Question for mappers

Superfly · June 2009

<div class="IPBDescription">What matters more artistic or technical Ability? Perhaps both?</div>Quick question for you seasoned mappers out there.

I am interested in knowing if you feel that your artistic abilities or your technical abilities have a bigger influence in your map making.

So should someone (read Superfly) who is fairly creative but artistically challenged bother trying to build a map for NS2? Or would it be a waste of time?

Wisp · June 2009

Map making is never a waste of time if you put sufficient effort into it. If you have a good idea for a map, go ahead and make it!

slayer20 · June 2009

That's a very good question. I would say it's both for me. I'm guess you mean like architecture and stuff like that for the technical abilities right?

The artistic abilities can play a great role in map making with making things stand out and look nice, special effects, etc etc...

An example would be in Hammer to make a normal looking room with some kind of setting (let's say a space lab). You compile and run the map and go into the room and it still looks kind of bland...this is where the artistic abilities should kick in. Changing light settings, adding small particle effects, and adding sound can really spice up a small room to make it look amazing.

Also, don't forget the color correction.

I hope that makes sense...

Superfly · June 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer20 @ Jun 24 2009, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's a very good question. I would say it's both for me. I'm guess you mean like architecture and stuff like that for the technical abilities right?The artistic abilities can play a great role in map making with making things stand out and look nice, special effects, etc etc...An example would be in Hammer to make a normal looking room with some kind of setting (let's say a space lab). You compile and run the map and go into the room and it still looks kind of bland...this is where the artistic abilities should kick in. Changing light settings, adding small particle effects, and adding sound can really spice up a small room to make it look amazing.Also, don't forget the color correction.I hope that makes sense...</div>

It makes perfect sense; this is the kind of feedback I was looking for. I always struggle with the finer details, put perhaps using other quality maps as a guide would help overcome some of that.

Vi3trice · June 2009

Eh... Don't want to be a buzzkill here, but both creativity and technical abilities are required for mapping. It's modeling for crying out loud... I've seen a creative guy (A friggin' god compared to me or the rest) leave Game Design due to the constrains of software like Photoshop and Maya. It's like, clay modeling. You can have the ideas, but damn that wad of clay will look messed up if you don't know what the hell you're doing with your fingers. I should know, I can do pretty much anything with my hands, but I can't think of anything unless I spend an hour on it.

Technically, it's not a waste of time, you'll just have to spend more time on your map.

Triggerman · June 2009

Honestly it's first and foremost about architecture and points of interest.
You can create a really awesome map with just blocks and it's still helluvalot playable, and this is the most important thing about a map in my book.
After that comes the artistic visions, with each room having something for the players to navigate from, natural layouts to guide the player instinctively along a path without him knowing it and then miscellaneous things like adding capsules, broken machiniery and so on. Alot of things goes underneath the players receptive recognition, and that's where the map needs a nice touch in order to feel natural to the playerbase, but first and foremost you need the architecture. Period.

I'm not a leveldesigner but this is my opinion at least; you can create a map. If you're the greater leveldesigner architect than artistic mastermind I'm pretty sure the architect wins out in the end. You can put all the effort you want into making it look awesome; but if it's unfair, feels awkward or doesn't follow the mapping guidelines it won't really matter.
And if you're not that aesthetic I'm sure there's someone out there that can do it for you or help you along the way. You shouldn't underestimate yourself if you actually try.

Edit: If it's a waste of time? Depends, you'd really need to put some effort into doing it if you're not artistic. So it would probably require some training to get the map looking more visual or contacts to pull that off, and playtesters to test it.
But getting the foundation of a great map I'm sure you can start with without knowing too much artistic stuff.

MrRadicalEd · June 2009

I say, as long as you keep the vision you have of your theme or design in mind, little could go wrong, but then you have to remind yourself of technical details like the layout and general game mechanics influence your internal vision. Obviously, the technical ability will act as the ceiling for a mappers work, but that can always be raised with "practice practice practice".

Daworm · June 2009

I say Technical Ability over Artistic.

If you are artistically challenged, then get a helper on board to do the artistic side of it.
Have a go at a basic artistic flair and then find someone who is willing to work WITH you on the look of things.

frostymoose · June 2009

I believe the idea with NS2 is to ship the tools with access to all of the game's textures and map props. With enough variety in those, I'm sure that you can make a pretty good looking map.

If you have ut3 or gears on PC, it comes with the unreal editor. You can use any prop in the game to make a map. Really it would just come down to, in large part, knowing where the prop you want is. The whole point of those is so that players can make the maps they want and have them look good. It's still a big undertaking, but really - artistic ability shouldn't be a big factor.

(Being an environment artist is a different story.)

Harimau · June 2009

You could try collaborating with someone else that has better artistic sense? You don't have to fly solo unless you *really* want to.

Crispy · June 2009

It's tempting to say that the technical details (such as the layout, complexity and performance) are what will define the long-term enjoyment and the artistic details are what will define the initial appeal. With NS there are maps that never get chosen if they come up in a map vote despite being artistically brilliant because of poor layout (Ayumi) and there are maps that always get voted because they have balanced layouts, in spite of them not being as artistically deep or refined (Tanith, Veil). Then there are maps that do both well (Origin, Metal, Caged) and there are maps that are still played today, loved purely for the atmosphere they produce even though they have their balance flaws (Bast, Nothing, Nancy).

The bigger requisites are an idea and the dedication to follow it through to its conclusion. If you have a good idea and allow it to permeate your map's decision-making process, allowing it both to spawn ideas and to mould itself around restrictions, you will probably end up with a good map. But you'll only end up with a great map if you stick at it and work beyond your original unveiling to improve it to beyond your original expectations. (See: <a href="http://www.johnsto.co.uk/design/making_dust" target="_blank">The Making of Dust</a>)

All of the technical details and artistic considerations can be worked out through listening to feedback and setting aside time to get to create parts of the map and then make revisions. If you visit the Mapping forum for NS you'll see a stickied thread where mappers have posted a room or multiple screenshots and other mappers have given feedback on a range of aspects such as lighting, navigation, textures and architecture (that's actually a new thread, the old one is probably 10 times the length). Every mapper has generally made a thread showing progress with much feedback given from the community.

Technical ability can be learnt, artistic flair can be imparted through advice. You can learn the ins and outs of the level editor (we will all have to, to a degree) and you can take your style from other influences (most mappers do this). I've seen work from great 3D artists that was done when they were taking their first steps in modelling; they looked awful and they are unrecognisable from what they have gone on to accomplish because they stuck at their craft.

It's also true that there have been map projects involving multiple people, but I've never seen any one of those succeed that wasn't based on an existing level. If you can find someone you work well with, fine, but beware of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Don't expect a team project to have more chance of success because it has more hands at work, in most cases it will incur an unneccessary degree of management and communication which will get in the way of progress.

So my advice would be don't worry about your weaknesses, the most important thing to do is to get your hands dirty and keep asking questions and keep at it.

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