No to fem-rine model [p.3] - keep it clean
Renegade.
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Please fix the PM system</div>I've just sent out two PMs, with no indication they've reached their target and neither show up in the Sent box. This is increasingly frustrating as if a thread is locked and I cannot reach anyone through any other means I am left with little other recourse. No one enjoys airing dirty laundry, but when accusations of sexism are made publicly and the thread is locked before a proper response can be given, that is blatant disparagement.
In regards to this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107961" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107961</a>, here was my planned response:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comprox, when it comes to the touchy subject of females and minority groups serving in the military, one needs to be certain they are properly distinguishing between fact and opinion. Many simply shy away from trying to figure out which is which, and would rather err on the side of Political Correctness, simply saying it is "wrong" to discuss the topic at all. This type of reasoning kills discussion.
Both my original post, and the post following yours (the one referenced in your lock) were not opinions, they are fact:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military</a>
Scroll down to the 'Contemporary debate' section:
<!--QuoteBegin-"Wikipedia"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Wikipedia")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The role of women in combat has become a particularly contentious issue in contemporary militaries throughout the world. With the current exclusion of women from many combat roles seen by some as a form of sexual discrimination, an ongoing debate continues. Many on each side of the issue cite the alleged physical and mental differences of the two sexes, the effect of the presence of the opposite sex on the battlefield, and the traditional view of men as soldiers as arguments both for and against women being employed as soldiers under combat situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is no hush-hush secret that females have been notoriously discouraged from combat roles and several 'hoops' exist even in modern armies that require jumping through just to get there (it was the entire premise of "GI Jane"). If this were the 1990s and I had said homosexuals do not serve in the army, would you have locked that too? Despite that it was unarguable fact (the infamous "don't ask-don't tell" policy)?
Please be more careful before condemning something as "sexist" opinion, not just because it is offensive to someone who has taken the time to do their research on the matter, but because it stifles legitimate discussion.
- Renegade
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In regards to the original discussion:
This is not about <i>female</i> marines in the game, simply their <i>current model</i>. There is no justifiable reason why it is required that it should bear almost the same contours as a naked human body when their male counterpart features armour that is not nearly as form-fitting. If such an armour system is intended to be a gameplay design, then allow it to be also worn by males, otherwise do not include it simply to show off the curvatures of the female model.
Ironically, as someone said previously, it is the current "Lara Croft"ian model that is sexist, suspending all disbelief in how an armour sytem should work (and how it clearly works with today's female soldiers as well as NS's future male soldiers) simply to give the player some gaudy eye candy. Thinking your playerbase is stupid enough to ignore such glaring innuendo is a down-right insult to those of us who intend to play and shows which target audience really is being targeted here.
In regards to this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107961" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107961</a>, here was my planned response:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comprox, when it comes to the touchy subject of females and minority groups serving in the military, one needs to be certain they are properly distinguishing between fact and opinion. Many simply shy away from trying to figure out which is which, and would rather err on the side of Political Correctness, simply saying it is "wrong" to discuss the topic at all. This type of reasoning kills discussion.
Both my original post, and the post following yours (the one referenced in your lock) were not opinions, they are fact:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military</a>
Scroll down to the 'Contemporary debate' section:
<!--QuoteBegin-"Wikipedia"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Wikipedia")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The role of women in combat has become a particularly contentious issue in contemporary militaries throughout the world. With the current exclusion of women from many combat roles seen by some as a form of sexual discrimination, an ongoing debate continues. Many on each side of the issue cite the alleged physical and mental differences of the two sexes, the effect of the presence of the opposite sex on the battlefield, and the traditional view of men as soldiers as arguments both for and against women being employed as soldiers under combat situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is no hush-hush secret that females have been notoriously discouraged from combat roles and several 'hoops' exist even in modern armies that require jumping through just to get there (it was the entire premise of "GI Jane"). If this were the 1990s and I had said homosexuals do not serve in the army, would you have locked that too? Despite that it was unarguable fact (the infamous "don't ask-don't tell" policy)?
Please be more careful before condemning something as "sexist" opinion, not just because it is offensive to someone who has taken the time to do their research on the matter, but because it stifles legitimate discussion.
- Renegade
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In regards to the original discussion:
This is not about <i>female</i> marines in the game, simply their <i>current model</i>. There is no justifiable reason why it is required that it should bear almost the same contours as a naked human body when their male counterpart features armour that is not nearly as form-fitting. If such an armour system is intended to be a gameplay design, then allow it to be also worn by males, otherwise do not include it simply to show off the curvatures of the female model.
Ironically, as someone said previously, it is the current "Lara Croft"ian model that is sexist, suspending all disbelief in how an armour sytem should work (and how it clearly works with today's female soldiers as well as NS's future male soldiers) simply to give the player some gaudy eye candy. Thinking your playerbase is stupid enough to ignore such glaring innuendo is a down-right insult to those of us who intend to play and shows which target audience really is being targeted here.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
You have to check the "Add a copy of this message to my sent items folder" box.
They say females do not serve in combat roles, this is true. There aren't female tankers.
But there are females getting shot at, and shooting, because their conveys and supply humvees are shot at, they're shot at going our to give medic attention, so on. Females are roadblocks that get attacked by Technicals and Car Bombs.
There are even all female escort Humvee's now.
Things are changing very rapidly in the USA, and Israel, in regards to women in the military.
I don't imagine there will be front lines when fighting aliens either, so women will be in combat.
Indeed it is...
Can we get a freaking "last warning before the temp ban" already.
While I see some justification for your 2nd thread, its progress also showed clearly why comprox is locking this ######.
Certain other persons would be temp banned already for recreating a thread that was locked twice.
Quoting since this is your point and it makes sense. A third thread is kind of excessive though.
@pSyk0mAn, I'm not "certain other persons", it's clear what my intentions are and very pertinent discussion shouldn't be marred because of "potential" problems. If I can't discuss something important to us all on forums of the same game then there really is no point in having or being on them.
@innociv, please see Steve's post. This is not about presence of female soldiers in the game, it is about how they are construed, and I think given your post you can agree that any army employing soldiers equally is not going to so <i>unequally</i> equip a soldier because of gender or race.
1. While females do have increasing roles in the military, you cannot compare and/or use the allied armies, from Earth, today, as a point of reference. Does sex even matter in the world of NS? I don't think any comparison should be made or used because in the future anything can happen, AND most importantly the NS marines are not "U.S. Marines" right? Is a modern day American view even applicable in the world of NS?
2. I agree that using underboob armor, and pants like the Bayonetta chick wears isn't "PC" for America, but then again this country is FULL of double standards. Maybe to keep it realistic females models would wear different sized gear, such as smaller boots and helmets? This way they are seen as fighters, still wearing the same stuff as males, but you would still identify them as women.
3. Im a guy, but if I had to wear crotch huggin, camel toe sportin pants my nuts would be in SERIOUS pain! Why? Because the human body is shaped differently for everyone, men and women. This is a fact. Look in the mirror. So, I imagine females need room for their boobs right?. Seems like common sense they don't want their boobs squished. Just like I wouldn't want to wear a thong... ...or would I? hehe (I kid! I kid!)
4. Consider a sci-fi movie such as Starship Troopers. Earth was attacked so being a female or male didn't matter, it was "citizen" or not. Fight or die.
5. Would we want to play a game that was California? I don't care for political correct or neutered material. I like to escape the world of America, where everything we think and say is best for everyone else, and just play a game blastin folks. So relax, it's just a game.
*I agree, don't let the female model get out of hand. Having nipples sticking out seems a bit overboard, but they ARE females, so realism vs. fantasy has a balance.
Fine, we understand your argument now, but you already saw what happens in these topics in round 2: they resort to uneeded comments. Unfortunately this is a topic that can't be discussed civilely. Don't make another topic on the matter.