<!--quoteo(post=1745658:date=Jan 4 2010, 09:31 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I'm going to contribute to this trolling/ignorance is summary of my userconfig<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All I'm going to say is: what.
<!--quoteo(post=1745659:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:58 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 4 2010, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I'm going to say is: what.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My bad for not being specific. We've been going through effects of scripts and configs in most threads of forum's existence. Still some people decide to bring in the old arguments that have been countered a dozen times already.
<!--quoteo(post=1745660:date=Jan 4 2010, 10:28 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My bad for not being specific. We've been going through effects of scripts and configs in most threads of forum's existence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, of course we are. I just don't see how your post relates to anything that was said before... Like, at all. What were you trying to say?
<!--quoteo(post=1745660:date=Jan 4 2010, 10:28 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still some people decide to bring in the old arguments that have been countered a dozen times already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Discussion is generally what happens in an open forum.
<!--quoteo(post=1745658:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:31 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 07:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I'm going to contribute to this trolling/ignorance is summary of my userconfig:
<ul><li> Rates</li><li> Jump bound on mousewheelup // I guess this is the evil scriptsz0r people talk about</li><li> +movement on mouse2 on aliens, unbound on marines (Popupmenu is on "q")</li><li> hud_fastswitch 1 </li><li> gamma "3.0" //default is 2.0</li><li> Need medpack bound on "z".</li><li> cl_gammaramp 0 // I'm running on vista, so this is necessary to get the game working properly.</li></ul>
That's my userconfig. I guess I may have made some tweaks in game, but those are the planned modifications I have, the rest should be as trivial as sensitivity or name change.
That config allows me to come to take a half a year break from NS and then come back and play relatively even games with 75% of the competetive scene during one Christmas holiday. Can we now please get back to the topic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i was speaking about "scripts'"
and it's obvious that's you don't use scripts with this config file.. so, what's your point ?
If you were using thoses bh scripts (with +duck for not being catch by walls in skulk, and +jump + jump + jump / wait / thing on one button) or lerk scripts with (+jump x40) or pistol script with +fire * 10 on one button.
Meh, now that I look at this thread, tgaud has similar arguments in both cheating thread and this, revolving around scripted bhop, configs and scripts. I guess it would have been better spot on on the cheating thread, although he somewhat <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=108508&view=findpost&p=1745651" target="_blank">mentions it here too.</a> My bad. Still, I'd like to always defend against such accusations because a lot of people actually seem to have a lot of terrible misconceptions about the organised play and its requiriments and goals.
Anyway, it was derail so, we on back to the actual topic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think things like these are rather what you'd call "sacrifices", where the payoff for implementing or removing something just isn't high enough to outbalance player frustration. Backpedalling into your teammate when you're looking for cover is not a good thing on any level of play...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sacrifices is partitially right. I feel the present games are setting the basic level of play so low that it a part of the playtime becomes a dull routine with very little chance of failure. Meanwhile NS sets the bar relatively high and there's always something you can improve even in your basic game.
Backpedaling into teammates happens because the team isn't co-operating properly. In NS styled game the approach directions and firing lines are most often in every players' consideration and they are also supposed to be challenging and sometimes risky things. Even moving from point A to point B becomes a somewhat challenging and interesting because of all the possible factors you can account, including the dodging and positions in case of ambush.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is a very gray area here. I'm still having trouble seeing the difference between "challenging" and "adapting", per se.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being forced to adapt your thinking to the gameplay is just part of the challenge the game sets. For example in NS I play with completely different mindset than in Quake. The casual gaming mammoth TF2 on the other hand is designed to give players moments of success, no matter if they do anything to adapt into the game. Take the famous crits as an example where rather random spammage results in occassional frags, no matter if they were deserved or not.
Edit: As for tgaud, I just pointed out that I play without any config messup and I'm still doing all fine in leagues and such, they are in no way as necessary or game changing as you claim. Enough of derail in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1745664:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, I'd like to always defend against such accusations because a lot of people actually seem to have a lot of terrible misconceptions about the organised play and its requiriments and goals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, I get it: you thought we were talking about how evil horrible competitive players use scripts to gain advantage in play.
Not quite. We were talking about what such thing as scripts themselves do to gameplay, and whether or not they contribute or hinder gameplay, skill curve, skill ceiling, etc. Which is sort of the point of the topic: I expect NS2 to be well-thought out enough to avoid mistakes like making people reach out for scripts at all (e.g. no automatic pistols).
<!--quoteo(post=1745664:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Backpedaling into teammates happens because the team isn't co-operating properly. In NS styled game the approach directions and firing lines are most often in every players' consideration and they are also supposed to be challenging and sometimes risky things. Even moving from point A to point B becomes a somewhat challenging and interesting because of all the possible factors you can account, including the dodging and positions in case of ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't see avoiding such things as back-pedalling/strafing into someone being a possibility at all, no matter how good co-operation is. Firing lines are a different thing altogether though: they're still in effect even if player collision is off.
Removing it does indeed sacrifice a certain aspect of the gameplay, but offers a whole lot less frustration in return, it's the matter of weighing one against the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1745664:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being forced to adapt your thinking to the gameplay is just part of the challenge the game sets. For example in NS I play with completely different mindset than in Quake. The casual gaming mammoth TF2 on the other hand is designed to give players moments of success, no matter if they do anything to adapt into the game. Take the famous crits as an example where rather random spammage results in occassional frags, no matter if they were deserved or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You lost me.
As a sidenote, crits are actually meant to do the opposite: to give players that are doing good even more momentum. They don't do that as well as they're meant to, but that's the question of implementation: I still have no idea why don't Valve just go with gradual damage ramp-up if they want that...
Glad we came to some sort of an accord. You seemed a sporting chap.
But anyways.
I would really say giving every player something like a pistol-script-feature (hold down mouse 1, rapidfire!!) is sort of silly. The arguments surrounding BHopping aside, finger-gymnastics are NOT that bad of a thing. Christ, look at Star Craft. The simultaneous micro/maco-management, which heavily relies on hotkeys and clicking around the map wildly in what seems to be incomprehensible to the untrained eye, is a huge part of the game. The only point which I agree with people who are against bhopping, is that its a engine bug/exploit (I mean that in the LEAST negative way. Usually "Exploit" gets tossed around with a really bad tude. I still enjoy bhopping and the reward it can provide), and not necessarily "intentional," and it is a bit hidden, yes (although that made it all the more sweet when I got it down).
But putting bhopping aside, giving players a one-touch to play button can really lead to dumbing down gameplay. SOMETIMES some simplification is a good thing, since there is such thing as TOO complicated, as +movement was actually a good addition in a lot of ways, but doing things like giving players a one-button lmg-fire-pistol (why even have a pistol in that case????) is moving in the wrong direction I feel D:
Also, I in no way want to restart another topic about bhopping/leap-bite/rage/etc. Its just that there is a fine line that really needs to not be crossed, as ambiguous as it is.
Also, I'm totally against scripts (like bhop and pistol-script) and see nothing wrong with removing those from the game. Instead of giving EVERYONE a pistol script, just take away everyones. This leaves the skill of rapid-pistol-fire intact (call it button mashing if you will, but keeping a steady aim and pumping out those bullets so fast is damned impressive, and should be rewarded imo).
<!--quoteo(post=1745668:date=Jan 4 2010, 12:09 PM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I'm totally against scripts (like bhop and pistol-script) and see nothing wrong with removing those from the game. Instead of giving EVERYONE a pistol script, just take away everyones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing to understand about this: this just isn't going to happen. Scripting will still be available outside the engine, always has been (it's not exactly complicated either).
Scripting is really nothing more than a garden variety attempt at simplifying a control action. As such, it's actually an indication that the game is making players go through unnecessary control hurdles, which should generally be avoided at all times.
<!--quoteo(post=1745667:date=Jan 4 2010, 09:46 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 4 2010, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You lost me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh well, I'm not sure how to explain the whole thingy, I'm not sure if I even understand it completely myself. The bottom line is that I want to step into a game and live with it rules while the new games try to step into every players' world simultenously and live with their rules. At that point the game easily ends up being unfocused and doesn't feel the exact thing you're looking from a game.
Such 'wide audience' games are nice when you need to kill some time, but they haven't at least so far provoked as much thoughts in me as a game like NS where you can speculate with various moves for long periods of time and mastering the fluid control over situations takes time to learn. For me the casual games have been a little bit like watching a film with Adam Sandler in it: You know what you get and most likely it's good enough to watch once, but don't expect any life changing experience.
Of course nothing states that Adam Sandler couldn't actually make an actually good movie at some point, so far he just hasn't pulled it off...
<!--quoteo(post=1745682:date=Jan 4 2010, 01:44 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh well, I'm not sure how to explain the whole thingy, I'm not sure if I even understand it completely myself. The bottom line is that I want to step into a game and live with it rules while the new games try to step into every players' world simultenously and live with their rules. At that point the game easily ends up being unfocused and doesn't feel the exact thing you're looking from a game.
Such 'wide audience' games are nice when you need to kill some time, but they haven't at least so far provoked as much thoughts in me as a game like NS where you can speculate with various moves for long periods of time and mastering the fluid control over situations takes time to learn. For me the casual games have been a little bit like watching a film with Adam Sandler in it: You know what you get and most likely it's good enough to watch once, but don't expect any life changing experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This gets more and more confusing.
While I get the general gist of what you're talking about, I just don't see it as remotely objective. If there's a difference besides personal preference, I'm sure it can be put on paper somehow... Not that I wouldn't understand if you gave up on me already. :p
<!--quoteo(post=1745701:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:24 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Jan 4 2010, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tazers in <i>my</i> NS2!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not anymore. No bros to be tased as far as we know.
<!--quoteo(post=1745626:date=Jan 4 2010, 03:15 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 4 2010, 03:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a skill per se, it's simply a secret, and a routine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bhopping? Honestly now, hardly. To me that's like saying rocket jump in Quake is just a perk, no skill involved.
<!--quoteo(post=1745641:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:35 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 3 2010, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oi. When did that happen?..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long time ago, the devs (pretty sure the devs said this :P) announced that NS1 was first contact and NS2 would be all out war, featuring drop ships dumping off ammo and weapon racks of guns + jeeps... all of this versus thousands of onoses and fades etc.
Then the devs would say that their was a fan outcry that NS2 should be like NS1... i.e. close quarters tight hallways (although they seem to want giant rooms and no hallways... but NS1 + new graphics and features nonetheless). Personally i think the devs realized you would need an engine like Crysis to pull off such a open ended war... and maybe they doubted wanting to do this (either because they lacked the skill, or that only a minority of the community could run a game like Crysis). Well i can run Crysis :P
<!--quoteo(post=1745717:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:36 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 4 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhopping? Honestly now, hardly. To me that's like saying rocket jump in Quake is just a perk, no skill involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends on what kind of RJing it is: directional, wall-bouncing, or just the kind where you can bind it to a button and be done with it? The latter is anything but a skill (and most common in Q3 to the best of my experience).
Bhopping in itself doesn't qualify as a skill in itself in my opinion, although the momentum control associated with it does. If you want the latter, you very well can give it to players by default instead of going through the counter-intuitive and repetitive control associated with it. Similar thing with RJ: precision or wall-RJing is a skill, pointing the mouse at your feet and firing isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1745732:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:49 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 4 2010, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long time ago, the devs (pretty sure the devs said this :P) announced that NS1 was first contact and NS2 would be all out war, featuring drop ships dumping off ammo and weapon racks of guns + jeeps... all of this versus thousands of onoses and fades etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick.
<!--quoteo(post=1745614:date=Jan 3 2010, 11:59 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 3 2010, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly the word "casual" resembles "bad" more every day. Effort shouldn't be shunned so much. I guess the biggest problem with it is that there is so much effort to be taken in so many things and the majority of them is not worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, well, the opposite of 'casual' doesn't automatically make a game GOOD like what certain people seem to imply.
Bunnyhopping, for example. There's this mentality that if your game doesn't have bunnyhopping, it's casual ###### and will suck. No. Bhop does not work as a Feature of Fun +5 you just slap on, especially not with the idiotic 'the skillz' non-logic that people associate with it to mandate its inclusion. This debilitating logical black hole is that the reason BHop makes a game 'fun' is it allows 'skill-based movement'. However it does not follow that we can't make everything 'skill based'. Why not have 'skill based reloading' where you play a quick-time event every time? Why not have 'skill-based welding' where a minigame pops up that you have to play whenever you're doing something with it? Frankly, the way I see it, BHop is just an imbalancing mechanic that the people who can already BHop just want in so they have a comfort zone within which they are treading the same familiar ground again because without it, would they be as good?
But I digress.
"Casual" =/= automatically bad.
"Hardcore" =/= automatically good.
I wouldn't even say MOST 'hardcore' games are good, or that any trends towards one way or the other exist whatsoever. Tribes 2 could be described as a 'more casual' version of Tribes 1, as it had speed caps and dramatic changes in gameplay associated with weaponry and vehicles. And I still say it was the single best MPFPS game ever made. If anything sours me to the idea that hardcore = good it's the fact that most 'hardcore' FPS games I can think of are very samey, borrowing the same features between each other. And I think part of the appeal to these hardcore games is that if you're good at one, you're good at them all, whereas more 'casual' FPS games typically require you to learn new skills or somesuch.
CS is a completely different game, with other skills that effectively replace bunny hopping, like weapon fast switching, etc.
Also CS isn't any where near as deep as NS in terms of teamwork, and in my opinion also in term of skill requirements from individual players....
Also skill based reload or welding could be fun, if it was as varied and took as much practice as bunny hopping, it would be a worthwile addition to the game. The idea actually sounds kinda cool to me :-D I have no idea how you would do that... but doing something like a quick time event for reloading would be very lame and a chore. But if there was a trade off, like tapping the 'r' key in a certain rhythm allowed you to load your gun faster, but reduced your walk speed, or something like that, it would be awesome.
Bunny hopping is entirely unlike a quick time event. I don't know why people think it something you can just memorize and suddenly you are good at it... Bunny hoping is not only hard to do in the context of a fire fight, but it also comes with the trade off of speed vs predictability of movement, and makes accurately moving difficult and rewarding.
Few things in any fps are as satisfying as getting a perfect bhop going at the right time, and closing distance for a kill as a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1745750:date=Jan 5 2010, 08:11 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 5 2010, 08:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping, for example. There's this mentality that if your game doesn't have bunnyhopping, it's casual ###### and will suck. No. Bhop does not work as a Feature of Fun +5 you just slap on, especially not with the idiotic 'the skillz' non-logic that people associate with it to mandate its inclusion ... Frankly, the way I see it, BHop is just an imbalancing mechanic that the people who can already BHop just want in so they have a comfort zone within which they are treading the same familiar ground again because without it, would they be as good?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can safely say I agree with pretty much all of your post, but these parts in particular. If bopping adds a fun factor to the game, we should be able to implement it without replicating the control chore associated with it. And no crying if we do.
(Not NS2 developers in particular, that is, developers in general.)
And, surprisingly, back on topic... I honestly expect UW to know about things like this. If not, oh well.
<!--quoteo(post=1745752:date=Jan 5 2010, 08:32 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 5 2010, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but doing something like a quick time event for reloading would be very lame and a chore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gears of War does that. It's fun.
Did you plan to add some "control" abilities ? Like the old "stomp"
It can be very fun, for example, once a marine is parasited, he moves slower, or something like this Or once a marine breathe the lerk poison, his vision change a little (colour or movment)
TFC 1 had plenty of things like it.
TFC concussion grenade (make the crosshair move alone, more difficult to aim for a few sec) implementation : (if a marine breathe the lerk poison) -> add more even more supply role to lerk. And it's a good way to have skill for some people , by learning to aim precisely even with this
TFC Hallucination/paranoia grenade (the player can hear things like if he was attacked) : We could make the marine hear "skulk" or "bite" for 5-7sec even is there isn't). implementation : -> could be a good thing, once a player is parasited, it can create a little confusion in the marine stack, and giving a lonely skulk a "little" chance. And skilled people can be concentrated and learn to play without extra paranoia
the TFC rockets wich could eject the ennemy player far away and playing pinball with him. implementation : -> don't know how to implement this... maybe an effect to the onos attack or charge ?
the flamethrower, bloking the vision with flame implementation : no idea
the littles pikes dropped on ground, making the player move slower. implementation : -> good idea for a player attacked by an OC chamber , he become slower, and by the way more vunerable to OC.
From what i can remember, the possibility to act on the behavior of the other team (and not just kill them), added a lot of fun to the game, and a lot of strategy too.
You can even find some control for marine too...
For example grenade make the alien have less adrenaline, and lerk can't flight for two or three sec. It would add some strategy use of the grenade, and not only a "skulk in vent" weapon. Add a special poison upgrade that make the alien hit by a knife, frozen for one second (but can attack). (useless without teamplay)
etc... (i've been thinking on it since less than 5min and i've plenty of idea already, so you can find idea yourself).
I'm not telling everything is a good idea, but i think that getting some of them (or others) could really add something to the game. Witout giving a real "firepower" advantage , it could add some GOOD way to split good player and bad ones.
And it's rewarding the teamplay and without giving some real advantage, it can need some organization, the thing that made a difference on NS 1 and the thing that make difference on league.
The difference between "skill based welding" and "skill based movement" is that for the alien team movement is the only hard thing they have. It is their equivalent of aiming. You'll notice nobody wants bunnyhopping for marines.
I wouldn't mind "skill based welding", personally. It's a non-eventful thing, surely something can be done to lighten it up.
Always wanted to see welding more like you'd do it in real life: moving the welder along contour of the doorframe. I don't think it can be done with the classic hitbox/playerview setup though.
<!--quoteo(post=1745753:date=Jan 5 2010, 05:45 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 5 2010, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can safely say I agree with pretty much all of your post, but these parts in particular. If bopping adds a fun factor to the game, we should be able to implement it without replicating the control chore associated with it. And no crying if we do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tribes 1 had a bug where if you were sliding down a hill and rapidly mashed the crap out of your spacebar, you'd start a frictionless slide. This came to be known as skiing, so that you'd preserve your momentum and turn it into lateral speed.
As skiing gradually became a very important part of the game, and proper skiing required being able to 'see' ski trails in the terrain itself (and thereby plot and manipulate your jetpack and such to utilize it) it eventually was just part of the game itself.
Tribes 2, naturally, saw that skiing was eponymous with the franchise by this point, and implemented it as well - however, they removed the idiotic requirement to mash your spacebar. Instead you simply held it down. While space was held down, you'd slide. That was it. The proper movement associations WITH skiing were intact - the extraneous space-mashing was not.
So why shouldn't NS automate bunnyhopping?
Point is, we could associate some sort of irritating mechanic into every aspect of the game and simply call everyone who doesn't 'get it' a scrub noob. Someone, somewhere would be able to master the most irritating of tasks and you could call it skill. Does that mean it's necessary? That it makes the game more 'fun'? Why not make it so your mouse axis flip around whenever you're climbing on the wall as a skulk, so if you're at a 90 degree angle and the ground is to the right, your left-right motions with the mouse translate to up-down in-game? Does that make any less sense than a skulk being able to flip on cruise control by constantly leaping?
Updated survey results. We finally have a person who wants NS2 to resemble WoW more than anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1745774:date=Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tribes 2, naturally, saw that skiing was eponymous with the franchise by this point, and implemented it as well - however, they removed the idiotic requirement to mash your spacebar. Instead you simply held it down. While space was held down, you'd slide. That was it. The proper movement associations WITH skiing were intact - the extraneous space-mashing was not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, precisely the kind of thing I was talking about. As opposed to Quake approach where bhopping, while being an acknowledged part of the game, was never really automated.
This might ultimately come down to good old Occam's razor: don't overcomplicate any in-game action.
<!--quoteo(post=1745774:date=Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why shouldn't NS automate bunnyhopping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If possible, I see no reason not to do this. Indeed, in any game, or any situation. Whether or not bhopping itself is relevant is another question, and there's not much of NS2 to look at yet to judge the context.
I'm expecting NS2 to be the mod community's wet dream. I liked the original NS, but I don't know if NS2 will be a great game at first. I don't know if it will be balanced for massive casual play while still giving the hardcore competitors something to work with.
The important thing is that I think NS2 has all of the tools and potential to be a great game, but more importantly, it has the features required to build a diverse community. Its highly-moddable, LUA engine interface could easily make it this the next mod community hit. That's what I'm really hoping for. even if the guys at Unknown Worlds don't have the formula exactly right, they effectively extend their development team by thousands of ravenous fanboys by honoring their roots within the mod community. It's exciting :)
I just hope for good marketing this time, frequent balance changes and fixes (more important than all that editor stuff), and alpha release in january. lol, kidding.
Geez... Honestly Draco_2k you could try to be a bit more concise with your posts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Depends on what kind of RJing it is: directional, wall-bouncing, or just the kind where you can bind it to a button and be done with it? The latter is anything but a skill (and most common in Q3 to the best of my experience).
Bhopping in itself doesn't qualify as a skill in itself in my opinion, although the momentum control associated with it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course I meant bhopping and everything associated with it. By common sense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want the latter, you very well can give it to players by default instead of going through the counter-intuitive and repetitive control associated with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here you say it's possible...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why shouldn't NS automate bunnyhopping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If possible, I see no reason not to do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and here you doubt it. Or do you?
I don't mean to come out as an ass but it's just my natural tendency to diss people overexplaining stuff. >_>' SOWWY. =P
So, I've read every post and focusing on the breach between casual game and competitive game, I'll start out with this basic fact:
Casual games nowadays <i>usually</i> sell more than competitive games.
We are too focused on small details, such as bhopping and the like, but look at the big picture. Look at UW itself.
First, remember that Unknown Worlds is a company composed of the NS team and a few more. As a company, they MUST keep in mind self-preservation or they will die, and if that happens, they can forget about "Uniting the World through Play." Money is now much more important.
Second, they are selling a retail game and NOT a free mod. They are not competing against other mods now, but other retail games, where the competition is much more fierce.
<u>What do I expect NS2 to be?</u>
NS2 will probably appeal to the competitive gamer types, just like NS1. Expect a deeper version of NS1 on the teamwork level and individual level, but unfortunately, equally rough on new players. The fans will love the game. I certainly will. They will spread the word. But how big is this fan-base exactly? How much revenue will be gained? Will UW keep charging us money to keep themselves afloat? What exactly happens after NS2 comes out?
The Business Model looks like this: the game will be good enough to generate tons of revenue, with a wonderful modding community to boot. Well, with a team of less than 20 people, how will they compete against the next Call of Duty or WoW: Catacylsm, which has probably over 100 people working on it? Thus, NS2 will probably be a small game, and with that in mind the modders must be absolutely critical to its success. So much so, that people will want to buy NS2 simply to play the bad-ass mods, much like people bought Half-Life to play CS, or Warcraft 3 to play DOTA.
Hopefully I don't have to explain the riskiness of this business model, especially if they choose to appeal to the NS fans alone.
Comments
All I'm going to say is: what.
My bad for not being specific. We've been going through effects of scripts and configs in most threads of forum's existence. Still some people decide to bring in the old arguments that have been countered a dozen times already.
Well, of course we are. I just don't see how your post relates to anything that was said before... Like, at all. What were you trying to say?
<!--quoteo(post=1745660:date=Jan 4 2010, 10:28 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still some people decide to bring in the old arguments that have been countered a dozen times already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Discussion is generally what happens in an open forum.
<ul><li> Rates</li><li> Jump bound on mousewheelup // I guess this is the evil scriptsz0r people talk about</li><li> +movement on mouse2 on aliens, unbound on marines (Popupmenu is on "q")</li><li> hud_fastswitch 1 </li><li> gamma "3.0" //default is 2.0</li><li> Need medpack bound on "z".</li><li> cl_gammaramp 0 // I'm running on vista, so this is necessary to get the game working properly.</li></ul>
That's my userconfig. I guess I may have made some tweaks in game, but those are the planned modifications I have, the rest should be as trivial as sensitivity or name change.
That config allows me to come to take a half a year break from NS and then come back and play relatively even games with 75% of the competetive scene during one Christmas holiday. Can we now please get back to the topic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i was speaking about "scripts'"
and it's obvious that's you don't use scripts with this config file.. so, what's your point ?
If you were using thoses bh scripts (with +duck for not being catch by walls in skulk, and +jump + jump + jump / wait / thing on one button)
or lerk scripts with (+jump x40) or pistol script with +fire * 10 on one button.
Or the stranges configuration like Fov 140°
this would've been a different matter.
Anyway, it was derail so, we on back to the actual topic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think things like these are rather what you'd call "sacrifices", where the payoff for implementing or removing something just isn't high enough to outbalance player frustration. Backpedalling into your teammate when you're looking for cover is not a good thing on any level of play...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sacrifices is partitially right. I feel the present games are setting the basic level of play so low that it a part of the playtime becomes a dull routine with very little chance of failure. Meanwhile NS sets the bar relatively high and there's always something you can improve even in your basic game.
Backpedaling into teammates happens because the team isn't co-operating properly. In NS styled game the approach directions and firing lines are most often in every players' consideration and they are also supposed to be challenging and sometimes risky things. Even moving from point A to point B becomes a somewhat challenging and interesting because of all the possible factors you can account, including the dodging and positions in case of ambush.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is a very gray area here. I'm still having trouble seeing the difference between "challenging" and "adapting", per se.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being forced to adapt your thinking to the gameplay is just part of the challenge the game sets. For example in NS I play with completely different mindset than in Quake. The casual gaming mammoth TF2 on the other hand is designed to give players moments of success, no matter if they do anything to adapt into the game. Take the famous crits as an example where rather random spammage results in occassional frags, no matter if they were deserved or not.
Edit: As for tgaud, I just pointed out that I play without any config messup and I'm still doing all fine in leagues and such, they are in no way as necessary or game changing as you claim. Enough of derail in my opinion.
Oh, I get it: you thought we were talking about how evil horrible competitive players use scripts to gain advantage in play.
Not quite. We were talking about what such thing as scripts themselves do to gameplay, and whether or not they contribute or hinder gameplay, skill curve, skill ceiling, etc. Which is sort of the point of the topic: I expect NS2 to be well-thought out enough to avoid mistakes like making people reach out for scripts at all (e.g. no automatic pistols).
<!--quoteo(post=1745664:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Backpedaling into teammates happens because the team isn't co-operating properly. In NS styled game the approach directions and firing lines are most often in every players' consideration and they are also supposed to be challenging and sometimes risky things. Even moving from point A to point B becomes a somewhat challenging and interesting because of all the possible factors you can account, including the dodging and positions in case of ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't see avoiding such things as back-pedalling/strafing into someone being a possibility at all, no matter how good co-operation is. Firing lines are a different thing altogether though: they're still in effect even if player collision is off.
Removing it does indeed sacrifice a certain aspect of the gameplay, but offers a whole lot less frustration in return, it's the matter of weighing one against the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1745664:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 4 2010, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being forced to adapt your thinking to the gameplay is just part of the challenge the game sets. For example in NS I play with completely different mindset than in Quake. The casual gaming mammoth TF2 on the other hand is designed to give players moments of success, no matter if they do anything to adapt into the game. Take the famous crits as an example where rather random spammage results in occassional frags, no matter if they were deserved or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You lost me.
As a sidenote, crits are actually meant to do the opposite: to give players that are doing good even more momentum. They don't do that as well as they're meant to, but that's the question of implementation: I still have no idea why don't Valve just go with gradual damage ramp-up if they want that...
But anyways.
I would really say giving every player something like a pistol-script-feature (hold down mouse 1, rapidfire!!) is sort of silly. The arguments surrounding BHopping aside, finger-gymnastics are NOT that bad of a thing. Christ, look at Star Craft. The simultaneous micro/maco-management, which heavily relies on hotkeys and clicking around the map wildly in what seems to be incomprehensible to the untrained eye, is a huge part of the game. The only point which I agree with people who are against bhopping, is that its a engine bug/exploit (I mean that in the LEAST negative way. Usually "Exploit" gets tossed around with a really bad tude. I still enjoy bhopping and the reward it can provide), and not necessarily "intentional," and it is a bit hidden, yes (although that made it all the more sweet when I got it down).
But putting bhopping aside, giving players a one-touch to play button can really lead to dumbing down gameplay. SOMETIMES some simplification is a good thing, since there is such thing as TOO complicated, as +movement was actually a good addition in a lot of ways, but doing things like giving players a one-button lmg-fire-pistol (why even have a pistol in that case????) is moving in the wrong direction I feel D:
Also, I in no way want to restart another topic about bhopping/leap-bite/rage/etc. Its just that there is a fine line that really needs to not be crossed, as ambiguous as it is.
Also, I'm totally against scripts (like bhop and pistol-script) and see nothing wrong with removing those from the game. Instead of giving EVERYONE a pistol script, just take away everyones. This leaves the skill of rapid-pistol-fire intact (call it button mashing if you will, but keeping a steady aim and pumping out those bullets so fast is damned impressive, and should be rewarded imo).
The thing to understand about this: this just isn't going to happen. Scripting will still be available outside the engine, always has been (it's not exactly complicated either).
Scripting is really nothing more than a garden variety attempt at simplifying a control action. As such, it's actually an indication that the game is making players go through unnecessary control hurdles, which should generally be avoided at all times.
Oh well, I'm not sure how to explain the whole thingy, I'm not sure if I even understand it completely myself. The bottom line is that I want to step into a game and live with it rules while the new games try to step into every players' world simultenously and live with their rules. At that point the game easily ends up being unfocused and doesn't feel the exact thing you're looking from a game.
Such 'wide audience' games are nice when you need to kill some time, but they haven't at least so far provoked as much thoughts in me as a game like NS where you can speculate with various moves for long periods of time and mastering the fluid control over situations takes time to learn. For me the casual games have been a little bit like watching a film with Adam Sandler in it: You know what you get and most likely it's good enough to watch once, but don't expect any life changing experience.
Of course nothing states that Adam Sandler couldn't actually make an actually good movie at some point, so far he just hasn't pulled it off...
Such 'wide audience' games are nice when you need to kill some time, but they haven't at least so far provoked as much thoughts in me as a game like NS where you can speculate with various moves for long periods of time and mastering the fluid control over situations takes time to learn. For me the casual games have been a little bit like watching a film with Adam Sandler in it: You know what you get and most likely it's good enough to watch once, but don't expect any life changing experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gets more and more confusing.
While I get the general gist of what you're talking about, I just don't see it as remotely objective. If there's a difference besides personal preference, I'm sure it can be put on paper somehow... Not that I wouldn't understand if you gave up on me already. :p
Not anymore. No bros to be tased as far as we know.
Bhopping? Honestly now, hardly. To me that's like saying rocket jump in Quake is just a perk, no skill involved.
Long time ago, the devs (pretty sure the devs said this :P) announced that NS1 was first contact and NS2 would be all out war, featuring drop ships dumping off ammo and weapon racks of guns + jeeps... all of this versus thousands of onoses and fades etc.
Then the devs would say that their was a fan outcry that NS2 should be like NS1... i.e. close quarters tight hallways (although they seem to want giant rooms and no hallways... but NS1 + new graphics and features nonetheless). Personally i think the devs realized you would need an engine like Crysis to pull off such a open ended war... and maybe they doubted wanting to do this (either because they lacked the skill, or that only a minority of the community could run a game like Crysis). Well i can run Crysis :P
Depends on what kind of RJing it is: directional, wall-bouncing, or just the kind where you can bind it to a button and be done with it? The latter is anything but a skill (and most common in Q3 to the best of my experience).
Bhopping in itself doesn't qualify as a skill in itself in my opinion, although the momentum control associated with it does. If you want the latter, you very well can give it to players by default instead of going through the counter-intuitive and repetitive control associated with it. Similar thing with RJ: precision or wall-RJing is a skill, pointing the mouse at your feet and firing isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1745732:date=Jan 4 2010, 11:49 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 4 2010, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long time ago, the devs (pretty sure the devs said this :P) announced that NS1 was first contact and NS2 would be all out war, featuring drop ships dumping off ammo and weapon racks of guns + jeeps... all of this versus thousands of onoses and fades etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick.
Yes, well, the opposite of 'casual' doesn't automatically make a game GOOD like what certain people seem to imply.
Bunnyhopping, for example. There's this mentality that if your game doesn't have bunnyhopping, it's casual ###### and will suck. No. Bhop does not work as a Feature of Fun +5 you just slap on, especially not with the idiotic 'the skillz' non-logic that people associate with it to mandate its inclusion. This debilitating logical black hole is that the reason BHop makes a game 'fun' is it allows 'skill-based movement'. However it does not follow that we can't make everything 'skill based'. Why not have 'skill based reloading' where you play a quick-time event every time? Why not have 'skill-based welding' where a minigame pops up that you have to play whenever you're doing something with it? Frankly, the way I see it, BHop is just an imbalancing mechanic that the people who can already BHop just want in so they have a comfort zone within which they are treading the same familiar ground again because without it, would they be as good?
But I digress.
"Casual" =/= automatically bad.
"Hardcore" =/= automatically good.
I wouldn't even say MOST 'hardcore' games are good, or that any trends towards one way or the other exist whatsoever. Tribes 2 could be described as a 'more casual' version of Tribes 1, as it had speed caps and dramatic changes in gameplay associated with weaponry and vehicles. And I still say it was the single best MPFPS game ever made. If anything sours me to the idea that hardcore = good it's the fact that most 'hardcore' FPS games I can think of are very samey, borrowing the same features between each other. And I think part of the appeal to these hardcore games is that if you're good at one, you're good at them all, whereas more 'casual' FPS games typically require you to learn new skills or somesuch.
Isn't it competitive each years ?
Also CS isn't any where near as deep as NS in terms of teamwork, and in my opinion also in term of skill requirements from individual players....
Also skill based reload or welding could be fun, if it was as varied and took as much practice as bunny hopping, it would be a worthwile addition to the game. The idea actually sounds kinda cool to me :-D I have no idea how you would do that... but doing something like a quick time event for reloading would be very lame and a chore. But if there was a trade off, like tapping the 'r' key in a certain rhythm allowed you to load your gun faster, but reduced your walk speed, or something like that, it would be awesome.
Bunny hopping is entirely unlike a quick time event. I don't know why people think it something you can just memorize and suddenly you are good at it... Bunny hoping is not only hard to do in the context of a fire fight, but it also comes with the trade off of speed vs predictability of movement, and makes accurately moving difficult and rewarding.
Few things in any fps are as satisfying as getting a perfect bhop going at the right time, and closing distance for a kill as a skulk.
I can safely say I agree with pretty much all of your post, but these parts in particular. If bopping adds a fun factor to the game, we should be able to implement it without replicating the control chore associated with it. And no crying if we do.
(Not NS2 developers in particular, that is, developers in general.)
And, surprisingly, back on topic... I honestly expect UW to know about things like this. If not, oh well.
<!--quoteo(post=1745752:date=Jan 5 2010, 08:32 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 5 2010, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but doing something like a quick time event for reloading would be very lame and a chore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gears of War does that. It's fun.
Did you plan to add some "control" abilities ?
Like the old "stomp"
It can be very fun, for example, once a marine is parasited, he moves slower, or something like this
Or once a marine breathe the lerk poison, his vision change a little (colour or movment)
TFC 1 had plenty of things like it.
TFC concussion grenade (make the crosshair move alone, more difficult to aim for a few sec)
implementation :
(if a marine breathe the lerk poison) -> add more even more supply role to lerk.
And it's a good way to have skill for some people , by learning to aim precisely even with this
TFC Hallucination/paranoia grenade (the player can hear things like if he was attacked) : We could make the marine hear "skulk" or "bite" for 5-7sec even is there isn't).
implementation :
-> could be a good thing, once a player is parasited, it can create a little confusion in the marine stack, and giving a lonely skulk a "little" chance.
And skilled people can be concentrated and learn to play without extra paranoia
the TFC rockets wich could eject the ennemy player far away and playing pinball with him.
implementation :
-> don't know how to implement this... maybe an effect to the onos attack or charge ?
the flamethrower, bloking the vision with flame
implementation : no idea
the littles pikes dropped on ground, making the player move slower.
implementation :
-> good idea for a player attacked by an OC chamber , he become slower, and by the way more vunerable to OC.
From what i can remember, the possibility to act on the behavior of the other team (and not just kill them), added a lot of fun to the game, and a lot of strategy too.
You can even find some control for marine too...
For example grenade make the alien have less adrenaline, and lerk can't flight for two or three sec. It would add some strategy use of the grenade, and not only a "skulk in vent" weapon.
Add a special poison upgrade that make the alien hit by a knife, frozen for one second (but can attack). (useless without teamplay)
etc... (i've been thinking on it since less than 5min and i've plenty of idea already, so you can find idea yourself).
I'm not telling everything is a good idea, but i think that getting some of them (or others) could really add something to the game.
Witout giving a real "firepower" advantage , it could add some GOOD way to split good player and bad ones.
And it's rewarding the teamplay and without giving some real advantage, it can need some organization, the thing that made a difference on NS 1 and the thing that make difference on league.
Always wanted to see welding more like you'd do it in real life: moving the welder along contour of the doorframe. I don't think it can be done with the classic hitbox/playerview setup though.
Tribes 1 had a bug where if you were sliding down a hill and rapidly mashed the crap out of your spacebar, you'd start a frictionless slide. This came to be known as skiing, so that you'd preserve your momentum and turn it into lateral speed.
As skiing gradually became a very important part of the game, and proper skiing required being able to 'see' ski trails in the terrain itself (and thereby plot and manipulate your jetpack and such to utilize it) it eventually was just part of the game itself.
Tribes 2, naturally, saw that skiing was eponymous with the franchise by this point, and implemented it as well - however, they removed the idiotic requirement to mash your spacebar. Instead you simply held it down. While space was held down, you'd slide. That was it. The proper movement associations WITH skiing were intact - the extraneous space-mashing was not.
So why shouldn't NS automate bunnyhopping?
Point is, we could associate some sort of irritating mechanic into every aspect of the game and simply call everyone who doesn't 'get it' a scrub noob. Someone, somewhere would be able to master the most irritating of tasks and you could call it skill. Does that mean it's necessary? That it makes the game more 'fun'? Why not make it so your mouse axis flip around whenever you're climbing on the wall as a skulk, so if you're at a 90 degree angle and the ground is to the right, your left-right motions with the mouse translate to up-down in-game? Does that make any less sense than a skulk being able to flip on cruise control by constantly leaping?
<!--quoteo(post=1745774:date=Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tribes 2, naturally, saw that skiing was eponymous with the franchise by this point, and implemented it as well - however, they removed the idiotic requirement to mash your spacebar. Instead you simply held it down. While space was held down, you'd slide. That was it. The proper movement associations WITH skiing were intact - the extraneous space-mashing was not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, precisely the kind of thing I was talking about. As opposed to Quake approach where bhopping, while being an acknowledged part of the game, was never really automated.
This might ultimately come down to good old Occam's razor: don't overcomplicate any in-game action.
<!--quoteo(post=1745774:date=Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 5 2010, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why shouldn't NS automate bunnyhopping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If possible, I see no reason not to do this. Indeed, in any game, or any situation. Whether or not bhopping itself is relevant is another question, and there's not much of NS2 to look at yet to judge the context.
The important thing is that I think NS2 has all of the tools and potential to be a great game, but more importantly, it has the features required to build a diverse community. Its highly-moddable, LUA engine interface could easily make it this the next mod community hit. That's what I'm really hoping for. even if the guys at Unknown Worlds don't have the formula exactly right, they effectively extend their development team by thousands of ravenous fanboys by honoring their roots within the mod community. It's exciting :)
All that stuff about modding and lua
look what happened to Gmod
ps do you ever sleep draco_2k? u've posted every 2 hours
or are you really a vampire
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Depends on what kind of RJing it is: directional, wall-bouncing, or just the kind where you can bind it to a button and be done with it? The latter is anything but a skill (and most common in Q3 to the best of my experience).
Bhopping in itself doesn't qualify as a skill in itself in my opinion, although the momentum control associated with it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I meant bhopping and everything associated with it. By common sense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want the latter, you very well can give it to players by default instead of going through the counter-intuitive and repetitive control associated with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here you say it's possible...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why shouldn't NS automate bunnyhopping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If possible, I see no reason not to do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...and here you doubt it. Or do you?
I don't mean to come out as an ass but it's just my natural tendency to diss people overexplaining stuff. >_>' SOWWY. =P
Casual games nowadays <i>usually</i> sell more than competitive games.
We are too focused on small details, such as bhopping and the like, but look at the big picture. Look at UW itself.
First, remember that Unknown Worlds is a company composed of the NS team and a few more. As a company, they MUST keep in mind self-preservation or they will die, and if that happens, they can forget about "Uniting the World through Play." Money is now much more important.
Second, they are selling a retail game and NOT a free mod. They are not competing against other mods now, but other retail games, where the competition is much more fierce.
<u>What do I expect NS2 to be?</u>
NS2 will probably appeal to the competitive gamer types, just like NS1. Expect a deeper version of NS1 on the teamwork level and individual level, but unfortunately, equally rough on new players. The fans will love the game. I certainly will. They will spread the word. But how big is this fan-base exactly? How much revenue will be gained? Will UW keep charging us money to keep themselves afloat? What exactly happens after NS2 comes out?
The Business Model looks like this: the game will be good enough to generate tons of revenue, with a wonderful modding community to boot. Well, with a team of less than 20 people, how will they compete against the next Call of Duty or WoW: Catacylsm, which has probably over 100 people working on it? Thus, NS2 will probably be a small game, and with that in mind the modders must be absolutely critical to its success. So much so, that people will want to buy NS2 simply to play the bad-ass mods, much like people bought Half-Life to play CS, or Warcraft 3 to play DOTA.
Hopefully I don't have to explain the riskiness of this business model, especially if they choose to appeal to the NS fans alone.