The Skulk Grapple
Wyattx3
Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
While posting in another topic I thought of a possible way to implement a possible skulk ability.
The overall idea is that in an ambush, the skulk would use his own body, by grabbing/grappling the marine, and immobilizing him. Serves a similar purpose as devour, but it can be countered much more easily.
I picture the skulk dropping from the ceiling and landing on the marine, using his lower legs to wrap around the marines waist, his stronger upper body to wrap around the arms and upper torso, and then biting down on the neck to slowly suffocate the marine.
The skulk would be unable to take any action other than cancelling the attack.
As a marine, you would still be able to move, and see where you are going. However as time passes, the effects of the skulks suffocation would increase. Over the course of 8-15 seconds ( Arbitrary numbers) the marine's movement speed would slow down, and his vision slowly fading out. When time runs out his screen would be completely black and he would fall to the ground dead.
The skulk suffocating the marine would be entirely vulnerable to any attack. If he gets knocked off the skulk would be tired and slower than normal, and wouldn't have enough energy to bite more than 1 time for 3-5 seconds.
The overall idea is that in an ambush, the skulk would use his own body, by grabbing/grappling the marine, and immobilizing him. Serves a similar purpose as devour, but it can be countered much more easily.
I picture the skulk dropping from the ceiling and landing on the marine, using his lower legs to wrap around the marines waist, his stronger upper body to wrap around the arms and upper torso, and then biting down on the neck to slowly suffocate the marine.
The skulk would be unable to take any action other than cancelling the attack.
As a marine, you would still be able to move, and see where you are going. However as time passes, the effects of the skulks suffocation would increase. Over the course of 8-15 seconds ( Arbitrary numbers) the marine's movement speed would slow down, and his vision slowly fading out. When time runs out his screen would be completely black and he would fall to the ground dead.
The skulk suffocating the marine would be entirely vulnerable to any attack. If he gets knocked off the skulk would be tired and slower than normal, and wouldn't have enough energy to bite more than 1 time for 3-5 seconds.
Comments
you have to balance the skill of course, like duration and knockback range after the end of the attack and so on.
edit: forgot to mention: 1 skulk is immobilizing the marine, the second one is chomping him
He said numbers are Arbitrary. Besides if he's alone then this move could be a guarantee kill even if it takes longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1721571:date=Aug 8 2009, 12:48 PM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyattx3 @ Aug 8 2009, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While posting in another topic I thought of a possible way to implement a possible skulk ability.
The overall idea is that in an ambush, the skulk would use his own body, by grabbing/grappling the marine, and immobilizing him. Serves a similar purpose as devour, but it can be countered much more easily.
I picture the skulk dropping from the ceiling and landing on the marine, using his lower legs to wrap around the marines waist, his stronger upper body to wrap around the arms and upper torso, and then biting down on the neck to slowly suffocate the marine.
The skulk would be unable to take any action other than cancelling the attack.
As a marine, you would still be able to move, and see where you are going. However as time passes, the effects of the skulks suffocation would increase. Over the course of 8-15 seconds ( Arbitrary numbers) the marine's movement speed would slow down, and his vision slowly fading out. When time runs out his screen would be completely black and he would fall to the ground dead.
The skulk suffocating the marine would be entirely vulnerable to any attack. If he gets knocked off the skulk would be tired and slower than normal, and wouldn't have enough energy to bite more than 1 time for 3-5 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*That is almost the same way I picture the best implementation of the grapple would be. Except the part where the skulk would be tired if knocked of. I say he falls only when he dies, skulks die quick anyway. And the should not be able to cancel the move, or at least not without some sort of penalty or cancel time delay of like one second.
*Also the marine slow down should not be gradual just something like 80% from start to end. And instead of fading vision just damage over time which a sharp pain effect every 1.25 seconds (Similar to lerk gas but with twice the damage).
*Should take something like 4-5 seconds to kill a full health armor marine. And the com could be able to keep the rine alive with a bit of med spam.
Its hard to stay what should happen when the skulk gets knocked off, or under what conditions he gets knocked off.... We know marines will have some sort of melee attack, so would the skulk be able to be knocked off by this melee attack? Does it deal damage? But, it takes alot of energy to grab on to something and keep them from moving at all, and suffocating them. It would be kind of strange to see a skulk knocked off totally able to move around like normal.... also considering there should be some kind of risk to using this type of ability in the first place.
I think it would be quite balanced if the whole thing takes 3 seconds (maximum time) and dealt 30 damage
What I'd suggest is a lengthy ability timer and developing it to work best as a sort of finishing move but other than that it becomes just a desperate delay tactic. So hear me out, bit of a long one;
so when a standard marine is healthy and a skulk tries to land a grapple manoeuvre (imagining a left 4 dead style incapacitate) the marine is given a 'action key' prompt to throw off the skulk. Damage would be minimal or non existent so it serves little more than a minor distraction. The grapple ability should then be disabled for a lengthy amount of time and the marine can carry on.
However, based on a marines health it should become more brutal, a marine in the yellow takes maybe 15~25 damage and it takes around 5 seconds for the 'action key' to throw off the skulk to appear. When a marine is in the red it should work as a finishing move, disabling the 'action key' all together but allow for a team mate to assist by moving up to the incapacitated player and pulling off the skulk with said 'action key' prompt instead. Incap when in the red would last something like 20-30 seconds but result in death if not freed by a team mate in time. Being freed before this time would leave the marine unharmed as they're already on low health.
I'd also say shooting off a skulk that has grappled a player should either not work if friendly fire does not exist or cause full damage to the marine being shot to encourage marines to guard low health players.
Additionally when a marine is equipped with a jet pack it should have the added effect of disabling the players jet pack allowing for some kamikaze skulk mid air grapples that can also kill a marine with fall damage.
Heavy armour would hard counter it, allowing the player to always be able to throw off a grapple attack regardless of health and take little to no damage as well as kill the skulk as it's thrown down.
LOL
<!--quoteo(post=1722467:date=Aug 12 2009, 11:17 PM:name=naughty_skulker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (naughty_skulker @ Aug 12 2009, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heavy armour would hard counter it, allowing the player to always be able to throw off a grapple attack regardless of health and take little to no damage as well as kill the skulk as it's thrown down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
woah, little bit hard consequences dont you think?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xmaine)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fades should be able to grapple too....
LOL<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
grapple for gorges!
Rock paper scissors shoot tactics, I'll stick with the shoot em all
this idea seems more like some thing from L4D trying to kill rambo
The reason I like this type of attack, understanding that yes it has to be balanced so its not a "lame" "abusive" "stupid" "not fun" attack, is because it reinforces TEAMPLAY... which ultimately makes the game and the community that much better.
So while there are epic moments in NS1 where rambos actually accomplish something. And while there are times where theres 1 good person and 3 stupid people on a team, and its easier to just go on your own, is that ever really fun?
I guarentee I'm not the only person who wants to encourage real team play. ( I understand that competetive/public playstyles are largely different, however most people play on pugs, and if there was a great level of teamwork among players in the game on pugs, it would say alot.)
kind of long :)
and grapple sounds kind of fun, but the more i think about it, the less interesting it sounds. the plus is that it discourages rambo marines, and it makes it easier for an alien to take out a single marine (hooray?) the downside is, it sounds SUUUUPER BORING. the fun of being an alien was that adrenaline pumping ambush moment where everyone is feaking out and you have seconds to spaz around and wildly tear into the marines with that satisfying visceral chomp they have in NS1. so, to jump in and grab on with a slow damage over time kill or immbolize sounds like exactly the opposite of this. you jump down and grab onto the marine! you sit there....doing nothing for few seconds while you wait for him to kindly die. the marine realizes hes been bit! he knows no ones around and he starts to contemplate the meaning of life, patiently waiting for the inevitable...
really? this doesnt sound anything like the fast paced twitch action that was so characteristic of natural selection 1. i do like how it kind of forces teamwork, that was the best feature of it in L4D, but it doesnt sound like fun for ANYONE, so...bleh
and to comment on the argument that it discourages rambo marines is the fact that you would still have to get close enough to bite the marine. waht made it (sometimes) effective to be rambo in NS1 was that a lone marine could often kill a skulk BEFORE engaged in melee range.
secondly, when the skulk did get close enough to bite the marine, the marine would often be able to out maneuver the skulk (which was another problem in and of itself, though of course player skill is integral to that, it shouldnt be quite so easy to dodge an alien, as the design (as far as i can tell) was that marines have advantage at range, aliens have advantage when close up. these advantages balance each other by their very nature, and the marine shouldnt be better at getting out of melee range, as they have guns to keep them from ever having to be in melee range. i guess thats just a bunnyhopping issue, and hopefully that will change in NS2)
ANYWAY
the point was, ramboing worked becasue they could kill the skulk before he could get to them, so grappling wont change that, but it could make it easier because you only have to land one bite, but hopefully in NS2 it wont be so hard to land two bites.
and grappling takes control away from both players, making it no fun for anyone while its going on.
in conclusion, be creative and think of someting else, no L4D cloning.
all the tackling and disabling dosnt seem to fit the gameplay theme they had goin on in NS1. again, the only good part is the forcing of teamwork, but it soudns like theyve got their own solution to that with marine squads.
In horror titles I see the grapple feature as becoming just that, a standard. For me it adds intensity as you franticly try to keep your distance.
I do believe in innovation too, absolutely but it doesn't discount for me a copied game feature which is relevant to a new game. What's so wrong about taking a great feature and using it, in this case a grabbing action seen not just in L4D but numerous other horror titles such as Dead Space and Resident Evil 5, all great games that use it to effect...? The only time I'd have a problem with it would be if it was poorly implemented or out of place.
And of course if they come up with something better, go for it. I just don't agree that because another game has it it should be discounted.
As for fitting into the NS game play, I've made my post before about how I think it could work and don't think it'll slow up the action too much going on the said example of L4D it works quite well in a fast game. It's very much a matter of opinion though and what you like, personally I see a lot of potential in a grappling move. I believe it handles this rambo issue well and adds this layer of panic amongst the frenzied attacks of the original NS, with a lengthy timer on the ability and only a real threat when badly wounded I see it needed some strategic thought to use it too.
One thing I'd add though about my suggestion is that a skulk should be able to disengage from a grapple too as it would be lame if a full health marine just decided to stand there and take it to make the skulk inactive for a period of time.
There is a mod for the source engine called "The Hidden: Source" where one player is pretty much like Predator from the Predator movies, and the other players are all in an 8 player human armed forces squad.
The Hidden player had 3 types of attacks, one was a normal slashing attack where he would slowly hurt the enemy, one was a "pigstick" attack which was a powerful 1 hit kill stab that caused the target to basically explode with his limbs going everywhere. The other attack was a pipebomb which was used to flush the humans out of tight camping spaces or break humans up.
Alot of players ran around the map using the pigsticking ability to try and kill as quickly as possible so that they had the highest score, but the most fun had in the game was when a player slowly killed the human players by pouncing around the map, slashing a player once to scare him, then bouncing away or jumping straight up to the ceiling above the player and waiting for that player to finish shooting like a madman before doing one of the many creepy taunts, dropping down and slashing the player again a few times to kill him.
There was also an advantage to killing a player with normal slashes...you could feed off the body afterwards for health, where as a one hit pigstick kill meant you couldn't get any health off the body.
The same thing would occur with this "Skulk Grapple", players who WANT to do the grapple and risk the possibility of another marine coming along and killing them CAN take that risk, but also be rewarded with a nice HP bonus and the thrill of killing someone with the grapple.
The only problem I could see that may occur with the Skulk Grapple is that marine players could get frustrated with it if it's too hard to evade or the grapple works even though the skulk aimed to the right or left of the marine, not aimed AT the marine.
One idea that just popped into my head about this grapple ability would be that before the Skulk is about to do the grapple move, it would be delayed while the Skulk is preparing to do a leap or something so that marine players would be able to prepare for the attack and evade if necessary.
But for example, if it rewarded the alien team or player with resources... Marines would not want very many rambos going out feeding the alien team.
In my mind, the only purpose of the grappel is to stop rambos, which would hopefully create a more team-based playstyle among marines. They don't need to spend half the time saving each other from grapples and blindness and other really disabling features. But if there was just one very good incentive. Instead of one incredibly confident marine going solo, he will choose to go with his teamates because, well, its dangerous out there alone.
Skulk I think is the best creature to have this ability, as they are common at every stage in the game, and they are weak to stronger levels of marine tech, which would ultimately counter this kind of ability... (Motion Tracking, Heavy Armor). Because of this, standard marines would still keep that incentive to team up with others, rather than go alone throughout the entire game.... but especially in the beggining.
I like the resource gain idea too, but don't alien kills normally give resources ?? Been a long while since I played NS :P
There should also be some sortof melee ability to kill a skulk if it's in the grapple too, similar to melee attacking a hunter or smoker in left 4 dead to get the creature off another player without damaging the player with FF.
It would definately be a nice addition.