Irc Censorship!

Acheron · December 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">What the dilly-yo?</div> By now most of you have probably visited the great IRC home of this mod, #naturalselection on Gamesnet. First of all, it rocks. It's quite actively administrated and the chatting is usually active without being overly spammy. The problem, though, is the censorship. The beloved bot "Onos" feels it necessary to kick anyone who dares speak the unthinkable: "**obscenity**". Yes, that's right folks, apparently **obscenity** is a <i>racist/sexist</i> word. So, I'm here to give you all a little crash course in not being an idiot:

1. Gays can be of either (or both) genders and any race. So the word is neither racist nor sexist, in or out of context.

2. Kicking for a three-letter combination is bound to have some ridiculous spillover. For example, I was accidentally kicked once for saying:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I am listening to Marvin Gaye.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

3. Let's look at what the word "**obscenity**" actually means:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>
1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
3. Bright or lively, especially in color
4. Given to social pleasures </span></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Not only is **obscenity** a <i>neutral</i> term in reference to homosexuals, <i>it also has other meanings</i>. To point out the hypocrisy of banning a neutral term as sexist, I once said in the channel:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I believe gays should have the same rights as everyone else.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

(For which I was, of course, tempbanned)

Why am I so mad about this? Well, I'm not **obscenity** and I don't know any "oppressed **obscenity** NS players." The issue here is your approach to hatred. Instead of countering ignorance with reason, you're simply ignoring it. Do you think NS players are going to be any less racist/sexist, or even any more tolerant because you sweep a few potty mouths out of your chat room? Why even bother with a mechanical kick for potentially benign statements when at any given time there are multiple admins keeping the channel "safe."?

To me, this censorship just seems to create an image of the moderators of #NS as a cabal founded on the principles of elitism, hypocrisy and nepotism. But that's just my opinion.

Acheron · December 2002

Oh dear lord I don't know whether to laugh or cry at how that post got chopped up by message board censorship.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Tzarcon · December 2002

Some people will agree that the censorship is a little overboard, perticularily with that word. It is only censored because most people dont use it in the context you described. They use it in scentances that describe anger towards another, such as "you're such a **obscenity** homo". Perhaps it is a good idea to get rid of autokick on that word, but understand that it has prooved quite useful

Thansal · December 2002

alot of this auto blocking and such is up b/c most ppl are NOT rational humans and instead will use ga-y, quee-r, etc for bashing/flamming purposes

personaly I am sick and tired of the amount of homophobs/idiots there are on the net (as well as Bigots of any type)

meh, my solution to any opne who uses racial/ethnic/sexual slurs is just to call em a bigot, most of them don't even know what it is or how I am insulting them, lol

btw, as a side note Sexism is not based off of gender (Male/female) any more, now it is bassed of off sexual preferance (ga-y/bi/straight), thus derogitory terms for homosexuals are deamed as sexist

Talesin · December 2002

Well, apparently being one of the (few?) ga-y NS players out there, it's a lot of fun to be on a server and be called names along those lines in a vindinctive sense... and simply be able to say 'Yes, I am. What's your point?'

In fact, it's where one of my in-game names originated. One of those 'flamers' (to pardon the reversal pun) ended up, after my agreement with his statements, calling me 'Big Ga-y Tal'.

I'd not even THOUGHT of that, previously. I must commend his wit, and immortalize it whenever I have a particularly good match. Though using it while Commanding tends to provoke less favorable responses from my troops, irritatingly enough. Not good when dealing with a team primarily full of 14-year-olds to whom 'ga-y' *is* a deadly insult, and worth fighting someone over even to dissociate themselves from said 'accused' individual.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Vober · December 2002

Is this a rant or do you want something done?

Talk to someone who can change this.

Personally I think it all depends on content so you should NEVER be auto kicked. We maybe need more mods in the channel?

Anyways write a well composed e-mail, not a quick rant...

Comprox · December 2002

The times Onos does a correct kick:times Onos does an incorrect kick is very good in favour of Onos. At times, no matter how many people you have, no one will be looking at the channel when someone does something idiotic. Onos is there to prevent that. I see you guys get kicked once in a week for the wrong reason, then everyone laughs, rpeats what he said, gets kicked and then whine about it for an hour. Before you complain to us, learn a little common sense please.

it's staying, and no email will change my mind <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Vober · December 2002

Sigh, it capitalist fool
The Karma system provides for absolute perfection in society(ideally)
Lets use this system
The Karma system states ALL of you good and bad deeds stick with you, they DO NOT cross each other out

So we may have more good bans than bad, but those few still remain.

I stand strongly on my opion that we simiply need more real people to moderate.....

Acheron · December 2002

I still think the auto-kick should be taken out. It's a wonderful step towards automation in "good-timery" but it's a fundamentally flawed one. Sure, all 40 (or however many ops there are in #ns) mods can't be there at all times, but do they need to be? It's like a philosophical question:

If a lamer flames in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does he still make a sound?

Genuinely hateful people can be warned, educated, kicked, banned... whatever, all on an individual basis. We don't have an automated flood of people running <i>into</i> the chatroom to tell us all about how great their neo-nazi/chauvinist club is, and how much they hate homosexuals/women/babies/people who aren't white, so I have trouble seeing why an automated system is necessary to get them <i>out of</i> the chatroom.

Vober · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If a lamer flames in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does he still make a sound?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

/me sits
/me thinks

ahhh nope, I am still trying to well
Ahh
What are you talking about?

Greedo · December 2002

/me picks a #naturalselection log from last week that isn't mostly corrupted (yes, a lot of my logs are corrupted. I don't know why, but that isn't important here).

Okay, let's take November 24th, for instance.

/me searches log for word in question (I'll just search for Onos kicking people, to handle any 'variants' of the word)

kick #1: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #2: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #3: used complaining about filter.
kick #4: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #5: used in inappropriate manner.
kickban #1: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #6: used in inappropriate manner.

This was a slow day, though it is worth mentioning that the last few hours of the day were garbled..

How about another day? November 21st's log is full.

kick #1: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #2: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #3: used in flagrantly inappropriate manner.
kick #4: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #5: used in inappropriate manner while complaining about filter.
kick #6: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #7: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #8: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #9: used in inappropriate manner.
kick #10: used in inappropriate manner.

10 kicks, all justified. And just so you know, "used in inappropriate manner" means that I or any other op would have kicked the person for what he said.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that any arguments regarding the 'dictionary definition' of the word or the <i>very few</i> legitimate uses of the word as a part of another, completely different word are meaningless and trite. I can honestly say that the <i>only</i> time I've <i>ever</i> seen the word used to mean 'happy' is when people are debating it in a situation like this. It's a <i>technicality</i>.

The rules are there for a reason, and if you don't follow them, you won't be allowed in the channel. It's really as simple as that. Being allowed in the channel is a privilidge, not a right.

The auto-kick filter will not be removed. The auto-kick filter will not be changed. The auto-kick filter will always kick for that word.

Fina · December 2002

I run a message board and chat room for a site of my own. Word filters are in place because 1) moderators\ops are not always available. And 2) Profanity is never needed to get your point across in the first place. Unfortunately, our chat channel doesn't have any form of word filtering. Some people gripe and moan about the rules being too strict. I basically tell them that if they don't like the rules, then nothings keeping them from going somewhere else.

I also had that word on my word filter, until some user in their infinite enlightenment complained about how it was unfair censorship and all this other load. I took it off so they'd shut up. (Note : The same user was later banned for posting a nude pic of themselves... go figure.)

Acheron · December 2002

I think you're missing the issue here, namely that the word in question is only as derrogatory as you make it. The word itself is so removed from its original meaning(s) when you call it "inappropriate" that it's just as valid to autokick/tempban whenever someone says "burgundy." Do you understand the folly of trying to eliminate a word because someone finds it necessary to decontextualize it as an insult?

"Aw commander, stop being so frieking <i>burgundy</i>."

It's not an offensive word. I could see you calling f*** "obscene", and I might even concede that it's prudent to censor it in an official forum/chatroom.

I find it interesting, Greedo, that you called these instances in the log "inappropriate." By your own words, then, you admit there are appropriate uses of the word. Whether or not they occur in the channel is a moot point; what's important is that they never will if you continue to censor like you do now.

Fina · December 2002

I think it's pretty safe to say that 99% of the time it's used, it IS in a derogatory manner. It's got it's real meanings, but it's hardly ever used in it's correct context. Thus adding it to the filter just makes the Op's jobs easier.

Greedo · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acheron @ Dec 2 2002, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I find it interesting, Greedo, that you called these instances in the log "inappropriate." By your own words, then, you admit there are appropriate uses of the word.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Of course there are appropriate uses for the word, but that's not what's being discussed here. The simple fact of the matter is that it would be wonderful if everyone could use the word in a mature, non-derogatory fashion, but that that will <i>never</i> happen in a large IRC chat room filled with teenage gamers.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Whether or not they occur in the channel is a moot point; what's important is that they never will if you continue to censor like you do now.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No, it's not a moot point. That <i>is</i> the point. Practically never have I seen that word used in a mature fashion on IRC. So, rather than give 100 people the chance to use it inappropriately without being punished, 1 person is punished for using it appropriately. And it's fine with me if those discussions never occur in the channel. After all, it's #naturalselection, and it's on irc.gamesnet.net. It's a gaming channel about the Half-Life mod Natural Selection. And nowhere in this mod that I've been playing for almost 8 months have I found anything pertaining to this matter of discussion. We aren't obligated to really allow the discussion to be about anything besides NS. For the most part, we let people talk about whatever they want, if only because variety is the spice of life. But if a conversation ever starts heading in a direction we don't want it to go, we stop it and turn it around. The word in question is a conversation we just don't want to allow in the channel, because with 200 people daily, there will be people who can't handle it. We ops can't be 100% mindful of the channel 100% of the time, and no amount of ops would allow that to be true, so this is simply the best solution to the problem.

I feel like I keep repeating myself, so I'll just sum up here: It's a kick. Deal with it. If you do it again, it's still a kick. Again, deal with it. If you manage to trip the filter 3 times, and get yourself a few hour timeban, then you're either using the word in a derogatory manner or purposely tripping the filter. I can't honestly believe that anyone would be able to trip it 3 times and not realize what they're doing. If you manage to trip it a fourth time after you get back, then you're gone.

If you don't like the rules, you're free to leave.

Rue · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fina @ Dec 2 2002, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think it's pretty safe to say that 99% of the time it's used, it IS in a derogatory manner.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
probaly is but its the say as (dont know if its the same in the US) in the UK when u say ur going to a corrnor shop u say a word that is derogatory to people from pakistan (sp?) and if ur going for a Chinese take-away then again most people will use a work witch will be pritty much offencive.

The word **obscenity** is the same but i dont know y people started using it to start with , we will probs never get rid of the stigman of it but what the hell , try and change the minds of the masses? dont think so

Spyder_Monkey · December 2002

Believe me, we've tried to let people talk about it in a mature fashion before... every attempt at that has failed. Now, the threat has tripled because we are so large... we are now the target of advertisers, llamas (though that was always) and other channels (#ex, most recently). The argument is not that you're being censored from saying that word. It's that you can't possibly talk about it without stirring up at least 1 immature remark. Should the user who makes the immature remark be banned? Yes. Should we even try to discuss this subject at all, knowing the hell it will unleash with the 100s of pre-teens in our channel?

Again, with the statistics... for every 15 bans that Onos dishes out, perhaps 1 is for a wrong reason. In which case, it's as simple to remove, as it was to place.

Talesin · December 2002

So why not simply have a more robust matching filter, instead? Normally when it's used as an insult, it's led by 'is so ***', 'you're so ***' or 'is ***'. Occasionally just on its own as an exclamation. I doubt that you'd find anyone discussing it maturely using it in an even semi-standard insult-pattern.

Most of the other instances of insult-related use, 'is a f***ing f*g' will likely be tripped by the other portions of the filter already, even without the last word.

I know it would be a little bit of work, but as Greedo386 has pointed out, Onos has kick/banlogs with the particular post that spawned each. You *have* a list there to look through for all the ways it's been used in the channel before. It should be fairly simple to just grep 'em for 'g*y', weed out the appropriate-use kicks, then find word-correlations in the insults. True, this would still hit a *few* appropriate-uses (primarily the 'is g*y' one) but it'd mostly eliminate the insulting form and allow mature discussion. Anything that slips through the cracks can be whapped by an op (as it'd still be a low percentage if standard English insult-patterns in relation get the kick) and the pattern they used to slip by is added to Onos' filter.

Next, I was wondering if character-compression was in use? If not, someone could easily get around the bot with an insult currently by just drawing it out... 'g*****yyyyy!' If char-comp were in place, it'd still receive an appropriate kick. (apparently it's not on the forum boards, changed to avoid anyone who might have a problem with an insult posted even in example)

MercenaryForHire · December 2002

It's not that hard to expand a "naughty words" list. Just log an NS server and capture all the "l33t" ways of saying it.

g*y, g@y, gh3y, geigh ... etc ...

Or train it to translate amatuer l33tsp33k - eg @/4 = A, $=S etc. Strictly amateur stuff.

/me is reminded of the Mandantory 1337 Plugin
/me falls down laughing

"\\|7f d1|) j00 d0 4|)|\/|1n?!?1"

- M4H

Talesin · December 2002

Nah, the point isn't to expand the 'naughty words' list, it's to allow the use of some of the words in that list when they AREN'T being used in a derogatory/insulting manner. You just match common 'insult' context with the 'naughty words', or look for them being used on their own as an exclamation. Makes it so that people can say 'g*y', so long as they aren't saying 'you're so g*y'. Lets them converse on the topic, possibly about their own sexuality and the fun it inspired in games when people try to fling it as an insult.

Fam · December 2002

Eh? Since when was the <b>Natural Selection</b> channel on <b>Games</b>net a place to converse about their sexuality?

Spyder_Monkey · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fam @ Dec 4 2002, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Eh? Since when was the <b>Natural Selection</b> channel on <b>Games</b>net a place to converse about their sexuality?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
^^Best. Point. Ever.

Talesin · December 2002

Since it fell into the general discussion that was going on at the time? And dished out kicks to three people?

Irc Censorship!

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