Player collision rules
Terr
Arthritic Skulk Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7486Members
Arthritic Skulk Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7486Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Phase through friendlies, blocked by enemies</div>I think NS2 should adopt collision code which distinguishes between teammates an enemies. In other games (like Team Fortress 2) it has eliminated many avenues for griefing while still allowing melee combat.
Basically, all players on the same team should be able to walk through other players of the same team, as if they weren't there. This prevents varieties of griefing (blocking an important doorway) and also makes it easier to enforce certain game-rules in terms of things like boosting other players into exploitative locations.
At the same time, enemies are solid, so there's no risk of accidentally passing <b>through</b> an enemy while trying to melee him.
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For those who say "no, we need teamwork", I think there is <b>ample</b> scope for real teamwork between players beyond using each other as stepping stones to get places no individual can otherwise access. The payoff is worth it, especially if you're stuck behind another player who refuses to move in a cramped vent.
Basically, all players on the same team should be able to walk through other players of the same team, as if they weren't there. This prevents varieties of griefing (blocking an important doorway) and also makes it easier to enforce certain game-rules in terms of things like boosting other players into exploitative locations.
At the same time, enemies are solid, so there's no risk of accidentally passing <b>through</b> an enemy while trying to melee him.
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For those who say "no, we need teamwork", I think there is <b>ample</b> scope for real teamwork between players beyond using each other as stepping stones to get places no individual can otherwise access. The payoff is worth it, especially if you're stuck behind another player who refuses to move in a cramped vent.
Comments
I think NS2 should adopt collision code which distinguishes between teammates an enemies. In other games (like Team Fortress 2) it has eliminated many avenues for griefing while still allowing melee combat.
Basically, all players on the same team should be able to walk through other players of the same team, as if they weren't there. This prevents varieties of griefing (blocking an important doorway) and also makes it easier to enforce certain game-rules in terms of things like boosting other players into exploitative locations.
At the same time, enemies are solid, so there's no risk of accidentally passing <b>through</b> an enemy while trying to melee him.
_________
For those who say "no, we need teamwork", I think there is <b>ample</b> scope for real teamwork between players beyond using each other as stepping stones to get places no individual can otherwise access. The payoff is worth it, especially if you're stuck behind another player who refuses to move in a cramped vent.
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Honestly, it is horrible they implemeted no-player-collision in L4D1 and TF2. TF2 it is kind of okay, since it has no resemblance to its TF roots anymore, and is more of an casual arcade shooter.
However in L4D1, stacking ontop of each other is a big problem. You can never kill a decent team of humans, without getting a lucky 4-cap. It's all bout who can make it to the end with the most points, and not what the original goal by the DEVs was... which was a 75% win ratio for the infected.
I can guarentee you, you will be ###### a storm when 6-8 Heavy EXOs ball up into a corner while destroying 12 Skulks, 4 Lerks, 6 Fades, 2 Onos, and 1 pocket Gorge.
I can see the bawwwing now.
This is also aparent because of the RTS aspect as well.
Honestly if anyone is worried about "Blocking Type Griefers", hopefully the NS2 DEVs will include an ingame Votekick menu like in L4D1. Lets not forget about server admins as well, since we will be using dedicated servers.
I can see where if you wanted to stop people froom boosting other players by having them standing on them, they can implement what they did in CS:S when 3 players stack, you can have the collision slide them off.
Trust me, it will not be fun if "rubberband collision" is implemented into this game.
Check my join date and post history. What do you think? :P
<!--quoteo(post=1737855:date=Nov 16 2009, 02:38 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Nov 16 2009, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However in L4D1, stacking ontop of each other is a big problem. You can never kill a decent team of humans, without getting a lucky 4-cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And in L4D2 it's recified by having some nasty area-of-effect attacks. (Like, say, spore?) And I'm sure the bite attack's "bullet" could actually have penetration, meaning you'll hurt every marine within a certain stack. Certainly it should be examined during the coding phase, but I fail to see how it is a gamebreaker strategy for marines to bunch up. In fact, they have an incentive <b>not</b> to bunch up, because that way they can provide better cover and protection from ambushes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trust me, it will not be fun if "rubberband collision" is implemented into this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Who the heck said anything about rubber-band collision? I said "phase through" "as if they weren't there". That said, TF2's implementation shows it can be done right. Most players don't even notice there <b>is</b> any sort of repulsive force between teammates.
<!--quoteo(post=1737858:date=Nov 16 2009, 03:04 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 16 2009, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which we have much less intrusive means of handling right now (vote kick, nonlinear map design, ...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh, vote-kick is incredibly intrusive. It means I need to stop playing the game and go to some alternate menu.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus player collision gives an interesting dynamic to working together. You have to coordinate your movements somewhat well with your teammates to make sure you don't block or get each other killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if you hop on a public server and you're with some newbies, is that the "fun" kind of coordination, or is that the "un-fun" kind? I think it moves closer to the latter, especially when some clueless guy on your bodyblocks you and you get trampled.
FACEPALM!!! =(
That is even worse than TF2 or L4D1's version of anti-collision methods.
It would be like if Mutalisks naturally stacked that way in Starcraft, without pushing each other out of the way after they stop moving. Everyone would stack Marine team and make a moving Spartan Ball of Bullet Death. Just no.
And the Kharaa will even be more likely to be chain killed, especially the Skulks. It would also be OP if you stack 6-8 Onos on top of each other, with Gorges clipping inside them doing the Healspray Dance.
I hope you see the light now.
But for the small NS1 mod, you are probably right, I shouldn't have assumed you didn't play before. My previous post still stands though.
Players stacking on top of one another in a totem-pole and griefing (or getting you blocked killed through being clueless) and doing boosting exploits... all are a bigger issue if you take collision changes out of the possible solutions.
I like the idea of making all alien players have area affect attacks, so a skulk bite would hit all marines within range. also it could be made so the rubber-band effect is strong enough that players can't stand inside each other.
another idea is to only make aliens pass-through, since player blocking is much more of an issue with aliens, and there's no benefit to a bunch of aliens standing in a corner inside of each other.
another would be to make the collision boxes small, so you can't stand literally inside each other, but very close, and still have the rubber-band effect.
Again, both issues are trivially solved and discouraged with area-of-effect weaponry and penetrating bullets or melee attacks.
Players stacking on top of one another in a totem-pole and griefing (or getting you blocked killed through being clueless) and doing boosting exploits... all are a bigger issue if you take collision changes out of the possible solutions.
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You can't have "medusa/shiva" stacking if there is collision. It takes effort to stack up 5 people on top of each others head. Plus if Skulks surround the bottom guy on the "totem pole", it is an easy +4 extra kills due to the Marines falling down like a slot machine.
Boosting exploits are easy to solve by the suggestion I gave, which was how it was solved in Counter-Strike: Source.
Getting blocked while you are escaping as a Fade, is more due to that Fade's(Player's) skill level.
(Yes, I just said -L2P- constructed into a sentence. U MAD NAO?)
Good grief. (I hope this is the end now. It is now or never for you to "see the light".) (Admins + Votekick Menu = Griefing SOLVED)
the pass-through collision in these games makes everything feel much more fluid, i'll never forget running alongside some teammates and constantly jerking around because you're too close and the engine can't handle it, or being blocked by players who are afk or just stupid. the engine problem might be fixable, but afks and idiots are not, and it's not enough to rely on votekicking.
I like the idea of making all alien players have area affect attacks, so a skulk bite would hit all marines within range. also it could be made so the rubber-band effect is strong enough that players can't stand inside each other.
another idea is to only make aliens pass-through, since player blocking is much more of an issue with aliens, and there's no benefit to a bunch of aliens standing in a corner inside of each other.
another would be to make the collision boxes small, so you can't stand literally inside each other, but very close, and still have the rubber-band effect.
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I say the fair compromise is this:
Aliens have rubberband collision like in TF2.
Marines have full collision.
There, case solved everyone. Since it is apparent people really suck at using +duck/+crouch while fading.
Being blunt and honest here, someone has to do it.
I can tell you right now that I have never seen people in TF2 (which has no bullet penetration) deliberately attempt to exploit the collision system against the other team in the way you describe. (Uber-pairs rushing a turret who don't split to angle the fire are simply doing it wrong.)
<u>Never</u>, in more than a year of solid playing.
Even the medic who heals tries to stay out of firing lines and behind his patient, and I fail to see why a smart Gorge would not do the same while healing. The potential benefits are vastly outweighed by the natural downsides in terms of being attacked by splash/area weaponry and visibility interference.
<!--quoteo(post=1737879:date=Nov 16 2009, 04:33 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Nov 16 2009, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have full collision.
There, case solved everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering one of my concerns was marines stacking to reach areas that the mapper may have designed to be otherwise-inaccessible (at least pre-jetpack), it isn't.
There are a host of benefits to making the game less buggy, less frustrating, more accessible, and streamlining the actual tactics, and I simply don't see enough motivation for players to do what you think they'll do... which may not even be a viable tactic! By comparison, all the things better collisions would <i>solve</i> are actual issues, especially when you assume an influx of newbies.
The other thing: You are about to fire your rocket / grenade and *shoom* some jerk runs THROUGH you and blocks your projectile, making it litteraly blow up in your face. Nothing I like and nothing I want to see in NS2.
I says NO to "clip through teamies"!
I'd like to hear devs on that matter, tho.
Shiva stacking... In TF2? What exactly are they doing? Are they all camping the same corner with a carpet of stickies everywhere? (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raLVZbtOvDs" target="_blank">Heh</a>)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other thing: You are about to fire your rocket / grenade and *shoom* some jerk runs THROUGH you and blocks your projectile, making it litteraly blow up in your face. Nothing I like and nothing I want to see in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This objection does have some merit and I have felt that frustration... but would also solved by making projectile weapons not blocked by teammates.
unless the games are limited to say max 4 players on each team, or mainly played in vastly open area maps, the bonus you get to playability with rubber-band collisions is far too awesome.
Considering NS2 will mainly be played in the (assumedly) tight confines of spacecraft, spacestations, outposts etc. (generally indoors!), and I am dearly hoping for an average game to be at least 12vs12 scale, proper collisions are just too annoying. I'm hoping that NS2 will promote teamwork, and a good way to ensure this is make sure it's not frustrating to be near teammates :)
Exactly. If those guys are on my team and heavy I'll often end up giving 'em a dispenser so that they guard me while I fortifie the area, but I still don't approve of even the possibility of this tactic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not frustrating to be near teammates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but it is not frustrating already. if you are outsmarted, you need to change. not the game.
But when it gets down to it, I'm not sure that particular example works in NS. It sounds like the tactic is only plausible through multiple layers of remotely-detonated bombs (are those planned for NS2?) available to a class already predisposed to camping. Furthermore, it's likely that the same number of players in other, more-active roles could be much more of an asset to their team. That kind of tactic in NS will result in the enemy winning the resource war and coming to devour your bones.
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I disagree that a dumb teammate who won't get out of the way is indicative of the guy being blocked having been outsmarted, and I think it harms gameplay when you create an <i>unnecessary</i> linkage between teammates' mistakes and another player's doom.
but it's a team game. taking the team out of the equation of close quarters combat is changing the flow of the game to much. at least when marines can phase through each other. that'd benefit them to much as it's removing the "use the enemy as cover" aspect from close combat situations.
yes, a ventilation shaft situation is depressing, but thats why the last one or two players in a vent-crawl have to cover the backside.
you might've guessed already but i favor aliens myself and i see the benefit in it just as well as a rine lover does, especialy for my favorite tactic of skulking teeth-and-claws-flurrys. but as i stated above, it cuts down on the usefullnes of secondary abilities, which let you control your enemy. if the second line's pushing into the fight while the first line can not flee for the lack of space, nor the backups's doing any damage because its blocked by the frontlines, that's missplacement for you, for either side.
with lower lifeforms and onos it's different, tho, as the onos has a large gap between it's legs that even visualy allows them to phase through.
i'd even go that far to allow it to phase through ducking vanilla/jp marines, with or without dealing damage to them. i dont care.
Lets say that models are given the following weights (space pounds :)):
Skulk- 10
Lerk- 5
Fade- 25
Onos- 40
Gorge- 15
Marine- 20
Heavy Marine- 30
The basic rules would be: any model that is twice the weight of the other model or more will move as normal and the other creature will simply be pushed out of the way (45 degree push from larger models line of movement).
If a model weighs more than half the weight of the other model will be able to push against that model if there is no resistance and the speed would be based on the difference in weight. If two models push against each other the heavier one will win (if equal they would just stop but most likely slide off each other.
This means: An onos on the move will only be slowed down by a Heavy Marine, Fade or other Onos, but will be able to push all but another Onos resisting the movement. The Onos could walk right through Marine groups, so no more friendly door blocking, skulk trips by a skulk or gorge behind an Onos while attempting to support. It also makes the size and weight of the aliens matter in combat (which they should).
Heavy marines would still be able to impede large lifeforms by blocking to some extent. If everyone knows that the logically larger life form will be pushing the others around it would be both logical and easy to predict what would happen if someone changed course.
I dislike the current trapping that happens in NS1 when a group assault is attempted. In this system the large life form can push and retreat if needed and not have to blame support for getting killed when they try to fall back.
Unless the team decides to make multiplayer physics a big part of the game, I think the kind of effort needed to pull it off <b>well</b> would be higher than the payoff.
I believe it takes away from the game. I guess i just have a different perspective. Part of playing PC FPS's is having the ability to do things outside of the typical game. You mentioned, "i want to play the game, not votekick someone" ...i am the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. I love that feeling of control, and feeling like part of the game. To me, votekick / rockthevote, etc, is all PART of the game, just as much as blasting enemies. When you focus the game merely on killing enemies, you sacrifice the community. Each person who is griefing just becomes, "player 123091" and not an actual person.
Back to phasing through. You could very well put ladders under every vent. Or allow double jumps or something to get onto platforms/crates, or good hiding spots (WHICH SHOULD BE INCLUDED). But if you do that, you are killing the sense of community once again. I can't say to the guy standing next to me, 'hey help me up!' ... instead, it becomes a pointless, crappy, run of the mill, solo deathmatch FPS, which is plaguing, killing, and numbing the entire FPS genre.
i hate to say it .. but ideas like this are the cancer on the FPS genre.
Just because something involves cooperation between multiple players doesn't make it better for the game. If "Players can use each other to climb walls and reach high places" is <b>not</b> a goal for the devs, then exploits involving it should be fixed, with the attendant anti-griefing and anti-killed-by-clueless-teammate benefits that go with it.
If--as you say--your daily relationship with "the community" is so <b>weak</b> that it <b>requires</b> "boost me up" as part of your teamwork repertoire in order to survive, then it's not worth saving. You've still got flanking attacks, covering fire, leapfrog advancing, combined arms, healing, etc. etc. There's a huge array of teamwork that's actually core to the game.
The pure newbie friendliness of the idea is good of course, but I'm heavily doubtful how the system is going to work in melee ranges with possible knockbacks, movement methods and such. Most likely there's going to be a plenty of situations where a skulk lands the first bite on one marine and the second one on another marine clipping through the first one.
I'm not a big fan of features like this altogether since they take a lot away from positioning, assault timing and the general ability to take advantage at map chokepoints and cramped locations. I also prefer the solid feel of the game, even if it includes some troubles. So, I don't think it's a particularly good tradeoff in desing in NS' case unless they want to shift target audience. In TF2 it was fine and in L4D it probably works well too, but I think NS at least has potential to attract a lot different players than those games did.
I would accept a middlething, where people could pass beside each other (ruining aim depending on who's passing and so on), but not trough each other.
and it needs to allow small lifeforms to slip through a marine's legs (anything smaller than a fade, lerk without wings spread). similar to the oiled pig hunt.
Unless the team decides to make multiplayer physics a big part of the game, I think the kind of effort needed to pull it off <b>well</b> would be higher than the payoff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Momentum is computationally inexpensive. HL already has client-prediction for physics, and for the most part, it works fairly well. Pretty much any collision is going to result in client prediction errors anyways.
An Onos should not be pushed around by a jetpack. Adding momentum to the system was considered a first but it would need to be done case by case because a jetpacker should not be moving an Onos, ever, and a blinking fade isn't really moving fast, they are 'teleporting' (according to fluff).