Fanbase feedback and YOU!

linfosoma · July 2009

<div class="IPBDescription">Does listening to your consumers can ruin your projects?</div>HereÂ´s an old article on the escapist magazine website which I find interesting:
<a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_72/416-Youre-Wrong" target="_blank">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/v...416-Youre-Wrong</a>

If you dont feel like reading it (you should try and read it anyway), the arcticle talks about how developers that listen to their community ends up ruinning the game because they stray away from their main goal to please what in reality is just a very small percentage of their costumers.

This is related to both the pistol/taser thing and the heavy armor.

So what do you think?
Does listening to your fanbase is any good or should you just take the risk and keep on working on your main idea in order to provide a "pure" experience?

Triggerman · July 2009

...I think this article is correct. I'm not fond of the taser particularly myself but you guys should stick to what's innovative for you... I feel like such a hypocrite but it's most likely what is going to make your game excellent. Some development should be affected by the community but when it comes to such an important decision as the weapon I think the ball is in the developers court whether this idea floats or sinks. It certainly brings another aspect of teamplay into the game, and that's not a bad thing.
Bugs and in general overlooked flaws or ideas that are actually great is what the playerbase should provide with, shooting down innovation, complaining about how things are going to get so much worse and the usual "I'll quit if this change goes through" is just irrelevant and should be ignored/discarded as the article says.

Thanks for the post, and hope you make a rational decision yourselves, Unknown Worlds.

Zamma · July 2009

I do agree partially with this. But you also have to remember; the devs themselves aren't hardcore gamers (to what I know) and thus have less ingame experience than many players in the community. Therefore seeking advice and listening to the community can also serve as a MASSIVE plus. While this isn't always the case, I do feel it's about getting a balance.

As far as the taser goes also (and this is very important), they were not trying to change gameplay by adding a taser, but instead finding an easier solution to replacing two weapons with one. The point? None. Just less worse. This is a perfect example where listening to the community is a good thing. The pistol and knife combo does the job and it's simple. There are no balancing complications or any others (bugs with electricity effects, bugs with how the weapon works). In my eyes adding a taser was the cheaper/lazy option and it was also a slightly niave and risky choice. I hope they do opt for the pistol/knife approach. HOWEVER, like all my posts, it's hard for us to comment without seeing the game, but we can only give opinions.

For heavy armours; I'm not too bothered to see HA's in or out. They were a core part of NS gameplay but maybe aren't needed in NS2? BUT they are a nice kind of "cool-aspect-thing" that alot of players will be attracted to. All (subjective) teenage kids just want to run around in a big metal hull charging through infestation dominating aliens. But this is different from the Taser argument because UWE are either having it in or not, they aren't replacing anything. I would rather have it in because I feel it's nice having jetpacks as a movement tech and heavies as a defence/team push tech. But I'm more happy that the devs made their own call on this compared to the taser.

My input atleast.

spellman23 · July 2009

At the end of the day, the devs have the vision and the whole picture in view.

On the other other, you've got a small, vocal group of individuals who are extremely passionate about your game.

Frankly, I'd side with the devs in terms of doing better game design and development. Sure there should be some input, and the community often brainstorms some interesting ideas, but at the end of the day you can't please all your diverse fans so just swing with both fists and stick to your guns.

Zamma · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 27 2009, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>At the end of the day, the devs have the vision and the whole picture in view.

On the other other, you've got a small, vocal group of individuals who are extremely passionate about your game.

Frankly, I'd side with the devs in terms of doing better game design and development. Sure there should be some input, and the community often brainstorms some interesting ideas, but at the end of the day you can't please all your diverse fans so just swing with both fists and stick to your guns.</div>

In fairness, it's not always just a "small vocal group", it's also notably a "largish vocal group".

Also as stated, the vocal group also generally tends to have more ingame experience then the devs and know how games play. OFC this doesn't mean the devs should unwillingly let us make the game for them, but still, they should take all critism and feedback onboard and try and integrate it into their plans.

Say you have two groups of people; group A have a great plan for a game and group B have played lots of games and know what works and what makes a game fun and interesting (leave balance aside completely)
If group A made the game, it would be good, but maybe it would lack in a certain aspect.
If group B made a game, it would have no direction but it would have certain aspects which would be nice.
Mix the two groups together effectively and you create a perfect game.

Sure this is near impossible in reality, but I do like the fact the devs are trying to fit this in to their plans. Aslong as they are sensible with what they listen to, and aslong as they stick to their plan thoroughly. We are safe.

niaccurshi · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zamma @ Jul 27 2009, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Say you have two groups of people; group A have a great plan for a game and group B have played lots of games and know what works and what makes a game fun and interesting (leave balance aside completely)</div>

This would be a great statement, if it weren't for the fact that Group B do *not* know what works, they simply know what they like and what works *for them*.

I absolutely adore the idea that the team that made NS1, one of the greatest modifications of Half Life ever, are now being tarred with the same sort of brush that first time developers and soulless production houses get smeared with.

I'm all for the criticism, all for the feedback, and the fact we all get involved in this process is a testament to just how much the devs are willing to learn and re-evaluate...but this kind of talk, the pigeon-holing being made here...it's just plain disrespectful.

I'm not 100% behind this taser idea, I loved the pistol and knife, but I also saw it's overpowered nature. What I am is 100% behind a team doing what they see as fitting in to THEIR game as they see fit, especially given they clearly do take stuff on board. What is disappointing is the idea that they've spent time (and money) on moving down this path and rather than take some of the constructive and well thought out criticisms they're instead thinking about listening to a relatively small number of their potential player base and their whining about how they don't have "something gritty and simple like a knife" and that they've lost "the only real effective long range weapon" without waiting to see what the rest of the balanced line up of weaponry is.

Have some balls, UWE, listen to ideas from us and see if they make sense in adapting your plan in line with what YOU intended. Despite hyperbole by those like Zamma here, Group B largely knows ###### about what is commercially viable.

linfosoma · July 2009

Well, while I agree with most of you I still want to feel that what IÂ´ve purchased is UWEÂ´s vision of NS2 and not the communityÂ´s vision.
If all goes wrong, the game can still be modded so I want to see what they are able to throw at us :)

Delphic · July 2009

I agree with Zamma. Whilst listening to the trolls and those that just want the game graphically updated (even if that's not what they say they are / want) is an extremely effective way of ruining a game, I think with this taser thing, there's a proportion of the more balanced fan base that has objections on it's place in the NS universe and game play alterations. It's the devs game and they should do what they think is right, but 'closing your ears' when people are making legitimate points isn't really doing what you think is right but doing what you thought was right the first time you went through it... most products are iteratively designed these days to some degree aren't they?

So in summary they should take what the feedback community gives (which they asked for) with a large pinch of salt and then if swayed by particular logic perhaps change, but not change if they feel they their solution still seems right but they don't want the fans to cry!

Mr. Epic · July 2009

I agree that it really is up to the devs, and that listening to the vocal elements of the "community" is discretionary. I think there is something else at the heart of the issue though, and its that since the game has gone pre-order people expect to get what they expected at the time of purchase. At the time of purchase, there was and still is so little info that expectations are really closer to NS1 than anything NS2 is or will become. Because they think they may be getting something that wasn't promised or expected at the time of purchase, people will try to prevent the implementation of something that may have been intended all along. The solution to this problem is clearly either:
- keep quiet until something is implemented
- tell people and let them decide it

I think in this case as I did when I first read about the concept that it is an interesting idea- it could be a really interesting gimmick/mechanic/whatever for ns2. That said, it is also a risky proposition... and the manner of its presentation tells me that you guys aren't or weren't sure about it, that it wasn't or isn't far along in its conception, and that you were sort of asking us to tell you not to do it. I'm pretty sure if you posted the same sort of thing about the NS2 engine- eg: keep it on source (which might make it more difficult, etc...) or move to an untested new engine that isn't designed yet people would clamor for source and say you guys were crazy. I'm glad you kept quiet and then presented the whole thing after you guys were already committed and it was the right thing to do.

So, how do you guys approach this? Tell us its moving to the back burner and in a month show us an awesome in-game implementation? Or do you say pistol/knife it is and when presented have an equally vocal part of the community say "Wow these guys spent how many years on a new knife and pistol model?" ?

whocareswc · July 2009

Im glad someone started this thread because i was going to.

i dont want to play NS1 , having similar / the same things. i want to play NS2. with new ideas.

your see this all the time with games. COD, DOD, CS. there is always whingers that complain that its not the same as the other game. this is because they liked being good at the old game and cant handle loosing in the new one.

i personally like learning new weapons and strategies.. it makes a game worth playing.

so IMO do what you want, and if it doesnt work you have BETA to remove it or add it. that is the point of BETA.

Thaldarin · July 2009

Try playing NS1 it will give you a bit of a perspective on the whole style and scene. Also some fun in the short-term ;)

enfurno · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (linfosoma @ Jul 27 2009, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>HereÂ´s an old article on the escapist magazine website which I find interesting:
<a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_72/416-Youre-Wrong" target="_blank">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/v...416-Youre-Wrong</a>

If you dont feel like reading it (you should try and read it anyway), the arcticle talks about how developers that listen to their community ends up ruinning the game because they stray away from their main goal to please what in reality is just a very small percentage of their costumers.

This is related to both the pistol/taser thing and the heavy armor.

So what do you think?
Does listening to your fanbase is any good or should you just take the risk and keep on working on your main idea in order to provide a "pure" experience?</div>

As far as aesthetics and ambiance I don't think it can do anything vital to harm a game taking tips from the community. Now tweaking mechanics can have some major downfalls. Personally I've never met these "need a dual function backup weapon" people in game so did they just play once, decide that the pistol wasn't like the one in halo, and start ranting about it? Sure it could be better but the alternative sounds really crappy.

That being said, I appreciate that UWE is taking the time to listen to us and so far it seems that they are taking key points and building on those to make a better experience for those of us who will play NS2 for years and years to come. Thank you for listening guys.

noncomposmentis · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zamma @ Jul 27 2009, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I do agree partially with this. But you also have to remember; the devs themselves aren't hardcore gamers (to what I know) and thus have less ingame experience than many players in the community. Therefore seeking advice and listening to the community can also serve as a MASSIVE plus.</div>
Even if the devs aren't hardcore gamers (not a point I would agree with--although I do submit that Charlie was always pretty terrible at his own game :D), that doesn't make the people that are good at the game valuable advisors. Thinking back to the community during NS1, in almost every case, the debate would focus around two opposing positions, both advocating big changes (or one advocating status quo and the other advocating a big change) when it turned out a tiny tweak was all that was necessary to bring delicious harmony and balance. Opposition to their "foes" on the boards blinded them to sensible moderation, which almost always ends up being the best choice in the end.

I'm not calling the people on this board idiots. When people argue in general, they usually argue to win, not to achieve the truth, and to win you need a loser, hence the false dichotomy develops, again and again. Well, I don't think I'm being very clear about this today but I hope my meaning gets across.

Vi3trice · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Jul 27 2009, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Well, I don't think I'm being very clear about this today but I hope my meaning gets across.</div>

What's right for one, isn't for another. You can't add in something to cope with one side because in the end it's going to conflict with the other side.

That's as much as I can explain it. :/

Avata · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (niaccurshi @ Jul 27 2009, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm all for the criticism, all for the feedback, and the fact we all get involved in this process is a testament to just how much the devs are willing to learn and re-evaluate...</div>

And

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (niaccurshi @ Jul 27 2009, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not 100% behind this taser idea, I loved the pistol and knife, but I also saw it's overpowered nature. What I am is 100% behind a team doing what they see as fitting in to THEIR game as they see fit, especially given they clearly do take stuff on board.</div>

/agree +1

To the devs I say "Ignore any and all short sighted lack of imagination from everyone, especially players, and only take input from the player base that <b>adds</b> to your ideas and momentum... /dump everything that detracts."

If you take notice of everyone that says "NO DON'T CHANGE IT... THAT'S UNBALANCED/######", then we'll just be playing NS1 in a new engine. I for one will not be happy with the same old same old, no matter how pretty it is.

Shake it up, give us something unique. That's what you're good at.

BadMouth · July 2009

Let us work with the assumption that UWE is a competent game designing company. And now, let us work with the fact, and I do meant fact, that none of people on this forum have used any of the features in NS2 or played the game itself or seen in-game footage. To take any opinion from the player community at this point would be pointless, unless, there is a 100% "no" vote from the players and that number is pretty huge.

Players would be useful when the game is released. Then they would be able to find bugs, offer improvements and such. But before that, they are like the crazy noisy voices in your head and you should just ignore them.

ljcrabs · July 2009

Naturally the designers need to look at what about the design is good/flawed, not just the tone and weight of the response. However, I agree with the article in that you have to have your own vision and not just react to feedback from players.

trinity.ns · July 2009

"Developers must learn to stick to their guns and see their visions through.", i like that quote

"Wow you guys have very strong opinions about the taser weapon. We are strongly considering replacing it with the vanilla knife/pistol. #fb", and i don't like this one

Shzar · July 2009

Ha, while reading this thread I was watching Stephen Colbert discuss Tasers and police brutality. Such delicious convergence.

I like the way this thread is going. People are talking very reasonably and calmly, and it's pleasing to read so far, whereas the blog post discussion thread got pretty ugly in places. People just need to remember that nobody has used the new weapon yet, and there aren't too many things people can legitimately criticize yet, just a single concept art piece and a few none-too-detailed hints on how it might work. I hope the developers implement it; I look forward to playing with it, and I'm sure it'll all be good and wonderful once we get to use it and can make informed criticisms, rather than all the panicked speculation that's been going on.

Kudos to the developers for tilling new soil on this one. It'll all work out in the end.

TWiTCHZOR · July 2009

To UWE
Paper is OP an needs a nerf, Scissors are fine.
tyvm from Rock :P

Seriously now, stay true to your vision please UWE, I payed $40 for YOUR game

Daworm · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TWiTCHZOR @ Jul 28 2009, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Seriously now, stay true to your vision please UWE, I payed $40 for YOUR game</div>
AGREED! If it's bad, let's find out during alpha!

I'm going to copy an earlier post into this on the knife/pistol -> taser? type weapon topic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (myself >.<)</div><div class='quotemain'>90 - Neutral
47 - Positive
36 - Negative

Total = 173

There are a few posts not counted for not contributing anything either way (and completely random merely talking about mines and how they should work)

<b>To clarify how I get these numbers, I do a two-step process.</b>
I boil it down to a simple question: ""Is the taser I good idea for NS2?""
* Yes
* No
* Unsure

From there if the user has put more than "I like this idea, bring it on UWE" or similar comments I'll expand the view into the rest of their post based on their keypoints.

Commonly this revolves around: "This is good! But I don't like how you describe it's function, why not try this?" type of posts

Majority of Unsure posters are holding judgement till they get to see it in-game play, and a few of them like the idea of the taser but would prefer it as an "optional" extra to the knife and/or pistol (<b><i>note: not always both</i></b>)

There are 4-5 positive posters that slid into the unsure category based on successive posts and/or large posts with concerns over how it will fit into the gameplay and be fitting enough to not seem like a "we did it cause we can" kind of weapon.

Some negative posters revolved around "don't take my blankie" type retorts. IE: They had it in NS1, so it should stay in NS2.
A couplle almost slid to Unsure but said they didn't want taser, but a rework of the pistol with a different alternative melee option available (<i>bashing with the lmg/hmg for example</i>)</div>

Now I'm taking 20 pages of posts and trimming it down as much as I can but trying to keep the general "essence" of it.
I myself fall into the unsure category. I like the concept, I want to see it in Alpha. Heck I had this idea (of a sort) on <b>custom NS1 servers</b> that had it as a manual upgrade and it didn't break game-play then, even on custom servers!
<span style="color:#212121"><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">page claim</span></span>

steppin'razor · July 2009

Well written article, this is the exact reason why I hope ideas like the taser don't get dropped on announcement.

Tom Hoen · July 2009

<b>So what do you think?
Does listening to your fanbase is any good or should you just take the risk and keep on working on your main idea in order to provide a "pure" experience?</b>

They should ignore all feedback coming here until alpha or beta is ready. We simply can't know how taser will work in game ( I love taser idea more than knife and pistol). Also I think they thought removing heavy because Onos lost his devour ability. We can't flame things which we don't even know about. Our problem is that hardcore players try to add these new information releases to the old NS1. Progress is good! There wouldn't be anything new in the world if every developer would listen their hardcore players. (Actually there wouldn't be anything new in anything if innovators would listen their customers.)

This article hits the right spot. UWE should read this and ignore hardcore players and do what their instinct says.

niaccurshi · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom Hoen @ Jul 28 2009, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Our problem is that hardcore players try to add these new information releases to the old NS1. Progress is good! There wouldn't be anything new in the world if every developer would listen their hardcore players. (Actually there wouldn't be anything new in anything if innovators would listen their customers.)</div>

I consider myself a low level hard core player when it comes to games. I devote a huge amount of time to the ones that are currently in my good books, and while NS1 was my game of choice (for a good few years) I would tend to spend most of my free time playing it. I say this not to start a bragging war (people will have played more than I, they will have shown more commitment than I, and they'll have kept NS1 as their game of choice for longer), but because there are tremendous amounts of players that (even if lacking certain skills to accomplish the top of their game) understand the game completely and how it was to be played if it was to be played well.

Most of these types of hardcore players don't feel the need to do or say what the hardcore players you talk about are doing on these forums. Casual or hardcore alike, I honestly believe most people are behind UWE making decisions and also keeping us informed of those decisions. It doesn't come down, for me, to whether they're hardcore or not (though it's more likely), it comes down to whether they're able to distinguish an objective viewpoint from a personal one, a balanced and considered approach at viewing a new announcement taking in to account the information we don't yet know versus a reactionary knee-jerk against what they personally approve of. Thankfully a lot of people, most perhaps, fall in to the former category. This thread certainly makes me feel I'm in better company than I thought I was two days ago!

homicide · July 2009

Developers should be totally independent to peruse their vision of the game; they should be the one to create concepts and implement them.

However, when it comes to refining the delicate balance, feel, and playability of the game the players are far more qualified. Sadly, these subtle (but extremely important) mechanics are the hardest elements to describe. More often than not, the developers simply get "lucky" (quake/half-life movement) or fail miserably.

Bacillus · July 2009

Completely ignoring the forums sounds overkill. By all means the devs should have their own vision and stick to it, but reading the forums doesn't hurt unless you take them too seriously. With a healthy amount of common sense and some dev inside knowledge it shouldn't be too difficult to tell which thoughts actually are relevant and worth further consideration.

todd1Ok · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Does listening to your consumers can ruin your projects?</div>

<a href="http://img204.imageshack.us/i/021503billcosby2.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9530/021503billcosby2.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

YA SEE, THE KIDS LISTEN TO THE RAP MUSIC

And to keep it on topic, No, listen to your customers. Otherwise you end up out of business. Period.

Bacillus · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (niaccurshi @ Jul 28 2009, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>...</div>
I think there's a mixup. The escapist link defined 'hardcore' as people that post on the forums, not necessarily people who play the most or try to do well in the game.

briktal · July 2009

<span style="color:grey">The main reason you should ignore what a lot of people say about a game is because most people are terrible at games and just suggest things that are completely out of touch with the reality of the game. Then you also have to ignore reaction "x killed me, nerf x" posts. Pre-release, you shouldn't really give much weight to most ideas, but keep an eye out for potential problems that may be mentioned that you might have overlooked.</span>

~~Sickle~~

niaccurshi · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 28 2009, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think there's a mixup. The escapist link defined 'hardcore' as people that post on the forums, not necessarily people who play the most or try to do well in the game.</div>

That was my point, I post on forums about games I love, I think people can be hardcore and not be a jerk.

locallyunscene · July 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 28 2009, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Completely ignoring the forums sounds overkill. By all means the devs should have their own vision and stick to it, but reading the forums doesn't hurt unless you take them too seriously. With a healthy amount of common sense and some dev inside knowledge it shouldn't be too difficult to tell which thoughts actually are relevant and worth further consideration.</div>
QFT.

I also think the taser was a bit of "testing the waters". I'm torn on whether I think it should be included. I think the concept needs a decent amount of revision to "fit" NS2 gameplay-wise and feel-wise. However, I think innovation is important, and not every idea is going to be near perfect at its first unveiling. I'd hate to completely throw away such a promising concept, combination of knife and pistol, just because the art direction may have been off in the beginning.

So really I'm not torn, I think it should stay. I don't agree it should stay exactly as it is and all community feedback should be ignored though.

Fanbase feedback and YOU!

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