I heard that in NS2 marines can buy their own equipment
OBhave
Join Date: 2003-03-13 Member: 14462Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-03-13 Member: 14462Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">... *IF* that is so, how to do this well?</div>A couple points:
1) As we all know, the marines have their resources in a common pool. But it would be VERY annoying for the comm to be about to drop an RT, and then a rine buys equipment and *poof* everybody has to wait for the RT.
So for starters, marines can only buy their own guns when their purchase wont bring the res pool below, say ... 20... or 30 ... or something.
2) Annoying rambo people carelessly losing their stuff. The best way to deal with this would be to let people have to *earn* the res they use to buy stuff. But that res would still be in the common pool... you only earn the <i>right</i> to spend from the common pool (and only if condition 1 is met).
-Examples of earning:
Following orders
Sticking together
Losing your equipment as little as possible (stuff picked up by an ally wouldn't count as a loss)
Welding marines and structures
Dealing damage to the enemy.
The comm should of course still have the ability to drop weapons whenever he/she wants.
What do you guys think? (and also, do you know if rines really WILL be able to buy their own stuff?)
1) As we all know, the marines have their resources in a common pool. But it would be VERY annoying for the comm to be about to drop an RT, and then a rine buys equipment and *poof* everybody has to wait for the RT.
So for starters, marines can only buy their own guns when their purchase wont bring the res pool below, say ... 20... or 30 ... or something.
2) Annoying rambo people carelessly losing their stuff. The best way to deal with this would be to let people have to *earn* the res they use to buy stuff. But that res would still be in the common pool... you only earn the <i>right</i> to spend from the common pool (and only if condition 1 is met).
-Examples of earning:
Following orders
Sticking together
Losing your equipment as little as possible (stuff picked up by an ally wouldn't count as a loss)
Welding marines and structures
Dealing damage to the enemy.
The comm should of course still have the ability to drop weapons whenever he/she wants.
What do you guys think? (and also, do you know if rines really WILL be able to buy their own stuff?)
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
1) As we all know, the marines have their resources in a common pool. But it would be VERY annoying for the comm to be about to drop an RT, and then a rine buys equipment and *poof* everybody has to wait for the RT.
So for starters, marines can only buy their own guns when their purchase wont bring the res pool below, say ... 20... or 30 ... or something.
2) Annoying rambo people carelessly losing their stuff. The best way to deal with this would be to let people have to *earn* the res they use to buy stuff. But that res would still be in the common pool... you only earn the <i>right</i> to spend from the common pool (and only if condition 1 is met).
-Examples of earning:
Following orders
Sticking together
Losing your equipment as little as possible (stuff picked up by an ally wouldn't count as a loss)
Welding marines and structures
Dealing damage to the enemy.
The comm should of course still have the ability to drop weapons whenever he/she wants.
What do you guys think? (and also, do you know if rines really WILL be able to buy their own stuff?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im sceptical aswell (about marines buy the weapons by themselves)
I dont like the idea that the commander loses control about giving out weapons.
I would prefer the idea that the commander "creates" the weapon (at the armory), and marines
could then choose it from the armory. So the commander(s) dont lose control about the common
resource pool.
the process of "creating" a weapon could also consume time, like an upgrade. Comparable to Starcraft where
you build units in a queue, in ns you "build" weapons. So the more armories, the faster you could "create" weapons.
this would even add more tactic to the game I guess.
And yes, I am sceptical too.
(sigh) but both the NS1 way and what looks to be the NS2 way have their weaknesses ... I guess the reason they're changing how the comm works is that currently a single man can too easily ruin the whole game.
That reminds me... I was brainstorming the other day about action/RTS hybrids (a type of game I really want to see more of) ... and I was also thinking about this fad about collecting and levelling stuff that's currently passing over FPS games ...
And I thought ... instead of levelling up to gain more weapons (thus breaking the rule of an equal playing field in competetive games) ... why can't people "grind" something more productive. Like reputation.
A players could anonymously rate each other, and players with a long-standing, solid rep scores would have more weight when rating others.
At least then finally people could identify who should be going for the comm seat. And griefers could be identified. And griefing discouraged. And other things.
... btw I am in no way suggesting that UWE should go for devising such a system. I was just thinking out loud, really... and yes this system does take much of the anonymity out of gaming, by requiring that your cdkey be bound to your reputation. But I'm guessing that something akin to this is the future of action/RTS games.
about consequenzes. I mean one day you have just a bad mood and ruin a game,
your reputation will anyway suffer. People who want to have a good repution will
not switch their identity (changing nick name) often, and in NS1 its now like when
a known, good player is entering the command chair, nobody will try to eject him.
if somebody enters the chair, who is clearly a noob and is doing "######" he / she
will get ejected quite fast.
But i would prefer to stay on anonymity (dont know if written correct) of players.
There still could be an internal, invisible system that just forbits you (i mean the
player id, not the nick name) entering the comm chair for a few hours (on all servers).
But i dont want to see a repution system that takes affect on everything you are doing.
One thing would be nice, like "accury of hitting" or "kill / death stats" which
are viewable on the official ns2 site. that would encourage the "pros" and
would encourage to stay with an identity. Having some overall reward based
on how "good" or how "pro" you are playing would be redundant for many players
but would just be nice for the "pros" who want to earn respect. (well im not one
of that mentioned cathegory of players)
*Commander can hand out equipment (old style) but marines can still buy on their own if the commander let them.
*Assign X amount of resources to Armory, but max X amount to eatch player (or specific player).
*Chose wich of the researched equipment that will be available at armory (for example if commander dont want marines to use Jetpack he can disable it).
*Let players rate (give - or +) rating to one player (can not rate themself ofcourse) after eatch map. (I think CoD 4 has something like this)
Depending upon the amoutnt and variety of weapons or weapon attachments, also keeping in mind the VAST amount of modded, or addon weapons that will appear on servers, there needs to be a solution that will be friendly to each specific player.
Before there were talkings of having weapon attachments, like flamethrowers attached to your shotgun, or grenade attachments, etc....
Anyways, the best way I see this working is pretty simple (simpler is always always always better).
You get a menu when you first spawn in and when you are dead. The menu brings up all researched/available weapons/attachments/armor/etc. ( I think of a TF2 style menu-only NS style ).
For example when you first spawn in you see LMG & Pistol, and whatever else the devs decide to make the starting gear. Everything else is greyed out. or "Locked". Whenever the commander researches weaponry, advanced armory, etc these things become available to the marines to choose.
And then if you are one of those real tough ######, or one of those ###### that likes to camp out you just go back to the armory, and it brings up the menu, you click what you want. And presto~.
So basically, in game it would be like this:
From the ready room, you select Frontiersmen....
Spawn in- Menu pops up, you select LMG Pistol Knife
Game starts, and you start killing the aliens.
You die, and waiting to spawn in you notice the Commander has researched grenade attachments, flamethrower attachments, and shotguns.
You select a Shotgun and Grenade attachment-and spawn in with your selected payload.
After spawning in, your commander says they need flamethrowers in pipeline. You walk up to the armory, and get a flamethrower attachment and head out the door/phasegate.
One time cost to the commander to research. Free afterwards. Marines can use the time spawning in to select their weapons. Less time humping armory. Still flexible allowing changes made without dieing. Also doesn't require tedious weapon dropping to the commander. But still invovles strategic decisions on what to research.
If this was the case, i think that the upgrades would need to be a hell of a lot more expensive, and take a hell of a lot longer to upgrade, just because of the implications. i.e. Aliens kill a whole team somehow. Aliens charge marine spawn. Aliens are confronted with a full marine team with HA and HMG's. Scary? Yes.
If this was the case, i think that the upgrades would need to be a hell of a lot more expensive, and take a hell of a lot longer to upgrade, just because of the implications. i.e. Aliens kill a whole team somehow. Aliens charge marine spawn. Aliens are confronted with a full marine team with HA and HMG's. Scary? Yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see it more like, you can pre choose what you want while waiting for respawn and then pick it up at the armory.
But then again, I think the commander should have the final word. Like make restrictions so certain players dont waste all the resources on him/herself.
If this was the case, i think that the upgrades would need to be a hell of a lot more expensive, and take a hell of a lot longer to upgrade, just because of the implications. i.e. Aliens kill a whole team somehow. Aliens charge marine spawn. Aliens are confronted with a full marine team with HA and HMG's. Scary? Yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just don't give them ammo while spawning in.
I agree that increasing the initial resources would be an obvious change It just makes decision making all the more important. It really isn't any different than having 20 HA's HMG's placed directly @ the IP. The only difference is, each marine gets to choose without direct involvment/distraction of the commander.
When a Marine +uses (in HL terms) an Armory, he can select his Stuff from the Pool.
When all Armories are destroyed, the last one going down spits a random Amount from the Pool on the Floor.
Guess we might as well skip this discussion then <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Basically all Marines/Aliens would get +1 resource individually for each RT their team owns at an interval.
The "Commander" position would have its own resource pool, with the player inside also having his own resource pool.
I suggest if they go the Tech Point route, that those RTs bring in +2 resource per interval.
---> This means a 50v50 player game is equal to a 8v8 or 2v2 game. <---
Now all you have to do is balance the resource prices. Simple.
[url=http://www.wiaa.org/article.asp?jordan-3-infrared-23-gs-for-sale-T9998.html]Jordan 3 Infrared 23 GS For Sale[/url]
Charlie: ... Let’s see, another question: marine classes and weapons buying. So the question I guess was how will the marines buy weapons or what types of things they can buy?
Max: Yeah, I think just more information on something we talked about before, which is having the marines able to buy their own weapons and also whether or not it would mean that there would be classes in the game for marines, like in a traditional game where you choose a role and you get a certain load-out for it.
Charlie: I definitely don’t see a class system in NS – not for the marines. The aliens always basically had a class system, but I always liked the idea kind of the Tribes model, where your role is dictated by the equipment that you’re carrying.
Max: Kind of like an ad hoc class system.
Charlie: Yeah, more flexible. It’s flexible, of course you don’t have the specialization that you do when you choose a class, ‘cause you can have like the spy, who we know has really specialized moves or has damage dealt to him in a totally different way or something. So see them buying their own equipment and customizing themselves that way instead of through classes.
Max: Right, although if you wanted to, you could still do those things through the equipment – a lot of it. You can have large differentiators. Like in Natural Selection 1, the Heavy versus the Light is not a significant difference other than speed and armor.
Charlie: Right.
Max: But you could give the Heavy and additional ability or something, kind of like Planetside, where you can lock down and basically become a human turret.
Charlie: Yeah, so I think how that works with the commander is he will basically be unlocking technology and opening up nodes in the tech tree and then once a node is open then marines on the ground can access new equipment. So, the commander can allow heavy machine guns; he spends the cash to research that, and once it completes, the guys on the ground can buy heavy machineguns. That’s the basic idea.
Max: [uh hmm in agreement]
I understand that, and I do remember listening to that too. But the whole point of view taken by the devs in that podcast was from the marines. There's no consideration of the practical aspect of implementing team strategies in their answers, or how that practice will prevent individual marines from consuming the team resources (either via abuse or ineptitude). So I guess there's a big void of information we don't have on how it'll all work yet.
Here is the content of first post.
<!--quoteo(post=1663862:date=Dec 13 2007, 05:26 PM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (afratnikov @ Dec 13 2007, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine weapons will be handled quite differently in NS2. From <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2007/10/seventh_podcast" target="_blank">7th podcast</a>:
Post your ideas on how the new Weapon System might work. For simplicity, assume the weapons are from NS1 - this topic is NOT meant to discuss ideas for new Marine weapons.
Also, try to think from a soldier's point of view:
- How much control do you want to have in choosing your weapon/equipment?
- How could the Weapon System make the game more enjoyable even under a bad comm?
================================================================================
If you're reading this thread for the first time, read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666228" target="_blank">Misere's summary of ideas</a>.
Summary of ideas on first 3 pages:
The NS2 Weapon System will allow marines to decide for themselves what weapons they will use, but the commander will still affects their choices.
*note: the post # is on top right of each post. There are 20 posts per page.
Marines earn their own "money" and buy weapons they choose [Post #: 3, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1663971" target="_blank">16</a>, 23, 25]
Timer instead of Money as marine resource [Post #: 13, 14, 15]
Marines request for weapons and the comm decides what team load-out should be [Post #: 20, 28, 34, 36, 42, 47]
Commander's indirect control of marines' load-out [Post #: 31, 35]
Marines get weapons for free after a costly research by comm [Post #: 39, 41, 43]
Marines earn own res, but comm can still buy weapons [Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418&st=40&p=1664749&#entry1664749" target="_blank">48</a>]
Commander buys weapons to the armory, players choose the weapon from storage [Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666592" target="_blank">99</a>, 100, ]
Commander uses scoreboard-like screen to know how marines are equipped, respond to their requests, and give new equipment (includes a picture!)[Post #: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1666800" target="_blank">102</a>, 103, 116]
Other:
Collection of things to consider [Post #: 2, 4, 6, 10, 18, 19]
EDITS: If you think i should change or add something here, send me a PM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quick replies:
@ Windburn: Good points. There was a lot of depth in the discussion i quoted above that deal with exactly the issues you raise. I don't think the devs will have the time to create a complex system. It will probably be simple and intuitive. I believe the NS2 system will not require the commander to micromanage soldiers' equipment and instead will focus on the bigger picture. Commanders will also probably have many more "spells" compared to med/ammo/scan/stim in NS1. Still, i'd like for commanders to be able to make sudden shotgun rushes for example...
@ OBhave: Hopefully the podcast text helped you get the nfo you needed. Your suggestions are pretty good, but your assumption that "As we all know, the marines have their resources in a common pool..." is not! The way you describe it, it would obviously fail and the developers are sure aware of it as well - they're a smart bunch! However they're pressed on time and have a lot of other things to work out as well. My only hope is that at one time or another the devs actually look at the above discussion for inspiration.
I dont like the idea that the commander loses control about giving out weapons.
I would prefer the idea that the commander "creates" the weapon (at the armory), and marines
could then choose it from the armory. So the commander(s) dont lose control about the common
resource pool.
the process of "creating" a weapon could also consume time, like an upgrade. Comparable to Starcraft where
you build units in a queue, in ns you "build" weapons. So the more armories, the faster you could "create" weapons.
this would even add more tactic to the game I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1-commander pay common res to put weapon into armory
2-then marine gain res per kill like alien and need to purshase weapon with their own res
3-the res used in armory to purshase weapon go into common pool
so the common poll is used by commander only