<!--quoteo(post=1724581:date=Aug 23 2009, 03:20 AM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Aug 23 2009, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only achievement we should be talking about is getting out the alpha. No achievements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 95% of the forum posting is irrelevant until alpha. I can't see anything bad in discussing about any feature as long as it keeps forum activity going.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited August 2009
This topic seems to be going the way of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/decoda/forums/index.php?showtopic=104013&hl=acheivements" target="_blank">the achievement thread's</a> original premise. Even though it's old, it seems like people are discussing the same thing here.
Edit: Thread Summary: <!--quoteo(post=1712063:date=Jun 12 2009, 03:46 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 12 2009, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A quick overview of the discussion in this thread: <ul><li> Don't base achievement on traditional "stat-######" features such as:<ul><li> Pure kill count</li><li> Pure damage done</li><li> Pure Kill/Death ratio</li></ul> because these acheivements don't encourage cooperative play.<ul><li> Main point of contention is that the kills, deaths, and damage are equally important to winning the game.</li><li> Proposed resolution is adding kill and damage acheivements that demonstratively benefit the team(ie: Kharaa killed near a mobile siege as opposed to pure kills or damage to RTs instead of just damage)</li></ul></li><li> Achievements can be a learning tool for new and moderate players by encouraging unintuitive behaviours.<ul><li> This could also be used to separate "newbies" from "the rest", but enforcement is controversial.</li><li> There was a misconception originally that this would be used to rank players(because of the thread linked in the OP), but that idea was universally discarded.</li></ul></li><li> Add UnderAchievements to show players what they're doing wrong in a humorous way.</li><li> General agreement that acheivements shouldn't have unlocks that effect gameplay in any way</li><li> Idea that acheivements are only awarded to groups of players(a bit too limiting IMO)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only way I'd agree to achievements would be if they were invisible so you don't know what you have to do to get them. You can get them by accident and go "Hah, cool!" but you wont know how to get them so that you wont go out of your way to do them, i.e, it wont ruin gameplay. But then again, once people find out what you need to do that's all ruined anyway. I still say no to achievements. They detract from gameplay as people have mentioned before. Lucky for me it wont happen anyways since it's a waste of precious time for the devs to do that.
The most interesting achievements, to me, are the ones that you earn by doing things that don't usually come up in a normal game playing the normal way. Unfortunately, those are exactly the type of achievements that detract from teamplay, by convincing lots of people to skip the normal effective plan and just hope they can earn the "fluke" achieves by trying ineffective plans repeatedly until one of them randomly works.
Thus, I am opposed to achievements in a game like NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1724772:date=Aug 24 2009, 05:05 PM:name=Metro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metro @ Aug 24 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only way I'd agree to achievements would be if they were invisible so you don't know what you have to do to get them. You can get them by accident and go "Hah, cool!" but you wont know how to get them so that you wont go out of your way to do them, i.e, it wont ruin gameplay. But then again, once people find out what you need to do that's all ruined anyway. I still say no to achievements. They detract from gameplay as people have mentioned before. Lucky for me it wont happen anyways since it's a waste of precious time for the devs to do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Invisible achievements might be quite nice.
Maybe the basic learning stuff could be visible all the time and later on the invisible achievements could point out fun facts from your game.
<!--quoteo(post=1724780:date=Aug 24 2009, 01:59 PM:name=Sumo-Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sumo-Soldier @ Aug 24 2009, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->achievements r for xbox newbs...we are better than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This statement and all other likes it say more about the speaker than anything else. I don't see why a good idea should be ignored because some people want to be elitist.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=1724668:date=Aug 23 2009, 03:27 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 23 2009, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're willing to keep them simple it works indeed. I don't know how far they can go though. It wouldn't probably be worth the implementation if all the achievements are unlocked after 2 hrs of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tutorials rarely if ever last longer than two hours and require a much larger amount of work to be implemented. Achievements that encourage good behavior can serve as a soft tutorial to newer players by giving them notifications and a simple pat on the head when they did something right.
It won't take a lot of work to do and could contribute to new players having an easier and more importantly more fun time learning the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1724784:date=Aug 24 2009, 06:21 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Aug 24 2009, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tutorials rarely if ever last longer than two hours and require a much larger amount of work to be implemented. Achievements that encourage good behavior can serve as a soft tutorial to newer players by giving them notifications and a simple pat on the head when they did something right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're probably right. It depends quite a bit on the nature of tasks in NS2 and how they are explained best, but I definitely see where you're going with this.
No to achievements imo, I think if anything it interrupts the 'continuity' of the game atmosphere. Consider, you're walking through a dank service-way with another rine, lights flickering, ominous guttural growling in the distance - basically all the sexy NS atmosphere we've gotten used to. Then, you get attacked by a single skulk who was hiding in a vent above you - your buddy tazer's the skulk and POW he flashes a little (insert whatever achievement anim you want), and the chat window gets spammed with "Marine X got achievement 'Zaaaaap!'". Wow. Really part of the atmosphere. This kind if jarring back to reality, that you're in a computer game rather than in your own little scifi combat experience sucks ass.
Detracts from gameplay imo, in TF2 most ppl seem driven to get achievements, the objective of the match quite irrelevant in most cases. I stopped playing because it became a chore, valve dangles the new weapon unlocks in front of you, and suddenly I realise I'm not playing the game for fun, but because I feel I have to/should to get access to content I paid for, and also for e-peen. Haven't played it in weeks, sick of the monotony and shallowness.
I would also like to add that part of what makes NS1 so great is the inherent reward system built into the game. A teams success in any given round is based on how they handle themselves throughout the duration of the match and the payoff is that hilarious and fun portion of the game after the "tipping point" where your team just dominates the other team. Its such a visceral and satisfying reward for the hard work you did during the early/mid-game to give your team that much needed edge. That being said I think adding a secondary small reward system to the game would detract from that overwhelming satisfaction as instead of a player being rewarded for the summation of his/his teams actions, he will be rewarded intermittently for much smaller less useful actions.
Now I know some would say that those achievements can be tailored to foment positive actions amongst players, such as capping RT's or welding teammates, but I feel like that REALLY detracts from the romance of NS. A teams success should be completely determined by their motivation to win the round, not by some silly personal goals of individual marines. I just recently played a game of NS1 where I was on a truly motivated marine team that held off an alien onslaught for over an hour without a single RT (even withstanding a 6 onos rush), we even managed to push out and cap an RT (our moral victory :P). That kind of motivated game play comes from the intrinsic mechanics of the grand reward system in NS, not from frivolous short sighted rewards.
There is also the idea that achievements could help those new to the game learn more quickly how to perform useful tasks for their team. While that sounds great on paper I still think it detracts from yet another interesting aspect of NS. NS is at its core a VERY complicated game. The mechanics of the game are, however, much more straight forward. Part of the great fun of NS was learning these subtleties that were not immediately apparent upon learning the mechanics of the game. Spoon feeding new players these subtleties removes the thrill of discovery and creativity of the individual to make out of the game what he/she wants. At most the devs should simply try to clearly explain the mechanics of the game, not "how" your supposed to play it.
Conclusion: Achievements just don't work well with the NS universe.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I don't really care for achievements or not, I'm not much of a hardcore player but i like having a bit of fun from time to time. But achievements are always kind of rewarding and some can be fun, so this thread got me thinking.
Reading through the comments this is what stands out for me.
>Achievements make you lose focus of what your supposed to do.
>Achievements can be good for newbs if they set them on the right track
>Too big numbers (ei devour 500 HA) is not relevant to A game
>it detracts your attention
What about PASSIVE achievements? Achievements that tell you what you (and your teammates) did right during the round. In that case you only really need to know what you got AFTER the round. Achievements could be CUMULATIVE too. Not more than once in a round but you could have your total of all your games. They can level up in a way. They start bronze. Once you get 10 of them they go silver and so on. These would be more like veteran badges.
They would reward the casual player on the round, and the no-life on his total. They wont be that important and you'll probably not care about them but its nice to remember after the round what happened. It could also be a way to know what your teammates like doing for the team. Has he got more commanding badges? support badges? attack badges? or what not.
I have no idea what these achievements could be, and not imposing anything but here's a draft of an idea on how they could be implemented.
<!--quoteo(post=1724867:date=Aug 25 2009, 05:20 AM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Aug 25 2009, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now I know some would say that those achievements can be tailored to foment positive actions amongst players, such as capping RT's or welding teammates, but <b>I feel like that REALLY detracts from the romance of NS</b>. <b>A teams success should be completely determined by their motivation to win the round, not by some silly personal goals of individual marines</b>. I just recently played a game of NS1 where I was on a truly motivated marine team that held off an alien onslaught for over an hour without a single RT (even withstanding a 6 onos rush), we even managed to push out and cap an RT (our moral victory :P). That kind of motivated game play comes from the intrinsic mechanics of the grand reward system in NS, not from frivolous short sighted rewards.
There is also the idea that achievements could help those new to the game learn more quickly how to perform useful tasks for their team. While that sounds great on paper I still think it detracts from yet another interesting aspect of NS. <b>NS is at its core a VERY complicated game.</b> The mechanics of the game are, however, much more straight forward. Part of the great fun of NS was learning these subtleties that were not immediately apparent upon learning the mechanics of the game. <b>Spoon feeding new players these subtleties</b> removes the thrill of discovery and creativity of the individual to make out of the game what he/she wants. At most the devs should simply try to clearly explain the mechanics of the game, not "how" your supposed to play it.
Conclusion: Achievements just don't work well with the NS universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I don't agree there is a romance to NS, but if there was, it would exists when the people you play with are at the same skill level. Being a new player among new players has a "romance" to it. Being a learned player among learned players has a romance to it. Being a new player among learned players does NOT have a romance to it because you will just be outmatched in a complicated game, barely knowing what to do. 2. The majority of people play games to have fun and more than anything, individualistic. There is a reason why purely socialism system (in lieu of a capitalist, socialist hybrid) does not work. 3. ...NS2 is going to be complicated game and because of that, we shouldn't add achievements designed to help players learn it? By this logic, NS2 should have zero assistance to new players (tool tips, tutorials .etc). 4. If a subtle piece of game play can be explained in a single achievement that activates when you accomplish something, then it's not subtle.
Comments
95% of the forum posting is irrelevant until alpha. I can't see anything bad in discussing about any feature as long as it keeps forum activity going.
Edit:
Thread Summary:
<!--quoteo(post=1712063:date=Jun 12 2009, 03:46 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 12 2009, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A quick overview of the discussion in this thread:
<ul><li> Don't base achievement on traditional "stat-######" features such as:<ul><li> Pure kill count</li><li> Pure damage done</li><li> Pure Kill/Death ratio</li></ul> because these acheivements don't encourage cooperative play.<ul><li> Main point of contention is that the kills, deaths, and damage are equally important to winning the game.</li><li> Proposed resolution is adding kill and damage acheivements that demonstratively benefit the team(ie: Kharaa killed near a mobile siege as opposed to pure kills or damage to RTs instead of just damage)</li></ul></li><li> Achievements can be a learning tool for new and moderate players by encouraging unintuitive behaviours.<ul><li> This could also be used to separate "newbies" from "the rest", but enforcement is controversial.</li><li> There was a misconception originally that this would be used to rank players(because of the thread linked in the OP), but that idea was universally discarded.</li></ul></li><li> Add UnderAchievements to show players what they're doing wrong in a humorous way.</li><li> General agreement that acheivements shouldn't have unlocks that effect gameplay in any way</li><li> Idea that acheivements are only awarded to groups of players(a bit too limiting IMO)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus, I am opposed to achievements in a game like NS.
Invisible achievements might be quite nice.
Maybe the basic learning stuff could be visible all the time and later on the invisible achievements could point out fun facts from your game.
This statement and all other likes it say more about the speaker than anything else. I don't see why a good idea should be ignored because some people want to be elitist.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1724668:date=Aug 23 2009, 03:27 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 23 2009, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're willing to keep them simple it works indeed. I don't know how far they can go though. It wouldn't probably be worth the implementation if all the achievements are unlocked after 2 hrs of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tutorials rarely if ever last longer than two hours and require a much larger amount of work to be implemented. Achievements that encourage good behavior can serve as a soft tutorial to newer players by giving them notifications and a simple pat on the head when they did something right.
It won't take a lot of work to do and could contribute to new players having an easier and more importantly more fun time learning the game.
You're probably right. It depends quite a bit on the nature of tasks in NS2 and how they are explained best, but I definitely see where you're going with this.
Detracts from gameplay imo, in TF2 most ppl seem driven to get achievements, the objective of the match quite irrelevant in most cases. I stopped playing because it became a chore, valve dangles the new weapon unlocks in front of you, and suddenly I realise I'm not playing the game for fun, but because I feel I have to/should to get access to content I paid for, and also for e-peen. Haven't played it in weeks, sick of the monotony and shallowness.
Now I know some would say that those achievements can be tailored to foment positive actions amongst players, such as capping RT's or welding teammates, but I feel like that REALLY detracts from the romance of NS. A teams success should be completely determined by their motivation to win the round, not by some silly personal goals of individual marines. I just recently played a game of NS1 where I was on a truly motivated marine team that held off an alien onslaught for over an hour without a single RT (even withstanding a 6 onos rush), we even managed to push out and cap an RT (our moral victory :P). That kind of motivated game play comes from the intrinsic mechanics of the grand reward system in NS, not from frivolous short sighted rewards.
There is also the idea that achievements could help those new to the game learn more quickly how to perform useful tasks for their team. While that sounds great on paper I still think it detracts from yet another interesting aspect of NS. NS is at its core a VERY complicated game. The mechanics of the game are, however, much more straight forward. Part of the great fun of NS was learning these subtleties that were not immediately apparent upon learning the mechanics of the game. Spoon feeding new players these subtleties removes the thrill of discovery and creativity of the individual to make out of the game what he/she wants. At most the devs should simply try to clearly explain the mechanics of the game, not "how" your supposed to play it.
Conclusion: Achievements just don't work well with the NS universe.
Single handedly beat a full health Fade using only your knife.
Heck yeah!
Reading through the comments this is what stands out for me.
>Achievements make you lose focus of what your supposed to do.
>Achievements can be good for newbs if they set them on the right track
>Too big numbers (ei devour 500 HA) is not relevant to A game
>it detracts your attention
What about PASSIVE achievements?
Achievements that tell you what you (and your teammates) did right during the round. In that case you only really need to know what you got AFTER the round. Achievements could be CUMULATIVE too. Not more than once in a round but you could have your total of all your games. They can level up in a way. They start bronze. Once you get 10 of them they go silver and so on. These would be more like veteran badges.
They would reward the casual player on the round, and the no-life on his total. They wont be that important and you'll probably not care about them but its nice to remember after the round what happened. It could also be a way to know what your teammates like doing for the team. Has he got more commanding badges? support badges? attack badges? or what not.
I have no idea what these achievements could be, and not imposing anything but here's a draft of an idea on how they could be implemented.
Ben
There is also the idea that achievements could help those new to the game learn more quickly how to perform useful tasks for their team. While that sounds great on paper I still think it detracts from yet another interesting aspect of NS. <b>NS is at its core a VERY complicated game.</b> The mechanics of the game are, however, much more straight forward. Part of the great fun of NS was learning these subtleties that were not immediately apparent upon learning the mechanics of the game. <b>Spoon feeding new players these subtleties</b> removes the thrill of discovery and creativity of the individual to make out of the game what he/she wants. At most the devs should simply try to clearly explain the mechanics of the game, not "how" your supposed to play it.
Conclusion: Achievements just don't work well with the NS universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I don't agree there is a romance to NS, but if there was, it would exists when the people you play with are at the same skill level. Being a new player among new players has a "romance" to it. Being a learned player among learned players has a romance to it. Being a new player among learned players does NOT have a romance to it because you will just be outmatched in a complicated game, barely knowing what to do.
2. The majority of people play games to have fun and more than anything, individualistic. There is a reason why purely socialism system (in lieu of a capitalist, socialist hybrid) does not work.
3. ...NS2 is going to be complicated game and because of that, we shouldn't add achievements designed to help players learn it? By this logic, NS2 should have zero assistance to new players (tool tips, tutorials .etc).
4. If a subtle piece of game play can be explained in a single achievement that activates when you accomplish something, then it's not subtle.