A skulk's lament
Mortos
Join Date: 2006-11-28 Member: 58763Members
Join Date: 2006-11-28 Member: 58763Members
<div class="IPBDescription">the end of the ambush class</div>With NS 2 just around the corner I felt it was time to log on and to toss my thoughts about the skulk into the chaotic void that is the suggestion forum and see if they catch on.
I've been an NS player for a long time, and I remember in the days when marines had to move cautiously down hallways, checking in dark corners, watching for the slightest hint of movement, or listening for that familiar 'tick tick tick' on the ground that signaled an approaching skulk.
These were the days when clever skulks could slip around marine defenses to attack targets behind the defensive line, where skulks could set ambushes, dropping on unwary marines...
The game has since progressed away from that. With the advent of motion tracking, it became difficult to set up an ambush or sneak up on the unwary. With such a crucial feature missing, they had to implement cloaking to allow skulks to continue their role as ambushers. Suddenly skulks could ambush someone by standing in the middle of a brightly lit hallway. No amount of wariness on the part of the marines can see a skulk who is cloaked, and the cool hiding places and dark corners of the map suddenly are wasted.
There also came electricity and the beefing of static defenses, making it possible to protect equipment from rogue skulks indefinitely.
What I've seen here is a trend away from the roots of the game, abandoning the atmosphere and skill set for bright and shiny new abilities. Now, before you attack this, I realize that all these abilities have to be paid for, and there are trade offs for that; but Im suggesting that these should not have been options in the game to begin with. That motion tracking and cloaking (at least, the 100% cloaking) completely change the dynamic of the game. Any upgrade or ability that removes the feel of the oppressive, dangerous environment, and the fear of the skulk that may be lurking around the next corner, removes some of the fun that made this game so great to begin with.
After a quick read through of these forums, I see that I'm hardly the only person who thinks these abilities need to be changed in the new NS. We need to focus on altering these abilities in such as way that they add to the fun and atmosphere, instead of detracting from it. Maybe a motion tracking that only picks up larger aliens, or one that lets you know when an alien is close, but not where they are. Maybe just change cloaking back to 50% transparency, or maybe a skin color darkening when you are in shadows. I'm not saying we need to take them out entirely, but they need to be done differently than they currently are, or else the skulk will just become a boring scout class, and the game will be entirely different, and, in my opinion, much less fun.
Feel free to point out and nitpick everything I got wrong, but I hope people at least consider what merit there is in this, and I hope to see the new game picking up on this feeling for the new skulk abilities.
I've been an NS player for a long time, and I remember in the days when marines had to move cautiously down hallways, checking in dark corners, watching for the slightest hint of movement, or listening for that familiar 'tick tick tick' on the ground that signaled an approaching skulk.
These were the days when clever skulks could slip around marine defenses to attack targets behind the defensive line, where skulks could set ambushes, dropping on unwary marines...
The game has since progressed away from that. With the advent of motion tracking, it became difficult to set up an ambush or sneak up on the unwary. With such a crucial feature missing, they had to implement cloaking to allow skulks to continue their role as ambushers. Suddenly skulks could ambush someone by standing in the middle of a brightly lit hallway. No amount of wariness on the part of the marines can see a skulk who is cloaked, and the cool hiding places and dark corners of the map suddenly are wasted.
There also came electricity and the beefing of static defenses, making it possible to protect equipment from rogue skulks indefinitely.
What I've seen here is a trend away from the roots of the game, abandoning the atmosphere and skill set for bright and shiny new abilities. Now, before you attack this, I realize that all these abilities have to be paid for, and there are trade offs for that; but Im suggesting that these should not have been options in the game to begin with. That motion tracking and cloaking (at least, the 100% cloaking) completely change the dynamic of the game. Any upgrade or ability that removes the feel of the oppressive, dangerous environment, and the fear of the skulk that may be lurking around the next corner, removes some of the fun that made this game so great to begin with.
After a quick read through of these forums, I see that I'm hardly the only person who thinks these abilities need to be changed in the new NS. We need to focus on altering these abilities in such as way that they add to the fun and atmosphere, instead of detracting from it. Maybe a motion tracking that only picks up larger aliens, or one that lets you know when an alien is close, but not where they are. Maybe just change cloaking back to 50% transparency, or maybe a skin color darkening when you are in shadows. I'm not saying we need to take them out entirely, but they need to be done differently than they currently are, or else the skulk will just become a boring scout class, and the game will be entirely different, and, in my opinion, much less fun.
Feel free to point out and nitpick everything I got wrong, but I hope people at least consider what merit there is in this, and I hope to see the new game picking up on this feeling for the new skulk abilities.
Comments
I really wouldn't worry, I see great promise in what's to come. As the UWE team has mentioned, NS2 has a very different gameplay style compared to NS1, and that NS2 is not a remake of NS1 but the progression since then.
NS2 may completely change the perception of the Skulk, especially with the change to overall game play mechanics, but it will still be a low tiered unit.
But I agree, ambushing needs to be incorporated in the right way. Unfortunately doing it with graphical perception just doesn't work because of hardware differences and gamma. It needs to be accomplished through other methods. That's why cloaking is still a viable potential solution.
So if the skulk is an effective ambusher, it's up to the commander to change the upgrades. In theory, the commander could make any life-form an ambusher if he sets the upgrades right.
Having said that... I do think the skulk should be able to be set as an effective ambushing unit if the commander so chooses.
Don't forget about the Infestation either. I bet that will be a big advantage to the skulk to use as camoflage...
I think it would be great if the skulk had some sort of infestation on his back so that he could blend in with the infestation on the floor, walls or ceiling.
i would love to see that fear come back in the game! it used to be this long cat and mouse game where everyone was listening intently, sneaking around and getting ambushed for 2 hours, your heart pounding the whole time! i dont want to lose that sense of vulnerability and weight of death (ie: losing upgrades)
seeing that you actually scared people was the most satifying thing in the world for me!
(this may go contrary to the OP...but its still a funny story:P):
i was cloaking down a hallway as an onos while a marine was running towards me. he bumped into me, tried to go to the side for a split second untill i uncloaked and then proceeded to jump and fire in a crazy random spread all around me before he could refocus himself and aim at me, befroe i quickly gored him to death. the point is, i imagine the only explanation for his erratic spraying was that he was so scared at seeing me he physically spazzed out at his computer, mashing everything involuntarily!
right. so the point is, more skill based sneaking, less ability based mechanisms that neutralize player skill and take away the iminent possibility of death lurking around every corner. its the UNKNOWN that we're afraid of! not the "two skulks in the corner."
but, that will never really change. as long as the maps stay the same, the hiding spots will too.
The only ways I could see the game getting more "dynamic" on that aspect, is if the MAPS became more dynamic.
somehow changing where the skulks could change their hiding spots as THEY change.
so I believe that's where the whole "power grid" idea comes in, the areas that are held, are most likely going to benefit whoever is holding them.
so, I don't know atm, but the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm liking that idea.
RUSH THE RTS!!!!.... lights out.
but, that will never really change. as long as the maps stay the same, the hiding spots will too.
The only ways I could see the game getting more "dynamic" on that aspect, is if the MAPS became more dynamic.
somehow changing where the skulks could change their hiding spots as THEY change.
so I believe that's where the whole "power grid" idea comes in, the areas that are held, are most likely going to benefit whoever is holding them.
so, I don't know atm, but the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm liking that idea.
RUSH THE RTS!!!!.... lights out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've mentioned this a dozen times, but here it goes again.
Skulk has got a huge amount of potential hiding/ambush spots in almost every map. They just require bhop/movement control to be used efficiently. If NS2 manages to create an accessible movement system, the average skulk suddenly gets a lot more options.
But ofcourse it might get boring to just stand and wait for enemies to approach so perhaps skulks could have a ability that made the Infestation grow where they walk for a few seconds with a long cooldown before usable again and ofcourse the infested area should disappear over some time.
This might sound too unbalanced, but any average player would easily notice that something is very wrong when they see a infected area in middle of their base.
Somewhat true. However I think the OP still has a point that cloaking an MT dumb down and severely limit ambushing respectively.
I would like to mention to the OP that you can still sneak up on marines, especially now because the only players left either bhop or fail at bhop. "Lie in wait" style ambushes have become "unexpected" again.
<!--quoteo(post=1716793:date=Jul 10 2009, 07:43 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Jul 10 2009, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1716793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I agree, ambushing needs to be incorporated in the right way. Unfortunately doing it with graphical perception just doesn't work because of hardware differences and gamma. It needs to be accomplished through other methods. That's why cloaking is still a viable potential solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The OP's point is that this requires a lot less skill. Instead of having to outguessing your opponent you're simply invisible. I hadn't thought of it this way before, but it is true. I wonder if light effects could be implemented in a way to prevent gamma adjustments from rendering them useless. People complain about darkness on maps, but at least it's better than players being completely invisible.
<!--quoteo(post=1717097:date=Jul 13 2009, 05:27 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 13 2009, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk has got a huge amount of potential hiding/ambush spots in almost every map. They just require bhop/movement control to be used efficiently. If NS2 manages to create an accessible movement system, the average skulk suddenly gets a lot more options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I just wonder if there's any way to convince the average player that this movement skill is not meant to be used head on.
I like the cut of your jib <b>mortos</b>, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. I think we have a similar gameplay style, and I also want to see the true ambush play a more prominent role. It's worth mentioning, however, that this is not the only play style possible in NS and removing MT and/or cloaking would make the game considerably harder for new players on both sides.
I'm in favor of ambushing role for aliens, but the mechanic has to change! I think a chameleon style environment matching would be perfect. The cunning player can blend in to suitable textures without being completely invisible. Or the effect will be so close that the marine only notices the alien is there because of the way something doesn't look quite right, or moves slightly. Better yet might be the "water" texture used in Half-life2. A water texture could be applied to a player model that would make the player transparent, but would distort the image behind them in the same way as The Predator camouflage did. Looking straight on without movement of either party would reveal nothing... it's not until you get that slight distortion noticible because your view changed or they moved that you catch on something is there. Again, this "water person" effect was available in the HL2 source engine and demonstrated pre-release, but never used in game. So the technique has been available for.... 5 years? I think our PC's can handle it.
Then the marines don't really need motion tracking. The most cunning skulk only has options based on map design, where the marines are in relation to him, and maybe lighting conditions. If this is STILL unbalances the game, then I suggest the solution is a personal sonar. Like a commander ping except it's per player, only effects life-forms in the visible area (no around corners), and doesn't disable cloaking, but at least gives the marine a chance to spot the enemy lying in waiting (Perhaps by something as subtle as a shimmer or wobble of the cloak effect). Each player has one ping per charge, takes 30 seconds to recharge... meaning that a marine having an advantage in one room, has to stay in that room until it recharges, or move into the next room with a disadvantage for 30 seconds.
I think OBs can still display a radius of movement around it's vicinity in the hud and map, but having MT show the whole level is an advantage to the marines that the aliens don't have. Apples to Oranges, this still isn't fair.
The present system has got such an awesome decisionmaking and mindgame system that can't see the chameleon style ambushing easily replacing it without some brilliant ideas. Until someone comes up with some concrete ideas of the chameleon implementation, I'm definitely in favour of making the old system more accessible and tuning it to get even more out of it.
The chameleon style doesn't for example have that many exposure-route-position tradeoffs and it doesn't have that many ways of stalling, faking and baiting by default, not at least the way I see it. I also fail to see how the chameleon style skulking allows an experienced and skilled skulk to stand out from the average skulks.
The chameleon style doesn't for example have that many exposure-route-position tradeoffs and it doesn't have that many ways of stalling, faking and baiting by default, not at least the way I see it. I also fail to see how the chameleon style skulking allows an experienced and skilled skulk to stand out from the average skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously underestimate chameleon style - its like in NS1, you can tell the difference from an experienced skulk and an average skulk. And you're mistaken - with chameleon style there will probably be more ways of faking and baiting, but it would require players who knows what their doing and players who are good teamplayers.
Huh? I don't see it; I think you're going to have to give some examples how faking and baiting become better with semi-transparent vs fully transparent.
Of course with those earlier revisions were always fatal flaws that took time to reach their full lethality, and ended in matches consisting of exactly ONE strategy for each team, and deviation resulting in derision from fellow teammates (even if it was the wrong strategy :D).
I would like to see a return to the more strategy oriented NS though, even though it is the anathema of many who play this game.
It wasn't all bad though. The maps just kept getting more awesome! Here's to more of that. :beer:
I still fail to see how. Some concrete examples and arguments would be nice.
This post is all about methods of being "unseen" without being invisible, while still giving the enemy a clue that you're there without having to introduce the game changing "Motion Tracking". Pics for the easiest solution included.
Current style of cloaking is pure opacity level. That's fine... 100% transparancy is invisible, but 90% transparency isn't fooling anyone. Sure it's "see through", but it's also clearly an object in the shape of a skulk! Therefore in game it's very "all or nothing". Only total transparancy is worth leveraging, and only motion tracking is a suitable defence. Everyone is as equally invisible as everyone else... in a fully lit hallway as well as the darkly lit corner of a room.
Texture Mimicry (chameleon) is an aleternative concept that would, implimented right, fool the opposition in to not noticing you... even though they litterally are looking AT you. It's a different approach that solves some issues (while causing others, like how do you do that?).
My favourite stealth solution is still the refracting transparency effect demostrated in the HL2 technology demo. You are 100% transparent (like NS1), but your presence is noticible (because your body is distorting the image behind you <a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_O3F0fH5AGXQ/SKTZwzoUZhI/AAAAAAAADNg/ZE_HcULaUrw/s400/predator+invisible_light-bending+cloaker.jpg" target="_blank">like The Predator</a>. The typical light refraction effect based on transparent objects is similar to that image but more when still, except when the camera moves around the transparent object, you can make out the presence of something there. (In <a href="http://www.theinquirer.net/img/9178/DirectX-Comparison--style--border--2px-solid---width--300px--height--244px-.jpg?1241332133" target="_blank">this</a> image, the bottom middle and bottom right images have a transparent person standing in front of fire. Without movement you can barely see anything... when the camera, player, or background moves, you can see something glassy is there. The effect of a skulk cloaked in this way moving between rooms would be great. If your view is moving as the skulk is moving, you might not notice anything at all. You would have to disable cloak as normal when attacking of course.
Is this approaches doable? Definately! (Assuming the engine is comparable to source) Would it be convincing? Absolutely. Is it better than just setting a transparency level? Totally! It has the advantage of total transparency while displaying SOMETHING for the marine to have a chance to spot you... The keen observer will be looking for minor inconsistancies with every texture and shadow. The skilled skulk will be looking for places that don't give any clues to the opposition.
Texture Mimicry could work as simple as applying the texture you are near to your creature model. I can see that failing a lot. The alternative would be creating textures on the fly.
Method one: Skulk player has "camo" ability. Finding a suitable place, the skulk looks at the direction he thinks the marines will come in, and presses his camo button. The game (And this happens client side on all clients) snaps the "image" of where the skulk is from the direction the skulk is looking in without the skulk showing, and applies that to the skulk model from the front. The effect would be that anyone standing exactly where the player is looking would not be able to see the player, effectively 100% invisible. However, if the skulk moves, the image will not line up as well, and he risks giving his position away. Also, a player looking from the side or behind will be seeing the texure applied completely wrong, so the skulk will stand out big time. It's no longer "Hey if I don't move you can't see me!", it's now "Hey, if I use this right, you won't even notice I'm here till you step on my face". It's then all about cunning and skill and situational awareness. You learn where camo works and where it doesn't.
Another option is the skulk takes position, presses "cloak", and the game takes a panaramic view of the surrounding area, flips it inside out, and applies it to the skulk model. In theory, the left side of the skulk looks like blue wall, the top of the skulk looks like gridded floor, and etc all around the skulk. It's not going to be a perfect fit, but enough to blend in. A skilled player will avoid (or use) bright lights, sharp lines and symmetry, and stick to more ambiguous/organic texutres. Also, no need to disable "cloaking" when moving... because a lime green skulk who forgot to change will stand out in a red room.
Are these approaches doable? Definately! Would they be convincing? I'm not sure, maybe no, maybe yes. Are they better than just setting a transparency level? It's different. I don't think it would be as effective as trasparency for the aliens, but it gives marines a chance to spot the enemy.
This doesn't answer the question. It would look cool, but how would it improve the game and be better than cloaking as we have it now?
Umm.... "is all about methods of being "unseen" without being invisible, while still giving the enemy a clue that you're there without having to introduce the game changing "Motion Tracking"
Neither of the above alternatives are ALL ON or ALL OFF. Their effectiveness is up to the placement of the hider, the alertness of the observer, and the movement of both players. You can be hidden well enough that you won't be noticed, but not so well that you will always be invisible, because there will be visual clues as to the presense of the enemy (Visual clues that don't include a 90% translucent image of a skulk that is clearly a players model trying to hide, which screams to the marine "HAHA I THINK YOU CAN'T SEE ME", which is worse than nothing at all)
THUS.... these methods of hiding yourself should never be 100% effective 100% of the time, and the counter to both of the cloaking techniques is alertness, observation, and getting used to spotting textures that are "not quite right".
Currently if an alien is cloaked in the next room, there is no point in me being careful, because there's nothing to see. 100% effective. However if an alien is in the next room and I have motion tracking, not only do I have a good idea where he stopped moving (IE what corner he is hiding in), HE thinks I don't know he's there. By the time he realizes I know where he is and I'm shooting him... he's dead. In essense.... 0% effective. Everyone knows once marines have MT, cloaking is a waste of res... go focus instead.
Marine train of thought without MT: "Dum dee dum... walking down the hallway... wonder if there are any skulks in here.... Oh I'm dead! Guess there was! MT COMM"
Marine train of thought MT: "Woo Hoo! Know I know where you all are all the time! Your SC chambers won't save you now!"
Well i never mentioned semi-transparent dno where u got that from - my idea was if skulk gets 100% invisible when standing on infested areas, not moving on infested areas but when moving he gets slighty visible till he stops moving if the skulk is still on infested area that is - and with this a ability to create infested areas for ??? amount of time with a nice cd to balance it, with this you could easily trick the average enemy marine into deadly traps.
Example could be your a skulk and you see this enemy marine, you lure him around a corner and use your ability before he gets around it - he cant see you and maybe he goes back or he stays and wait for you to move (or move forward but that would seem pretty dumb to me, it would be pure suicide in most scenarios) if he goes back he turns his back to you giving you the advantage (first hit) or he stays and wait for you to move which gives your teammates time to arrive and help you out.
As a cloaking replacement I don't see it impossible, although I can't see it being that viable either. Most likely some graphical tweaks will also affect the visibility.
I'd also like to ask an open question; Do you want to get rid of the 100% transparency cloak because you can't play against it? You can't comm against it or do you play on noobservers where no comm can play against it? Speaking for myself I find SC/Cloak (and MT) highly enjoyable gameplay elements in their current form.
Edit: Oh, and MT isn't a "direct counter" to cloak. Observatories and scans are. ... rofl.
Not... quite. In the early revisions, MT was entirely broken on certain types of servers. It added a lot of atmosphere not to have glowing 'shoot here' circles, and was a sad day for me when it was 'fixed'. Alternates were attempted; top-down minimap MT almost worked, but there was a lot of outcry from certain players when it gave away ambushes from behind.
<ul><li> Activated by player</li><li> Uses cloak bar like now or uses adrenaline</li><li> Cloaking and de-cloaking occur immediately</li><li> Can stay cloaked indefinitely when standing still </li><li> Moving players can only cloak for ~2.5 secs max</li><li> Goal is to make it usable in battle, but not multiple times in the same battle</li></ul>
I'd also like to ask an open question; Do you want to get rid of the 100% transparency cloak because you can't play against it? You can't comm against it or do you play on noobservers where no comm can play against it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, either you have trouble with basic comprehension or maybe trouble paying attention... but no... as people keep saying in this thread... the element of stealth that was enjoyable for BOTH teams years ago has been removed with a SC/MT game of rock/paper
I don't see terrible ideas... I see a lack of imagination
Still that wasn't exactly a feature.
<ul><li> Activated by player</li><li> Uses cloak bar like now or uses adrenaline</li><li> Cloaking and de-cloaking occur immediately</li><li> Can stay cloaked indefinitely when standing still </li><li> Moving players can only cloak for ~2.5 secs max</li><li> Goal is to make it usable in battle, but not multiple times in the same battle</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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