NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
If you don't play other MMOs then it's extremely difficult for us to provide any kind of frame of reference.
Suffice it to say the only way to truly understand the game is to play it, which is why they made a free trial.
EVE is in every sense of the acronym an MMO, though it's niche appeal is the sandbox universe of it rather then the spoon-fed grind and boredom inherent in so many other MMOs of the past and current days.
In EVE knowledge is in every way power, from the knowledge of what range and speed your guns are effective at to the effectiveness of different types of ammunition on different types of shielded opponents to forecasting market conditions that may be or may not be and attempting to turn a few credits on that prediction.
Skulkbait I really don't even know if you've ever played an MMO before, so to dislike a specific game of a genre you've never even dabbled in based off of only what people *say* about the game is a bit presumptuous.
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Oblig Quote: "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it."
<!--quoteo(post=1701231:date=Feb 23 2009, 05:53 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 23 2009, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically what I mean is that if a having a special calculator handy really improves the gameplay that much, I probably don't want to play it. It would be more complexity then I'm looking for in a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need the tool, the tool is like something to help you figure out armor and weapon sets in some other MMO.
All it is is a time saver.
And it's like SCT or GRID for WoW. It's a tool that it's optional to use, but a lot of people use it due to it's handiness or niceness.
Either way, seems like I wont be ransoming you any time soon. ^.^ lol <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1701324:date=Feb 25 2009, 12:47 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 25 2009, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play other MMOs, so if you're trying to get an understanding of what I mean, you have to think of games like TF2. I'm a scout, I just spotted a heavy and he just spotted me. I can attack, or run. If I choose to attack I have to choose what tactic to use, which will be based on such factors as my distance to the heavy, which heavy I think he is, his weapon, my estimate of his health, my loaded ammunition, my health, the nearby terrain, etc. Theres clearly a lot of potential for math there, but I don't make spreadsheets of the data and try to analyze the outcome of the hypothetical scout-heavy encounter in my spare time.
I would guess that EVE probably <i>can</i> be played without resorting to that sort of behavior, but the fact that so many players do is indicative of the culture, a culture I really don't think I want to be a part of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in an MMO, a lot of those values you are using in your scout-heavy encounter would depend on level, gear, build, etc.
Paranoia2MB, I don't see how what you said is any different than what I said.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well in an MMO, a lot of those values you are using in your scout-heavy encounter would depend on level, gear, build, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which are vaguely analogous to player skill, chosen unlockables, class, etc. Of course, TF2 has the advantage of having a small enough data set that it can be kept entirely in the working memory of the average human being. My problem with MMOs isn't really that there are numbers and math, but that those numbers are so significant that they defy intuition and estimation enough that a calculator is a useful tool to have.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulkbait I really don't even know if you've ever played an MMO before, so to dislike a specific game of a genre you've never even dabbled in based off of only what people *say* about the game is a bit presumptuous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Woah, wait a minute. When did I give you the impression that I dislike EVE any more than I dislike other MMOs? If anything EVE is one of the better ones in my mind, if only because things like the recent BoB incident are considered "exiting" instead of "bannable", and the fact that it isn't set in Generic Medieval-Fantasy World. A few times during this thread I've been tempted to try it (which is more than can be said of any other MMO save puzzle pirates, which I'm positive I would be addicted to and so don't try to keep my wallet safe), but you've managed to talk me out of it.
Really? That wasn't my impression from what I'd read about it. My impression was that there was no leveling or stat system, and that pretty much everything that would normally rely on numbers and formula instead relied on your ability to actually play a game (the puzzles). Was I mistaken?
<!--quoteo(post=1701376:date=Feb 25 2009, 01:24 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 25 2009, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? That wasn't my impression from what I'd read about it. My impression was that there was no leveling or stat system, and that pretty much everything that would normally rely on numbers and formula instead relied on your ability to actually play a game (the puzzles). Was I mistaken?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are only so many puzzles, once you master them you end up just doing the same thing over and over again. It's fun for awhile but wears out.
Thats where the MMO part comes in, or so I figure. No matter how much you think you've "mastered" the puzzle, someone else has "mastered" it better, and even then you're both human, so you'll make mistakes. The human interaction component of the game, the defining quality of the MMO, should be the source of fun.
How is that different than "grind to level 60" or whatever "and then you get to the fun part!"? Because "level 60" is a fixed time investment of pure, forced, boredom. By definition, the point at which the puzzles become boring is when you've "mastered" them. They are fun until you reach "level 60" at which point they are just a backdrop for the <i>higher</i> game.
Or so I figure. I could be imagining a completely different obviously-better-by-my-standards-because-I-dreamed-it, game.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
<!--quoteo(post=1701358:date=Feb 25 2009, 12:00 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 25 2009, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Woah, wait a minute. When did I give you the impression that I dislike EVE any more than I dislike other MMOs? If anything EVE is one of the better ones in my mind, if only because things like the recent BoB incident are considered "exiting" instead of "bannable", and the fact that it isn't set in Generic Medieval-Fantasy World. A few times during this thread I've been tempted to try it (which is more than can be said of any other MMO save puzzle pirates, which I'm positive I would be addicted to and so don't try to keep my wallet safe), but you've managed to talk me out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough but my point about judging something before playing even the same genre is a bit unfair. If a person never played an RTS before for example and someone came to them and began explaining why Starcraft was an awesome game. I could imagine the first person asking such questions as "What do you mean you have to control a whole army instead of one guy? I really like the first person perspective and being able to use my skill and reflexes to kill the other guy!" and a dozen other perceived problems with the new genre may crop up, but that person will not really understand it unless they experience it, and this is a fundamental human trait we're talking about here.
As to the grind:
EVE has elements of grind sure, those primarily being running level 4 missions over and over again or in some instances excessive and repetitive mining. Though even mining can be enjoyable if you do something else while you mine. I know that sounds a little silly but the act itself is dull, which is why VOIP chat-fests are so much fun to do with a little bit of alcohol and your friends doing the same.
Running level 4 missions are about as exciting as.... hm, well I've never done any kind of missions or raids or anything from WoW but I would probably compare a level 4 mission to some kind of solo activity or quest in WoW where you get assigned from a list of appropriate level quests and are sent off into an instance or something.
While EVE has no game mechanism to assign you a mission based on your skill or instances of any kind, the fundamental principle would seem to be similar. (One must be careful though because being assigned a level 4 mission and doing it in a frigate will mean failure because you're ass will get blow'd up) <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Skulkbait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skulkbait)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats where the MMO part comes in, or so I figure. No matter how much you think you've "mastered" the puzzle, someone else has "mastered" it better, and even then you're both human, so you'll make mistakes. The human interaction component of the game, the defining quality of the MMO, should be the source of fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In EVE there are two important measurements of "Skill"
There is the raw skill point number of their character which represents the many skills they have trained over the months. This function is generally measured by the age of the character as that usually directly relates to more time to train skills though if people take breaks the number may be lower then assumed or if it's somebodies alt then their "Real Skill" may be much higher then their skill points.
The second measurement of talent and ability in EVE is pure knowledge and actual experience. The longer you play EVE or the better friends you have in EVE the more tricks and techniques you learn, the little things about how stargates and stations function when you undock, the rules of engagement and a hundred other little details and military tactics. This Real Skill trumps skill points in most cases.
Don't get me wrong, somebody with 10 million skillpoints has a lot more options then a player with 1 million skillpoints. While the 1m sp player may be able to fly a cruiser well the 10m skillpoint player can probably fly a cruiser well, a battleship well and may be trained in a tech 2 ship of some kind. Though for the most part the 10m and 1m sp player can fly a cruiser at about the same Skill Point level but the 10m player being around EVE much longer also knows more of the tricks and techniques.
However, if two or three 1m skillpoint players get into cheap 7m cruisers and if they know even the most rudimentary tactics for combat they should easily be able to take down the 10m sp player in a cruiser, bc or even battleship if the 1m sp players had prepared for that beforehand.
This is the fundamental reason why people form corporations in the game because Co-operation trumps Skill Points, though Real Skill is a much more challenging thing to deal with, if for example that 10m SP player where to recognize a trap or dangerous behaviour on his part and simply avoid it, the 1m sp players won't even get their chance to fight.
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My earlier examples of mining and level 4 missions are really the only "Grind" elements aside from Belt Ratting. (which is kind of like uh... well you go to asteroid belts and kill the npc pirates that spawn there, it's pretty simple but doing it in 0.0 space means danger by default). These three things are a base-line element of EVE in the sense that the rest of the game springs up from the flow of money and these three things are the best but not only way to make that cash. It's entirely possible for a player to be able to make money through piracy though it's much harder these days then before. A pirate would kill his prey and resell their surviving modules on the market, though it's rare to find anything good.
Exploration which I mentioned in a previous post is a very different way to acquire funds, what with you being able to safely for the most part hunt down these exploration sites in any kind of system and then attempt to defeat or salvage whatever lay inside. The real challenge in these activities is the potential conflict with players in the same space.
THAT is the best part of EVE and it flows through everything from even the baseline cash generation mechanisms to the ebb and flow of market orders to the shifting political boundaries in the deepest 0.0 space. Since EVE is designed from the ground up to cater to player versus player conflict it ensures the game never becomes boring unless you let it. The actual grinding of running missions or mining is not so bad if you do these things with friends in a corporation and talk either in chat or voip over the whole operation. Usually talking about your next PVP attempt for that matter.
There are also plenty of challenges for yourself as a person. For example forming a corporation and bringing glory to it within the game is very challenging activity and is fraught with player conflict because all the best resources and things in the game people will fight for and it takes a steady hand to run diplomacy in this game.
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As a last thought I should mention that this is the only game that I've ever played where I get an actual adrenaline rush from. I kid you not. When you take a ship of yours that you worked to buy (through brain of brawn) and used your knowledge to use fittings that you think will be the best for the situation and you and your friends pit your wits against those of the pirates in lowsec or the other fleets in 0.0 space, the rush that you get when combat starts when you *know* that your ship is dearly at risk and not only are you counting on yourself but you're counting on your allies to defeat or rout the enemy side, and that the enemy side is full of people likely just as smart as you who want just as badly to survive and to kill you. It gives us that delicious fight or flight response because rather then in the no-consequences WoW, in EVE if your ship turns to dust that represents real effort going pop.
The items I knew about (basically just modified the puzzles in subtle ways, my impression was that few were really considered outright "better" than others), and the "level" system was actually just a ranking system. If I'm mistaken, thats very sad as it means no-one has really tried to think outside the MMO box.
<!--quoteo(post=1701430:date=Feb 25 2009, 08:43 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 25 2009, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The items I knew about (basically just modified the puzzles in subtle ways, my impression was that few were really considered outright "better" than others), and the "level" system was actually just a ranking system. If I'm mistaken, thats very sad as it means no-one has really tried to think outside the MMO box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The battle part of puzzle pirates is non-repetitive, yes. However to move your ship you must do simpler puzzles over and over which can get boring. Skulkbait: just try EvE. Trial is completely free. This way you can atleast know what you are talking about, because I feel a bit like I'm describing sound to a deaf person. If you hate it, no big deal.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
edited February 2009
An interesting read on EVE online as well as a few other games including the recent Dawn of War, Supreme Commander as well as the aging Homeworld 2 and even Startopia:
<a href="http://www.rakrent.com/rtsc/rtsc_eve.htm" target="_blank">RTSC: EVE Online</a>
**edit** after reading the rest of the write-up it looks a weeee bit unpolished. So read at your own risk.
<!--quoteo(post=1701435:date=Feb 26 2009, 02:57 AM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 26 2009, 02:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The battle part of puzzle pirates is non-repetitive, yes. However to move your ship you must do simpler puzzles over and over which can get boring. Skulkbait: just try EvE. Trial is completely free. This way you can atleast know what you are talking about, because I feel a bit like I'm describing sound to a deaf person. If you hate it, no big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The primary joy of PP is playing with awesome people.
I don't think a good goal is to play for awesome stuff, but rather to have fun. Some of the PvP is also very exceptional. However, if you simply play for loot and without a good crew, it gets old fast and becomes a grind fest. There are only so many puzzles.
<!--quoteo(post=1701817:date=Mar 3 2009, 04:05 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Mar 3 2009, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The primary joy of PP is playing with awesome people.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This, this is where most MMOs fail so horribly. They're not designed to be games that can stand on their own feet, they're designed to be played with awesome people, failing to take into an extraordinarily simple truth that I hold self-evident: Most people are NOT awesome. For every awesome player, there are nine dregs. There's a HUGE surging, churning mass of vaguely humanoid feces, bile and pus, clogging, INFECTING the arteries of the various games. MMOs work off the flawed assumption that you can stick a shovel into a garbage dump and shovel out only gold nuggets.
I can't say I agree. I have yet to find the multiplayer game that is fun when played with the dregs of interwebs. They have pretty much always required a certain level of community to be worth anything. That doesn't excuse those MMOs that have such horrid gameplay though. The game mechanic is part of what decides the kind of player that will be attracted to a game, and therefor the community(ies) that will be built upon it. A friend of mine claims that he once found a CS community so awesome that it actually made CS fun*. The reason more communities weren't like that is probably because CS tended to attract the dregiest of the dregs.
Thats why I don't think I'd enjoy EVE, the culture of the community that the gameplay has spawned seems like a bad fit. I like the concept of the MMO, but haven't yet found one that has a community I'd fit in. Also, I haven't gotten over the idea of a subscription fee.
This is exactly what I mean, though: A game like TF2 doesn't require community. I play on a certain TF2 server fairly regularly, and I know some of the regulars pretty well - I know that some of them are fearsome snipers that must be either avoided or terminated with extreme prejudice. I know that some of them are awesome soldiers that I get killed by far more often than I kill them. I know which ones make good medic buddies and are therefore worth teaming up.
But that's not community. I don't know what sort of people they are (at least not much, considering I've been a regular on that server for a year). What sort of jokes they tell, what they do for a living. I don't socialise with them. I don't need to. And TF2 is so fast-paced that I don't have time to. TF2 is a multiplayer game, but I wouldn't call it a social game. And it can be played with dregs, because I don't need to be exposed to every sickening facet of their dregginess.
The people on your server(s) must be generally less chatty than on mine. I do know what kind of jokes they tell, and some of them where they live (state) and what they do for a living. I also know who to listen to as far as strategy is concerned. It is a social thing, thats what multiplayer means to me, not just a convenient source of sufficiently challenging bots.
Even without the "chit-chat", where the only talking going on is actually game related, I still find that much more enjoyable than a game where nobody ever says anything, like they don't actually give a damn about anything but their kill count.
Well, that's what I've always looked for in MMOs; one that acknowledges people as the real resource they are. There's nice people, selfish people, helpful people, sadistic people, clever people and stupid people. Humanity runs a whole spectrum of its own.
That's why I find griefers interesting... most games treat them as a 'bug', but ideally these people are the villians you need. Many will be fairly mindless and make good thieves, muggers and general nasties while the more inventive jerks could probably make fantastic agents of the dark, even more so if they have an ounce of charisma :3
People like Nathan Prophitt and his crackhead followers made Neocron what it was for me. At the end of the day they're just a bunch of loons who enjoy spreading misery but in Neocron they were the enemy you could focus on; they weren't mindless AI sitting in fields waiting to be killed... they were bandits and assassins waiting for you to look the wrong way or let your guard down. NPCs don't quite give you the same kind of suspense.
This is why I like PvP servers despite being someone who doesn't actually attack people; it's the threat of these griefers and the uncertainty they bring. Heck, about half or more of them aren't even bad people; if you have a way with words you can often disarm and befriend them if it takes your fancy and in some ways I find that as entertaining a challenge as poking a dragon's eye out with a sword :p
I think this is part of the draw of Eve for some people.
Yeah, so, I was really bored and figured I'd see about getting the EVE client and a trial account. Then I read the Minimum Requirements. You have to be ###### me. Why does this thing require twice as much ram as TF2? And so much GPU? Is there some gameplay reason that I'm going to need shader model 2.0? Cause if there is, I haven't noticed it in any of the media I've seen. Don't get me started on the 6GB install. I have enough problems playing TF2 on a barely supported system, ###### this game*.
*especially since the minimum screen resolution is higher than I run TF2 at, so I can only assume it will run like ass at best.
Two years ago, I ran this on a 2.53 Ghz non-multithreaded P4 with 1GB RAM and a Radeon 9600XT, and it ran okay and looked nice. Granted, I wasn't in any big battles and they may very well have upgraded the graphics since then, but unless your computer REALLY sucks, you shouldn't let the system requirements stop you. Let other, better reasons stop you instead. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<strike>Seriously, don't tell me you don't have a PIII 800 Mhz and 512 MB RAM or better.</strike> Apparently, they haven't updated the system requirements everywhere. Still, a 1 Ghz processor, 1 GB of RAM and a shader 2.0-capable graphics card is hardly much to ask for nowadays. It seems like you're simply looking for an excuse not to like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1701774:date=Mar 2 2009, 10:37 AM:name=briktal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(briktal @ Mar 2 2009, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Less than a month resubscribed and already back to training long skills. When does that skill queue stuff come out anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next expansion which I think is coming out March 10th. I cant wait.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, a 1 Ghz processor, 1 GB of RAM and a shader 2.0-capable graphics card is hardly much to ask for nowadays<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meet the requirements, but only just barely. Which means it will run, but much like TF2 it will run like ass. Probably worse since it forces a higher resolution and requires twice as much ram. And yes, it is a lot to ask considering that the game doesn't seem to have any really gpu/cpu intensive features that are actually necessary to the gameplay. Thats part of why PC gaming is in the state its in today: only people who can justify spending $1000 a year (or 2, or whatever the standard is nowadays) to upgrade their kit can afford to play. And why should they do that when an X-Box is much cheaper and will last them longer? I built a system for a friend recently, and I considered upgrading my kit. It would have only cost about $400, but I just couldn't justify it to make TF2 run prettier. Seriously, I can't understand the mentality that thinks thats ok.
And actually I feel the opposite. I keep trying to find reasons to give this game a chance and at every turn it has convinced me not to. So ###### it.
<!--quoteo(post=1701881:date=Mar 4 2009, 03:12 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Mar 4 2009, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats part of why PC gaming is in the state its in today: only people who can justify spending $1000 a year (or 2, or whatever the standard is nowadays) to upgrade their kit can afford to play. And why should they do that when an X-Box is much cheaper and will last them longer? I built a system for a friend recently, and I considered upgrading my kit. It would have only cost about $400, but I just couldn't justify it to make TF2 run prettier. Seriously, I can't understand the mentality that thinks thats ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I typically upgrade when I start having to run things at min requirements. Even then I don't go for top-of-the line, so I can make out at around 800 for a re-do.
But yeah, it's kinda annoying how so many games put so much work into shiny graphics and miss out on gameplay too. Then they expect us to buy premier systems to run it all. Gr....
EVE recently upgraded their graphics I believe. So, that's why the min requirements are a bit higher than most MMOs out there. Of course, this is me being a noob and not checking for myself and relying on memory.
Let's see... I bought my previous computer in mid-2003. Cost me about 900€, and I spent about 150€ upgrading it a little (more RAM, shader 2.0 graphics card). Then I bought this one about a year ago (1300€), haven't spent any money on it since. Haven't had to, it still runs everything like a dream. So that's about 2350€ over about five and a half years. That's roughly 425€ per year. And keep in mind, my recent acquisition of this computer skews the figures. This one will last at least another year without any upgrades (which brings us down to 360€ per year). Perhaps more. And before I bought this computer a year ago, the figure was 1050€ over four and a half years, or 233€ per year.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that 1k$ a year is at least twice as much as you need. For 425€ (533$) a year you'll get a brand-new, all-but-top-of-the-line computer every three years. And you don't need that. You can easily do with less.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
You have to of course consider that this latest graphical upgrade was completely free and updated the visuals from circa 2001 to a comfortable 07'-08'. For free. Just like every other expansion pack/content release they've done since day one. Don't get me started comparing SINGLE player games such as the reviled Spore or The Sims which pour out expansion packs and pricetags as if they were going out of style. Or WoW and just about every other MMO I could name which associates the word 'free' with "We're shutting down the servers, have fun for the next 2 weeks everybody!"
Honestly Skulkbait either try the game or don't try the game. Though I suspect that even if/when you do give the trial a spin you'll find *something* to piss and moan about and declare the attempt an utter failure on EVE's part to satisfy or entertain you and confirm your initial and continuing statements that EVE blows in every conceivable way from being a pay-to-play subscription to having system requirements my grandmother's computer could handle to whatever the disappointment of the week is.
Prove me wrong? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Comments
Suffice it to say the only way to truly understand the game is to play it, which is why they made a free trial.
EVE is in every sense of the acronym an MMO, though it's niche appeal is the sandbox universe of it rather then the spoon-fed grind and boredom inherent in so many other MMOs of the past and current days.
In EVE knowledge is in every way power, from the knowledge of what range and speed your guns are effective at to the effectiveness of different types of ammunition on different types of shielded opponents to forecasting market conditions that may be or may not be and attempting to turn a few credits on that prediction.
Skulkbait I really don't even know if you've ever played an MMO before, so to dislike a specific game of a genre you've never even dabbled in based off of only what people *say* about the game is a bit presumptuous.
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Oblig Quote: "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it."
You don't need the tool, the tool is like something to help you figure out armor and weapon sets in some other MMO.
All it is is a time saver.
And it's like SCT or GRID for WoW. It's a tool that it's optional to use, but a lot of people use it due to it's handiness or niceness.
Either way, seems like I wont be ransoming you any time soon. ^.^ lol <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" />
I would guess that EVE probably <i>can</i> be played without resorting to that sort of behavior, but the fact that so many players do is indicative of the culture, a culture I really don't think I want to be a part of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in an MMO, a lot of those values you are using in your scout-heavy encounter would depend on level, gear, build, etc.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well in an MMO, a lot of those values you are using in your scout-heavy encounter would depend on level, gear, build, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which are vaguely analogous to player skill, chosen unlockables, class, etc. Of course, TF2 has the advantage of having a small enough data set that it can be kept entirely in the working memory of the average human being. My problem with MMOs isn't really that there are numbers and math, but that those numbers are so significant that they defy intuition and estimation enough that a calculator is a useful tool to have.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulkbait I really don't even know if you've ever played an MMO before, so to dislike a specific game of a genre you've never even dabbled in based off of only what people *say* about the game is a bit presumptuous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah, wait a minute. When did I give you the impression that I dislike EVE any more than I dislike other MMOs? If anything EVE is one of the better ones in my mind, if only because things like the recent BoB incident are considered "exiting" instead of "bannable", and the fact that it isn't set in Generic Medieval-Fantasy World. A few times during this thread I've been tempted to try it (which is more than can be said of any other MMO save puzzle pirates, which I'm positive I would be addicted to and so don't try to keep my wallet safe), but you've managed to talk me out of it.
There are only so many puzzles, once you master them you end up just doing the same thing over and over again. It's fun for awhile but wears out.
How is that different than "grind to level 60" or whatever "and then you get to the fun part!"? Because "level 60" is a fixed time investment of pure, forced, boredom. By definition, the point at which the puzzles become boring is when you've "mastered" them. They are fun until you reach "level 60" at which point they are just a backdrop for the <i>higher</i> game.
Or so I figure. I could be imagining a completely different obviously-better-by-my-standards-because-I-dreamed-it, game.
Fair enough but my point about judging something before playing even the same genre is a bit unfair. If a person never played an RTS before for example and someone came to them and began explaining why Starcraft was an awesome game. I could imagine the first person asking such questions as "What do you mean you have to control a whole army instead of one guy? I really like the first person perspective and being able to use my skill and reflexes to kill the other guy!" and a dozen other perceived problems with the new genre may crop up, but that person will not really understand it unless they experience it, and this is a fundamental human trait we're talking about here.
As to the grind:
EVE has elements of grind sure, those primarily being running level 4 missions over and over again or in some instances excessive and repetitive mining. Though even mining can be enjoyable if you do something else while you mine. I know that sounds a little silly but the act itself is dull, which is why VOIP chat-fests are so much fun to do with a little bit of alcohol and your friends doing the same.
Running level 4 missions are about as exciting as.... hm, well I've never done any kind of missions or raids or anything from WoW but I would probably compare a level 4 mission to some kind of solo activity or quest in WoW where you get assigned from a list of appropriate level quests and are sent off into an instance or something.
While EVE has no game mechanism to assign you a mission based on your skill or instances of any kind, the fundamental principle would seem to be similar. (One must be careful though because being assigned a level 4 mission and doing it in a frigate will mean failure because you're ass will get blow'd up)
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Skulkbait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skulkbait)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats where the MMO part comes in, or so I figure. No matter how much you think you've "mastered" the puzzle, someone else has "mastered" it better, and even then you're both human, so you'll make mistakes. The human interaction component of the game, the defining quality of the MMO, should be the source of fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In EVE there are two important measurements of "Skill"
There is the raw skill point number of their character which represents the many skills they have trained over the months. This function is generally measured by the age of the character as that usually directly relates to more time to train skills though if people take breaks the number may be lower then assumed or if it's somebodies alt then their "Real Skill" may be much higher then their skill points.
The second measurement of talent and ability in EVE is pure knowledge and actual experience. The longer you play EVE or the better friends you have in EVE the more tricks and techniques you learn, the little things about how stargates and stations function when you undock, the rules of engagement and a hundred other little details and military tactics. This Real Skill trumps skill points in most cases.
Don't get me wrong, somebody with 10 million skillpoints has a lot more options then a player with 1 million skillpoints. While the 1m sp player may be able to fly a cruiser well the 10m skillpoint player can probably fly a cruiser well, a battleship well and may be trained in a tech 2 ship of some kind. Though for the most part the 10m and 1m sp player can fly a cruiser at about the same Skill Point level but the 10m player being around EVE much longer also knows more of the tricks and techniques.
However, if two or three 1m skillpoint players get into cheap 7m cruisers and if they know even the most rudimentary tactics for combat they should easily be able to take down the 10m sp player in a cruiser, bc or even battleship if the 1m sp players had prepared for that beforehand.
This is the fundamental reason why people form corporations in the game because Co-operation trumps Skill Points, though Real Skill is a much more challenging thing to deal with, if for example that 10m SP player where to recognize a trap or dangerous behaviour on his part and simply avoid it, the 1m sp players won't even get their chance to fight.
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My earlier examples of mining and level 4 missions are really the only "Grind" elements aside from Belt Ratting. (which is kind of like uh... well you go to asteroid belts and kill the npc pirates that spawn there, it's pretty simple but doing it in 0.0 space means danger by default). These three things are a base-line element of EVE in the sense that the rest of the game springs up from the flow of money and these three things are the best but not only way to make that cash. It's entirely possible for a player to be able to make money through piracy though it's much harder these days then before. A pirate would kill his prey and resell their surviving modules on the market, though it's rare to find anything good.
Exploration which I mentioned in a previous post is a very different way to acquire funds, what with you being able to safely for the most part hunt down these exploration sites in any kind of system and then attempt to defeat or salvage whatever lay inside. The real challenge in these activities is the potential conflict with players in the same space.
THAT is the best part of EVE and it flows through everything from even the baseline cash generation mechanisms to the ebb and flow of market orders to the shifting political boundaries in the deepest 0.0 space. Since EVE is designed from the ground up to cater to player versus player conflict it ensures the game never becomes boring unless you let it. The actual grinding of running missions or mining is not so bad if you do these things with friends in a corporation and talk either in chat or voip over the whole operation. Usually talking about your next PVP attempt for that matter.
There are also plenty of challenges for yourself as a person. For example forming a corporation and bringing glory to it within the game is very challenging activity and is fraught with player conflict because all the best resources and things in the game people will fight for and it takes a steady hand to run diplomacy in this game.
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As a last thought I should mention that this is the only game that I've ever played where I get an actual adrenaline rush from. I kid you not. When you take a ship of yours that you worked to buy (through brain of brawn) and used your knowledge to use fittings that you think will be the best for the situation and you and your friends pit your wits against those of the pirates in lowsec or the other fleets in 0.0 space, the rush that you get when combat starts when you *know* that your ship is dearly at risk and not only are you counting on yourself but you're counting on your allies to defeat or rout the enemy side, and that the enemy side is full of people likely just as smart as you who want just as badly to survive and to kill you. It gives us that delicious fight or flight response because rather then in the no-consequences WoW, in EVE if your ship turns to dust that represents real effort going pop.
It's apparently worth it to me and mine.
The battle part of puzzle pirates is non-repetitive, yes. However to move your ship you must do simpler puzzles over and over which can get boring.
Skulkbait: just try EvE. Trial is completely free. This way you can atleast know what you are talking about, because I feel a bit like I'm describing sound to a deaf person. If you hate it, no big deal.
<a href="http://www.rakrent.com/rtsc/rtsc_eve.htm" target="_blank">RTSC: EVE Online</a>
**edit** after reading the rest of the write-up it looks a weeee bit unpolished. So read at your own risk.
And yes, I'm in Greater Goon. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'm resubbing end of this week.
Skulkbait: just try EvE. Trial is completely free. This way you can atleast know what you are talking about, because I feel a bit like I'm describing sound to a deaf person. If you hate it, no big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The primary joy of PP is playing with awesome people.
I don't think a good goal is to play for awesome stuff, but rather to have fun. Some of the PvP is also very exceptional. However, if you simply play for loot and without a good crew, it gets old fast and becomes a grind fest. There are only so many puzzles.
This, this is where most MMOs fail so horribly. They're not designed to be games that can stand on their own feet, they're designed to be played with awesome people, failing to take into an extraordinarily simple truth that I hold self-evident: Most people are NOT awesome. For every awesome player, there are nine dregs. There's a HUGE surging, churning mass of vaguely humanoid feces, bile and pus, clogging, INFECTING the arteries of the various games. MMOs work off the flawed assumption that you can stick a shovel into a garbage dump and shovel out only gold nuggets.
Thats why I don't think I'd enjoy EVE, the culture of the community that the gameplay has spawned seems like a bad fit. I like the concept of the MMO, but haven't yet found one that has a community I'd fit in. Also, I haven't gotten over the idea of a subscription fee.
*I'm not entirely sure he wasn't pulling my leg.
But that's not community. I don't know what sort of people they are (at least not much, considering I've been a regular on that server for a year). What sort of jokes they tell, what they do for a living. I don't socialise with them. I don't need to. And TF2 is so fast-paced that I don't have time to. TF2 is a multiplayer game, but I wouldn't call it a social game. And it can be played with dregs, because I don't need to be exposed to every sickening facet of their dregginess.
Even without the "chit-chat", where the only talking going on is actually game related, I still find that much more enjoyable than a game where nobody ever says anything, like they don't actually give a damn about anything but their kill count.
That's why I find griefers interesting... most games treat them as a 'bug', but ideally these people are the villians you need. Many will be fairly mindless and make good thieves, muggers and general nasties while the more inventive jerks could probably make fantastic agents of the dark, even more so if they have an ounce of charisma :3
People like Nathan Prophitt and his crackhead followers made Neocron what it was for me. At the end of the day they're just a bunch of loons who enjoy spreading misery but in Neocron they were the enemy you could focus on; they weren't mindless AI sitting in fields waiting to be killed... they were bandits and assassins waiting for you to look the wrong way or let your guard down. NPCs don't quite give you the same kind of suspense.
This is why I like PvP servers despite being someone who doesn't actually attack people; it's the threat of these griefers and the uncertainty they bring. Heck, about half or more of them aren't even bad people; if you have a way with words you can often disarm and befriend them if it takes your fancy and in some ways I find that as entertaining a challenge as poking a dragon's eye out with a sword :p
I think this is part of the draw of Eve for some people.
*especially since the minimum screen resolution is higher than I run TF2 at, so I can only assume it will run like ass at best.
<strike>Seriously, don't tell me you don't have a PIII 800 Mhz and 512 MB RAM or better.</strike> Apparently, they haven't updated the system requirements everywhere. Still, a 1 Ghz processor, 1 GB of RAM and a shader 2.0-capable graphics card is hardly much to ask for nowadays. It seems like you're simply looking for an excuse not to like it.
Next expansion which I think is coming out March 10th. I cant wait.
I meet the requirements, but only just barely. Which means it will run, but much like TF2 it will run like ass. Probably worse since it forces a higher resolution and requires twice as much ram. And yes, it is a lot to ask considering that the game doesn't seem to have any really gpu/cpu intensive features that are actually necessary to the gameplay. Thats part of why PC gaming is in the state its in today: only people who can justify spending $1000 a year (or 2, or whatever the standard is nowadays) to upgrade their kit can afford to play. And why should they do that when an X-Box is much cheaper and will last them longer? I built a system for a friend recently, and I considered upgrading my kit. It would have only cost about $400, but I just couldn't justify it to make TF2 run prettier. Seriously, I can't understand the mentality that thinks thats ok.
And actually I feel the opposite. I keep trying to find reasons to give this game a chance and at every turn it has convinced me not to. So ###### it.
I typically upgrade when I start having to run things at min requirements. Even then I don't go for top-of-the line, so I can make out at around 800 for a re-do.
But yeah, it's kinda annoying how so many games put so much work into shiny graphics and miss out on gameplay too. Then they expect us to buy premier systems to run it all. Gr....
EVE recently upgraded their graphics I believe. So, that's why the min requirements are a bit higher than most MMOs out there. Of course, this is me being a noob and not checking for myself and relying on memory.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that 1k$ a year is at least twice as much as you need. For 425€ (533$) a year you'll get a brand-new, all-but-top-of-the-line computer every three years. And you don't need that. You can easily do with less.
Honestly Skulkbait either try the game or don't try the game. Though I suspect that even if/when you do give the trial a spin you'll find *something* to piss and moan about and declare the attempt an utter failure on EVE's part to satisfy or entertain you and confirm your initial and continuing statements that EVE blows in every conceivable way from being a pay-to-play subscription to having system requirements my grandmother's computer could handle to whatever the disappointment of the week is.
Prove me wrong? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />