Will history repeat itself?
xtcmen
Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">A request... you owe it us.</div>A few years ago the NS forums went down for quite a while. Those not not familiar with what I'm talking about I've drawn things out on a time line.
Went something like this:
Summertime: NS Forums go offline
September-October: NS team claims site will go up in a few weeks (or month or 2?)
Site becomes online again the following Year (I think around October?)
During this downtime, the player-base extremely decreased. Think of the NS Forums as the main Fort , and all the independent communities as standalone cities. The Main fort goes down, and each community because its own entity. The communication between the Main Fort, and all the various NS communities was lost. Thus, the NS community became like different Fraternity houses on the Row. No one really talked to each other, and everyone minded their own business in their own house (server).
This event has never left my mind. It is the reason why I never pre-ordered NS2. We were promised a Fall Release, and it is still nowhere in sight. They told us they were going to showcase the game at PAX, and there was not even a Forum topic explaining to the community why they could not make it this year. Instead, it was a reply to a forum topic. Did the NS team really think every forum member looks at every topic?
So the team releases a pre-order of the game, and many loyal fans paid for the special edition version, of hopes of an early version by late summer - early fall. All of these people paid Forty dollars on a game with no actual gameplay footage. The only videos released were engine showcases, and some alien reveals.
We are now in early October, with twitter updates of features still being added into the game. Which is pretty scary considering there is going to be an Alpha, and Beta testing before the final release.
Now I know a lot of game developers rarely meet deadlines (Blizzard anyone?! lol), but the NS team has always been on the chopping block for me these past few years. I was on my toes all summer, excited to play a new version of NS. I have not completely lost hope in this development team, but I refuse to pay a cent to the developers untill I see ACTUAL gameplay footage.
Is it too much to ask? We were promised a Fall '09 release and we're in fall. Many people have paid for your game, and I'm sure many people want to see how it is looking thus far.
Went something like this:
Summertime: NS Forums go offline
September-October: NS team claims site will go up in a few weeks (or month or 2?)
Site becomes online again the following Year (I think around October?)
During this downtime, the player-base extremely decreased. Think of the NS Forums as the main Fort , and all the independent communities as standalone cities. The Main fort goes down, and each community because its own entity. The communication between the Main Fort, and all the various NS communities was lost. Thus, the NS community became like different Fraternity houses on the Row. No one really talked to each other, and everyone minded their own business in their own house (server).
This event has never left my mind. It is the reason why I never pre-ordered NS2. We were promised a Fall Release, and it is still nowhere in sight. They told us they were going to showcase the game at PAX, and there was not even a Forum topic explaining to the community why they could not make it this year. Instead, it was a reply to a forum topic. Did the NS team really think every forum member looks at every topic?
So the team releases a pre-order of the game, and many loyal fans paid for the special edition version, of hopes of an early version by late summer - early fall. All of these people paid Forty dollars on a game with no actual gameplay footage. The only videos released were engine showcases, and some alien reveals.
We are now in early October, with twitter updates of features still being added into the game. Which is pretty scary considering there is going to be an Alpha, and Beta testing before the final release.
Now I know a lot of game developers rarely meet deadlines (Blizzard anyone?! lol), but the NS team has always been on the chopping block for me these past few years. I was on my toes all summer, excited to play a new version of NS. I have not completely lost hope in this development team, but I refuse to pay a cent to the developers untill I see ACTUAL gameplay footage.
Is it too much to ask? We were promised a Fall '09 release and we're in fall. Many people have paid for your game, and I'm sure many people want to see how it is looking thus far.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Went something like this:
Summertime: NS Forums go offline
September-October: NS team claims site will go up in a few weeks (or month or 2?)
Site becomes online again the following Year (I think around October?)
During this downtime, the player-base extremely decreased. Think of the NS Forums as the main Fort , and all the independent communities as standalone cities. The Main fort goes down, and each community because its own entity. The communication between the Main Fort, and all the various NS communities was lost. Thus, the NS community became like different Fraternity houses on the Row. No one really talked to each other, and everyone minded their own business in their own house (server).
This event has never left my mind. It is the reason why I never pre-ordered NS2. We were promised a Fall Release, and it is still nowhere in sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll start off saying it does seem like they are behind schedule. However considering they are still within their time frame to release a build of the game (1 September – 30 November) I don't see the point of this thread other then you saying the forum went down for an extended period a few years ago and this is somehow indicative of the development of NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1730923:date=Oct 6 2009, 02:39 PM:name=xtcmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xtcmen @ Oct 6 2009, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They told us they were going to showcase the game at PAX, and there was not even a Forum topic explaining to the community why they could not make it this year. Instead, it was a reply to a forum topic. Did the NS team really think every forum member looks at every topic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that was out of left field.
<!--quoteo(post=1730923:date=Oct 6 2009, 02:39 PM:name=xtcmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xtcmen @ Oct 6 2009, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the team releases a pre-order of the game, and many loyal fans paid for the special edition version, of hopes of an early version by late summer - early fall. All of these people paid Forty dollars on a game with no actual gameplay footage. The only videos released were engine showcases, and some alien reveals.
We are now in early October, with twitter updates of features still being added into the game. Which is pretty scary considering there is going to be an Alpha, and Beta testing before the final release.
Now I know a lot of game developers rarely meet deadlines (Blizzard anyone?! lol), but the NS team has always been on the chopping block for me these past few years. I was on my toes all summer, excited to play a new version of NS. I have not completely lost hope in this development team, but I refuse to pay a cent to the developers untill I see ACTUAL gameplay footage.
Is it too much to ask? We were promised a Fall '09 release and we're in fall. Many people have paid for your game, and I'm sure many people want to see how it is looking thus far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't think they owe you much, considering you want the benefits of an alpha/beta/early build but your not willing to pre-order. To the rest, yeah they owe us a game, and fingers crossed there is a release in Fall.
Yeah, they don't really owe anything if you haven't paid.
Would you buy a car without looking at it?
seriously threads like this arent going to speed up the dev process
they will show gameplay when they are ready
Games are delayed ALL the time. If it delayed by a month or two who cares, as long as they don't rush it.
No, but I also wouldn't say the dealer owed me anything until after I put down money.
edit:
Looking back, I see you didn't explicitly say that they owe you...
But honestly if you don't want to preorder that's completely your prerogative. The thing is, holding back your money does not give you any leverage with UWE, and since they don't owe you anything you don't really have a right to be irritated.
Most of the people who preordered didn't even do it because they were counting on a Fall release. They did it because they wanted to support UWE and the game which they love -- this is shown by the fact that 95% of preorders were the special edition.
Uh... So don't preorder. No one has a gun to your head. The devs aren't begging you to preorder. They just made it an option because people expressed interest in helping them out.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=xtcmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xtcmen)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the team releases a pre-order of the game, and many loyal fans paid for the special edition version, of hopes of an early version by late summer - early fall. All of these people paid Forty dollars on a game with no actual gameplay footage. The only videos released were engine showcases, and some alien reveals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You presume to speak for everyone who preordered and their motives? I'm a loyal fan and I paid for the special edition because I spent more time playing NS1 than any retail game. Please don't lump "loyal fans" together with you. You haven't preordered, yet you're demanding gameplay footage / a release because "the people who preordered deserve it". Meh.
Yes its annoying sometimes that its not here, but natural selection is what it is. I approach it now knowing that they are putting in alot of effort, and have been trying. Im more afraid they could burn out at this point in time. The game will be here when its ready. I dont want a half finished, buggy as all hell piece of shizen.
Can we just keep supporting them, exercise extra amounts of patience, let it happen how its gonna happen?
But....
x amount of time put into development = a so good game
x^infinity amount of time = perfect game
What should be taken out of his post, or at least that particular part of his post, is that he does not trust the development team now due to big mistakes that they made in the past. This is not an illogical opinion at all, but the issue should be looked at a little bit more deeply.
At that time in the NS Universe's life, <b>everything</b> was undergoing a huge transition. Natural Selection was no longer to be a hobbyist created project, it was now a company backed modification. Unknown Worlds was to be a fully fledged company with actual hired on-site employees (Max, Cory...) and a need for income (Zen of Sudoku). There was a need for not only lawyers but also investors to get any wheels turning! And who can forget that, at around this time, Charlie even wanted Natural Selection 1 as it was to become a boxed, retail product? Unknown Worlds as a company needed a new website to front their company, and unfortunately our beloved natural-selection.org had to take the brunt of that.
In the end, while it is miserable for a website to be down for an entire year, that amount of time is <b>absolutely nothing</b> in comparison to the whole lifespan of a company.
Don´t buy the game early if you cant wait for it to be done. Go play in the sun and check back n in six months, I promise you will not miss much in the mean time.
See you then!
More money = more freelancers, which means the game will be made faster.
So, man up, buy the game and U'll get it faster. Quit complaining, the Devs owe you nothing.
I understand you want to see gameplay videos, but I'm sure they're release some when they're ready and then you'll no longer have to be on the fence like you are now.
So yeah we understand that most people aren't going to pre-order and those that do will often wait until they see more media from us. That's totally understandable. However, the people that did pre-order already have helped us a great deal and we are very happy about that. If you can be patient with us, we will give you a great game.
Nice to see some words from Flayra there, maybe some community members will get off their high-horses and come out of the mindset of consumer ######ism (sp?) where they "own" the game because they've paid for it.
It's irrelevant anyway because the devs will do what they will and no amount of whinging will magically transfer control of the game out of their hands.
So yeah we understand that most people aren't going to pre-order and those that do will often wait until they see more media from us. That's totally understandable. However, the people that did pre-order already have helped us a great deal and we are very happy about that. If you can be patient with us, we will give you a great game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. But you UW guys must remember that the community is asking much more for media than the game itself (most people dont care to wait longer, as long as the game is better).
You've quoted some big games like TF2, Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3. Yeah, they are taking/took soooooooo long time to come out, and people are not complaining too much with that fact.
I just want to remember you that even those "big company games" release <b>lots</b> of media much time before the official release. Just take Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 as examples. How much screenshots/videos did Blizzard release for those games? Yeah, many of them, specially for Diablo 3, as it is so far from being released.
And, <b>no, Blizzard is not making "holywood-like" movies for those video previews, they're just recording some basic in-game videos, with few features being showed and nothing more. No background music, no special effects, just something like opening up FRAPS, running the game, walking around for 1-2 minutes, closing game, saving/encoding video and posting it on the Web</b>.
I remember that I've seen you guys saying that it takes TOO MUCH TIME to release a video. Well, I have to disagree, based on the Blizzard videos fact.
We don't want preview videos being made like great movies, <b>we just want some media, something that shows us the game, not the technology that UW is using. I don't think it's too hard to understand that people don't care for modeling/texturing video, they just want the game as it is.</b>
Cory has posted some months ago that UW already have a lot of material for the game done, just like the "Armory" was done since Dezember2008/January2009.
Well, if you guys really have so many things done, why not post the skulk walking around a map in a 3rd person view? (I'm not going to ask for a Marine walking video as the mocap is still in progress, I belive).
It's simple: <b>We don't want videos with lots of useless special effects, we just want something like "home-made" video, just the way that all other big companies do months before releasing a game.</b>
PS: Yes, I've already pre-ordered the game (Special Edition) and I don't care for waiting some more months. I just want a game as free of bugs as possible.
I think, as a semi-developing semi-gaming type I'd much prefer the development blog to a couple of in-game videos any day of the week. UWE has released more media than any other gaming company pre-purchase for AAA title. Think about that.
I think, as a semi-developing semi-gaming type I'd much prefer the development blog to a couple of in-game videos any day of the week. UWE has released more media than any other gaming company pre-purchase for AAA title. Think about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they didn't.
EA has a tweeter, too. (Let's not put the EA quality as a game company in the talking, please)
I'm not complaining that the game is taking long to be released, I'm just remembering the devs that other big companies release in-game videos without many special effects. In fact, they are very simples videos like anyone can make in their own PC.
If UW has something to show, it's as simple as recording anything with FRAPS and posting it. That would take something like 10 minutes of their day for sure.
UWE, 4 or 5 in their team I believe.
Could you quit whining already, they're a small team not a huge team. You won't get yourself anything in-game from this.
The majority of us have paid for the game already and they can't lose us as customers.
Have patience and do something else, play other games.
1. Preorder NS2 Special Edition.
2. Ease your mind by playing alot original NS
3. Profit
Thats what i do. Original game is still kickass and still has so much to give, so i could wait to 2011 if it takes that.
You've quoted some big games like TF2, Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3. Yeah, they are taking/took soooooooo long time to come out, and people are not complaining too much with that fact.
I just want to remember you that even those "big company games" release <b>lots</b> of media much time before the official release. Just take Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 as examples. How much screenshots/videos did Blizzard release for those games? Yeah, many of them, specially for Diablo 3, as it is so far from being released.
And, <b>no, Blizzard is not making "holywood-like" movies for those video previews, they're just recording some basic in-game videos, with few features being showed and nothing more. No background music, no special effects, just something like opening up FRAPS, running the game, walking around for 1-2 minutes, closing game, saving/encoding video and posting it on the Web</b>.
I remember that I've seen you guys saying that it takes TOO MUCH TIME to release a video. Well, I have to disagree, based on the Blizzard videos fact.
We don't want preview videos being made like great movies, <b>we just want some media, something that shows us the game, not the technology that UW is using. I don't think it's too hard to understand that people don't care for modeling/texturing video, they just want the game as it is.</b>
Cory has posted some months ago that UW already have a lot of material for the game done, just like the "Armory" was done since Dezember2008/January2009.
Well, if you guys really have so many things done, why not post the skulk walking around a map in a 3rd person view? (I'm not going to ask for a Marine walking video as the mocap is still in progress, I belive).
It's simple: <b>We don't want videos with lots of useless special effects, we just want something like "home-made" video, just the way that all other big companies do months before releasing a game.</b>
PS: Yes, I've already pre-ordered the game (Special Edition) and I don't care for waiting some more months. I just want a game as free of bugs as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In reality, Blizzard has an incredible capital to spend on things that don't get the game out sooner. I'm sure they have teams of people for each game who simply work on marketing, making videos, planning the next video, figuring out the proper release date for the video, etc. All the people responsible for making NS2, making it good, making it work, probably number less than one of those marketing teams. They don't have the time to waste on videos because they have to get the game finished with what they have. Unknown Worlds isn't Bungie. It isn't Blizzard. It isn't Valve. But it is trying to make a game of the same quality that those huge teams with lots of money can. Cut them some slack.
So yeah we understand that most people aren't going to pre-order and those that do will often wait until they see more media from us. That's totally understandable. However, the people that did pre-order already have helped us a great deal and we are very happy about that. If you can be patient with us, we will give you a great game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree with most of what you said, but comparing NS2 to some games that were damn near vaporware like the ones you listed is a little unfair :P
UWE, 4 or 5 in their team I believe.
Could you quit whining already, they're a small team not a huge team. You won't get yourself anything in-game from this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you've read my post completely.
I told (twice) that I'm not impatient as for the release date. I don't mind waiting some time more.
And I'm not putting pressure on them. I've paid for something that I was already expecting.
I'm being realistic. 10 minutes is not much time, and is enough to record the simple in-game video that the community wants.
As you may have noticed, based on my posts count, I'm not a "whiner".
And a company <b>should hear it's customers cautiously</b>. What if Blizzard didn't hear the community and continued developing Starcraft 2 with that childish-coloured graphic thing? Yea, the game would sell like water anyway, but Blizzard's name wouldn't be the same anymore.