I wonder why there is a strange '2' on the end of "Natural Selection". Things can't be possibly different where the old balance rules don't apply 1:1 anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1716202:date=Jul 7 2009, 10:28 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jul 7 2009, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1716202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually if you look at the umbra ability in NS 1 it's a cloud. The lore is that a cloud of spores is created that obscures the lerk from view, thus reducing the efficiency of marine fire on the target. In game this translates into a percentage decrease of damage to units within the cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from the 1.0 manual <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two Hives: Umbra
A variation on the sporecloud, this remarkable ability is used for defense, not attack. The umbra is an orange cloud that lasts for ten seconds, and protects all friendly creatures and chambers inside it. The particles in the cloud seem to have disruptive kinetic properties. Incoming bullets and shrapnel are robbed of momentum, and are likely to bounce harmlessly off their target. A small percentage of projectiles in any given attack will slip through unaffected. Knives and grenades are also not affected: the mass of the marine is behind a knife slash, and a grenade's blast particles are so small and fast they slip through. However, LMG's, shotguns, HMG's and pistols all do a fraction of their normal damage. Alien weapons, puzzlingly enough, can pass out of the cloud normally. Besides personal defense, Lerks often use umbra to protect chambers, hives and other aliens during coordinated actions.
We would very much like to learn the composition of this cloud – various experiments have been proposed by TSA scientific personnel, all quickly rejected by field commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also just because devour isn't on the list of onos abilities doesn't mean it's being removed, remember these will have alt-fires.
"As someone who plays on the few community NS servers left, I have to say without devour, Onos would be almost useless."
You don't know this, you *can't* know this. I can't believe some people are still so stupid that they are willing to transpose all of their knowledge of NS1 as if it's gospel truth and expect it to be the close enough to the same game in NS2 that they can make utterly benign statements such as this.
I suppose it's amazingly easy being an armchair developer.
Bah, seriously? If you'd read the remainder, you'd see that whole paragraph was pointed completely at NS1 gameplay, yet the second paragraph was aimed as the very point you made. Do people read anymore?
NS2 is completely different, the NS1 Onos requires devour, but that says NOTHING of NS2. To be more specific, I was countering those before stating devour has no use in NS1.
Sorry if I was unclear, but I thought I'd made the point clearly...
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1716912:date=Jul 11 2009, 08:49 PM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (radforChrist @ Jul 11 2009, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1716912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bah, seriously? If you'd read the remainder, you'd see that whole paragraph was pointed completely at NS1 gameplay, yet the second paragraph was aimed as the very point you made. Do people read anymore?
NS2 is completely different, the NS1 Onos requires devour, but that says NOTHING of NS2. To be more specific, I was countering those before stating devour has no use in NS1.
Sorry if I was unclear, but I thought I'd made the point clearly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> FWIW I understood what you meant. I could see how people were confused though, the post was only clear as long as you assumed the first paragraph was not a justification for the second. I had to reread it a couple times before I got your meaning that the NS1 onos needed devour while NS2 is different and that you had faith the devs would balance it.
<!--quoteo(post=1717095:date=Jul 13 2009, 07:14 PM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jul 13 2009, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please do an actual in game footage video so I can finally pre order.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos animation = in-game footage. Just camera pans around it on a background they mocked up.
Cinematic "teaser" Video is using the game engine as well, have a look at some of the vidcasts they've done. A bit of in-game footage shown there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And i dont think "devour and run" oni (?) are noobs...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most are. People who sit outside MS, devour the first marine that comes out, and then hide two corridors away are an utter waste of res.
This isn't helped by utter incompents who stigmatise an Onos who runs in, takes down 2 IPs and the Obs before dying. Yet that Onos is probably winning the game for you, while the other Onos is hiding in a corridor doing nothing constructive. Not only is one marine out of the game, but your ONOS is out of the game too. Advantage lost.
So while I miss Devour, I'm hoping this'll see a lot more Onos aggression and a lot more damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1717324:date=Jul 14 2009, 06:00 PM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Jul 14 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think most are. People who sit outside MS, devour the first marine that comes out, and then hide two corridors away are an utter waste of res.
This isn't helped by utter incompents who stigmatise an Onos who runs in, takes down 2 IPs and the Obs before dying. Yet that Onos is probably winning the game for you, while the other Onos is hiding in a corridor doing nothing constructive. Not only is one marine out of the game, but your ONOS is out of the game too. Advantage lost.
So while I miss Devour, I'm hoping this'll see a lot more Onos aggression and a lot more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... the onos eating a marine is leaving the marines with one less player. Hope it to be their best. Than, a "digesting marine" is completely out of action. Can't build, can't kill, he just can't. The onos on the other hand, can kill, can protect and create a big mess.
And.. well... Hit and run onos that are trying to stop a HA rush aren't noobs. They realize its better to kill 1 or 2 heavies and stay alive than respawn as a small almost useless skulk against well armed, med packed and loaded Heavy Armored marines.
And theres nothing like stomp kills. Charge, Stomp, kill! 2nd best alien kill. Only after leap, and just ahead of health spray!
I think you missed his point, probably because you didn't read his post in full. "The onos on the other hand, can kill, can protect and create a big mess." Can, but doesn't. That's his point. He's saying that's those onoses' tendency.
Awesome news ppl... really looking forward to the alpha :) Dunno if it has been suggested yet but i do agree with the others that bone shield sounds a little imba. A possible solution could be some narrow corridors where the onos cant go trough with the bone shield activated... this would give the marines the chance to ambush the onos to stop its rush.
Anyways... hope the skulk stays as it was cuz its really fun to play it as good player right now
I don't know but so far these abilities seem just so defense focused that it feels strange. Especially considering the part about stomp:
"(although we hope good players will be able to counter-act this to some effect, like recoil)"
Sounds like they don't want marines to be affected all that much by onos abilities.
Overall the abilities lack offense to me, of course we don't know how NS2 will work in the end but i just dislike the concept for the onos right now. "disruptor" sounds fancy but in the end the onos toolset seems to have lost offense (stomp stun) for the boneshield.
Also depends on how long stomp disables buildings, if we are talking NS1 stomp length than i don't see the usefullness of it on RT's and some other structures. The commanders screen going black and shacky sounds cool but i think the impact of this isn't as big as it sounds, any commander who know's his controls can hit his beacon blind/with shacky black screen just by using key shortcuts.
<!--quoteo(post=1717395:date=Jul 15 2009, 04:53 AM:name=Sheepherd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sheepherd @ Jul 15 2009, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Awesome news ppl... really looking forward to the alpha :) Dunno if it has been suggested yet but i do agree with the others that bone shield sounds a little imba. A possible solution could be some narrow corridors where the onos cant go trough with the bone shield activated... this would give the marines the chance to ambush the onos to stop its rush.
Anyways... hope the skulk stays as it was cuz its really fun to play it as good player right now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a terrible solution, making the corridors so that the onos gets stuck if he activates bone shield? I think its fine the way it is...if an onos decides to use bone shield in a narrow corridor, the marine strategy should be to a) get behind it and shoot away, or b) if that's not possible, fall back to a wider area
NS2 maps will be more about rooms and less about the hallways that connect them, so I don't think there will be really long hallways for onos to blitz through in shield mode. Of course it's up to the mappers to place any narrow areas strategically so there's not, say, an Onos Canal (get it? Nydus Canal? meh, nvm) leading right into Marine Start.
<!--quoteo(post=1717442:date=Jul 15 2009, 12:11 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jul 15 2009, 12:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know but so far these abilities seem just so defense focused that it feels strange. Especially considering the part about stomp:
"(although we hope good players will be able to counter-act this to some effect, like recoil)"
Sounds like they don't want marines to be affected all that much by onos abilities.
Overall the abilities lack offense to me, of course we don't know how NS2 will work in the end but i just dislike the concept for the onos right now. "disruptor" sounds fancy but in the end the onos toolset seems to have lost offense (stomp stun) for the boneshield.
Also depends on how long stomp disables buildings, if we are talking NS1 stomp length than i don't see the usefullness of it on RT's and some other structures. The commanders screen going black and shacky sounds cool but i think the impact of this isn't as big as it sounds, any commander who know's his controls can hit his beacon blind/with shacky black screen just by using key shortcuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The point is that he's not a solo killer anymore, he's more like the centerpiece of a team attack. If they don't shoot him he can separate and disable marines with gore, if they do he can soak it with the shield until they stop. Stomp is another way for him to hinder the marines while his buddies attack, and it at least counters turrets. Even if the penalty can be offset by skill that doesn't mean it's removed - for example if it added recoil they would have to fire in bursts, reducing their DPS. The point of a disruptor is to make it very difficult for the defenders to mount a proper defense. You really think the Onos was better for offense in NS? An HMG camped in the opposite corner rendered him useless.
I feel it is important to share my opinion since the Onos is taking a turn in a direction I am not happy about. I play NS regularly so I think I have some backing to my opinion and I feel that many others share my thoughts.
My biggest gripe is the look of the Onos. I like the old one much better. I don't like that gorilla look at all. It just doesn't look as threatening and mean. It looks like a gorilla wearing an Aztec mask. I think you should go back and redo it and keep it more traditional. This is not gonna help the deadline but if it's possible I would like it much better. I don't see anything wrong with the concept art, but that doesn't show the back side. At least change the backside and make it look more like the old Onos. It looked bigger, more menacing and more "OH S***!" inducing.
I think what you do wrong is that you want to wow the community/audience by releasing somewhat completed bits but in doing so you have lost touch with it. If you presented the look in the concept art to us and had us choose like you did with the marine concept art you would have at least satisfied a majority. Think of the alternative - you spend precious time working on something that will be changed or scrapped later. Some of that will happen no matter what. My suggestion would be to present some concept art before going through with the modeling and animation.
I would like devour to stay. I know it's annoying sometimes when you get eaten as a marine. But NS is the only game where you can eat a player. That is huge. It's so satisfying when you eat a player. When I though of NS in my head all these months waiting for it I always was like "I wonder how devour will look. Maybe they will add some animation instead of having the marine just magically disappear in front of the Onos." I would imagine an Onos lifting a marine up in the air and shaking him up and down to aid ingestion.
I foresee a potential pitfall with Bone Shield but I don't have a decisive opinion if it should stay or not. I know for a fact that players don't play as a team most of the time. Voice chat helps somewhat but from my experience as a support Lerk goes like this:
Trying to Umbra a player to encourage him to attack doesn't work most of the time. I play a lot on pubs and teamwork is terrible. It's every man for himself and unfortunately that's what you'll have to work with. That said, my suggestion is to take it easy with team-oriented and teamwork dependent abilities. My prediction is that when an Onos uses Bone Shield, most players won't take advantage of it by following him and closing the distance. Bone Shield fortunately at least helps the Onos get closer to the marines, and I think that fits his role.
This may be different in a trained team environment, like a clan. But someone shouldn't have to belong to a clan to get the most out of the game.
I think you need to focus on making the game spectacular. Surely you don't want to waste our time working on features that will be taken out later on either. That's why you should release some concept art first. I understand all this, but I think Devour can stay and well the gorilla look I don't like. That may be a matter of personal taste but I don't think that is a problem since others have complained. I don't think anyone complained about the old Onos look. It looked mighty. It looked serious and mean not something that belongs in a tree.
On a side note:
I would also like the skulk view to follow the walls like in AVP but a lot of people hate that. It takes some time getting used to but once you get it down it is so much better and easier. If you have never done that you have no idea how fun it is. You can run circles around marines up and down walls and ceilings and really screw up their aim, while never losing sight of your target. I know a lot of people don't like this and refuse to learn how to do it. Why not include a toggle option for those of us who like it this way? Eventually everyone will switch to it because it is simply more effective. If you don't believe me go play AVP (especially the first one) for a couple of hours as an alien. Walk on walls and see how much easier it is to look while moving. As a skulk I find that I have to spend a lot of time watching out for every stupid little wedge on the wall that could make me lose grip and fall. I don't think that is what you intended, is it?
The skulk has a lot of trouble walking up walls without while following the target. It makes it very hard to dodge bullets on walls while attacking, because by the time you are on the ceiling you have no idea where the marine is. You would have to look around and that takes time. When you take fire you can't stop and look around you have to keep moving. Currently, the skulks ability to walk on walls is only useful as a way to ambush and hide, but not useful when it comes to dodging bullets. Skulks always end up bunny hopping on the ground instead, which doesn't quite fit in with their abilities on paper. I know I am repeating myself but I just want to make sure I drive the point.
It took me like 2 hours to edit and refine this and add everything I wanted to say ever since following the development of NS2. I have been following along since it was mentioned, but I never had time to come in and share my opinion. I most likely won't have time to come back and check here what people say. I'm 24 and no longer sit at the computer all day like I used to.
I have been playing NS since it came out, with occasional breaks. I will continue to follow along. I am fairly confident that it will come out alright in the end, you polished the hell out of NS as much as you could and that is why it lasted so long. I'm excited about dynamic infestation, dimming lights, emergency lighting etc..
It occurs to me that the smaller rear half of the onos will serve to make the bone shield more effective since there will be less target area from the front to shoot around. That said, maybe some very minor tweaks to the model, or even re-texturing that area would make it look a bit less gorilla like and more alien.
As for devour, I like the idea of the attack, but I don't much care for the hit & run tactics it promotes, so removing it doesn't bother me. Someone will probably add it back as a mod anyway
I feel it is important to share my opinion since the Onos is taking a turn in a direction I am not happy about. I play NS regularly so I think I have some backing to my opinion and I feel that many others share my thoughts.
My biggest gripe is the look of the Onos. I like the old one much better. I don't like that gorilla look at all. It just doesn't look as threatening and mean. It looks like a gorilla wearing an Aztec mask. I think you should go back and redo it and keep it more traditional. This is not gonna help the deadline but if it's possible I would like it much better. I don't see anything wrong with the concept art, but that doesn't show the back side. At least change the backside and make it look more like the old Onos. It looked bigger, more menacing and more "OH S***!" inducing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally, I disagree. I feel the old Onos lacked any sort of real definition in the musculature. Kind of like an immensely fattened horse with a bone helmet on. To me, the new Onos looks <i>powerful</i> It's gone on a heavy exercise regiment and converted all that fat in the back to lean muscle.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think what you do wrong is that you want to wow the community/audience by releasing somewhat completed bits but in doing so you have lost touch with it. If you presented the look in the concept art to us and had us choose like you did with the marine concept art you would have at least satisfied a majority. Think of the alternative - you spend precious time working on something that will be changed or scrapped later. Some of that will happen no matter what. My suggestion would be to present some concept art before going through with the modeling and animation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->They could check every single detail over with the community and let's be honest, the people who were going to whine will still do so. The only difference is that it would take them at least 3 times as long to get a game out for us. Personally, I think the new Onos *will* satisfy the majority, especially when you consider that (hopefully) that majority will wind up including a ton of people who've never seen NS1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like devour to stay. I know it's annoying sometimes when you get eaten as a marine. But NS is the only game where you can eat a player. That is huge. It's so satisfying when you eat a player. When I though of NS in my head all these months waiting for it I always was like "I wonder how devour will look. Maybe they will add some animation instead of having the marine just magically disappear in front of the Onos." I would imagine an Onos lifting a marine up in the air and shaking him up and down to aid ingestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They haven't actually said devour is leaving. They've just enumerated three other abilities. It's entirely possible that there are more and devour could be one of them. Looking at the text on the main page, it sounds like it is. That said, I don't like devour myself, as it tends to make for a cowardly onos that you can't really engage in any teamwork with because he's always trying to run away in order to digets h is meal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I foresee a potential pitfall with Bone Shield but I don't have a decisive opinion if it should stay or not. I know for a fact that players don't play as a team most of the time. Voice chat helps somewhat but from my experience as a support Lerk goes like this:
Trying to Umbra a player to encourage him to attack doesn't work most of the time. I play a lot on pubs and teamwork is terrible. It's every man for himself and unfortunately that's what you'll have to work with. That said, my suggestion is to take it easy with team-oriented and teamwork dependent abilities. My prediction is that when an Onos uses Bone Shield, most players won't take advantage of it by following him and closing the distance. Bone Shield fortunately at least helps the Onos get closer to the marines, and I think that fits his role.
This may be different in a trained team environment, like a clan. But someone shouldn't have to belong to a clan to get the most out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a pure pub player. The answer to non-team playing folks is simple, don't help them. They'll go off and die, and the good players who help each other will do better. That said, your issue isn't one of teamwork, it's of playing with low skilled players who don't know how to take advantage of opportunities presented to them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to focus on making the game spectacular. Surely you don't want to waste our time working on features that will be taken out later on either. That's why you should release some concept art first. I understand all this, but I think Devour can stay and well the gorilla look I don't like. That may be a matter of personal taste but I don't think that is a problem since others have complained. I don't think anyone complained about the old Onos look. It looked mighty. It looked serious and mean not something that belongs in a tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I expect it is your personal taste. I never complained about the old onos look either, but that's only because there really wasn't anything to compare it to. Now there is and I by far prefer the new look.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note:
I would also like the skulk view to follow the walls like in AVP but a lot of people hate that. It takes some time getting used to but once you get it down it is so much better and easier. If you have never done that you have no idea how fun it is. You can run circles around marines up and down walls and ceilings and really screw up their aim, while never losing sight of your target. I know a lot of people don't like this and refuse to learn how to do it. Why not include a toggle option for those of us who like it this way? Eventually everyone will switch to it because it is simply more effective. If you don't believe me go play AVP (especially the first one) for a couple of hours as an alien. Walk on walls and see how much easier it is to look while moving. As a skulk I find that I have to spend a lot of time watching out for every stupid little wedge on the wall that could make me lose grip and fall. I don't think that is what you intended, is it?
The skulk has a lot of trouble walking up walls without while following the target. It makes it very hard to dodge bullets on walls while attacking, because by the time you are on the ceiling you have no idea where the marine is. You would have to look around and that takes time. When you take fire you can't stop and look around you have to keep moving. Currently, the skulks ability to walk on walls is only useful as a way to ambush and hide, but not useful when it comes to dodging bullets. Skulks always end up bunny hopping on the ground instead, which doesn't quite fit in with their abilities on paper. I know I am repeating myself but I just want to make sure I drive the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've got no experience with this, but I'm willing to give it a whirl, so I tend to agree with the toggle option.
Wow, a lot of people seem to keep associating all the issues, glitches, and problems of NS1 and juxtaposing them into NS2 instantly.
I personally think Bone Shield sounds great, and totally fits the Onos' theme of an absolute living monstrosity, hopefully the attack delay form firing and deploying will be sufficient enough that a skilled player, with perhaps Regen, could use it as a poor man's redemption, or run first into a turret farm, hop in a corner, and bone shield while teammates rip it down. Using it to break a hive sieges by lumbering towards the marines will protecting YOUR ENTIRE TEAM from damage so they can get in close.
100% damage mitigation from the front, along with forced crawling. Not that movement speed will be the same, but really, a crouched bone shielding Onos lumbering down from the end of our mythological corridor? ######, sounds like a smoke break to me. Or "Comm, need a grenade launcher down here pronto."
Despite patches and upgrades, NS1 Onos, while being big and scary, didn't have the stats to back it up, and at higher tiers was still cannon fodder unless you had Carapace and a couple of gorges following you. Tier 3 marines were just a nightmare, bone shield gives back an edge, it allows the Onos to be the vanguard for the Aliens, which is, what I believe, to be the development team's intention. Not so much to be an individual wrecking ball, but monstrous vanguard unit, used to shatter the enemy's walls and allow the rest of the team in.
Look at Primal Scream and Stomp, coupled with it's high HP, those 2 moves make for an excellent NS1 vanguard, but you need TEAMWORK for it to work. This game has always been about teamwork, Devour, in my eyes, broke that necessity by giving the Onos a complete capability and justification for running around Solo. It immediately removed a target, and, with some good energy management with stomp and gores, probably allowed you to get a kill or 2 in, and run away. Boom, you killed enemies, and your also keeping another one potentially out of the game for up 20~ seconds. I am credit to team! Except, your team probably could have been better assisted when they assailed MS where Primal Scream and Stomp would have assisted them in winning the game.
Removing Devour, and adding in Bone Shield, in my eyes, is a solid nudge into the mentality of "I should really try to work with my team using this Onos' thing, because it's really hard to take these guys on myself, but when I do this Bone Shield thing and walk into the enemy fortifications, we seem to do really well."
I'm not sure if someone has said this yet or not...I'm not about to browse through 140 some odd posts to find out! lol
My thoughts on Alien "Armor":
It seems too inorganic to me. It's true many natural creatures have "armor" but never have I seen any that look man-made. Those sharp lines, 90 degree angles... bleh. Think of a crab or a beetle... smooth, curved, flowing shells. Yes, I know some crabs and such have pointy things but the bits are still rounded. Trust me I know, I just dropped $70 bucks on King and Snow crabs! ;) Don't get me wrong, I do love the Rhino head on the Silver-Back look but the blocky armor just ruins it for me. I think the Onos would look much better with Armadillo type armor. Or even if the edges were smoothed out more. Anyway, major kudos to the artist who made that, the Gorilla body is just amazing!
My two cents.
P.s. You should add "Onos" to the spell checker! lol
Well I only read the first thread page ( am I a lazy guy? :S ) but that bone shield looks awesome actually. You guys said it could be overpowered, but it actually forces marines to move properly and not just "wait".
The onos ( one or two ) could move, shielded, and cover aliens that are right behind him. You still can use grenades to hit the aliens behind. You can spread out and wait him to make the first move, it makes the marines even more prepared ( no more surprise from the aliens ) ! I've read there are stunning weapons ; I guess it works on the onos aswell.
Still, having two onos would be quite imba. If you have seen how Spartans works in 300 ( the movie ), its pretty good :p Hard to do, but good. Two or 3 shields, one dude ready right behind them. Then you release the shield for a few secs, let the fighter do his work, and then cover him at the right moment. The gorge stayed behind and can now heal the fighter. Repeat this until death. But this combo looks useless in NS thou...
Just a few lines to say that a 100% resistant onos ain't imba ; just go back, wait him to make a mistake, he can't Gore while shielded anyway. Maybe adding a "Slowed when shot" during the shield time would be better.
Only the failures who were horrible at the game are complaining how Devour was OP.
Chances are that if you were close enough to get devoured, you were already dead.
6 on 6, 3 Onos devouring 3 Marines. Limit 1-2 Onos on a team, gg problem solved.
In other words... No devour, one of the most fun features of the game = No buy
Limiting other abilities while devouring a marine would be quite a good way to go about it. NOTHING made a marine as terrified when watching an Onos go zooming in, snag up one of their squad members only to zoom off again. It was fun both on the Marine side and the Alien side.
I'm disappointed in you, Devs, to remove one of the most unique traits of your game... The 'fun' aspect.
However, considering how overpowered Boneshield sounds, Devour is going to be the least of the complainers to worry about. I can hear the tears dripping on the pavement already.
Comments
from the 1.0 manual
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two Hives: Umbra
A variation on the sporecloud, this remarkable ability is used for defense, not attack. The umbra is an orange cloud that lasts for ten seconds, and protects all friendly creatures and chambers inside it. The particles in the cloud seem to have disruptive kinetic properties. Incoming bullets and shrapnel are robbed of momentum, and are likely to bounce harmlessly off their target. A small percentage of projectiles in any given attack will slip through unaffected. Knives and grenades are also not affected: the mass of the marine is behind a knife slash, and a grenade's blast particles are so small and fast they slip through. However, LMG's, shotguns, HMG's and pistols all do a fraction of their normal damage. Alien weapons, puzzlingly enough, can pass out of the cloud normally. Besides personal defense, Lerks often use umbra to protect chambers, hives and other aliens during coordinated actions.
We would very much like to learn the composition of this cloud – various experiments have been proposed by TSA scientific personnel, all quickly rejected by field commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also just because devour isn't on the list of onos abilities doesn't mean it's being removed, remember these will have alt-fires.
You don't know this, you *can't* know this. I can't believe some people are still so stupid that they are willing to transpose all of their knowledge of NS1 as if it's gospel truth and expect it to be the close enough to the same game in NS2 that they can make utterly benign statements such as this.
I suppose it's amazingly easy being an armchair developer.
NS2 is completely different, the NS1 Onos requires devour, but that says NOTHING of NS2. To be more specific, I was countering those before stating devour has no use in NS1.
Sorry if I was unclear, but I thought I'd made the point clearly...
Thank you :)
NS2 is completely different, the NS1 Onos requires devour, but that says NOTHING of NS2. To be more specific, I was countering those before stating devour has no use in NS1.
Sorry if I was unclear, but I thought I'd made the point clearly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FWIW I understood what you meant. I could see how people were confused though, the post was only clear as long as you assumed the first paragraph was not a justification for the second. I had to reread it a couple times before I got your meaning that the NS1 onos needed devour while NS2 is different and that you had faith the devs would balance it.
Onos animation = in-game footage. Just camera pans around it on a background they mocked up.
Cinematic "teaser" Video is using the game engine as well, have a look at some of the vidcasts they've done. A bit of in-game footage shown there.
I think most are. People who sit outside MS, devour the first marine that comes out, and then hide two corridors away are an utter waste of res.
This isn't helped by utter incompents who stigmatise an Onos who runs in, takes down 2 IPs and the Obs before dying. Yet that Onos is probably winning the game for you, while the other Onos is hiding in a corridor doing nothing constructive. Not only is one marine out of the game, but your ONOS is out of the game too. Advantage lost.
So while I miss Devour, I'm hoping this'll see a lot more Onos aggression and a lot more damage.
This isn't helped by utter incompents who stigmatise an Onos who runs in, takes down 2 IPs and the Obs before dying. Yet that Onos is probably winning the game for you, while the other Onos is hiding in a corridor doing nothing constructive. Not only is one marine out of the game, but your ONOS is out of the game too. Advantage lost.
So while I miss Devour, I'm hoping this'll see a lot more Onos aggression and a lot more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... the onos eating a marine is leaving the marines with one less player. Hope it to be their best.
Than, a "digesting marine" is completely out of action. Can't build, can't kill, he just can't.
The onos on the other hand, can kill, can protect and create a big mess.
And.. well... Hit and run onos that are trying to stop a HA rush aren't noobs. They realize its better to kill 1 or 2 heavies and stay alive than respawn as a small almost useless skulk against well armed, med packed and loaded Heavy Armored marines.
And theres nothing like stomp kills. Charge, Stomp, kill! 2nd best alien kill. Only after leap, and just ahead of health spray!
"The onos on the other hand, can kill, can protect and create a big mess."
Can, but doesn't. That's his point. He's saying that's those onoses' tendency.
Dunno if it has been suggested yet but i do agree with the others that bone shield sounds a little imba.
A possible solution could be some narrow corridors where the onos cant go trough with the bone shield activated... this would give the marines the chance to ambush the onos to stop its rush.
Anyways... hope the skulk stays as it was cuz its really fun to play it as good player right now
Especially considering the part about stomp:
"(although we hope good players will be able to counter-act this to some effect, like recoil)"
Sounds like they don't want marines to be affected all that much by onos abilities.
Overall the abilities lack offense to me, of course we don't know how NS2 will work in the end but i just dislike the concept for the onos right now.
"disruptor" sounds fancy but in the end the onos toolset seems to have lost offense (stomp stun) for the boneshield.
Also depends on how long stomp disables buildings, if we are talking NS1 stomp length than i don't see the usefullness of it on RT's and some other structures.
The commanders screen going black and shacky sounds cool but i think the impact of this isn't as big as it sounds, any commander who know's his controls can hit his beacon blind/with shacky black screen just by using key shortcuts.
Dunno if it has been suggested yet but i do agree with the others that bone shield sounds a little imba.
A possible solution could be some narrow corridors where the onos cant go trough with the bone shield activated... this would give the marines the chance to ambush the onos to stop its rush.
Anyways... hope the skulk stays as it was cuz its really fun to play it as good player right now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a terrible solution, making the corridors so that the onos gets stuck if he activates bone shield? I think its fine the way it is...if an onos decides to use bone shield in a narrow corridor, the marine strategy should be to a) get behind it and shoot away, or b) if that's not possible, fall back to a wider area
NS2 maps will be more about rooms and less about the hallways that connect them, so I don't think there will be really long hallways for onos to blitz through in shield mode. Of course it's up to the mappers to place any narrow areas strategically so there's not, say, an Onos Canal (get it? Nydus Canal? meh, nvm) leading right into Marine Start.
Especially considering the part about stomp:
"(although we hope good players will be able to counter-act this to some effect, like recoil)"
Sounds like they don't want marines to be affected all that much by onos abilities.
Overall the abilities lack offense to me, of course we don't know how NS2 will work in the end but i just dislike the concept for the onos right now.
"disruptor" sounds fancy but in the end the onos toolset seems to have lost offense (stomp stun) for the boneshield.
Also depends on how long stomp disables buildings, if we are talking NS1 stomp length than i don't see the usefullness of it on RT's and some other structures.
The commanders screen going black and shacky sounds cool but i think the impact of this isn't as big as it sounds, any commander who know's his controls can hit his beacon blind/with shacky black screen just by using key shortcuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that he's not a solo killer anymore, he's more like the centerpiece of a team attack. If they don't shoot him he can separate and disable marines with gore, if they do he can soak it with the shield until they stop. Stomp is another way for him to hinder the marines while his buddies attack, and it at least counters turrets. Even if the penalty can be offset by skill that doesn't mean it's removed - for example if it added recoil they would have to fire in bursts, reducing their DPS. The point of a disruptor is to make it very difficult for the defenders to mount a proper defense. You really think the Onos was better for offense in NS? An HMG camped in the opposite corner rendered him useless.
I feel it is important to share my opinion since the Onos is taking a turn in a direction I am not happy about. I play NS regularly so I think I have some backing to my opinion and I feel that many others share my thoughts.
My biggest gripe is the look of the Onos. I like the old one much better. I don't like that gorilla look at all. It just doesn't look as threatening and mean. It looks like a gorilla wearing an Aztec mask. I think you should go back and redo it and keep it more traditional. This is not gonna help the deadline but if it's possible I would like it much better. I don't see anything wrong with the concept art, but that doesn't show the back side. At least change the backside and make it look more like the old Onos. It looked bigger, more menacing and more "OH S***!" inducing.
I think what you do wrong is that you want to wow the community/audience by releasing somewhat completed bits but in doing so you have lost touch with it. If you presented the look in the concept art to us and had us choose like you did with the marine concept art you would have at least satisfied a majority. Think of the alternative - you spend precious time working on something that will be changed or scrapped later. Some of that will happen no matter what. My suggestion would be to present some concept art before going through with the modeling and animation.
I would like devour to stay. I know it's annoying sometimes when you get eaten as a marine. But NS is the only game where you can eat a player. That is huge. It's so satisfying when you eat a player. When I though of NS in my head all these months waiting for it I always was like "I wonder how devour will look. Maybe they will add some animation instead of having the marine just magically disappear in front of the Onos." I would imagine an Onos lifting a marine up in the air and shaking him up and down to aid ingestion.
I foresee a potential pitfall with Bone Shield but I don't have a decisive opinion if it should stay or not. I know for a fact that players don't play as a team most of the time. Voice chat helps somewhat but from my experience as a support Lerk goes like this:
Trying to Umbra a player to encourage him to attack doesn't work most of the time. I play a lot on pubs and teamwork is terrible. It's every man for himself and unfortunately that's what you'll have to work with. That said, my suggestion is to take it easy with team-oriented and teamwork dependent abilities. My prediction is that when an Onos uses Bone Shield, most players won't take advantage of it by following him and closing the distance. Bone Shield fortunately at least helps the Onos get closer to the marines, and I think that fits his role.
This may be different in a trained team environment, like a clan. But someone shouldn't have to belong to a clan to get the most out of the game.
I think you need to focus on making the game spectacular. Surely you don't want to waste our time working on features that will be taken out later on either. That's why you should release some concept art first. I understand all this, but I think Devour can stay and well the gorilla look I don't like. That may be a matter of personal taste but I don't think that is a problem since others have complained. I don't think anyone complained about the old Onos look. It looked mighty. It looked serious and mean not something that belongs in a tree.
On a side note:
I would also like the skulk view to follow the walls like in AVP but a lot of people hate that. It takes some time getting used to but once you get it down it is so much better and easier. If you have never done that you have no idea how fun it is. You can run circles around marines up and down walls and ceilings and really screw up their aim, while never losing sight of your target. I know a lot of people don't like this and refuse to learn how to do it. Why not include a toggle option for those of us who like it this way? Eventually everyone will switch to it because it is simply more effective. If you don't believe me go play AVP (especially the first one) for a couple of hours as an alien. Walk on walls and see how much easier it is to look while moving. As a skulk I find that I have to spend a lot of time watching out for every stupid little wedge on the wall that could make me lose grip and fall. I don't think that is what you intended, is it?
The skulk has a lot of trouble walking up walls without while following the target. It makes it very hard to dodge bullets on walls while attacking, because by the time you are on the ceiling you have no idea where the marine is. You would have to look around and that takes time. When you take fire you can't stop and look around you have to keep moving. Currently, the skulks ability to walk on walls is only useful as a way to ambush and hide, but not useful when it comes to dodging bullets. Skulks always end up bunny hopping on the ground instead, which doesn't quite fit in with their abilities on paper. I know I am repeating myself but I just want to make sure I drive the point.
It took me like 2 hours to edit and refine this and add everything I wanted to say ever since following the development of NS2. I have been following along since it was mentioned, but I never had time to come in and share my opinion. I most likely won't have time to come back and check here what people say. I'm 24 and no longer sit at the computer all day like I used to.
I have been playing NS since it came out, with occasional breaks. I will continue to follow along. I am fairly confident that it will come out alright in the end, you polished the hell out of NS as much as you could and that is why it lasted so long. I'm excited about dynamic infestation, dimming lights, emergency lighting etc..
As for devour, I like the idea of the attack, but I don't much care for the hit & run tactics it promotes, so removing it doesn't bother me. Someone will probably add it back as a mod anyway
I feel it is important to share my opinion since the Onos is taking a turn in a direction I am not happy about. I play NS regularly so I think I have some backing to my opinion and I feel that many others share my thoughts.
My biggest gripe is the look of the Onos. I like the old one much better. I don't like that gorilla look at all. It just doesn't look as threatening and mean. It looks like a gorilla wearing an Aztec mask. I think you should go back and redo it and keep it more traditional. This is not gonna help the deadline but if it's possible I would like it much better. I don't see anything wrong with the concept art, but that doesn't show the back side. At least change the backside and make it look more like the old Onos. It looked bigger, more menacing and more "OH S***!" inducing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I disagree. I feel the old Onos lacked any sort of real definition in the musculature. Kind of like an immensely fattened horse with a bone helmet on.
To me, the new Onos looks <i>powerful</i> It's gone on a heavy exercise regiment and converted all that fat in the back to lean muscle.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think what you do wrong is that you want to wow the community/audience by releasing somewhat completed bits but in doing so you have lost touch with it. If you presented the look in the concept art to us and had us choose like you did with the marine concept art you would have at least satisfied a majority. Think of the alternative - you spend precious time working on something that will be changed or scrapped later. Some of that will happen no matter what. My suggestion would be to present some concept art before going through with the modeling and animation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->They could check every single detail over with the community and let's be honest, the people who were going to whine will still do so. The only difference is that it would take them at least 3 times as long to get a game out for us. Personally, I think the new Onos *will* satisfy the majority, especially when you consider that (hopefully) that majority will wind up including a ton of people who've never seen NS1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like devour to stay. I know it's annoying sometimes when you get eaten as a marine. But NS is the only game where you can eat a player. That is huge. It's so satisfying when you eat a player. When I though of NS in my head all these months waiting for it I always was like "I wonder how devour will look. Maybe they will add some animation instead of having the marine just magically disappear in front of the Onos." I would imagine an Onos lifting a marine up in the air and shaking him up and down to aid ingestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They haven't actually said devour is leaving. They've just enumerated three other abilities. It's entirely possible that there are more and devour could be one of them. Looking at the text on the main page, it sounds like it is. That said, I don't like devour myself, as it tends to make for a cowardly onos that you can't really engage in any teamwork with because he's always trying to run away in order to digets h is meal.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I foresee a potential pitfall with Bone Shield but I don't have a decisive opinion if it should stay or not. I know for a fact that players don't play as a team most of the time. Voice chat helps somewhat but from my experience as a support Lerk goes like this:
Trying to Umbra a player to encourage him to attack doesn't work most of the time. I play a lot on pubs and teamwork is terrible. It's every man for himself and unfortunately that's what you'll have to work with. That said, my suggestion is to take it easy with team-oriented and teamwork dependent abilities. My prediction is that when an Onos uses Bone Shield, most players won't take advantage of it by following him and closing the distance. Bone Shield fortunately at least helps the Onos get closer to the marines, and I think that fits his role.
This may be different in a trained team environment, like a clan. But someone shouldn't have to belong to a clan to get the most out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a pure pub player. The answer to non-team playing folks is simple, don't help them. They'll go off and die, and the good players who help each other will do better. That said, your issue isn't one of teamwork, it's of playing with low skilled players who don't know how to take advantage of opportunities presented to them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to focus on making the game spectacular. Surely you don't want to waste our time working on features that will be taken out later on either. That's why you should release some concept art first. I understand all this, but I think Devour can stay and well the gorilla look I don't like. That may be a matter of personal taste but I don't think that is a problem since others have complained. I don't think anyone complained about the old Onos look. It looked mighty. It looked serious and mean not something that belongs in a tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I expect it is your personal taste. I never complained about the old onos look either, but that's only because there really wasn't anything to compare it to. Now there is and I by far prefer the new look.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note:
I would also like the skulk view to follow the walls like in AVP but a lot of people hate that. It takes some time getting used to but once you get it down it is so much better and easier. If you have never done that you have no idea how fun it is. You can run circles around marines up and down walls and ceilings and really screw up their aim, while never losing sight of your target. I know a lot of people don't like this and refuse to learn how to do it. Why not include a toggle option for those of us who like it this way? Eventually everyone will switch to it because it is simply more effective. If you don't believe me go play AVP (especially the first one) for a couple of hours as an alien. Walk on walls and see how much easier it is to look while moving. As a skulk I find that I have to spend a lot of time watching out for every stupid little wedge on the wall that could make me lose grip and fall. I don't think that is what you intended, is it?
The skulk has a lot of trouble walking up walls without while following the target. It makes it very hard to dodge bullets on walls while attacking, because by the time you are on the ceiling you have no idea where the marine is. You would have to look around and that takes time. When you take fire you can't stop and look around you have to keep moving. Currently, the skulks ability to walk on walls is only useful as a way to ambush and hide, but not useful when it comes to dodging bullets. Skulks always end up bunny hopping on the ground instead, which doesn't quite fit in with their abilities on paper. I know I am repeating myself but I just want to make sure I drive the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've got no experience with this, but I'm willing to give it a whirl, so I tend to agree with the toggle option.
I personally think Bone Shield sounds great, and totally fits the Onos' theme of an absolute living monstrosity, hopefully the attack delay form firing and deploying will be sufficient enough that a skilled player, with perhaps Regen, could use it as a poor man's redemption, or run first into a turret farm, hop in a corner, and bone shield while teammates rip it down. Using it to break a hive sieges by lumbering towards the marines will protecting YOUR ENTIRE TEAM from damage so they can get in close.
100% damage mitigation from the front, along with forced crawling. Not that movement speed will be the same, but really, a crouched bone shielding Onos lumbering down from the end of our mythological corridor? ######, sounds like a smoke break to me. Or "Comm, need a grenade launcher down here pronto."
Despite patches and upgrades, NS1 Onos, while being big and scary, didn't have the stats to back it up, and at higher tiers was still cannon fodder unless you had Carapace and a couple of gorges following you. Tier 3 marines were just a nightmare, bone shield gives back an edge, it allows the Onos to be the vanguard for the Aliens, which is, what I believe, to be the development team's intention. Not so much to be an individual wrecking ball, but monstrous vanguard unit, used to shatter the enemy's walls and allow the rest of the team in.
Look at Primal Scream and Stomp, coupled with it's high HP, those 2 moves make for an excellent NS1 vanguard, but you need TEAMWORK for it to work. This game has always been about teamwork, Devour, in my eyes, broke that necessity by giving the Onos a complete capability and justification for running around Solo. It immediately removed a target, and, with some good energy management with stomp and gores, probably allowed you to get a kill or 2 in, and run away. Boom, you killed enemies, and your also keeping another one potentially out of the game for up 20~ seconds. I am credit to team! Except, your team probably could have been better assisted when they assailed MS where Primal Scream and Stomp would have assisted them in winning the game.
Removing Devour, and adding in Bone Shield, in my eyes, is a solid nudge into the mentality of "I should really try to work with my team using this Onos' thing, because it's really hard to take these guys on myself, but when I do this Bone Shield thing and walk into the enemy fortifications, we seem to do really well."
My thoughts on Alien "Armor":
It seems too inorganic to me. It's true many natural creatures have "armor" but never have I seen any that look man-made. Those sharp lines, 90 degree angles... bleh. Think of a crab or a beetle... smooth, curved, flowing shells. Yes, I know some crabs and such have pointy things but the bits are still rounded. Trust me I know, I just dropped $70 bucks on King and Snow crabs! ;)
Don't get me wrong, I do love the Rhino head on the Silver-Back look but the blocky armor just ruins it for me. I think the Onos would look much better with Armadillo type armor. Or even if the edges were smoothed out more. Anyway, major kudos to the artist who made that, the Gorilla body is just amazing!
My two cents.
P.s. You should add "Onos" to the spell checker! lol
You guys said it could be overpowered, but it actually forces marines to move properly and not just "wait".
The onos ( one or two ) could move, shielded, and cover aliens that are right behind him. You still can use grenades to hit the aliens behind. You can spread out and wait him to make the first move, it makes the marines even more prepared ( no more surprise from the aliens ) !
I've read there are stunning weapons ; I guess it works on the onos aswell.
Still, having two onos would be quite imba. If you have seen how Spartans works in 300 ( the movie ), its pretty good :p Hard to do, but good.
Two or 3 shields, one dude ready right behind them. Then you release the shield for a few secs, let the fighter do his work, and then cover him at the right moment. The gorge stayed behind and can now heal the fighter. Repeat this until death.
But this combo looks useless in NS thou...
Just a few lines to say that a 100% resistant onos ain't imba ; just go back, wait him to make a mistake, he can't Gore while shielded anyway. Maybe adding a "Slowed when shot" during the shield time would be better.
Chances are that if you were close enough to get devoured, you were already dead.
6 on 6, 3 Onos devouring 3 Marines. Limit 1-2 Onos on a team, gg problem solved.
In other words... No devour, one of the most fun features of the game = No buy
Limiting other abilities while devouring a marine would be quite a good way to go about it. NOTHING made a marine as terrified when watching an Onos go zooming in, snag up one of their squad members only to zoom off again. It was fun both on the Marine side and the Alien side.
I'm disappointed in you, Devs, to remove one of the most unique traits of your game... The 'fun' aspect.
However, considering how overpowered Boneshield sounds, Devour is going to be the least of the complainers to worry about. I can hear the tears dripping on the pavement already.
In other words, innovation went out the window.