NS2 - a 2.5D game ?
borsuk
Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Members
Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Members
<div class="IPBDescription">(commander mode putting restrictions on map design)</div>Hi
I remember NS2 developers saying that commander mode in NS2 is going to put some restrictions on map design. This is because commander only has top-down view, and with multiple levels one over another it would be difficult or impossible to realize what's going on.
I'm concerned by this, because it could make NS2 a 2.5D game instead of a 3D game. Like a DooM engine game, where you can have floors and ceilings at different levels, but never one room directly over another.
I'm one of first people to say that 3D is highly overrated (and limiting !) in many games when compared to 2D game engines. It's easy to see few game genres actually use 3D engines. 3D <b>gameplay</b> as opposed to 3D <b>graphics</b>.
Whenever a significant feature becomes mainstream in games, be it 3D, physics, or some fancy graphic effects - first games tend to make exaggerated use of it. I remember very well tons of games with ugly, blocky graphics, highly annoying camera micromanagement, clipping through walls etc. Making games 3D for the sake of 3D - Worms serries is dead.. .It can be said that the situation has stabilised, but - guess what ? Awful lot of games are in fact 2D games with 3D graphics. Warcraft3, Starcraft2, Diablo2 and 3, countless games where you actually move your character on a plane rather than in 3D space.
But shooters are one of the very few genres where 3D gameplay works very well. I understand the danger of making things unclear for commander in NS2, but hopefully it can be solved without - in my opinion - drastic measures. This is a screenshot from my favourite map editor, back from days when I used to make maps for quake2.
<a href="http://quark.sourceforge.net/pics/features/quark_mapeditor1.gif" target="_blank">http://quark.sourceforge.net/pics/features..._mapeditor1.gif</a>
QuArK uses interesting approach. Rather having 3 projections by default for each of the axes (X, Y, Z), it has just two. Of course you can enable 3 projections if you like. The point is, it's easier for newbies. You can rotate the 2 default projections by clicking on the compass. This way, you can have the screen divided into only 2 projections, rather than 3. Splitting the screen into 3 parts means each of them can cover only a small area. With 2 projections you can see more on each of them, and rotating is still easy. In NS2, you could have 2 projections and ability to rotate view (in X axis only) with 3rd mouse button.
Thoughts ?
I remember NS2 developers saying that commander mode in NS2 is going to put some restrictions on map design. This is because commander only has top-down view, and with multiple levels one over another it would be difficult or impossible to realize what's going on.
I'm concerned by this, because it could make NS2 a 2.5D game instead of a 3D game. Like a DooM engine game, where you can have floors and ceilings at different levels, but never one room directly over another.
I'm one of first people to say that 3D is highly overrated (and limiting !) in many games when compared to 2D game engines. It's easy to see few game genres actually use 3D engines. 3D <b>gameplay</b> as opposed to 3D <b>graphics</b>.
Whenever a significant feature becomes mainstream in games, be it 3D, physics, or some fancy graphic effects - first games tend to make exaggerated use of it. I remember very well tons of games with ugly, blocky graphics, highly annoying camera micromanagement, clipping through walls etc. Making games 3D for the sake of 3D - Worms serries is dead.. .It can be said that the situation has stabilised, but - guess what ? Awful lot of games are in fact 2D games with 3D graphics. Warcraft3, Starcraft2, Diablo2 and 3, countless games where you actually move your character on a plane rather than in 3D space.
But shooters are one of the very few genres where 3D gameplay works very well. I understand the danger of making things unclear for commander in NS2, but hopefully it can be solved without - in my opinion - drastic measures. This is a screenshot from my favourite map editor, back from days when I used to make maps for quake2.
<a href="http://quark.sourceforge.net/pics/features/quark_mapeditor1.gif" target="_blank">http://quark.sourceforge.net/pics/features..._mapeditor1.gif</a>
QuArK uses interesting approach. Rather having 3 projections by default for each of the axes (X, Y, Z), it has just two. Of course you can enable 3 projections if you like. The point is, it's easier for newbies. You can rotate the 2 default projections by clicking on the compass. This way, you can have the screen divided into only 2 projections, rather than 3. Splitting the screen into 3 parts means each of them can cover only a small area. With 2 projections you can see more on each of them, and rotating is still easy. In NS2, you could have 2 projections and ability to rotate view (in X axis only) with 3rd mouse button.
Thoughts ?
Comments
One thing to remember on the locations used for NS is that they are space ships or stations and they have restrictions based on broken doors/ collapsed walls etc, that can keep the game play to a 2d like map and still have over and under points. There were plenty of maps with railings over the lower area that kept it from being completely 2d.
I don't think the rooms over other rooms would really bring anything to game play just by having them. Sure it makes the maps more complex, but referencing a 2d map is complicated enough in a multiplayer game in my opinion.
I don't think the game would be hurt too much by being 2.5d, but it would certainly be cooler if it had full 3d rooms-on-rooms.
You are right to some degree, but I'm a big fan of assymetric maps in team shooters. For this reason I love Enemy Territory games, especially the Wolfenstein one. Natural Selection is even less symmetric, you have classes which have no direct equivalents. Hell, there are no classes among marines, per se.
Keeping track of all 3 dimensions can be harder, but imagine a map which is mostly vertical with just few rooms on the sides. Say, marines start at the top, aliens have their base directly below them. Instead of typical corridor fights, it would be 90% about ladders, elevators and stairwells. Humans would have to descend to the depths of hell and blow the aliens up. It would probably not be a very Onos-friendly map, but it could be mitigated to a degree by placing cargo elevators here and there, especially if they're one way only :-> .
That's still perfectly possible without putting rooms underneath each other. Just make the map layout in a downward spiral shape with levels, each level connects to the next below/above it via stairs or ladders, maybe an elevator here or there to bypass an entire level, in the centre. Make each level colour coded with a possible painted number on the floor, for the industrial aesthetic feel and so the commander can easily recognise which level is which.
Wasn't there a map just like that in NS with a missile silo or something? I always remembered it playing poorly for some reason I can't remember but I do remember the onos having a lot of issues due to getting killed on elevators and strange siege turret locations. .
Do you mean because the map is so good it feels like you are a part of the game or it's so bland you don't even know it's there?
Both.
Although, "bland" has the wrong connotations; transparent is a better word.
Things you won’t see in NS2 because of this restriction:
- Spiral staircases.
- Castle Towers (NS1 dragon levels, lol!)
- A proper working lift, where there is only one door to enter and exit from.
- A multi story skyscraper.
- A block of flats.
- A walk way, that has a roof and solid floor.
- A sandwich based level. “The cheese floor please, ah no actually, can I go to level ham...â€
- You get the point...
There is a little restriction but it won’t stop mappers making amazing maps. If anything, a little restriction like this should make them think outside the box a little, which is a good thing.
If the commander was on the top view level and clicked on the middle view level button on the hud, the cameras "Z-axis" (or Y-axis, not sure what rule the NS2 engine is following) will bind to the next view level down which would make things above the view level non-renderable (or in some cases simply transparent) and they would be able to see from the height of their current view level, to the bottom of the map.
Things like clicking on requests for ammo/health, if they functioned at all like in NS1, would automatically set the view level to the closest one available to the requesting marine.
I guess this could add a little more micromanagement issues and possible confusion to new Commanders though.
this is not 100% correct. in starcraft2 there is the possibillity to build dungeons.
they showed a shooter realized with the sc2 editor on the last blizzcon :)
like ns2, its all scripted! - maybe there is faster a ns2 mod for sc2 out, as the original ns2 :P (who knows?)