PC Powers Down when running 3d Apps (read: games)

JazzX · November 2009

<u>Scenario:</u> When I attempt to play most 3D games, only very old titles like Half-Life 1 can run, everything else my entire PC shuts down as soon as 3D elements are displayed. Playing around with RivaTuner I've found if I underclock my GPU and force its fans to run at top speed I can some things to work (CoD4 training mission, Knights of the Old Republic), but that's with in-game resolution turned almost all the way down. If I attempt to raise the resolution, or if something complicated is going on the PC powers down again (I can't play the first real mission in CoD4, as soon as the lightning starts to flash the PC turns off).

<u>Question:</u> Based on all of this I suspect my PSU is unable to supply enough power (probably along its 12V rails). To me it seems unlikely the shutdown would occur immediately if it was a heat issue. If this is the case, and based on my specs (below) does anyone have a PSU recommendation? Failing that, I'm not entirely in love with my Graphics Card, so if someone has a suggestion there I'll gladly listen.

<u>Interesting Side Note:</u> I've run this exact hardware setup for just over a year. Fallout 3 would occasionally get shutdowns like this, but by dialing down my resolution and shutting down Windows Live it was sporadic enough I was able to live with it. However when I switched from Windows XP to Windows 7 it started happening with (almost) every 3d game I've tried. The only way this makes sense to me is that even older games, now running under DX11 require more power (and as I type this, I'm not convinced this makes any sense at all).

<u>Specs:</u>
OS: Win7,Pro,64-bit
Mobo: MSI K9N2 (MS-7374)
CPU: AMD Phenom 9950 Quad-Core Processor @2.6GHz
RAM: 4096MB RAM (2 x 2048MB Kingston PC2-6400)
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT (512 MB)
Driver File Version: 195.62 (aka - 8.17.0011.9562)
Desktop Resolution: 1680 x 1050 (32 bit) (@59Hz)
DirectX Ver: 11
Audio: Creative SB X-Fi
Power: Antec 500W Smart Power (Max Loads in parenthesis) +5V (35A), +12V1 (17A), +12V2 (19A), +3.3V (32A), -12V (.3A), +5Vsb(2A)

Temphage · November 2009

Easiest test would be to run Prime95 on all four cores. If after a few minutes you've noticed ANY of the tests stopped, your CPU is probably undervolted. I had a similar issue with my OC'd CPU, it would run fine if it weren't at 100%, but when it did after a few seconds a core would drop out earlier and kill the whole computer. When it did it varied from game to game with no rhyme or reason (L4D would do it, Crysis would not). Just cranked up the voltage .5V and it was fine.

EDIT: 500W is kinda sad for your system as a whole, that's almost the bare minimum needed to run the whole thing. An upgrade to 6 or 700 wouldn't be a bad idea, as it allows room to grow in the future (and they're dirt cheap anyway). You're pretty much fine with any PSU made by a name you recognize. Obviously avoid the $8 one made by some ###### Chinese company you've never heard of outside of Pricewatch.

flying_moose · November 2009

Yea, problems your power - I had the same trouble running a similar setup like that on a 650W PSU, upgraded to 1.1KW and it works like a dream. still - 800W would probably be enough especially if you don't overload on usb devices or hard-drives like I do.

Talesin · November 2009

Definitely a power problem. Does you video card have two power-in connectors? Make sure you're using both 12V rails.. I've seen a machine set up so EVERYTHING was running off rail 1 and having all sorts of problems until I just swapped some of the power connectors around.

Also, if you don't have one, a PSU tester can be quite useful in diagnosing problems like these, and tend to run about $20 USD. Failing that, some BIOS have detailed voltage monitoring.

Could also be the video card going bad, if you can run CPU stress tests, and the only time it craps out is on 3D applications. Did you update your drivers recently, before this started to happen?

Temphage · November 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(flying_moose @ Nov 30 2009, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Yea, problems your power - I had the same trouble running a similar setup like that on a 650W PSU, upgraded to 1.1KW and it works like a dream. still - 800W would probably be enough especially if you don't overload on usb devices or hard-drives like I do.</div>
I'd suggest for anyone with an ounce of sanity to not listen to his suggestions. Just because they make power supplies that can run the space shuttle doesn't mean the hardware these days actually requires it.

A GTX 260, 3.6GHz OC quad core, 4GB RAM, four hard drives, an absolute asston of fans, and a pile of USB and PCI things inc. a sound card all run in my system off a 700W PSU. I don't think it's possible to build a system that needs a 1.1KW PSU.

Rob · November 2009

Yeah if it's not a heat problem (get some tester program to peg your CPU and see what happens), then it's probably your 12V rail(s). Video cards are bad about be ambiguous about how much 12V power they need, and vender specs on PSUs are even worse about telling how much they provide. More watts doesn't mean it'll fix your problem as Temphage has said.

BFG's version of your card: <a href="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143186&cm_re=NVIDIA_GeForce_9800_GT-_-14-143-186-_-Product" target="_blank">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...3-186-_-Product</a>

Says it needs 22 amps in 12V, this PSU that gives 25 on each of four 12V rails might be an option: <a href="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371025" target="_blank">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16817371025</a>

However, I'm not sure I'd go with four 12V rails... Anyway, when buying PSUs, I usually go by the customer ratings and reviews about the kind of problems they had. They can usually be trusted: the reviews for mine even talked about a slightly out of standard size on the molex connectors, and sure enough, it's a pain the arse to get those things seated together.

JazzX · November 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Talesin @ Nov 30 2009, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Definitely a power problem. Does you video card have two power-in connectors? Make sure you're using both 12V rails..</div> The card only has 1 power-in, which is probably a good thing cause my current PSU is a modular type which only has one 8pin connector itself...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Talesin @ Nov 30 2009, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Also, if you don't have one, a PSU tester can be quite useful in diagnosing problems like these, and tend to run about $20 USD. Failing that, some BIOS have detailed voltage monitoring.

Could also be the video card going bad, if you can run CPU stress tests, and the only time it craps out is on 3D applications.</div> I have a PSU tester, sadly its getting long in the tooth and doesn't have a way to test 8-pin connections. The software based ones I've used all show solid output from my first 12V rail, I haven't found one yet that even notices/cares about the second 12V rail... I ran a stress tester, OCCT, and it gets through the CPU tests without a problem. The GPU test can run, but only at low resolutions with the card underclocked (otherwise my PC powers down, just like in-game).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Talesin @ Nov 30 2009, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Did you update your drivers recently, before this started to happen?</div>Yeah, the change from WinXP 32bit to Win7 64bit required a clean install. I'm typically pretty good about keeping my drivers updated, so I went from the newest XP-32 drivers to the newest 7-64 drivers. And I've gone back through about a half-dozen Win7 drivers now seeing if there was a "good" set out there, but so far they all exhibit the same behavior.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Nov 30 2009, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>However, I'm not sure I'd go with four 12V rails...</div>I've read a couple of posts/articles that stated having multiple rails for 12v could be the source of my problems. Apparently when you have more than 1 the remainder have a tendancy to be far less reliable. I went through New Egg scanning reviews of 700-900W PSUs and the Corsair are all very highly rated, and one thing I noted is they all have a single large 12v rail. Antec's are usually a little lower on the list, and they all have multiple 12v rails.

Talesin · November 2009

The best ones use a single rail; multi-rail PSUs have multiple cheaper-component converters, whereas a single-rail PSU uses one high-grade unit. It really can be worth the extra ten to thirty bucks, down the road.

Though if you're having shutdowns after installing a new OS; have you made sure that all of your motherboard drivers were installed correctly? Sanity check, as if software was the last thing to change before it started having a massive problem... guess what I'd be most likely to blame, if it was MY machine. Especially given the video card hijinks that MS was pulling for a while there during the Beta and RC.

JazzX · December 2009

Interesting development since my last post. A Google search found a thread from someone with the same mainboard as I own, having the same issue (though his was with Vista, no Win7). One oddball thing about this board, which I had forgotten about until reading his post, is that in addition to the 24 and 4/8 pin connections to the PSU, it also has a standard molex connector right on the board. When I first setup the hardware the manual said to connect that one along with the other power connectors, and being a good like sheep I hooked it up.

The post mentioned that by disconnecting the molex his board was much more stable. It turns out all the molex connection is for is to power the onboard video. Even though its disabled it will apparently draw power if the connection is left intact.

I've since disconnected mine and while I'm definitely not running right, it has made a difference. I was able to play CoD4 for 20-30 minutes without issue. Though once again during a transition from pre-rendered video to 3D elements my computer powered down.

I also updated my BIOS, but I haven't had any luck finding Windows 7 drivers for any part of my mainboard. I've considered trying the Vista 64bit versions, but I'm a little concerned about trying to use them with Windows 7.

Drfuzzy · December 2009

Try PC check, it will run checks on nearly every aspect of your hardware. When booting to windows, hit f8 while booting and select 'disable restart on system failure' and if your computer bluescreens record the 0x0(lots-of-hex-code) code and post it (sometimes your computer reboots so fast you dont see the BSOD). Your computer is shutting itself down to prevent damage to the hardware or its just lacking the power to run.

Chances are your video card is either overheating or the memory is bad if it is still kicking off in 20-30min on older games. You may also not be getting the required power needed to run the application. Updating your BIOS, video drivers, and direct x can also solve this if this is not the issue.

If your running windows 7, this may also be the issue. It may not be correctly running your hardware, and as I said, your computer is shutting itself off to protect itself upon a error. Try a hard drive with vista or XP and see if the issue continues.

Just a few things you can try, let me know what you find :)

flying_moose · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 30 2009, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd suggest for anyone with an ounce of sanity to not listen to his suggestions. Just because they make power supplies that can run the space shuttle doesn't mean the hardware these days actually requires it.

A GTX 260, 3.6GHz OC quad core, 4GB RAM, four hard drives, an absolute asston of fans, and a pile of USB and PCI things inc. a sound card all run in my system off a 700W PSU. I don't think it's possible to build a system that needs a 1.1KW PSU.</div>

Its quite possible, but it's not a matter of needing that much power, I wanted a future-proof system, as well as a stable backbone to my computer. In my experience, well made power supplies last a long time, so I purchased a good one when it was on sale that I was sure would last a long time.

All the same - to justify my power supply:
Intel Q6600 Quad core OC 2.4 > 3.84Ghz
(liquid cooled, so the pump is drawing power as well)
4GB (2x 2GB) ddr3 1600Mhz ram
Nvidia 790i Mobo
2x 8800 GT
4x hard drives
pci-e bluetooth device/wireless card
pci-e raid controller
10x 120mm fans (honestly I did it only because the case had the space for them)
1x 200mm fan

Temphage · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(flying_moose @ Dec 2 2009, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Intel Q6600 Quad core OC 2.4 > 3.84Ghz
(liquid cooled, so the pump is drawing power as well)
2x 8800 GT
4x hard drives
10x 120mm fans (honestly I did it only because the case had the space for them)
1x 200mm fan</div>
<img src="http://www.forumopolis.com/images/smilies/lol.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />

lolfighter · December 2009

Wait, you've overclocked a 2.4 Ghz processor to 3.84 Ghz and the system is shutting down?

Rob · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 2 2009, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Wait, you've overclocked a 2.4 Ghz processor to 3.84 Ghz and the system is shutting down?</div>

Naw, you're confusing your posters!

Temphage · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 2 2009, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Wait, you've overclocked a 2.4 Ghz processor to 3.84 Ghz and the system is shutting down?</div>
Failolfighter.

flying_moose · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 2 2009, 04:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Wait, you've overclocked a 2.4 Ghz processor to 3.84 Ghz and the system is shutting down?</div>
nope - mines running fine - as mentioned, your confusing posters.

lolfighter · December 2009

Yes yes I get it now! Thank you! All three of you!

JazzX · December 2009

So the problem does seem to be my PSU. After running dozens more tests, upgrading every driver I could find, I was still having crashes. After reading reviews I settled on a 750W corsair with a single 12v rail. This afternoon I installed it and have played CoD4 for several hours without a single crash. I'm still not sure how going from XP-32 to 7-64 could have suddenly caused my PSU to be insufficient, but its working now, so I'm happy.

Temphage · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JazzX @ Dec 8 2009, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>So the problem does seem to be my PSU. After running dozens more tests, upgrading every driver I could find, I was still having crashes. After reading reviews I settled on a 750W corsair with a single 12v rail. This afternoon I installed it and have played CoD4 for several hours without a single crash. I'm still not sure how going from XP-32 to 7-64 could have suddenly caused my PSU to be insufficient, but its working now, so I'm happy.</div>
Drivers and different utilisation of hardware could change power draw somewhat, but that would suggest your system was precariously unstable on XP 32. You could attribute this to the Win Vista / 7 desktop environments.

Could just be coincidence.

ChimpZealot · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JazzX @ Dec 7 2009, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>So the problem does seem to be my PSU. After running dozens more tests, upgrading every driver I could find, I was still having crashes. After reading reviews I settled on a 750W corsair with a single 12v rail. This afternoon I installed it and have played CoD4 for several hours without a single crash. I'm still not sure how going from XP-32 to 7-64 could have suddenly caused my PSU to be insufficient, but its working now, so I'm happy.</div>
You know you could have just asked me and I would have told you that this was exactly the problem I was having, and this is the solution that worked for me.

JazzX · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChimpZealot @ Dec 16 2009, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You know you could have just asked me and I would have told you that this was exactly the problem I was having, and this is the solution that worked for me.</div>If you weren't always "Away" I would have complained to you all about it, loudly, and at every chance I was given. I even had a box fan and a giant roll of tape on stand-by.

ChimpZealot · December 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JazzX @ Dec 17 2009, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If you weren't always "Away" I would have complained to you all about it, loudly, and at every chance I was given. I even had a box fan and a giant roll of tape on stand-by.</div>
I'm only "away" when it comes to the unimportant people. You can usually pretty safely assume I'm at my computer. And you'll be happy to know I'm using duct tape to keep my headphones working at the moment.

PC Powers Down when running 3d Apps (read: games)

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