Valve removed tf2 grenades not because of nade spam, but because of the people that scripted, or mastered dropping a nade on death or right before death.
<!--quoteo(post=1749106:date=Jan 25 2010, 12:07 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Jan 25 2010, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well the ones who are paying more than you.... Do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You'll not receive any favour with that asinine remark. See Pipi's reply.
<!--quoteo(post=1749108:date=Jan 25 2010, 12:21 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Jan 25 2010, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Black armor is happening, they can't just give back half of their earnings or not deliver it. I have a feeling the black armor thing isn't going to be a big deal, it will be a cool bonus but nothing more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's fine, let it happen; but also let us choose to keep our game vanilla.
<!--quoteo(post=1749145:date=Jan 25 2010, 03:47 PM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Jan 25 2010, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im pretty sure NS2 wont have hats or unlocks. The devs have stated NUMEROUS times, the black armor will not effect game play at all and the skulks are already black by the way. If we payed the extra 20 then it shouldnt ever be disabled because of people who didnt pay the extra 20. You strike me as the kind of person who is like, if i dont have it then no one else should. Your already complaining about a game that isnt even released or even finished and you already want to change things, i cannot imagine the amount of threads your going to throw around once it is out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have news for you - that is a hat. You pay for a trinket and others see it in game, that's the bane of unlocks, hats, ispecial armour whatever you want to call it. It affects gameplay by cheapening it with gimmicks. I'm not saying that you can't have your black armour - I just don't want to see it if I choose to play "vanilla". You're also naive in trying to gauge my motives - you thnk this is about 'have' and 'have-not'? Having black armour is easy; having it whorrify your game is not. You strike me as the type of person who craves this type of 'specialness' in order to validate oneself. Also, waiting around for release day to air concerns is the same type of ignorance that breeds MW2.
<!--quoteo(post=1749150:date=Jan 25 2010, 04:32 PM:name=Petco)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petco @ Jan 25 2010, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with Renegade about potentially gimmicks in NS2 but disagree with him about the Taser and in general, the gameplay changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I''m not saying that the changes will necessarily result in failure, just that the type of gameplay is not in the spirit of NS1. I'm curious to know though why you feel simplified and faster combat in reduced environments with purchasable upgrades will make for better gameplay? IMO we already tried that, it was called NS: Combat.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited January 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1749190:date=Jan 26 2010, 12:58 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 26 2010, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curious to know though why you feel simplified and faster combat in reduced environments with purchasable upgrades will make for better gameplay? IMO we already tried that, it was called NS: Combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are making a lot of assumptions there though - they never said the maps will be simple (simple to navigate due to landmarks) - just less messy, and perhaps the layout of the rooms them selves will be more complex, providing a lot more strategy.
The commander still has control of the overall strategy also, marines are able to then further customise themselves within the upgrade tech boundries.
Also you realise that the black armor is for people that have shown their support to the Dev's - its like a donation. Most people bought the SE because they felt the dev's deserved it for the quality of NS1 (a free game) and they want to encourage NS2 to be the best it can. Its not really about what colour the armor is. Kind of like a constie icon.
The playable alpha can't come soon enough (I'm hoping before December). These conversations will be <b>so</b> much more interesting when someone (anyone) knows what they are talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1749193:date=Jan 25 2010, 10:40 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jan 25 2010, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are making a lot of assumptions there though - they never said the maps will be simple (simple to navigate due to landmarks) - just less messy, and perhaps the layout of the rooms them selves will be more complex, providing a lot more strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The game isn't released, everything here <b>is</b> going to be an assumption. You <i>assume</i> they mean "less messy", I assume they mean less depth. If they can slough off messiness while maintaining depth, all the better, but it's not an easy feat and thus is still a valid concern/assumption.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also you realise that the black armor is for people that have shown their support to the Dev's - its like a donation. Most people bought the SE because they felt the dev's deserved it for the quality of NS1 (a free game) and they want to encourage NS2 to be the best it can. Its not really about what colour the armor is. Kind of like a constie icon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, so there shouldn't be a problem making it a clientside option then. May as well make it easier for the competitive community now since the game claims it will support it so much.
<!--quoteo(post=1749194:date=Jan 26 2010, 04:43 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 26 2010, 04:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The playable alpha can't come soon enough (I'm hoping before December). These conversations will be <b>so</b> much more interesting when someone (anyone) knows what they are talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> These discussions would already be a lot more interesting if people bothered to think about them and actually speculate them instead of picking one opinion and blindly sticking with it. You'll rarely see people thinking how a problematic feature could be improved.
The problem is that the people arguing for or against "problematic features" have no idea whatsoever anything about the the feature they are discussing. Release the alpha already, I can't take much more of this nonsense!
<!--quoteo(post=1749190:date=Jan 26 2010, 02:58 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 26 2010, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's fine, let it happen; but also let us choose to keep our game vanilla.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black Armor is part of the game. It is vanilla. It also is in no way a hat, if it was a hat it would be on my head. Hats/armor do not affect gameplay. I have never heard anyone in tf2 go, I died because he had a hat.
Black armor will not affect or hinder gameplay at all the devs said. You cant hide better, you arnt harder to see, you cant go invisable. Black armor is to show the people who supported the game more than others. I didnt preorder for black armor though, i hardly play marines in ns1, i gave them the $40 for support and alpha. Its in no way a gimmick at all. Its kind of like doing community service and getting those free tickets to Disney.
<!--quoteo(post=1749254:date=Jan 26 2010, 02:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 26 2010, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People expecting time to be devoted to making a playable alpha immediately regardless of whether that is actually useful work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too late to ###### about that now, when they are already <i>selling </i>it to you.
<!--quoteo(post=1749242:date=Jan 26 2010, 02:21 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 26 2010, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that the people arguing for or against "problematic features" have no idea whatsoever anything about the the feature they are discussing. Release the alpha already, I can't take much more of this nonsense!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there's nothing wrong posting the worries. Other people can offer speculative solutions to the presented issues it becomes a discussion. There's no denying that features like Power Grid, new movement system and multiple commanders have possible problems of their own. The thingy is aknowledging the potential downsides and finding at least some speculative answers to them.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1749205:date=Jan 26 2010, 04:44 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 26 2010, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game isn't released, everything here <b>is</b> going to be an assumption. You <i>assume</i> they mean "less messy", I assume they mean less depth. If they can slough off messiness while maintaining depth, all the better, but it's not an easy feat and thus is still a valid concern/assumption.
Right, so there shouldn't be a problem making it a clientside option then. May as well make it easier for the competitive community now since the game claims it will support it so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1749285:date=Jan 26 2010, 05:47 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 26 2010, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too late to ###### about that now, when they are already <i>selling </i>it to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah make an alpha and get people complaining that it sucks and the game is taking too long or make the game and get people whining about the alpha.
<!--quoteo(post=1749347:date=Jan 26 2010, 10:00 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 26 2010, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah make an alpha and get people complaining that it sucks and the game is taking too long or make the game and get people whining about the alpha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet that's the decision UWE made - to sell early access to the Alpha, regardless of your opinion that they can <b>either </b>do that <b>or </b>make the game.. What were you saying earlier about people second guessing the developers?
<!--quoteo(post=1749253:date=Jan 26 2010, 09:39 AM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Jan 26 2010, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Black Armor is part of the game. It is vanilla. It also is in no way a hat, if it was a hat it would be on my head. Hats/armor do not affect gameplay. I have never heard anyone in tf2 go, I died because he had a hat.
Black armor will not affect or hinder gameplay at all the devs said. You cant hide better, you arnt harder to see, you cant go invisable. Black armor is to show the people who supported the game more than others. I didnt preorder for black armor though, i hardly play marines in ns1, i gave them the $40 for support and alpha. Its in no way a gimmick at all. Its kind of like doing community service and getting those free tickets to Disney.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You go onto say black armour is not a hat, but then you group it with hats and say it doesn't affect gameplay. It seems you are misunderstanding the point and I don't see any value in repeating myself just for one person. Suffice to say the competitive community will require it to be disabled for matches, and historically they're a better judge for what passes for "vanilla".
Obliviously you guys have never played counter-strike. If you can't spot the marine with bright blue lights on the armor you just suck or your ###### blind.
<!--quoteo(post=1749375:date=Jan 27 2010, 04:58 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 27 2010, 04:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You go onto say black armour is not a hat, but then you group it with hats and say it doesn't affect gameplay. It seems you are misunderstanding the point and I don't see any value in repeating myself just for one person. Suffice to say the competitive community will require it to be disabled for matches, and historically they're a better judge for what passes for "vanilla".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol i do play competitivly. Just because you did or maybe even still manage to do clan matchs in ns1, doesnt mean you can go around saying "Guys since we are so competitive i think its only fair that we decide what is vanilla and what isnt"
Vanilla is what a game is when it is first out, all the original things before any expansion and more than just 1 or 2 new items with updates. Since black armor is part of the game when its first out, it is vanilla.
Just because you didnt get it doesnt mean others cant enjoy it on servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1749410:date=Jan 27 2010, 05:42 AM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Jan 27 2010, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because you didnt get it doesnt mean others cant enjoy it on servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Likewise opposite for those who did. Thus my solution is best - have it toggleable. No one's seeking to prevent enjoyment; what I'm imploring is that purchases be decoupled from in-game effects. Black armour draws direct parallel with TF2 hats (both are given to those in-game who pre-purchase), sharing all its gimmickry. One of the primary concerns in this thread is to avoid exactly that.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Yeah it should be toggable.
But if it isn't, so what? Doesn't affect gameplay at all, then it doesn't matter. So what if its gimmicky? It's a business. Business is full of gimmicks. And we all know you don't buy into gimmicks. But why do you have to care about whether other people buy into gimmicks or not? It's not like this particular gimmick is particularly hurtful on the eyes.
<!--quoteo(post=1749413:date=Jan 27 2010, 11:59 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 27 2010, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Likewise opposite for those who did. Thus my solution is best - have it toggleable. No one's seeking to prevent enjoyment; what I'm imploring is that purchases be decoupled from in-game effects. Black armour draws direct parallel with TF2 hats (both are given to those in-game who pre-purchase), sharing all its gimmickry. One of the primary concerns in this thread is to avoid exactly that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the real gimmick of the 40$ preorder is the alpha.
Black armor affects gameplay 0%.
Why is it such a problem for you? Its supposed to show that we supported the game a little extra during development and shouldnt be toggleable
Im sure if you got the $40 version you wouldnt be making such a big deal out of the black armor.
the competitive community is also a majority of whiney teenraging epeen strokers. speculate all you want, no one will know until the game is released. you might as well open up spark and mash your face into your keyboard for a map.
<!--quoteo(post=1749358:date=Jan 26 2010, 11:07 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 26 2010, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet that's the decision UWE made - to sell early access to the Alpha, regardless of your opinion that they can <b>either </b>do that <b>or </b>make the game.. What were you saying earlier about people second guessing the developers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Early access to the alpha does not mean 'spend time making one as quickly as possible' it just means that some people get access to it before others.
So if it takes until next year to make the alpha as long as the preorder people get it a day before anyone else it still counts.
<!--quoteo(post=1749415:date=Jan 27 2010, 07:16 AM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Jan 27 2010, 07:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah it should be toggable. But if it isn't, so what? Doesn't affect gameplay at all, then it doesn't matter. So what if its gimmicky? It's a business. Business is full of gimmicks. And we all know you don't buy into gimmicks. But why do you have to care about whether other people buy into gimmicks or not? It's not like this particular gimmick is particularly hurtful on the eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I realize that. TF2 is also business, it's one of the best. There's not much TFC players did to convince Valve otherwise and likewise not much NS1 players can do if NS2 adopts such gimmickry. Purchased armour is just one of many foibles along this path. However this thread exists to express these fears and to hope NS2 does not fall in with the gimmick crowd. Am I willing to overlook a few gimmicks for NS2's success? Maybe, but it only takes a few sour grapes to spoil the wine.
<!--quoteo(post=1749417:date=Jan 27 2010, 07:40 AM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Jan 27 2010, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the real gimmick of the 40$ preorder is the alpha. Black armor affects gameplay 0%. Why is it such a problem for you? Its supposed to show that we supported the game a little extra during development and shouldnt be toggleable Im sure if you got the $40 version you wouldnt be making such a big deal out of the black armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) alpha cannot be a gameplay gimmick, it isn't even situated within gameplay. 2) were you around for pink skulks, gammaramping, CAL consistency checks, and teams suiciding for all-black marines? If you were, you'd know that your claim of 0% is not only naive, but false. 3,4) personal bias / vanity
You've made your point clear: you have it, therefore you want others to see - it's an argument for personal gain, not gameplay. However you misjudge my motives - I am not so vain as to have my opinion changed simply by whether or not I own SE. Case-in-point: I wouldn't bat an eye if NS1 included a client-side option to toggle player icons.
<!--quoteo(post=1749042:date=Jan 24 2010, 11:30 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 24 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Tycho - if NS2 has all the resemblance of NS1 as that of TF2 for TFC, then enjoy your wait ;) @Cybber - you said "grievances with looks and features", I assume the outlook of a game and potential features to be among those. @BadMouth - see the concept sketches, one of which you can't miss ;) You're right, it hasn't been confirmed yet, but nor has it been disconfirmed. Assuming concept sketches exist for a reason, I'm inclined to believe the prognosis should they follow through on said concept will result in ultimate-lame-space-b00b-gimmickry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait are you implying that TF2 is a bad game? If so you're the very first person I've ever heard say so.
<!--quoteo(post=1749531:date=Jan 27 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Kamakazie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kamakazie @ Jan 27 2010, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait are you implying that TF2 is a bad game? If so you're the very first person I've ever heard say so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TF2 is to gaming as Britney Spears is to music. It has its purpose, but mostly for the brain dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1749532:date=Jan 27 2010, 11:32 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Jan 27 2010, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For those concerned about black armor being a "hat" why not give everyone black armor, make it the default, and save the "green" for a later time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> haha? Seriously: Force Models
<!--quoteo(post=1749535:date=Jan 28 2010, 12:40 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 28 2010, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 is to gaming as Britney Spears is to music. It has its purpose, but mostly for the brain dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is such an astonishingly wrong opinion I don't even know where to begin. What has TF2 done to piss you off so much other than be popular and fun? And please, no catch phrases or hyperbole about how it's a gimmick fest for handicapped people because I'd honestly like to hear your arguments.
<!--quoteo(post=1749535:date=Jan 28 2010, 08:40 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 28 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 is to gaming as Britney Spears is to music. It has its purpose, but mostly for the brain dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have issues. Big, serious, ugly issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1749540:date=Jan 28 2010, 02:32 AM:name=Norton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Norton @ Jan 28 2010, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is such an astonishingly wrong opinion I don't even know where to begin. What has TF2 done to piss you off so much other than be popular and fun? And please, no catch phrases or hyperbole about how it's a gimmick fest for handicapped people because I'd honestly like to hear your arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is nor the thread or forum to discuss TF2's failings as a shameless pandering to the casual masses. If you're interested in the arguments and the problems facing PC gaming in general, read the following article: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a>. Otherwise let's keep the focus of this thread on making sure NS2 stays as far away as possible from the casual quagmire.
Comments
You'll not receive any favour with that asinine remark. See Pipi's reply.
<!--quoteo(post=1749108:date=Jan 25 2010, 12:21 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Jan 25 2010, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Black armor is happening, they can't just give back half of their earnings or not deliver it. I have a feeling the black armor thing isn't going to be a big deal, it will be a cool bonus but nothing more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, let it happen; but also let us choose to keep our game vanilla.
<!--quoteo(post=1749145:date=Jan 25 2010, 03:47 PM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Jan 25 2010, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im pretty sure NS2 wont have hats or unlocks. The devs have stated NUMEROUS times, the black armor will not effect game play at all and the skulks are already black by the way. If we payed the extra 20 then it shouldnt ever be disabled because of people who didnt pay the extra 20.
You strike me as the kind of person who is like, if i dont have it then no one else should. Your already complaining about a game that isnt even released or even finished and you already want to change things, i cannot imagine the amount of threads your going to throw around once it is out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have news for you - that is a hat. You pay for a trinket and others see it in game, that's the bane of unlocks, hats, ispecial armour whatever you want to call it. It affects gameplay by cheapening it with gimmicks. I'm not saying that you can't have your black armour - I just don't want to see it if I choose to play "vanilla". You're also naive in trying to gauge my motives - you thnk this is about 'have' and 'have-not'? Having black armour is easy; having it whorrify your game is not. You strike me as the type of person who craves this type of 'specialness' in order to validate oneself. Also, waiting around for release day to air concerns is the same type of ignorance that breeds MW2.
<!--quoteo(post=1749150:date=Jan 25 2010, 04:32 PM:name=Petco)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petco @ Jan 25 2010, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with Renegade about potentially gimmicks in NS2 but disagree with him about the Taser and in general, the gameplay changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I''m not saying that the changes will necessarily result in failure, just that the type of gameplay is not in the spirit of NS1. I'm curious to know though why you feel simplified and faster combat in reduced environments with purchasable upgrades will make for better gameplay? IMO we already tried that, it was called NS: Combat.
you are making a lot of assumptions there though - they never said the maps will be simple (simple to navigate due to landmarks) - just less messy, and perhaps the layout of the rooms them selves will be more complex, providing a lot more strategy.
The commander still has control of the overall strategy also, marines are able to then further customise themselves within the upgrade tech boundries.
Also you realise that the black armor is for people that have shown their support to the Dev's - its like a donation. Most people bought the SE because they felt the dev's deserved it for the quality of NS1 (a free game) and they want to encourage NS2 to be the best it can. Its not really about what colour the armor is. Kind of like a constie icon.
The game isn't released, everything here <b>is</b> going to be an assumption. You <i>assume</i> they mean "less messy", I assume they mean less depth. If they can slough off messiness while maintaining depth, all the better, but it's not an easy feat and thus is still a valid concern/assumption.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also you realise that the black armor is for people that have shown their support to the Dev's - its like a donation. Most people bought the SE because they felt the dev's deserved it for the quality of NS1 (a free game) and they want to encourage NS2 to be the best it can. Its not really about what colour the armor is. Kind of like a constie icon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, so there shouldn't be a problem making it a clientside option then. May as well make it easier for the competitive community now since the game claims it will support it so much.
These discussions would already be a lot more interesting if people bothered to think about them and actually speculate them instead of picking one opinion and blindly sticking with it. You'll rarely see people thinking how a problematic feature could be improved.
Black Armor is part of the game. It is vanilla. It also is in no way a hat, if it was a hat it would be on my head. Hats/armor do not affect gameplay. I have never heard anyone in tf2 go, I died because he had a hat.
Black armor will not affect or hinder gameplay at all the devs said. You cant hide better, you arnt harder to see, you cant go invisable. Black armor is to show the people who supported the game more than others. I didnt preorder for black armor though, i hardly play marines in ns1, i gave them the $40 for support and alpha. Its in no way a gimmick at all. Its kind of like doing community service and getting those free tickets to Disney.
People expecting the schedule to be reorganised so they can play an alpha.
People expecting time to be devoted to making a playable alpha immediately regardless of whether that is actually useful work.
Basically anything that suggests that the <i>developers</i> are somehow unfit to decide the best method to <i>develop</i> the game.
Too late to ###### about that now, when they are already <i>selling </i>it to you.
Well, there's nothing wrong posting the worries. Other people can offer speculative solutions to the presented issues it becomes a discussion. There's no denying that features like Power Grid, new movement system and multiple commanders have possible problems of their own. The thingy is aknowledging the potential downsides and finding at least some speculative answers to them.
Right, so there shouldn't be a problem making it a clientside option then. May as well make it easier for the competitive community now since the game claims it will support it so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oooh i completely agree with you :)
Ah make an alpha and get people complaining that it sucks and the game is taking too long or make the game and get people whining about the alpha.
Isn't it fun being a developer?
And yet that's the decision UWE made - to sell early access to the Alpha, regardless of your opinion that they can <b>either </b>do that <b>or </b>make the game.. What were you saying earlier about people second guessing the developers?
Black armor will not affect or hinder gameplay at all the devs said. You cant hide better, you arnt harder to see, you cant go invisable. Black armor is to show the people who supported the game more than others. I didnt preorder for black armor though, i hardly play marines in ns1, i gave them the $40 for support and alpha. Its in no way a gimmick at all. Its kind of like doing community service and getting those free tickets to Disney.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You go onto say black armour is not a hat, but then you group it with hats and say it doesn't affect gameplay. It seems you are misunderstanding the point and I don't see any value in repeating myself just for one person. Suffice to say the competitive community will require it to be disabled for matches, and historically they're a better judge for what passes for "vanilla".
Lol i do play competitivly. Just because you did or maybe even still manage to do clan matchs in ns1, doesnt mean you can go around saying "Guys since we are so competitive i think its only fair that we decide what is vanilla and what isnt"
Vanilla is what a game is when it is first out, all the original things before any expansion and more than just 1 or 2 new items with updates.
Since black armor is part of the game when its first out, it is vanilla.
Just because you didnt get it doesnt mean others cant enjoy it on servers.
Likewise opposite for those who did. Thus my solution is best - have it toggleable. No one's seeking to prevent enjoyment; what I'm imploring is that purchases be decoupled from in-game effects. Black armour draws direct parallel with TF2 hats (both are given to those in-game who pre-purchase), sharing all its gimmickry. One of the primary concerns in this thread is to avoid exactly that.
But if it isn't, so what? Doesn't affect gameplay at all, then it doesn't matter. So what if its gimmicky? It's a business. Business is full of gimmicks. And we all know you don't buy into gimmicks. But why do you have to care about whether other people buy into gimmicks or not? It's not like this particular gimmick is particularly hurtful on the eyes.
I think the real gimmick of the 40$ preorder is the alpha.
Black armor affects gameplay 0%.
Why is it such a problem for you? Its supposed to show that we supported the game a little extra during development and shouldnt be toggleable
Im sure if you got the $40 version you wouldnt be making such a big deal out of the black armor.
Early access to the alpha does not mean 'spend time making one as quickly as possible' it just means that some people get access to it before others.
So if it takes until next year to make the alpha as long as the preorder people get it a day before anyone else it still counts.
But if it isn't, so what? Doesn't affect gameplay at all, then it doesn't matter. So what if its gimmicky? It's a business. Business is full of gimmicks. And we all know you don't buy into gimmicks. But why do you have to care about whether other people buy into gimmicks or not? It's not like this particular gimmick is particularly hurtful on the eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I realize that. TF2 is also business, it's one of the best. There's not much TFC players did to convince Valve otherwise and likewise not much NS1 players can do if NS2 adopts such gimmickry. Purchased armour is just one of many foibles along this path. However this thread exists to express these fears and to hope NS2 does not fall in with the gimmick crowd. Am I willing to overlook a few gimmicks for NS2's success? Maybe, but it only takes a few sour grapes to spoil the wine.
<!--quoteo(post=1749417:date=Jan 27 2010, 07:40 AM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Jan 27 2010, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the real gimmick of the 40$ preorder is the alpha.
Black armor affects gameplay 0%.
Why is it such a problem for you? Its supposed to show that we supported the game a little extra during development and shouldnt be toggleable
Im sure if you got the $40 version you wouldnt be making such a big deal out of the black armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) alpha cannot be a gameplay gimmick, it isn't even situated within gameplay.
2) were you around for pink skulks, gammaramping, CAL consistency checks, and teams suiciding for all-black marines? If you were, you'd know that your claim of 0% is not only naive, but false.
3,4) personal bias / vanity
You've made your point clear: you have it, therefore you want others to see - it's an argument for personal gain, not gameplay. However you misjudge my motives - I am not so vain as to have my opinion changed simply by whether or not I own SE. Case-in-point: I wouldn't bat an eye if NS1 included a client-side option to toggle player icons.
@Cybber - you said "grievances with looks and features", I assume the outlook of a game and potential features to be among those.
@BadMouth - see the concept sketches, one of which you can't miss ;)
You're right, it hasn't been confirmed yet, but nor has it been disconfirmed. Assuming concept sketches exist for a reason, I'm inclined to believe the prognosis should they follow through on said concept will result in ultimate-lame-space-b00b-gimmickry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait are you implying that TF2 is a bad game? If so you're the very first person I've ever heard say so.
TF2 is to gaming as Britney Spears is to music. It has its purpose, but mostly for the brain dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1749532:date=Jan 27 2010, 11:32 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Jan 27 2010, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For those concerned about black armor being a "hat" why not give everyone black armor, make it the default, and save the "green" for a later time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha? Seriously: Force Models
This is such an astonishingly wrong opinion I don't even know where to begin. What has TF2 done to piss you off so much other than be popular and fun? And please, no catch phrases or hyperbole about how it's a gimmick fest for handicapped people because I'd honestly like to hear your arguments.
You have issues. Big, serious, ugly issues.
This is nor the thread or forum to discuss TF2's failings as a shameless pandering to the casual masses. If you're interested in the arguments and the problems facing PC gaming in general, read the following article: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a>. Otherwise let's keep the focus of this thread on making sure NS2 stays as far away as possible from the casual quagmire.