Balancing Motion Tracking for Marines.
Jimyd
Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Quite simple.</div>Make it so you have to have zero(0) velocity for Motion Tracking(MT) to be enabled. This means standing still and crouching.
You could also add walking and crouch moving, if only being able to stand still/crouching(not moving) is underpowered.
*EDIT*
<b>See Post #31 (Jimyd) for updated revision.</b>
You could also add walking and crouch moving, if only being able to stand still/crouching(not moving) is underpowered.
*EDIT*
<b>See Post #31 (Jimyd) for updated revision.</b>
Comments
Scans and well-placed Observatories are already enough to detect aliens.
My suggestion.
My suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to completely copy another game.
You can't argue that my idea would not simplify things. So if the Marines want their "wallhack", they have to stop moving. This means in combat Aliens would have the advantage, since standing still right around the corner of an Alien is never a good idea.
Also means you will not see "pogo sticking" anymore when Marines are travelling.
Pogo Sticking - Jumping up and down while spinning in 360 degrees so nothing can ever sneak up on them.
<!--quoteo(post=1711116:date=Jun 8 2009, 04:55 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jun 8 2009, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best idea is still to get rid of motion tracking once and for all.
Scans and well-placed Observatories are already enough to detect aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would work if Observatories were really cheap, and their energy recharged quickly.
Don't remember if those Upgrades are still in, but the only Thing to stop the imbalance in Motiontracking is to put a range Limit on it as well.
And it needs decoys, like Doors and Railcars, triggering it.
Similar to the Games that employ Aliens Type Motionsensory Systems (AvP).
Edit: I agree MT could be better
No, because then you are back at having the effect and benefits of motion tracking, but just with a unnecessarily complicated interface.
My point is to reduce methods of visibility dectection for marines by getting rid of MT.
A well placed field obs or even two and the resulting increased disposability of scans is enough to detect aliens in key situations, without completely screwing over alien ambushes.
And since the commander's tasks probably will shift a little (probably no more weapon dropping) detecting aliens via scan could become one of the more important things to do in order to support marines on the field.
<b>Nothing</b> should encourage marines to move slowly, period.
<b>Nothing</b> should encourage marines to move slowly, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Care to go more in Detail why MT courages Marines to move slow?
Also, nothing should encourage Marines to rush, too.
<b>Nothing</b> should encourage marines to move slowly, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think you're wrong about that. Making actions seem deliberate and evident makes a game already focused largely around skill into a game only about skill. Providing actions which provide both advantages and disadvantages adds a little something to the game I like to call strategy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Not that camping should be supported, but as we've seen, only good camping does for marines is help them hold positions which generally speaking is a bad idea in natural selection. While you're holding a position, your opposing team is capping resources and taking down your own and you gain nothing. Only works when you've got aliens pegged at their hive or when aliens have you pegged at your base. Don't think it's such a bad idea to encourage that role though. Seems to be a fundamentally different playing style for humans as aliens could never just camp. Makes sense to give a leg up to those who wish to take advantage of this fact, imo.
As a preemptive strike I think you're using skill as in a strict "skill move" definition. Determining correct tactics and strategy is a part of overall "skill", but I don't think you meant to preclude that from being called "skill".
I agree that the post you quoted is melodramatic and not really a truism. It's true certainly that you want to avoid camping and promote forward momentum. That doesn't mean that forward momentum has to be unfocused or blind. I think sacrificing speed for information is a common and worthwhile tradeoff.
Nice attempt at trolling. Please feel free to tell me what game my section by section radar comes from. Additionally, almost every idea out there in the gaming world has it's base on something else. I don't see YOUR suggestion as unique, so yours is "completely copied from another game" too.
Every aspect of any game out there is "copied" off of other games and ideas. The trick is improving on good ideas. Let's see...Natural Selection. Resource Management, not unique. Motion tracking, not unique. Guns, not unique. A commander, not unique. The list can go on and on.
Also, nothing should encourage Marines to rush, too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you actually read the original suggestion? Wrong, everything should encourage marines to rush, it is a fundamental game construct of NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1711405:date=Jun 9 2009, 06:56 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 9 2009, 06:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think you're wrong about that. Making actions seem deliberate and evident makes a game already focused largely around skill into a game only about skill. Providing actions which provide both advantages and disadvantages adds a little something to the game I like to call strategy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Not that camping should be supported, but as we've seen, only good camping does for marines is help them hold positions which generally speaking is a bad idea in natural selection. While you're holding a position, your opposing team is capping resources and taking down your own and you gain nothing. Only works when you've got aliens pegged at their hive or when aliens have you pegged at your base. Don't think it's such a bad idea to encourage that role though. Seems to be a fundamentally different playing style for humans as aliens could never just camp. Makes sense to give a leg up to those who wish to take advantage of this fact, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection is strategically designed around the marines being offensive, but they are bad at it. This forces the marines to push into strategic map locations, but at a disadvantage. Encouraging aliens to form preemptive ambushes. In general, it is better for tech to improve the teams weakness. For marines on the field, strategically, motion tracking currently plays well with their goal and improves their weakness. Making any efforts to reverse this would increase the potential for stagnate games (destroying the strategic element). As the game progresses, advances in each teams tech changes the strategy elements of the game. If tech only increase what they are already good at, you are guaranteed a stagnate game with no branches in strategy.
Also, "no moving" mechanics in a fast paced game are just retarded. The same arguments that have been posted hundreds of times about why recoil, stationary aiming, and sites apply to this suggestion.
This is not exactly how I'd characterise it. Both teams are supposed to be equally aggressive about capping and attacking resources. I'd say you're spot on with the next two sentences though.
<!--quoteo(post=1711428:date=Jun 9 2009, 01:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Jun 9 2009, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This forces the marines to push into strategic map locations, but at a disadvantage. Encouraging aliens to form preemptive ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1711428:date=Jun 9 2009, 01:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Jun 9 2009, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general, it is better for tech to improve the teams weakness. For marines on the field, strategically, motion tracking currently plays well with their goal and improves their weakness. Making any efforts to reverse this would increase the potential for stagnate games (destroying the strategic element). As the game progresses, advances in each teams tech changes the strategy elements of the game. If tech only increase what they are already good at, you are guaranteed a stagnate game with no branches in strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are different techs that fill different roles, but that's different from improving a "weakness". You can get a GL or go gorge to bilebomb to take out structures but at the cost of fighting power. MT is useful for detecting kharaa if they have mvt or d chambers, but not worth the res if they have a decent number of sensory chambers. Just because MT requires you to stop temporarily to get full benefits doesn't mean these tradeoffs suddenly go away. You're making overgeneralised statements and then using them to justify more overgeneralised statements here.
<!--quoteo(post=1711428:date=Jun 9 2009, 01:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Jun 9 2009, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, "no moving" mechanics in a fast paced game are just retarded. The same arguments that have been posted hundreds of times about why recoil, stationary aiming, and sites apply to this suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except motion tracking isn't fundamental like aiming. Kharaa must take a speed hit(walking) to maintain cloak outside of a sensory chamber, and that would be a much more similar comparison to MT than aiming.
Ok, then make it so that Marines only can see MT Blibs while running (or jumping in a direction, not just pulling a Super Mario) or climbing ladders at max.
See what you did there? Marines allways make noises now if they want to know what's going on around them.
I always thought that MT had most of it's issues on turtling play. It's really difficult to break marine map position once marines have got their MT up and held long enough to get some necessary firepower to the field. The marines will see any organised skulk/fade pushes well in time and onos and gorge attempts are easy to intercept in most maps. For that side of the MT the suggestion doesn't help.
Being offensive on with MT on the other hand has always been a lot more difficult than playing defensive if you ask me. You simply lack 35 res of firepower, which makes pushing really difficult even if you see the enemies coming.
Firstly though, all the things i don't like:
- Causes marines to relax and be less aggressive
- helps Rambo get away with owning one half of the map (like one of these wild west movies except there's no hiding and he has an HMG+JP)
- poor implementation causes endless mostly still deaths
Now onto what I think it should be like:
- An expensive piece of equipment: 1-2 shotguns worth
- No radar blips, little LCD screen on the thing
- It counts as an extra weapon in your inventory, and to view, must be switched to
- leaves you venerable but seeing were they are too
- can be quick switched out of fast.
- Others can't see it, encouraging communication
- doesn't have infinite range, 2-3 rooms
- Another awesome gadget Rambo wants.
I know this gadget has its pros and cons, but I hope it encourages more heavy trains than Rambos.
taken mostly from Aliens
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xba62MqUJig" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xba62MqUJig</a>
PS: as for all that strategy stuff, I totally a fan of blitzkrieg. Attack, consolidate, build up, organize and Attack again.
My suggestion.
Why?
You can't shoot aliens when you can't see them (through your map).
The map only refreshes every x seconds. You can't accurately tell when that particular alien will run around the corner.
In most cases, when viewing your hax map, you are left open to be destroyed (but only if your silly enough to not notice the approaching alien on your map)
Thoughts??
I would have created another topic, but hazaa! Theres already a topic here :O
So I propose that, walking/stationary/crouch moving allow MT enabled.
Not enabled when: Running/Jumping/Swimming
(Ladder climbing is debatable on what is balanced.)
Remember, by the Marine Commander researching MT, he/she is not "debuffing" his/her team in any way. He/She is just enhancing them.
Also this is alot better than having to pull out an arbitrary MT tool everytime that you would want to use it. The welder makes sense because it physically affects the map, MT is just ehanced sensory through the -----> Marines helmet <-----.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember, by the Marine Commander researching MT, he/she is not "debuffing" his/her team in any way. He/She is just enhancing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is partitially a resoucre model issue if you ask me. In 6v6 environment using 35 res is huge in most parts of the game. The disadvantage, especially early on, is that you're in a huge hurry to get the necessary upgrades in time as the hives and fades are very early. Once the aliens have got to the 50 res mark at a little over 3 minutes at worst, it's difficult to gain any map control without armor 1 or PG tech. So basically you need to have a good early game without any fast upgrades or much extra equipment.
Meanwhile the big public games mess up the timing, leaving a nice opening for the MT as you've got more RFK and res flow time before aliens get their 50 res. This problem should be fixed by the res model changes in NS2 anyway.
Meanwhile the big public games mess up the timing, leaving a nice opening for the MT as you've got more RFK and res flow time before aliens get their 50 res. This problem should be fixed by the res model changes in NS2 anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe this will make MT seem less powerful, but honestly it's not that it's unbalanced, it just has no draw backs other than a moderate res cost. If the kharaa have sensory everywhere(a sign the rines are losing) then it isn't worth the cost, but every other time spare res + MT = good investment. Again it's not that it's unbalanced, just kinda boring. There's no skill to use for the marines, no tradeoffs they have to make. I think the idea that MT isn't reliable on DI would sufficiently change this since now the marine on the field has to decide whether or not to trust the MT at least.
This is a pretty good idea, I have to say, but I think that it's going to become a little annoying.
It does make sense though, because realistically, I think motion tracking would only work when standing still. I mean, cop radars have always been that way (the cops would have to be still to laser your speed)....until recently.
I think that walking and crouch walking should allow you to see movements.
I don't know though. I think that motion tracking and parasite are already perfect in NS1, and don't really think they should be changed at all. It adds strategy to your gameplay.
For instance, your walking into a hallway where you have an idea there is a skulk hiding behind the wall waiting to jump at you when he see's your parasite get close to the entrance to the hallway. You walk up to the entrance, jump back and 90% of the time, the skulk is going to jump out at you, only to find out that you've jumped back and are too far to reach and you start shooting him and most likely kill him :D
I like that, because it works both ways, the way there is a second or two of delay. I hope they don't change it. If they do they should only make it so when you're moving slowly.
If MT is less reliable there should be cheaper scans, no doubt. Similarly, it would be cool for a marine to hold some type of directional MT booster at the cost of his secondary weapons. Active scanning requiring cooperation is much more interesting than a passive omnipresent ability.
the only reason i could think of fighting a MT is bunnyhopping in NS1 or a total rush with skulks or a fade
well that is that and this is this
knowing NS2 will unlikely to has bunny-hopping so i suggest improve it or create a new technology ~
like no MT just only ST; which is Sound tracking.
or something like an mobile MT ( what i mean is you buy it likes HMG or Shotgun) it is a weapon where 1 marine has to hold it up to use it and people around him within number of radius can see
cheersssssssssss
The only real issue I see with MT is that it constantly gives "vision" of the entire map, negating the Alien mobility advantage when combined with phase gates. This could be solved by just reducing MT to an area effect around Marines.
Essentially just turn it into a marine sensory chamber.
So here is the new balancing:
- Observatory would give permanent MT on the Marine's HUD and Map while the enemy is in range of the OBS, regardless of where the Marine is currently (read those words carefully). (Something like the size of Tanith DBL RES, but slightly smaller.)
- Scans would be cheaper. (If NS2 OBS has 100 Energy, then scans cost 20/15 energy, instead of 25 energy.)
- When the enemy is not in range of an OBS, then MT is only activated by walking/crouch-walking/standing still/ducking on the Marine's HUD (so basically when not running or jumping). Also enemies do not appear on the Map when they are not in range of a OBS, for Non-Marine Commanders.
- Swimming disables MT unless OBS is present.
- If enemy is walking/crouch-walking/standing still/ducking while they are not in the range of an OBS, then they are not detected by MT.
- Dynamic Infestation disables MT. Or it can be made so that only the Marine Commander sees enemies, and MT only updates every 5 seconds.
*****
- MT is directional in relation to Marine HUD to Commander view. Meaning the Marine Commander will only have enemies show up on his Map (when Marines are not in OBS range) if they are looking in the direction of the enemy.
- MT updates every 2/1.5 seconds normally while enemy is not in range of OBS (OBS gives no delay when enemy is in range).
- Starting energy for OBS is 25.
- RES cost?: I'd go with 30 RES for researching MT, and 15 RES for OBS (assuming Marine RES model doesn't change much from NS1).
*****
Please leave comments on what is unclear and what could be worded better. Also if I did miss any scenarios in regards to MT, please list them as well.
Would be nice to see the NS2 DEVs' stance on MT currently, if the time does permit.
(I hope there is enough new PROs and CONs to achieve that golden balance.)