Don't think you have anything to worry about. Not allowing Aliens to use ladders will probably benefit the gameplay side of things a lot. More strategy and what not.
<!--quoteo(post=1713498:date=Jun 22 2009, 06:23 PM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Jun 22 2009, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't think you have anything to worry about. Not allowing Aliens to use ladders will probably benefit the gameplay side of things a lot. More strategy and what not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. I too think that gameplay > realism. But, come one, there are some things that really makes no sense.
Every time I see an Onos climbing a ladder I think how ridiculous that scene is.
In my opinion, Aliens really shouldn't use ladders.
Well, onos certainly looked bizarre climbing ladders in NS. For the other forms it was more believable. I'm not sure removing the ability to climb ladders for all life forms is worth it just for the onos. Why not just let the onos gestate to/from a skulk freely and then the onos can use that to get around the ladder problem? It would also make the onos even scarier because you'd never know where one might be lurking =P
Yes absolutely. It makes no sense at all to have aliens climbing ladders because no aliens have hands and the only creature that looks like it can do it is a fade, but that would just be silly.
For once onos's will have a weakness. Death from above... and by above i mean a marine that climbed a ladder higher then the onos can jump. This can really help to balance the game. Especially in CO.
If it's well done, presented to the player properly and obviously, and maps are designed properly, there are very few mechanics that could make a game suck.
Well, except for insta-win nukes for Marines at 10 minutes....
I've seen hamsters and mice climb the bars of their cage, so I'd say that Gorge and Fade should be able to climb ladders, Onos clearly incapable and skulk & lerk got other ways to get there.
Aside for the level issues common in combat and discussion using a ladder for protection; allow the onos a ram ability to shake the marines off the ladder. However this still leaves the level designer a responsibility to provide alternate paths for an onos to take; ramps and lifts near a ladder. Fades can teleport, skulks use wall running, lerks can fly, but what of gorges? Free-form gestation? *Reminder* Onos can stand atop the skulk(s) to be boosted up.
<!--quoteo(post=1713526:date=Jun 22 2009, 07:22 PM:name=ToeL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToeL @ Jun 22 2009, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aside for the level issues common in combat and discussion using a ladder for protection; allow the onos a ram ability to shake the marines off the ladder. However this still leaves the level designer a responsibility to provide alternate paths for an onos to take; ramps and lifts near a ladder. Fades can teleport, skulks use wall running, lerks can fly, but what of gorges? Free-form gestation? *Reminder* Onos can stand atop the skulk(s) to be boosted up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok i agree but theirs a few points i want to disagree on. First a onos shouldn't be allowed to stand on a skulk or gorge lol. Second... the stomp feature in ns1 was always cheap... as cheap as digestion. I'd like to see digestion removed and stomp reworked. Perhaps stomp can affect one's hud by shaking it and therefore making aiming harder... but no more of the stomp = glued to the floor.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
here's an idea, stop creating a new thread everytime you want to whinge, you arent more important than everyone else and starting a new thread doesnt make your point any more valid.
Don't underestimate the role of aesthetics in a game, since Crappy aesthetics can slowly ruin games...if doing something in the game looks and feels completely retarded, it takes away something from the whole experience.
Don't underestimate the role of aesthetics in a game, since Crappy aesthetics can slowly ruin games...if doing something in the game looks and feels completely retarded, it takes away something from the whole experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Player vs player multiplayer games are very reliant on gameplay, not so much on the aesthetics. Of course the details are nice too, but I'm willing to forgive quite a bit of silly stuff as long as it serves the gameplay well.
I think the ladder issue is part of the change away from the mod basis though. You can't easily get away with floating onoses in a commercial product.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but no more of the stomp = glued to the floor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stomp is meant to throw you down, but that was not possible because HL limits the maximum amount of Hitboxes.
Dont want to fire up a debate on that subject , but really how much worth is it to sweat the small details of realism vs gameplay when its more that likely the very first NS Kharaa vs Frontiermans fight will feature the marines bouncing like depraved lunatics with pogosticks charging the Kharaa ?
NS was a fast paced fight , even if the battles took long to resolve the actual skirmishes were fast and furious and as such you need to have smooth and fast play rather than clunky but realistic mechanisms that attempt to force 'realism'. Take this Onos and the ladder issue , a simple but very annoying issue could arise if the Onos is attempting to kill some marines that merely climb up and down a ladder , knowing full well the Onos cant get to melee range as long as he has to go around to get to them... a canny marine can kite an Onos with relative ease due to this mechinism.
Lets face it, unless you add a lot of systems and mechanisms to force realistic behaviour , the manner in which other players will detract a lot from realism... after all you cant expect a player to role play in this game.
Remember that NS is all about teamwork.. While the Onos is chasing the marine and the marine climbs up the ladder, focussing merely on the Onos.. A Skulk could be waiting on top of the ladder, biting the surprised marine...
<!--quoteo(post=1713571:date=Jun 23 2009, 02:09 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 23 2009, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Player vs player multiplayer games are very reliant on gameplay, not so much on the aesthetics. Of course the details are nice too, but I'm willing to forgive quite a bit of silly stuff as long as it serves the gameplay well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering how TF2 didn't work out well in a modern/realistic setting due to gameplay-related constrains linked to graphics, I can't say that graphics don't play a big part on multiplayer games.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Gameplay and Realism do not have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, I find that when you get good portions of both you get great games. So long as you don't overly focus on one to the detriment of the other then it'll be fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1713609:date=Jun 23 2009, 11:50 AM:name=Vi3trice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vi3trice @ Jun 23 2009, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering how TF2 didn't work out well in a modern/realistic setting due to gameplay-related constrains linked to graphics, I can't say that graphics don't play a big part on multiplayer games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure how TF2 didn't work.
Considering how <b>TF2 didn't work out well in a modern/realistic setting*</b> due to <i>gameplay-related constraints linked to graphics*</i>, I can't say that graphics don't play a big part on multiplayer games.
<!--quoteo(post=1713571:date=Jun 22 2009, 10:39 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 22 2009, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Player vs player multiplayer games are very reliant on gameplay, not so much on the aesthetics. Of course the details are nice too, but I'm willing to forgive quite a bit of silly stuff as long as it serves the gameplay well.
I think the ladder issue is part of the change away from the mod basis though. You can't easily get away with floating onoses in a commercial product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly...due to a aesthetics
Why do some people prefer slow paced tactical FPS Ravenshield versus quick action fragtastic Tribes? Aesthetics. One is more pleasing then other for what ever reason..doesn't just have to be visual. Same reason someone prefers Football over Tennis. Does the Football player think tennis lacks skill or is not a competitive game? Probably just doesn't think its "fun"....for a wide variety for reasons. He doesn't like the fact its not a team sport...or that you never come in contact with your opponent or that you never actual handle the ball itself....ect...All comes down to personal aesthetic preference.
<!--quoteo(post=1713616:date=Jun 23 2009, 10:04 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 23 2009, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure how TF2 didn't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's also the publications on Valve's website and the developer commentaries in TF2. Basically, map layouts from TFC didn't make sense in a modern setting, characters blended in the environment and was a detriment to gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1713693:date=Jun 23 2009, 08:43 PM:name=Frogg2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frogg2 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure there will be handicap ramps on the maps in ns2, the TSA doesn't want to have to deal with all the lawsuits again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HAHAHA very funny =D
It also stands to reason that sense NS2 is later on down the road (about 2 years I think in the game world) that the TSA would have noticed that the ladders were a death trap in their previous engagements and removed them and replaced them with some kind of lift system in case of alien attacks anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1713627:date=Jun 23 2009, 02:35 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 23 2009, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->exactly...due to a aesthetics
Why do some people prefer slow paced tactical FPS Ravenshield versus quick action fragtastic Tribes? Aesthetics. One is more pleasing then other for what ever reason..doesn't just have to be visual. Same reason someone prefers Football over Tennis. Does the Football player think tennis lacks skill or is not a competitive game? Probably just doesn't think its "fun"....for a wide variety for reasons. He doesn't like the fact its not a team sport...or that you never come in contact with your opponent or that you never actual handle the ball itself....ect...All comes down to personal aesthetic preference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, my understanding of the aesthetics is that they are practically the way the game feeds your senses. Animations, graphical tricks, probably even the sounds of the game.
Team elements and such are gameplay. They are the set of rules that decide how the game itself is played.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wikipedia+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aesthetics (also spelled æsthetics) is commonly known as the study of sensory or sensori-emotional values, sometimes called judgments of sentiment and taste.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In most day-to-day contexts, people mean 'visual aesthetics' - e.g. 'aesthetically pleasing'. Does depend on the context though.
Personally, I think that a game can focus on both, but has to focus on at least one of them. There are games out there that focus on realism over game play ( such thing as one hit weapons, and time accurate weapons ), but that does not mean they are not fun. I think that most people here like game play over realism, as real life is often very restriced in what you can do.
Game play is what NS is more about though, and should be a focus, with some realism tacked on, so that it does not feel that far away from possible. That or the marines might get magic/psychic users that could cast a spell on magic arrow on skulks, but that is not what we think of when we think of NS. We think of ranged guns, that could exist in IRL, not something that exists only in books ( as far as we know ).
<!--quoteo(post=1713708:date=Jun 24 2009, 12:54 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 24 2009, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, my understanding of the aesthetics is that they are practically the way the game feeds your senses. Animations, graphical tricks, probably even the sounds of the game.
Team elements and such are gameplay. They are the set of rules that decide how the game itself is played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are many types of 'gameplay'. What decides which one you prefer? I can guarantee you people don't solely play games based on which one they feel is the most competitive or skill oriented. My point is, Aesthetics (general word for taste...not all visual) plays a big role whether or not you like playing a game. There is something that goes beyond simple Gameplay vs Realism.
<!--quoteo(post=1713740:date=Jun 24 2009, 01:22 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 24 2009, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are many types of 'gameplay'. What decides which one you prefer? I can guarantee you people don't solely play games based on which one they feel is the most competitive or skill oriented. My point is, Aesthetics (general word for taste...not all visual) plays a big role whether or not you like playing a game. There is something that goes beyond simple Gameplay vs Realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but how does gameplay preference or gameplay vs realism matter here? My point is that in an action packed team vs team multiplayer aesthetics should ultimately serve the gameplay. It's not a one-or-the-other thing or even necessarily the two opposites, but still the aesthetics aren't going to carry the game over the flaws in the gameplay in a game like this. The <b>purely</b> atmosphere based games are nice in their own way, but at least the original NS isn't one of them.
I think NS managed to balance out the game nicely by it's unique and awesome visual style, but still not sacrificing much of the gameplay to get there. If they can pull it off again, it's going to be great.
---
Oh yes, I didn't even remember the TF2 development change back then. I guess I had already judged the game in to the DNF class and forgotten it. At that point the change was definitely good and important. However, NS has already got the visual style that works, so it boils down to the smaller details.
It's more that people take graphics/visuals as a given and ask for better gameplay, then start whining when visuals aren't up to par or start having a negative effect on gameplay... Try finding a balance to this when there's always someone whining (Casuals, hardcores, give them any name you want.)
Comments
I agree.
I too think that gameplay > realism. But, come one, there are some things that really makes no sense.
Every time I see an Onos climbing a ladder I think how ridiculous that scene is.
In my opinion, Aliens really shouldn't use ladders.
For once onos's will have a weakness. Death from above... and by above i mean a marine that climbed a ladder higher then the onos can jump. This can really help to balance the game. Especially in CO.
If used properly, gameplay could benefit from this.
Well, except for insta-win nukes for Marines at 10 minutes....
Fades can teleport, skulks use wall running, lerks can fly, but what of gorges? Free-form gestation?
*Reminder* Onos can stand atop the skulk(s) to be boosted up.
Fades can teleport, skulks use wall running, lerks can fly, but what of gorges? Free-form gestation?
*Reminder* Onos can stand atop the skulk(s) to be boosted up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok i agree but theirs a few points i want to disagree on. First a onos shouldn't be allowed to stand on a skulk or gorge lol. Second... the stomp feature in ns1 was always cheap... as cheap as digestion. I'd like to see digestion removed and stomp reworked. Perhaps stomp can affect one's hud by shaking it and therefore making aiming harder... but no more of the stomp = glued to the floor.
Don't underestimate the role of aesthetics in a game, since Crappy aesthetics can slowly ruin games...if doing something in the game looks and feels completely retarded, it takes away something from the whole experience.
Don't underestimate the role of aesthetics in a game, since Crappy aesthetics can slowly ruin games...if doing something in the game looks and feels completely retarded, it takes away something from the whole experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Player vs player multiplayer games are very reliant on gameplay, not so much on the aesthetics. Of course the details are nice too, but I'm willing to forgive quite a bit of silly stuff as long as it serves the gameplay well.
I think the ladder issue is part of the change away from the mod basis though. You can't easily get away with floating onoses in a commercial product.
Stomp is meant to throw you down, but that was not possible because HL limits the maximum amount of Hitboxes.
NS was a fast paced fight , even if the battles took long to resolve the actual skirmishes were fast and furious and as such you need to have smooth and fast play rather than clunky but realistic mechanisms that attempt to force 'realism'.
Take this Onos and the ladder issue , a simple but very annoying issue could arise if the Onos is attempting to kill some marines that merely climb up and down a ladder , knowing full well the Onos cant get to melee range as long as he has to go around to get to them... a canny marine can kite an Onos with relative ease due to this mechinism.
Lets face it, unless you add a lot of systems and mechanisms to force realistic behaviour , the manner in which other players will detract a lot from realism... after all you cant expect a player to role play in this game.
Considering how TF2 didn't work out well in a modern/realistic setting due to gameplay-related constrains linked to graphics, I can't say that graphics don't play a big part on multiplayer games.
Could you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure how TF2 didn't work.
I think the ladder issue is part of the change away from the mod basis though. You can't easily get away with floating onoses in a commercial product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly...due to a aesthetics
Why do some people prefer slow paced tactical FPS Ravenshield versus quick action fragtastic Tribes? Aesthetics. One is more pleasing then other for what ever reason..doesn't just have to be visual. Same reason someone prefers Football over Tennis. Does the Football player think tennis lacks skill or is not a competitive game? Probably just doesn't think its "fun"....for a wide variety for reasons. He doesn't like the fact its not a team sport...or that you never come in contact with your opponent or that you never actual handle the ball itself....ect...All comes down to personal aesthetic preference.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&fmt=18" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&fmt=18</a>
There's also the publications on Valve's website and the developer commentaries in TF2. Basically, map layouts from TFC didn't make sense in a modern setting, characters blended in the environment and was a detriment to gameplay.
Ladders are one of the causes for much hate in this world.
Although you could just give the onos some kind of high jump feature.
HAHAHA very funny =D
It also stands to reason that sense NS2 is later on down the road (about 2 years I think in the game world) that the TSA would have noticed that the ladders were a death trap in their previous engagements and removed them and replaced them with some kind of lift system in case of alien attacks anyways.
Why do some people prefer slow paced tactical FPS Ravenshield versus quick action fragtastic Tribes? Aesthetics. One is more pleasing then other for what ever reason..doesn't just have to be visual. Same reason someone prefers Football over Tennis. Does the Football player think tennis lacks skill or is not a competitive game? Probably just doesn't think its "fun"....for a wide variety for reasons. He doesn't like the fact its not a team sport...or that you never come in contact with your opponent or that you never actual handle the ball itself....ect...All comes down to personal aesthetic preference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, my understanding of the aesthetics is that they are practically the way the game feeds your senses. Animations, graphical tricks, probably even the sounds of the game.
Team elements and such are gameplay. They are the set of rules that decide how the game itself is played.
In most day-to-day contexts, people mean 'visual aesthetics' - e.g. 'aesthetically pleasing'. Does depend on the context though.
Game play is what NS is more about though, and should be a focus, with some realism tacked on, so that it does not feel that far away from possible. That or the marines might get magic/psychic users that could cast a spell on magic arrow on skulks, but that is not what we think of when we think of NS. We think of ranged guns, that could exist in IRL, not something that exists only in books ( as far as we know ).
Team elements and such are gameplay. They are the set of rules that decide how the game itself is played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are many types of 'gameplay'. What decides which one you prefer? I can guarantee you people don't solely play games based on which one they feel is the most competitive or skill oriented. My point is, Aesthetics (general word for taste...not all visual) plays a big role whether or not you like playing a game. There is something that goes beyond simple Gameplay vs Realism.
Yes, but how does gameplay preference or gameplay vs realism matter here? My point is that in an action packed team vs team multiplayer aesthetics should ultimately serve the gameplay. It's not a one-or-the-other thing or even necessarily the two opposites, but still the aesthetics aren't going to carry the game over the flaws in the gameplay in a game like this. The <b>purely</b> atmosphere based games are nice in their own way, but at least the original NS isn't one of them.
I think NS managed to balance out the game nicely by it's unique and awesome visual style, but still not sacrificing much of the gameplay to get there. If they can pull it off again, it's going to be great.
---
Oh yes, I didn't even remember the TF2 development change back then. I guess I had already judged the game in to the DNF class and forgotten it. At that point the change was definitely good and important. However, NS has already got the visual style that works, so it boils down to the smaller details.