happen to have the same little icon of the starter racial corporation in your character profile. So what though? Being a guy in a starter npc corp is being a faceless nameless drone in an army of drones that have no affiliation with each other. The reason people tend to flock to corporations and alliances is for identity. Corporations have identity and through that corporation and within that corporation YOU have an identity. People get to know corporations and alliances.
Example:
Goonswarm alliance, those guys are all SA goons who like to fly numerous cheap ships with sometimes ridiculous fittings and are probably the most hilarious and/or offensive people you could find in EVE.
Band Of Brothers are (were) the most badass highly disciplined military powerhouse in the entire galaxy, filled with the creme de le creme of veterans and people who take the internet as serious business and are good at it. The self-described Villains of EVE.
Intersteller Starbase Syndicate (My first alliance <3 ) used to be the bastion of civility and commerce in the lawless seas of 0.0 space, they invested huge amounts of cash into building immovable and forever-standing Outposts in the farthest reaches of 0.0, establishing bastions of light in the richest and deepest sectors of the galaxy. They eventually succumbed to an assault from numerous alliances I can't recall the names of at the moment mostly due to the impartiality of ISS being questioned and eventually challenged. Unfortunately the neutral organization took sides and was destroyed because of it.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance: The closest thing to the ISS in this day and age, they are the only decent alliance in 0.0 these days. They have an outpost or two in Providence just galactic south of Amarrian space. The CVA alliance is made up of roleplayers partly and individuals who prefer to shoot only after being shot at and who invite neutral organizations to spend time within their space (I think they ask for payment if you set up a Player Owned Station nearby...) and as far as I know they also ICly state that their intent is to 'correct' the undesirable Minmatar rebellion and to bring glory to Amarrian peoples everywhere. (I may be mistaken on some of this)
---
These are all big alliances I've mentioned, but when you actually play the game and interact with your local corporations and alliances you get to know *their* reputation to a degree depending entirely on how much you interact with them. The corporations that *My* corp used to interact with most often after we moved to lowsec was a pirate corp who we came to know and respect as skilled tacticians, anytime we saw them around we reconsidered plans and we were in talks with our local friendlier corporations to discuss a hit on the pirate POS before my hiatus.
I should also mention when people join these or other corporations and alliances they do so because the identify closest with that organization. Yes it may reduce the individually of that person to outside observer but WITHIN that organization people really make names for themselves. There are plenty of individuals I knew from my previous two alliances... the corporate CEOs and directors and their retinue that make up most alliance's leadership structure, the best Fleet Admirals and Fleet Commanders, people you get to know and to trust and to like.
Individually and recognition are nearly impossible to achieve without working with others unless you do something incredible like Lofty and his Sneaky ###### Maneuver or Chribba with his EVEfiles of Awesomeness or any other of the personalities of EVE. The best way to socialize and achieve recognition comes from within organizations and among people who are first corpmates and then friends, they respect what you do and how you do it. The director I left in charge my corp I knew for perhaps a year and a half or more, he is an outstanding Fleet Commander, the man sounds like *ICE* under even the heaviest fire. I know he's concerned as hell about the situation when we're in the middle of a fight but the man can chill the voice comms and settle everyone's nerves and never wavers from providing us with sound tactical information during a fight. This is the man I trust not only to lead myself and my corporation into combat but also as a director.
That is his recognition from me, and from everyone else who flies under him. The same recognition is given to all my directors and even those without responsibilities within the corp, though it's easier to recognize Directors because they are more visible in what they do but I know all the guys in my corp and what they do best, and know them as the people they are too, friends and comrades for the most part.
While you don't get that kind of comradrie with everyone in your alliance, you get it with the people you fly with all the time and share good and bad times with.
You would not get anything like this without a corporation and that is my firm belief. It would be next to impossible to organize the herd of cats that is the nubcakes that fill the npc starter corp chats.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
---
tl;dr version:
EVE is still awesome.
**edit**
I kind of geeked out on that little speech there, oh well.
<!--quoteo(post=1701179:date=Feb 23 2009, 09:58 AM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Feb 23 2009, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the part that always fascinated me too Shocks :3
I loved Neocron for something similar: the infamous Nathan Proffit and his crackhead followers, the groups who tried to police the unprotected parts of the city and other things like that. They breathe life into what would otherwise be a stale and predictable game.
This is why I feel saddened when you hear things like Blizzard trying something new (like the undead assaulting stormwind) only for players to complain because it breaks their boring routines and impinges on their safe lil' worlds :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, that AMAZED me to no end. It was a multi-day event, and perhaps for the last day it was total mayhem. Before then, the zombifying disease took like five minutes to turn you into a zombie, which was AMPLE time to get yourself to one of the healer NPCs.
So as previously stated, the last day was complete mayhem. Getting to the auction house un-infected was difficult, getting OUT of the auction house un-infected even more so. And you were lucky if the auction house NPCs were willing to talk to you, rather than gnaw on your delicious bwains. The infection was difficult for players to cure, it took only a minute to zombify you (less with multiple applications!), and the healer NPC (which would one-shot zombies that came too close!) got swarmed and killed by a mob of zombified players and NPCs in the late afternoon. Certain people (including yours truly) dedicated themselves to infecting as many people as possible. Stealthing into the auction house, succumbing to the infection, then puking and exploding in the midst of twenty or more players = instant zombie horde. By early evening, Stormwind was like something straight out of a zombie movie. Empty streets, shambling undead here and there, a few desperate survivors trying to escape but mostly succumbing quickly to the onslaught.
I found it hilarious, and at most it made the capital cities inaccessible for one or two days. Before then it was a mild inconvenience at most.
But frankly, this was perhaps the worst game to do this in. The average WoW player is the biggest whiner and drama queen you've ever met. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING that they don't like 100% is "sux" and "fail" and will make them threaten to unsubscribe. And sadly, they never do. They just whine more, instead. I currently play WoW because of a small cadre of friends, and DESPITE the entire remaining bulk of players. If I quit (and I very much doubt I'll refresh my subscription when it runs out in a few days), it'll be because the players are simply intolerable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, the math isn't hard at all. I'm still in Algebra math classes, in ###### college. I -SUCK- at math. And I can still figure this stuff out if not most of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't about it being hard, its about it being too much like work. I don't mind hard gameplay. I made it a good chunk of the way through IWBTG (albeit on medium) before deciding that it made me too irritable in my every day life, I've also scored 100% in Jumper 2 several times, and I play spy in TF2 (if you don't think its hard, you probably aren't playing against a good team). I work in IT and spreadsheets and math just do not appeal to me as recreational activities. Neither does tedium, which is my big problem with grind, which in turn is my big problem with the vast majority of MMOs.
Reminds me of the day I logged into Ragnarok the day someone broke 1000 dead branches in Prontera.
For those not in the know, Prontera made most MMO cities look like ghost towns (yes, even ironforge is sparse compared to prontera) and dead branches? Well, when you break a dead branch it summons a random monster and by random I mean COMPLETELY. Dead branches can summon absolutely any monster available in the game; you might get an innocent poring or you might even get a gargantuan boss monster from one of the dungeons <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Imagine, if you will, appearing in the main capital to immediately find yourself surrounded by innumerable corpses; you couldn't see the streets for layers of dead. Wondering what the heck happened I found my answer as someone ran past screaming being chased by 3 towering monsters and a poring. My survival instincts kick in and I immediately use my roguish cloaking skills to vanish, slowly working my way from point to point aware that insects and demons can detect me while cloaked and that I had to uncloak to move. It was like something out of a horror movie as the streets were lined with every concievable creature you could find in the game. My heart just about leapt out my throat when I came across baphomet: a towering satyr that also happens to be the final boss in the game. Luckily he spotted some other tattered survivor and while it skinned him alive I made a mad panicking dash for the gates of the once great city.
I think that was the first and only time the OUTSIDE of prontera was a relief <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Sadly, the branch breaker was banned for their actions but it certainly made for one of the most memorable moments of my Ragnarok Life.
That really is a shame because thats the kind of thing that should be possible in a role playing game. He should have become a legendary character who's name is a forbidden word in the more civilized corners of the world, but worshiped by those who embrace chaos and destruction.
<!--quoteo(post=1701218:date=Feb 23 2009, 02:42 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 23 2009, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That really is a shame because thats the kind of thing that should be possible in a role playing game. He should have become a legendary character who's name is a forbidden word in the more civilized corners of the world, but worshiped by those who embrace chaos and destruction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus is the problem with ###### carebears.
Honestly, if the creators made that item, they knew what it did, did they not think of what ONE lil sadistic mother f-er can do to an entire great city?
Too bad when you play a MMO they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all.
If I made that game, I'd create a statue of that character and put him in the center of the city!
Btw, some of the best tracks on Eve Online: Jon Hallur - Retribution Jon Hallur & Reynir - Seven Clans Below the Asteroids
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701218:date=Feb 23 2009, 02:42 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 23 2009, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That really is a shame because thats the kind of thing that should be possible in a role playing game. He should have become a legendary character who's name is a forbidden word in the more civilized corners of the world, but worshiped by those who embrace chaos and destruction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wonder what his name was? He would have been up there with Fansy and Leeroy Jenkins, for all the minor ignominy that brings.
Old EQ player. He played on the no rules server (basically gank fest server, where the majority of the population was 'evil', and thus playing a 'good' character was nearly pointless).
He got a bard up to a level below the 'safe' (can't be PKed) limit and then proceed to grief the hell out of the evils. His main tactic was to use a speed boost spell and then train giants into anyone he could.
google will give you some info.
Oh, and what happened? The GMs stated that he was breaking the rules (on a no rule server) after all the PKs complained about him.
So what is this math that people keep talking about. The formula for calculating damage from missiles? Who cares. I don't know any of the formulas in EVE and I get by just fine. I use a nifty little program called Eve Fitting Tool that can calculate basic DPS, resistances, effective hitpoints and it even lets me equip modules to see if they will fit. No math is involved. I might try and figure out how many seconds or minutes I can survive from sustained gunfire but some simple multiplication isn't hard. I just don't see what the big deal is with people complaining about spreadsheets or heavy math that is NOT required in the slightest to enjoy the game.
I just figure that sort of thing should be intuitive after a while of play. I shouldn't need a program to calculate out how long I can withstand sustained gunfire, I should just be able to feel it. Its a fundamental difference between what I'm looking for in a game and what EVE culture seems to be like.
I think I should get this. Hopefully in a week or two when I get some money I'll resub up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1701226:date=Feb 23 2009, 01:19 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 23 2009, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just figure that sort of thing should be intuitive after a while of play. I shouldn't need a program to calculate out how long I can withstand sustained gunfire, I should just be able to feel it. Its a fundamental difference between what I'm looking for in a game and what EVE culture seems to be like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EFT (EVE fitting tool) is just that, a tool. I use it to test setups to make sure everything will fit and I use the dps calculator to compare with other ships. Its alot better then spending hundreds of millions on trial and error. Not sure what you mean about getting the feel for it. Can you explain that?
Basically what I mean is that if a having a special calculator handy really improves the gameplay that much, I probably don't want to play it. It would be more complexity then I'm looking for in a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1701231:date=Feb 23 2009, 05:53 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 23 2009, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically what I mean is that if a having a special calculator handy really improves the gameplay that much, I probably don't want to play it. It would be more complexity then I'm looking for in a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference with something like WoW wrt getting a feel for that is in WoW you and the enemies kinda scale up together, but EVE has much more varied scaling (depending on what skills you are training) and several jumps (frig->cruiser->battleship), and a lot of the pve content jumps around too.
I don't play other MMOs, so if you're trying to get an understanding of what I mean, you have to think of games like TF2. I'm a scout, I just spotted a heavy and he just spotted me. I can attack, or run. If I choose to attack I have to choose what tactic to use, which will be based on such factors as my distance to the heavy, which heavy I think he is, his weapon, my estimate of his health, my loaded ammunition, my health, the nearby terrain, etc. Theres clearly a lot of potential for math there, but I don't make spreadsheets of the data and try to analyze the outcome of the hypothetical scout-heavy encounter in my spare time.
I would guess that EVE probably <i>can</i> be played without resorting to that sort of behavior, but the fact that so many players do is indicative of the culture, a culture I really don't think I want to be a part of.
Comments
I'm not sure how to respond to this. I mean, every game is "ordered" as in you don't have complete freedom but as far as EvE goes there are no artificial limits imposed on the game. You can attack anyone anywhere anytime. You can lie/scam/swindle people out of money and CCP won't bat an eye. All "order" in the game is player enforced, usually inside of a corp/alliance structure. Whether or not you want to take the game that seriously is up to you.
EvE IS math heavy. So if you are the kind of person who might say something like "like, math is totally like so hard and stuff! Why are there letters in my numbers I don't understand!" then EvE might not be the game for you.
For example: A weapon type in the game are missiles. Every missile has a velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. When you fire a missile it will approach the enemy ship with x velocity, so your first problem is if your target is traveling faster then the missile you won't be able to do damage to them. Now assuming it is able to hit them you now have to take into the account the enemies ship size. Every ship has a signature radius which varies directly with the ship size, if the ships signature radius is less then the explosion radius you will only do partial of the missiles set damage base. If the enemies ships current velocity is higher then the explosion velocity a % of the missiles base damage will again be taken off. Now you obviously don't have to actually work out the math if you don't want to since all this really means is large missiles do less damage vs smaller faster ships, as intuition should have told you anyway. Understanding the "why" of EvE is integral to playing effectively or else you'll become just like every other noob who loses a $50mil isk Battlecruiser to 3 noobs flying frigates that are worth less then your ammunition. This isn't even scratching the surface either.
EvE IS math heavy. So if you are the kind of person who might say something like "like, math is totally like so hard and stuff! Why are there letters in my numbers I don't understand!" then EvE might not be the game for you.
For example: A weapon type in the game are missiles. Every missile has a velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. When you fire a missile it will approach the enemy ship with x velocity, so your first problem is if your target is traveling faster then the missile you won't be able to do damage to them. Now assuming it is able to hit them you now have to take into the account the enemies ship size. Every ship has a signature radius which varies directly with the ship size, if the ships signature radius is less then the explosion radius you will only do partial of the missiles set damage base. If the enemies ships current velocity is higher then the explosion velocity a % of the missiles base damage will again be taken off. Now you obviously don't have to actually work out the math if you don't want to since all this really means is large missiles do less damage vs smaller faster ships, as intuition should have told you anyway. Understanding the "why" of EvE is integral to playing effectively or else you'll become just like every other noob who loses a $50mil isk Battlecruiser to 3 noobs flying frigates that are worth less then your ammunition. This isn't even scratching the surface either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever, I put lasers on my frigates.
Thats sort of my point. The environment of EVE seems to be made up entirely of these types that voluntarily organize themselves in this rigid fashion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EvE IS math heavy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disappointing. Remember when I said that the problem I have with MMOs is that they're too much like work and not enough like a game? This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I don't want to have to analyze spreadsheets and formulas in my recreation time.
EvE IS math heavy. So if you are the kind of person who might say something like "like, math is totally like so hard and stuff! Why are there letters in my numbers I don't understand!" then EvE might not be the game for you.
For example: A weapon type in the game are missiles. Every missile has a velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. When you fire a missile it will approach the enemy ship with x velocity, so your first problem is if your target is traveling faster then the missile you won't be able to do damage to them. Now assuming it is able to hit them you now have to take into the account the enemies ship size. Every ship has a signature radius which varies directly with the ship size, if the ships signature radius is less then the explosion radius you will only do partial of the missiles set damage base. If the enemies ships current velocity is higher then the explosion velocity a % of the missiles base damage will again be taken off. Now you obviously don't have to actually work out the math if you don't want to since all this really means is large missiles do less damage vs smaller faster ships, as intuition should have told you anyway. Understanding the "why" of EvE is integral to playing effectively or else you'll become just like every other noob who loses a $50mil isk Battlecruiser to 3 noobs flying frigates that are worth less then your ammunition. This isn't even scratching the surface either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand what you just said there but it doesn't make a lot of sense :/
if your missle's explosion is so big it engulfs the target in flame completely it does less damage (or to be precise it does a lesser % of it's total damage value) than if it had just been a small crater in the target ship's side. I can understand the implications from a design point of view but from a user point of view that's considerably unintuitive.
Also, is explosion velocity a scalar comparison or is it a proper vector? (e.g. if they're flying right towards ground zero of the explosion do they still take reduced damage from their speed?)
In Eve, there's the additional issue that large missiles are slower and less maneuverable, so the "nuke" might miss the target completely and not work at all.
It's a fairly simple rule to memorise, I'd say: Ordnance should fit the size of the target. Too small and it does insufficient damage. Too large and it doesn't hit.
if your missle's explosion is so big it engulfs the target in flame completely it does less damage (or to be precise it does a lesser % of it's total damage value) than if it had just been a small crater in the target ship's side. I can understand the implications from a design point of view but from a user point of view that's considerably unintuitive.
Also, is explosion velocity a scalar comparison or is it a proper vector? (e.g. if they're flying right towards ground zero of the explosion do they still take reduced damage from their speed?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for the first part consider a firecracker. You could set it off on the palm of your hand and not take a great deal of pain since if you consider it's explosion as a sphere of energy then your hand only clips with about half of it. However if you were to close your hand around it, well you will be missing a few fingers. Not a perfect analogy but do you see where I'm coming from?
The explosion velocity is treated purely as a magnitude, which can be explained because
A: The servers don't have that much processing power
B: The explosions always 'appear' to occur directly beside/behind the ship so in all cases you are flying away from the explosion making their mathematical model accurate.
There are other errors in the use of physics in EvE though (Why do ships have a max velocity?), but they generally don't effect the gameplay too much.
To answer my own question though I suppose that once you're engulfed you can't really be damaged much more right? That said, I'd expect the scaling to be inversely logarythmic; the outer reaches of an explosion will likely be less lethal than the point of detonation.
That said, I honestly can't even begin to fathom how explosions work in space anyhoo :p
There's no air to ignite so flames would be fairly unlikely and I'm extremely curious to the point where I might go google it on what happens to concussive blastwaves in a vacuum :o
Shrapnel in space would also be a whoooole new ballgame :3
There are plenty of non-conformists. You never hear about them however as they rarely accomplish anything news-worthy. You can easily find these people by checking any of the NPC run corporations (You are put in NPC corps automatically if you are not in a player corp, there is no kind of leadership in these corps and they generally just server as big chat-rooms). Something to consider: Even all the large alliances together probably only account for like 20% of the playerbase.
<!--quoteo(post=1701159:date=Feb 22 2009, 07:42 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 22 2009, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disappointing. Remember when I said that the problem I have with MMOs is that they're too much like work and not enough like a game? This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I don't want to have to analyze spreadsheets and formulas in my recreation time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this. The math itself isn't what EvE is about, it's just another layer of complexity. There are so many things to consider when laying out a ship in EvE you could write a textbook about it. This is not considered a bad thing, it is considered a selling point. If this doesn't really compute with you then EvE probably isn't for you.
SkulkBait doesn't like EVE.
Where is this story going? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'm not convinced I like it, to be honest. The activity in game is actually far too passive and maths heavy for me. But what keeps intriguing me is the social metagame, and the fact the universe is basically entirely player operated.
Whilst Blizzard was putting in NPC guards, Battlegrounds, Arenas etc, WAR was putting in 'Chickening', every MMO seems to feel the urge to pidgeonhole your play. CCP took a universe, denominated a small area as 'No good stuff, but you won't get ######slapped.... mostly' and made the rest 'Yeah, let them sort themselves out', and it's taken <i>years</i>, yet somehow, the players have.
I think that's rather cool, personally. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I loved Neocron for something similar: the infamous Nathan Proffit and his crackhead followers, the groups who tried to police the unprotected parts of the city and other things like that. They breathe life into what would otherwise be a stale and predictable game.
This is why I feel saddened when you hear things like Blizzard trying something new (like the undead assaulting stormwind) only for players to complain because it breaks their boring routines and impinges on their safe lil' worlds :/
Missle (firefox said I spelled that wrong...wtf? am I wrong?)
Missle blast radius = pretty effect radius.
There, problem solved. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />
I must say though, Citadel/torpedo explosions are ###### awesome. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" />
Btw, the math isn't hard at all. I'm still in Algebra math classes, in ###### college. I -SUCK- at math. And I can still figure this stuff out if not most of it.
I took a break from EVE and the Director I left in charge of the corporation was also consumed by real life commitments and with a lack of leadership in the corporation it was decided for the fun of the players that they should leave the corp to form up with one of the corporations in our old alliance.
Nobody was happy about this, not the corpmembers not the director and most certainly not me. The corp didn't implode or explode, it didn't collapse it simply lost the glue that held it together from the top and so everyone scooted away, I fully suspect that when I am able to return to EVE and once again command the reigns of my corporation the many friends and members I have made will return happily and we can once again pursue our plans for galactic domination.
To Skulkbait:
Yes, you don't like EVE, that's great and it's also too bad because to those that do enjoy it, it is a great deal of fun and far more rewarding in the long term then the quick-fix MMOs of the past that I have played.
Yes you have to be a member of a corporation, fine yes, but the NPC starter corps with their many thousands of members don't have anything resembling a hierarchical structure or any fashion of organization or leadership. They are simply huge chatrooms and you all happen to have the same little icon of the starter racial corporation in your character profile. So what though? Being a guy in a starter npc corp is being a faceless nameless drone in an army of drones that have no affiliation with each other. The reason people tend to flock to corporations and alliances is for identity. Corporations have identity and through that corporation and within that corporation YOU have an identity. People get to know corporations and alliances.
Example:
Goonswarm alliance, those guys are all SA goons who like to fly numerous cheap ships with sometimes ridiculous fittings and are probably the most hilarious and/or offensive people you could find in EVE.
Band Of Brothers are (were) the most badass highly disciplined military powerhouse in the entire galaxy, filled with the creme de le creme of veterans and people who take the internet as serious business and are good at it. The self-described Villains of EVE.
Intersteller Starbase Syndicate (My first alliance <3 ) used to be the bastion of civility and commerce in the lawless seas of 0.0 space, they invested huge amounts of cash into building immovable and forever-standing Outposts in the farthest reaches of 0.0, establishing bastions of light in the richest and deepest sectors of the galaxy. They eventually succumbed to an assault from numerous alliances I can't recall the names of at the moment mostly due to the impartiality of ISS being questioned and eventually challenged. Unfortunately the neutral organization took sides and was destroyed because of it.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance: The closest thing to the ISS in this day and age, they are the only decent alliance in 0.0 these days. They have an outpost or two in Providence just galactic south of Amarrian space. The CVA alliance is made up of roleplayers partly and individuals who prefer to shoot only after being shot at and who invite neutral organizations to spend time within their space (I think they ask for payment if you set up a Player Owned Station nearby...) and as far as I know they also ICly state that their intent is to 'correct' the undesirable Minmatar rebellion and to bring glory to Amarrian peoples everywhere. (I may be mistaken on some of this)
---
These are all big alliances I've mentioned, but when you actually play the game and interact with your local corporations and alliances you get to know *their* reputation to a degree depending entirely on how much you interact with them. The corporations that *My* corp used to interact with most often after we moved to lowsec was a pirate corp who we came to know and respect as skilled tacticians, anytime we saw them around we reconsidered plans and we were in talks with our local friendlier corporations to discuss a hit on the pirate POS before my hiatus.
I should also mention when people join these or other corporations and alliances they do so because the identify closest with that organization. Yes it may reduce the individually of that person to outside observer but WITHIN that organization people really make names for themselves. There are plenty of individuals I knew from my previous two alliances... the corporate CEOs and directors and their retinue that make up most alliance's leadership structure, the best Fleet Admirals and Fleet Commanders, people you get to know and to trust and to like.
Individually and recognition are nearly impossible to achieve without working with others unless you do something incredible like Lofty and his Sneaky ###### Maneuver or Chribba with his EVEfiles of Awesomeness or any other of the personalities of EVE. The best way to socialize and achieve recognition comes from within organizations and among people who are first corpmates and then friends, they respect what you do and how you do it. The director I left in charge my corp I knew for perhaps a year and a half or more, he is an outstanding Fleet Commander, the man sounds like *ICE* under even the heaviest fire. I know he's concerned as hell about the situation when we're in the middle of a fight but the man can chill the voice comms and settle everyone's nerves and never wavers from providing us with sound tactical information during a fight. This is the man I trust not only to lead myself and my corporation into combat but also as a director.
That is his recognition from me, and from everyone else who flies under him. The same recognition is given to all my directors and even those without responsibilities within the corp, though it's easier to recognize Directors because they are more visible in what they do but I know all the guys in my corp and what they do best, and know them as the people they are too, friends and comrades for the most part.
While you don't get that kind of comradrie with everyone in your alliance, you get it with the people you fly with all the time and share good and bad times with.
You would not get anything like this without a corporation and that is my firm belief. It would be next to impossible to organize the herd of cats that is the nubcakes that fill the npc starter corp chats.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
---
tl;dr version:
EVE is still awesome.
**edit**
I kind of geeked out on that little speech there, oh well.
I loved Neocron for something similar: the infamous Nathan Proffit and his crackhead followers, the groups who tried to police the unprotected parts of the city and other things like that. They breathe life into what would otherwise be a stale and predictable game.
This is why I feel saddened when you hear things like Blizzard trying something new (like the undead assaulting stormwind) only for players to complain because it breaks their boring routines and impinges on their safe lil' worlds :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, that AMAZED me to no end. It was a multi-day event, and perhaps for the last day it was total mayhem. Before then, the zombifying disease took like five minutes to turn you into a zombie, which was AMPLE time to get yourself to one of the healer NPCs.
So as previously stated, the last day was complete mayhem. Getting to the auction house un-infected was difficult, getting OUT of the auction house un-infected even more so. And you were lucky if the auction house NPCs were willing to talk to you, rather than gnaw on your delicious bwains.
The infection was difficult for players to cure, it took only a minute to zombify you (less with multiple applications!), and the healer NPC (which would one-shot zombies that came too close!) got swarmed and killed by a mob of zombified players and NPCs in the late afternoon. Certain people (including yours truly) dedicated themselves to infecting as many people as possible. Stealthing into the auction house, succumbing to the infection, then puking and exploding in the midst of twenty or more players = instant zombie horde.
By early evening, Stormwind was like something straight out of a zombie movie. Empty streets, shambling undead here and there, a few desperate survivors trying to escape but mostly succumbing quickly to the onslaught.
I found it hilarious, and at most it made the capital cities inaccessible for one or two days. Before then it was a mild inconvenience at most.
But frankly, this was perhaps the worst game to do this in. The average WoW player is the biggest whiner and drama queen you've ever met. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING that they don't like 100% is "sux" and "fail" and will make them threaten to unsubscribe. And sadly, they never do. They just whine more, instead. I currently play WoW because of a small cadre of friends, and DESPITE the entire remaining bulk of players. If I quit (and I very much doubt I'll refresh my subscription when it runs out in a few days), it'll be because the players are simply intolerable.
It isn't about it being hard, its about it being too much like work. I don't mind hard gameplay. I made it a good chunk of the way through IWBTG (albeit on medium) before deciding that it made me too irritable in my every day life, I've also scored 100% in Jumper 2 several times, and I play spy in TF2 (if you don't think its hard, you probably aren't playing against a good team). I work in IT and spreadsheets and math just do not appeal to me as recreational activities. Neither does tedium, which is my big problem with grind, which in turn is my big problem with the vast majority of MMOs.
I'm sorry.
Reminds me of the day I logged into Ragnarok the day someone broke 1000 dead branches in Prontera.
For those not in the know, Prontera made most MMO cities look like ghost towns (yes, even ironforge is sparse compared to prontera) and dead branches? Well, when you break a dead branch it summons a random monster and by random I mean COMPLETELY. Dead branches can summon absolutely any monster available in the game; you might get an innocent poring or you might even get a gargantuan boss monster from one of the dungeons <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Imagine, if you will, appearing in the main capital to immediately find yourself surrounded by innumerable corpses; you couldn't see the streets for layers of dead. Wondering what the heck happened I found my answer as someone ran past screaming being chased by 3 towering monsters and a poring.
My survival instincts kick in and I immediately use my roguish cloaking skills to vanish, slowly working my way from point to point aware that insects and demons can detect me while cloaked and that I had to uncloak to move. It was like something out of a horror movie as the streets were lined with every concievable creature you could find in the game. My heart just about leapt out my throat when I came across baphomet: a towering satyr that also happens to be the final boss in the game. Luckily he spotted some other tattered survivor and while it skinned him alive I made a mad panicking dash for the gates of the once great city.
I think that was the first and only time the OUTSIDE of prontera was a relief <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Sadly, the branch breaker was banned for their actions but it certainly made for one of the most memorable moments of my Ragnarok Life.
Thus is the problem with ###### carebears.
Honestly, if the creators made that item, they knew what it did, did they not think of what ONE lil sadistic mother f-er can do to an entire great city?
Too bad when you play a MMO they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all.
If I made that game, I'd create a statue of that character and put him in the center of the city!
Btw, some of the best tracks on Eve Online:
Jon Hallur - Retribution
Jon Hallur & Reynir - Seven Clans
Below the Asteroids
I wonder what his name was? He would have been up there with Fansy and Leeroy Jenkins, for all the minor ignominy that brings.
Fansy the Bard.
Old EQ player. He played on the no rules server (basically gank fest server, where the majority of the population was 'evil', and thus playing a 'good' character was nearly pointless).
He got a bard up to a level below the 'safe' (can't be PKed) limit and then proceed to grief the hell out of the evils. His main tactic was to use a speed boost spell and then train giants into anyone he could.
google will give you some info.
Oh, and what happened?
The GMs stated that he was breaking the rules (on a no rule server) after all the PKs complained about him.
I think I should get this. Hopefully in a week or two when I get some money I'll resub up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
EFT (EVE fitting tool) is just that, a tool. I use it to test setups to make sure everything will fit and I use the dps calculator to compare with other ships. Its alot better then spending hundreds of millions on trial and error.
Not sure what you mean about getting the feel for it. Can you explain that?
The difference with something like WoW wrt getting a feel for that is in WoW you and the enemies kinda scale up together, but EVE has much more varied scaling (depending on what skills you are training) and several jumps (frig->cruiser->battleship), and a lot of the pve content jumps around too.
I would guess that EVE probably <i>can</i> be played without resorting to that sort of behavior, but the fact that so many players do is indicative of the culture, a culture I really don't think I want to be a part of.