I hope this dynamic occlusion means faster map compiling. although light was always the ######.
-kingmob<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 6 2009, 06:49 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 6 2009, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The <b>only</b> thing that comes to mind is <!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>WOOOOO!!!</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Does that mean the level design may start now? Also.. Who's in charge of making the maps this time around? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
(The reason I ask is because that's a pretty hefty optimization to go without for this long if its had to render everything in the past.)
I make it a point to check the blog every Friday to not only see Natural Selection 2 updates but also to read additional technical information such as this. I am not sure how full mirror like reflections will be in NS2 but is there is any sort of case to make sure that when they are in view it does not cull out the area behind you? I heard this could be tricky to program.
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:49 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 6 2009, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember when I tried mapping it took forever to compile a map, so this definitely sounds like great news for artists.
Nice work, looking forward to map for NS in source. Too bad this hasn't been made available as an option in Hammer by the Valve Corp, it could help solve a lot of detailing problems for us level designers and make it easier to grap brushes together. It's either all wireframe or no wireframe these days.
And oh my God, I cannot wait to use the logic_timer again, I friggin love that.
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 6 2009, 11:49 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 6 2009, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pure awesomeness <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
That quote should be the pod cast title, it says everything the mappers need to know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1702044:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:33 AM:name=KungFuSquirrel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuSquirrel @ Mar 6 2009, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the existing visibility tricks are still good practice for both technical and gameplay reasons, but it'll also open up some options that weren't available before. It's definitely going to make life a lot easier. I'm even more excited about some of the other features that become possible thanks to this one, and I think you guys will be too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me waves to KFS
How does this engine compare with those of games these days? Is a lack of compilation the norm? I've not touched a map editor since I meddled with Crysis'.
I must admit to vague worries about where this engine may fall short. I've absolute confidence in Max and the team, but I can't help but think that if what they've done in such a short time was possible, it would've been done before by others with hojillions of dollars to spend, ala Epic. I worry that there may be shortcomings that come about given the focus on a fast, iteration-based development.
<!--quoteo(post=1702105:date=Mar 6 2009, 09:38 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 6 2009, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Technology-wise outdoor and indoor maps are very different. With indoor maps you see occlusion culling where large sections of the map are simply not rendered for individual players. For outdoor maps you either have to limit field of view artificially(old school thick fog) and/or render things with much less detail at a distance(the current preferred option). It's not that you can't do both outdoor and indoor maps, and Max mentions that this occlusion tech will work well with outdoor maps, it's that coding to render outdoor maps efficiently is non-trivial. This is especially true when you have interesting features like dynamic lighting and procedural textures/objects(the DI). NS2 is going to be a primarily indoor game. This isn't to say that it won't allow their engine to do outdoor levels, because it seems like they want the engine their building to do both well, but that's just what NS2's play style is and the engine will likely be optimised for. Unfortunately it's not as easy as slapping a sky texture on a big room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have an engine that : -Draws things around -Is able to process obects/polygons depending on condition (occlusion).
The only real problem becomes the time (CPU/GPU utilisation). And so, how your objects/entities (call it what you vant) are defined (what's in it) in order to be processed faster.
The only additional code you need for rendering outdoor style design IS how you manage to handle all the things that are in the area the player look at. -Using LOD object (Level Of Detail; several meshs for the differents distances) and different texture details. -Occlusion. A Hill is like a wall so you don't see what's behind (O rly; -yes! turn of the wallhack?). Or a building as another example.
Dynamic object are far from being difficult with the power that lies in the hardware. I mean, even in a golf game you have "rays of god" and the dynamic s***t that comes with it. Oh come on!
FarCry was developped with LUA like the NS2 engine (as they say) but a modified LUA. I was running it with an ATI9800pro. I've played it with a 3870X2 recently. And believe me, the problem is clearly NOT the hardware; outdoor can be handled. Even with more dynamic stuff in it. I can even put some more 'occluders' (here and there) to enhance the original Farcry maps and push up the FPS rate. I did it as a self-study exercice.
I mean FarCry is an old game now. And the average nowday hardware is twice (to be conservative) faster than what we had at the time. Higher resolution, more polygons and MORE stuff on textures.
My point isn't to make outdoors maps for NS2. It's just having some of the little tricks that comes from outdoor dedicated game like Farcry/Unreal that would (one way or another) improve the game. Plus, when you make an engine that is capable of outdoor design you ARE confronted to that.
So NO i don't follow you with the dynamic stuff and everything. Outdoor isn't more difficult. It's just different. You have to think a little bit about what you are doing (and not filling the map with crap). Outdoor stuff is not flat by definition... You can make an outdoor map that will be faster to render than a complex indoor building.
About the trick and stuff: Having a ground grid for example would allow to make more stuff that fits the kharra side. i mean : Marins = straight lines, kharras = "derelict". It would help having a game that is not so 'geometrical' like HL1 and HL².
My question to the dev (well max as it is about the engine) stays. pls 'o pls.
I'm really surprised you can do this. What performance hit in the normal cases (indoor hallways primarily) are you taking over precomputing leafs and lightmaps with vis and rad?
Yeah it would have been nice if this made even more high end brushes available to us, finally being able to add tons of equipment to whatever "lab" we create, and not to mention the, my favorite, texture displacement tool.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
oh thanks for this link, i was reading about occlusion culling few days ago going deeper in 3d graphics programming, i will check that algorythm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
i appreciate more news updates like this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
What worries me in your mention "we've chosen to use a hardware assisted occlusion culling method that doesn't require precomputation" is that you are probably talking about the hardware of the player at gameplay. I need a confirmation of this. Because if it is on the player side, then it implies that the player has to have this and we all know some players are not using recent PC hardware configurations (like me). So how does that leave us ?
My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago. I still use an AGP ATI 9600XT and have no slots for PCI express cards. I have no money to buy a new rig because if I just want to get a PCI express card, it results in me having to change the motherboard, memory, CPU, HD so that resolves into buying a brand new PC. There aren't that many AGP cards out there (Nvidia's are less powerfull then my card and ATI's seam to have a lot of people having problems with them). So I stopped buying games as of 2 years ago. It was useless for me to buy new games that I cannot even play. That is why I love NS. It is not demanding on my rig and that is the only game I can play at 1280x1024.
bowser, if you can play NS at max resolution, you can probably play BF2 / Source at mid or low resolution. Meaning you should be in the lower bracket of what NS2 will support.
<!--quoteo(post=1702222:date=Mar 7 2009, 03:20 PM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Mar 7 2009, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can make an outdoor map that will be faster to render than a complex indoor building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> God point the thing is how do you make the map !
<b> How about Vista and 4 core CPU support?</b>
Sorry bu i have to ask : When the mapers release (as i understand some striped ns2 version) will come out ?
<!--quoteo(post=1702298:date=Mar 8 2009, 08:34 PM:name=Browser_ICE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Browser_ICE @ Mar 8 2009, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What worries me in your mention "we've chosen to use a hardware assisted occlusion culling method that doesn't require precomputation" is that you are probably talking about the hardware of the player at gameplay. I need a confirmation of this. Because if it is on the player side, then it implies that the player has to have this and we all know some players are not using recent PC hardware configurations (like me). So how does that leave us ?
My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago. I still use an AGP ATI 9600XT and have no slots for PCI express cards. I have no money to buy a new rig because if I just want to get a PCI express card, it results in me having to change the motherboard, memory, CPU, HD so that resolves into buying a brand new PC. There aren't that many AGP cards out there (Nvidia's are less powerfull then my card and ATI's seam to have a lot of people having problems with them). So I stopped buying games as of 2 years ago. It was useless for me to buy new games that I cannot even play. That is why I love NS. It is not demanding on my rig and that is the only game I can play at 1280x1024.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I also picked up on this (just beacuse i'm picky, not because of old hardware). I believe they do mean the players hardware will be doing the occlusion tests. Quoting from the NS2 FAQ the minimum hardware specification is: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM, a DirectX 9 level graphics card, Windows 2000/XP/ME/98, mouse, keyboard and of course, an Internet connection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This feature could well be part of the DirectX9 (or earlier) specification.
I wonder if DirectX compliance in graphics cards is like CSS compliance in web browsers...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense mate, but you wouldn't expect to see games like God Of War III, Halo3, Killzone2, Ridd!ck: Dark Athena, etc... on the PS2 or Xbox, you want to play them you HAVE to buy a 360/PS3 (maybe even both).
You need to consider, aswell, 6 years is about ONE QUARTER of the life-time of video-gaming.
I know the actual systems are incompatible and with a PC there's ways to just make it backwards compatible by reducing settings... but you also have to consider it'll weaken the top-end of the game if they are going back 6 years to support some people. I know they want to make NS2 playable to the masses... but equally... this is their career beginning, if i was max I'd want to make it the best it could be even if it's only playable on machines 2 years old at a snail's crawl.
What I'm saying is: If you really want to play the game, you will find the time / money to upgrade to at least 3-year-old standards... hell, you must have some friends who have upgraded and are trying to shift their olds, and well you've had six years to save up some pennies. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if DirectX compliance in graphics cards is like CSS compliance in web browsers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you mean in the way that they have to support the 'brief' but each browser(gfx card) may interpret the brief slightly differently in areas... yes.
<!--quoteo(post=1702298:date=Mar 8 2009, 12:34 PM:name=Browser_ICE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Browser_ICE @ Mar 8 2009, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What worries me in your mention "we've chosen to use a hardware assisted occlusion culling method that doesn't require precomputation" is that you are probably talking about the hardware of the player at gameplay. I need a confirmation of this. Because if it is on the player side, then it implies that the player has to have this and we all know some players are not using recent PC hardware configurations (like me). So how does that leave us ?
My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago. I still use an AGP ATI 9600XT and have no slots for PCI express cards. I have no money to buy a new rig because if I just want to get a PCI express card, it results in me having to change the motherboard, memory, CPU, HD so that resolves into buying a brand new PC. There aren't that many AGP cards out there (Nvidia's are less powerfull then my card and ATI's seam to have a lot of people having problems with them). So I stopped buying games as of 2 years ago. It was useless for me to buy new games that I cannot even play. That is why I love NS. It is not demanding on my rig and that is the only game I can play at 1280x1024.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The ATI 9600 XT has the necessary features to support hardware occlusion culling (as does any DirectX 9 card). We chose DirectX 9 as our minimum spec, since it came out over 7 years ago and gives us access to "new" features that let us do nice things like hardware occlusion culling. I don't think this is a very bold move though -- it was the minimum spec for Battlefield 2 which came out almost 4 years ago. It's also the minimum spec for Starcraft 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1702362:date=Mar 9 2009, 05:40 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Mar 9 2009, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ATI 9600 XT has the necessary features to support hardware occlusion culling (as does any DirectX 9 card). We chose DirectX 9 as our minimum spec, since it came out over 7 years ago and gives us access to "new" features that let us do nice things like hardware occlusion culling. I don't think this is a very bold move though -- it was the minimum spec for Battlefield 2 which came out almost 4 years ago. It's also the minimum spec for Starcraft 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds pretty reasonable and should not pose too much of a problem for the community. It also sounds more like a Doom3 engine solution (with out the portals) as far as the no compiling benefit. With that said I will be interested in performance tools that allow mappers the ability to "peak" into what the hardware is doing when it is occluding. Why? Because there will always be geometry/map layouts that are better at performance than others. Proper level design (as KungFuS posted) will always help but to really squeeze out frame rate along with visuals a mapper needs to be able to know what specifically is good or bad. These tools that will allow mappers to discover unique ways to push the engine that the developer never thought possible.
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1702103:date=Mar 6 2009, 09:20 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KuBaN @ Mar 6 2009, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty sure they're referring to the difficulty of engines to render outdoor environments, specifically large, primarily uncovered expanses of land, as in such a situation there are very few walls or separations of the space, and therefor very few visleafs, which means the engine is rendering the entire area. No easy feat for engines specifically optimized for indoor scenes, or older engines in general.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Games like Tribes 2 (who played this? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) can handle outdoor environments easily (infinite terrain), of course it would have had its own drawbacks in other areas - but its doable.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1702375:date=Mar 9 2009, 05:52 PM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Plasma @ Mar 9 2009, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games like Tribes 2 (who played this? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) can handle outdoor environments easily (infinite terrain), of course it would have had its own drawbacks in other areas - but its doable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes Tribes 2 is optimised for outdoor levels. Optimising for outdoor levels is different from optimising for indoor levels. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it's a lot of extra effort for a game that is primarily indoor.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2009
Oh wow! No compiling of maps! Just Wow <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Tweak the light here a little bit, move this door somewhat, add this doodad and use some env_light here... domdidom...
BOOM! map area finished. Just wow (I said that already didn't I <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
Can't wait for NS2TR now! Must toy around with dynamic lighting/mapping etc... dynamic generation of mapvis is just pure awesomesauce!
<!--quoteo(post=1702379:date=Mar 9 2009, 06:01 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skyforger2 @ Mar 9 2009, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to see outdoor map something like aliens home planet<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not their home planet! Did you even watch the movie?!
<!--quoteo(post=1702313:date=Mar 8 2009, 11:54 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skyforger2 @ Mar 8 2009, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God point the thing is how do you make the map ! <b> How about Vista and 4 core CPU support?</b>
Sorry bu i have to ask : When the mapers release (as i understand some striped ns2 version) will come out ?
Can't wait to map ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can make a detailed tutorial on how to use the displacement tool for mountains and caves if you want, in case there aren't any. It might be difficult to master at first, but once you get used to it it's real easy. I've made series of outdoor maps, mountains, caves, slopes, etc, with the newest hammer. Another nice thing with the newest hammer is, now you can use simple entities as pipes (for skulks) instead of high detailed brushes, to make it look better. Using models instead of brushes is the future <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> The way you do it, is to make the entity illusionary, then add invisible brushes around the edges. This could work on the HL engine, problem is, it doesn't take a lot of entities for the engine to wear out, unlike the source engine.
Ps. I appologize if I am handing out information you already knew.
Can't wait to map for ns2 neither by the way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1702382:date=Mar 10 2009, 01:00 AM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skyforger2 @ Mar 10 2009, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmmm where could i practice on NS2 maping ??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter-Strike! Pre-compile it there, then later add NS2 entities, and even NS2 textures if you want that.
<!--quoteo(post=1702376:date=Mar 9 2009, 05:04 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 9 2009, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes Tribes 2 is optimised for outdoor levels. Optimising for outdoor levels is different from optimising for indoor levels. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it's a lot of extra effort for a game that is primarily indoor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An engine that needs extra work for outdoor designs <u>is not finished</u>. And this is where the programmer realize that the indoor managment isn't so good and need improvment.
Once you can handle indoor (supposing your doing to the lower levels Dx9/OpenGL). -Object/mesh management (rotation, translation, bending, whatever etc.). -Occlusion management (hadware helps a lot), with automated alogrythms or using mapper help (specific object designed for that purpose). (i'm just talking about what player see, not collision detection et game managment etc.)
You <b>CAN </b>handle Outdoor things.
Then comes method (for mapping also); i mean what are the 'tricks' the engine use to render more efficiently the landscape. These optimizations will benefit <b>BOTH </b>Indoor and Outdoor. Because this is the same kind of trick for both. That's it!
The only real difference would be complex lightning. But the NS2 engine don't have to go that far (at first). I mean, when you are shooting at a skulk you don't care for the light level covering 1 pixel located on the cieling that should be augmented by 1%... if calculus are right.
The main trick is to avoid the managment of everything the player don't see, and lowering resolution (mesh, texture, sprite replacement) for the things that are far away, and far far away.
Short story: If you create an engine that is capable of these (for some: not) basic (<- 'somehow' for others ) things; You can handle Outdoor.
<!--quoteo(post=1684834:date=Jul 30 2008, 09:38 PM:name=eeme)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eeme @ Jul 30 2008, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With your new engine and editors do mappers have to compile the map before it can be played or does the engine use the same map files as the editor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 7 2009, 01:49 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 7 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since your viewer is a simple viewport into the world, I take it that it has the same dynamic culling, and lighting. Since that is the case, would it be possible to have the camera be bound to player like entity? That way you can walk and look at what you are building as you go.
Comments
I hope this dynamic occlusion means faster map compiling.
although light was always the ######.
-kingmob<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The <b>only</b> thing that comes to mind is <!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>WOOOOO!!!</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(The reason I ask is because that's a pretty hefty optimization to go without for this long if its had to render everything in the past.)
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:49 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 6 2009, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember when I tried mapping it took forever to compile a map, so this definitely sounds like great news for artists.
And oh my God, I cannot wait to use the logic_timer again, I friggin love that.
Pure awesomeness <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
That quote should be the pod cast title, it says everything the mappers need to know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
/me waves to KFS
How does this engine compare with those of games these days? Is a lack of compilation the norm? I've not touched a map editor since I meddled with Crysis'.
I must admit to vague worries about where this engine may fall short. I've absolute confidence in Max and the team, but I can't help but think that if what they've done in such a short time was possible, it would've been done before by others with hojillions of dollars to spend, ala Epic. I worry that there may be shortcomings that come about given the focus on a fast, iteration-based development.
--Scythe--
If you have an engine that :
-Draws things around
-Is able to process obects/polygons depending on condition (occlusion).
The only real problem becomes the time (CPU/GPU utilisation). And so, how your objects/entities (call it what you vant) are defined (what's in it) in order to be processed faster.
The only additional code you need for rendering outdoor style design IS how you manage to handle all the things that are in the area the player look at.
-Using LOD object (Level Of Detail; several meshs for the differents distances) and different texture details.
-Occlusion. A Hill is like a wall so you don't see what's behind (O rly; -yes! turn of the wallhack?). Or a building as another example.
Dynamic object are far from being difficult with the power that lies in the hardware. I mean, even in a golf game you have "rays of god" and the dynamic s***t that comes with it. Oh come on!
FarCry was developped with LUA like the NS2 engine (as they say) but a modified LUA. I was running it with an ATI9800pro. I've played it with a 3870X2 recently. And believe me, the problem is clearly NOT the hardware; outdoor can be handled. Even with more dynamic stuff in it. I can even put some more 'occluders' (here and there) to enhance the original Farcry maps and push up the FPS rate. I did it as a self-study exercice.
I mean FarCry is an old game now. And the average nowday hardware is twice (to be conservative) faster than what we had at the time. Higher resolution, more polygons and MORE stuff on textures.
My point isn't to make outdoors maps for NS2. It's just having some of the little tricks that comes from outdoor dedicated game like Farcry/Unreal that would (one way or another) improve the game. Plus, when you make an engine that is capable of outdoor design you ARE confronted to that.
So NO i don't follow you with the dynamic stuff and everything. Outdoor isn't more difficult. It's just different. You have to think a little bit about what you are doing (and not filling the map with crap). Outdoor stuff is not flat by definition... You can make an outdoor map that will be faster to render than a complex indoor building.
About the trick and stuff: Having a ground grid for example would allow to make more stuff that fits the kharra side. i mean : Marins = straight lines, kharras = "derelict". It would help having a game that is not so 'geometrical' like HL1 and HL².
My question to the dev (well max as it is about the engine) stays. pls 'o pls.
i appreciate more news updates like this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago. I still use an AGP ATI 9600XT and have no slots for PCI express cards. I have no money to buy a new rig because if I just want to get a PCI express card, it results in me having to change the motherboard, memory, CPU, HD so that resolves into buying a brand new PC. There aren't that many AGP cards out there (Nvidia's are less powerfull then my card and ATI's seam to have a lot of people having problems with them). So I stopped buying games as of 2 years ago. It was useless for me to buy new games that I cannot even play. That is why I love NS. It is not demanding on my rig and that is the only game I can play at 1280x1024.
God point the thing is how do you make the map !
<b> How about Vista and 4 core CPU support?</b>
Sorry bu i have to ask : When the mapers release (as i understand some striped ns2 version) will come out ?
Can't wait to map ns2.
My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago. I still use an AGP ATI 9600XT and have no slots for PCI express cards. I have no money to buy a new rig because if I just want to get a PCI express card, it results in me having to change the motherboard, memory, CPU, HD so that resolves into buying a brand new PC. There aren't that many AGP cards out there (Nvidia's are less powerfull then my card and ATI's seam to have a lot of people having problems with them). So I stopped buying games as of 2 years ago. It was useless for me to buy new games that I cannot even play. That is why I love NS. It is not demanding on my rig and that is the only game I can play at 1280x1024.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also picked up on this (just beacuse i'm picky, not because of old hardware). I believe they do mean the players hardware will be doing the occlusion tests. Quoting from the NS2 FAQ the minimum hardware specification is:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM, a DirectX 9 level graphics card, Windows 2000/XP/ME/98, mouse, keyboard and of course, an Internet connection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This feature could well be part of the DirectX9 (or earlier) specification.
I wonder if DirectX compliance in graphics cards is like CSS compliance in web browsers...
No offense mate, but you wouldn't expect to see games like God Of War III, Halo3, Killzone2, Ridd!ck: Dark Athena, etc... on the PS2 or Xbox, you want to play them you HAVE to buy a 360/PS3 (maybe even both).
You need to consider, aswell, 6 years is about ONE QUARTER of the life-time of video-gaming.
I know the actual systems are incompatible and with a PC there's ways to just make it backwards compatible by reducing settings... but you also have to consider it'll weaken the top-end of the game if they are going back 6 years to support some people. I know they want to make NS2 playable to the masses... but equally... this is their career beginning, if i was max I'd want to make it the best it could be even if it's only playable on machines 2 years old at a snail's crawl.
What I'm saying is: If you really want to play the game, you will find the time / money to upgrade to at least 3-year-old standards... hell, you must have some friends who have upgraded and are trying to shift their olds, and well you've had six years to save up some pennies. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if DirectX compliance in graphics cards is like CSS compliance in web browsers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you mean in the way that they have to support the 'brief' but each browser(gfx card) may interpret the brief slightly differently in areas... yes.
My hardware is close to 6 years old and my video card isn't supported as of close to 3 years ago. I still use an AGP ATI 9600XT and have no slots for PCI express cards. I have no money to buy a new rig because if I just want to get a PCI express card, it results in me having to change the motherboard, memory, CPU, HD so that resolves into buying a brand new PC. There aren't that many AGP cards out there (Nvidia's are less powerfull then my card and ATI's seam to have a lot of people having problems with them). So I stopped buying games as of 2 years ago. It was useless for me to buy new games that I cannot even play. That is why I love NS. It is not demanding on my rig and that is the only game I can play at 1280x1024.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The ATI 9600 XT has the necessary features to support hardware occlusion culling (as does any DirectX 9 card). We chose DirectX 9 as our minimum spec, since it came out over 7 years ago and gives us access to "new" features that let us do nice things like hardware occlusion culling. I don't think this is a very bold move though -- it was the minimum spec for Battlefield 2 which came out almost 4 years ago. It's also the minimum spec for Starcraft 2.
This sounds pretty reasonable and should not pose too much of a problem for the community. It also sounds more like a Doom3 engine solution (with out the portals) as far as the no compiling benefit. With that said I will be interested in performance tools that allow mappers the ability to "peak" into what the hardware is doing when it is occluding. Why? Because there will always be geometry/map layouts that are better at performance than others. Proper level design (as KungFuS posted) will always help but to really squeeze out frame rate along with visuals a mapper needs to be able to know what specifically is good or bad. These tools that will allow mappers to discover unique ways to push the engine that the developer never thought possible.
~D
Games like Tribes 2 (who played this? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) can handle outdoor environments easily (infinite terrain), of course it would have had its own drawbacks in other areas - but its doable.
Yes Tribes 2 is optimised for outdoor levels. Optimising for outdoor levels is different from optimising for indoor levels. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it's a lot of extra effort for a game that is primarily indoor.
Tweak the light here a little bit, move this door somewhat, add this doodad and use some env_light here... domdidom...
BOOM! map area finished. Just wow (I said that already didn't I <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
Can't wait for NS2TR now! Must toy around with dynamic lighting/mapping etc... dynamic generation of mapvis is just pure awesomesauce!
That's not their home planet! Did you even watch the movie?!
<b> How about Vista and 4 core CPU support?</b>
Sorry bu i have to ask : When the mapers release (as i understand some striped ns2 version) will come out ?
Can't wait to map ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can make a detailed tutorial on how to use the displacement tool for mountains and caves if you want, in case there aren't any. It might be difficult to master at first, but once you get used to it it's real easy. I've made series of outdoor maps, mountains, caves, slopes, etc, with the newest hammer. Another nice thing with the newest hammer is, now you can use simple entities as pipes (for skulks) instead of high detailed brushes, to make it look better. Using models instead of brushes is the future <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> The way you do it, is to make the entity illusionary, then add invisible brushes around the edges. This could work on the HL engine, problem is, it doesn't take a lot of entities for the engine to wear out, unlike the source engine.
Ps. I appologize if I am handing out information you already knew.
Can't wait to map for ns2 neither by the way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Counter-Strike! Pre-compile it there, then later add NS2 entities, and even NS2 textures if you want that.
An engine that needs extra work for outdoor designs <u>is not finished</u>. And this is where the programmer realize that the indoor managment isn't so good and need improvment.
Once you can handle indoor (supposing your doing to the lower levels Dx9/OpenGL).
-Object/mesh management (rotation, translation, bending, whatever etc.).
-Occlusion management (hadware helps a lot), with automated alogrythms or using mapper help (specific object designed for that purpose).
(i'm just talking about what player see, not collision detection et game managment etc.)
You <b>CAN </b>handle Outdoor things.
Then comes method (for mapping also); i mean what are the 'tricks' the engine use to render more efficiently the landscape. These optimizations will benefit <b>BOTH </b>Indoor and Outdoor. Because this is the same kind of trick for both. That's it!
The only real difference would be complex lightning. But the NS2 engine don't have to go that far (at first). I mean, when you are shooting at a skulk you don't care for the light level covering 1 pixel located on the cieling that should be augmented by 1%... if calculus are right.
The main trick is to avoid the managment of everything the player don't see, and lowering resolution (mesh, texture, sprite replacement) for the things that are far away, and far far away.
Short story: If you create an engine that is capable of these (for some: not) basic (<- 'somehow' for others ) things; You can handle Outdoor.
<!--quoteo(post=1702172:date=Mar 7 2009, 01:49 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 7 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This engine has NO map compiling. Everything is computed on the fly so we can iterate quickly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
Since your viewer is a simple viewport into the world, I take it that it has the same dynamic culling, and lighting. Since that is the case, would it be possible to have the camera be bound to player like entity? That way you can walk and look at what you are building as you go.