<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interesting. The Lerk does have a bit of a prehistoric feel, but I wasn't looking at those when designing the Lerk. I actually was referencing Andean Condors, which have a similar large bulge above their beaks.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh I see now :) I didn't even know about that species of bird, I can see the resemblance, good to know :) It does still have a prehistoric look but in its own unique way, still looks like an infestation creature.
Awesome, I love the new lerk model! Great video too, we can really see how great the graphics look! And for alt-fire for the spore: I like the idea that Price gave. Some kind of acid that gives damage to the marines that touch it. And maybe this acid could be used to open some welded doors/vents?
I love the lerk so much.. It was one of my favorite things to play from NS... I really like that you guys are trying to revamp some of the skills and features, but have to say I am pretty disappointed to see that bite has been replaced. I know many people dont like the flying skulk, but it was one of my favorite features about the lerk, was that you could do some range as well as some up close and personal stuff. It made it a really really good support unit with a bit of fight in it. Now it almost seems like it is purely a ranged unit.
Still, I am sure it will be fun to play, and I cant wait until we get our hands on an actual game to play.. It should be great.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm interpreting the actual words they have used to talk about this, both in the update and in the past. Take this for example: <a href="http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're using an old tweet where they specifically call it "short range" instead of the current "medium range" to further your point? Woah there.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm telling you that they probably will be about that short range, i.e. not much further than the Lerk's starting point in the video. Why else would they have an alt fire sniper mode specifically to be able to shoot from vents and shadowy corners? I think you missed basically everything they've said on the matter simply to focus on that one sentence that was a little poorly phrased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Lerk's starting point in the video is indeed "medium range" as I would define it. It is also more than enough range that the Lerk will be able to sit in strategically placed vents and hit marines. The necessity of placing these vents so that the marines have to be in close vicinity of them to perform their tasks to win the game means that the Lerk will have ample opportunities to camp in vents for most of the game if spikes do good damage from that range.
I've stated several times that EVEN WITHOUT that "poorly phrased" sentence, gameplay mechanics prohibit rapid fire spikes working in tandem with 3.x-esque Lerk acrobatics. Of course, if they've managed to completely bungle their entire information release on the Lerk, both the text and video, and instead mean that the spikes will only work in close combat, I have no beef.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I said burst damage(i.e. a high amount of damage in a short time), not burst fire. Rapid fire spikes could be called a burst damage weapon if they drain your energy quickly but do very high damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My apologies, you did in fact say "burst damage" and not "burst fire". However, that speaks more against your argument than for it. Without quoting the rest of your post, your problem is that you're not seeing the big picture, you're not following the narrative of my argument. I'll take it in steps:
1. A Lerk can sit in a vent where he has a readily available possibilities for retreat and is very hard to kill or he can fly out into the open, where he is more vulnerable. Right now, it looks very much like the Lerk will be able to sit in vents and use his primary spike attack at full power. As I have already shown, where the marines want to be there are also vents that can be used for this purpose, which by their nature must be placed within the range of the "medium range" spikes that we now seem to agree on.
2. A Lerk that flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to evade fire, or he will quickly die. If the Lerk gets beefed up HP/armor so he doesn't have to perform acrobatics, he will be nigh impossible to kill when sitting in vents. So, it follows logically from a balance point of view that a Lerk who flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to stay alive.
3. A Lerk that performs acrobatics can not keep a steady aim for more than a fraction of a second or he will be moving in a straight line long enough for the marines to dispatch him. Therefore his spike attack must do a significant amount of damage in that short of a time frame (the NS 3.x Lerk bite has this at a good balance).
4. An attack this powerful is only balanced because the Lerk cannot link these attacks without risking death (By comparison an NS 3.x Lerk who flies into a marine and tries to bite him 3 times in succesion without performing acrobatics between attacks won't live for long). A Lerk in the open, flying around is taking just that risk and the effectivity of his attacks is hampered because he has to constantly perform acrobatics to evade attacks while trying to find an opening to release his spikes.
5. Now, take the Lerk sitting in the vent. He isn't risking anything (even more so now that we can't pistol snipe), yet he has the same powerful attack. He will be dispatching marines with ease because he doesn't have to perform acrobatics while attacking, instead he can link his attacks and kill marines without much fear of dying. Making the energy drain of the attack so high that he can't link the attacks can solve the "overpowered Lerk in a vent" problem, but that will make the attack useless against structures and neuter the "flying around in the open Lerk" at the same time.
It follows that it is, in fact, impossible to balance the two. The spikes must either be short range with high power, which makes it useless for sitting in vents or attacking at the distance it does in video, or medium range with medium power, which makes it useless for 3.x style Lerking.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It allows them to hide in ambush wherever they like. In NS Lerks can't really ambush at all, because all the places they can sit are too far away and vents are checked even more often than ceilings. Not that I think Lerks will be big on ambushing anyway, it will probably primarily be used for sniping from tall ceilings..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a lot of Lerk ambushing in 3.x, actually. The best Lerks develop an almost superhuman ability to detect when a marine is distracted and knows exactly when to swoop in to take advantage. This is a skill learned by experience, unlike hiding in a corner which is something any player can do with some success. Ambushing from a static point without complete cover however, is suicidal. The only places you would have any use for the perching ability would be in places without complete cover.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And they've said many times that they're following the classic sequel philosophy: 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new. Calling something like the flamethrower - probably the most requested addition in NS - a useless gimmick is insane. I remember a bunch of people have asked for the ability to attach the Lerk to walls/ceilings before. They're taking away bite to address the problem that the Lerk didn't really have its own flavor in combat, it was just a Skulk that could fly. Now aliens actually have a class with a real ranged weapon. The alien commander was added to unify the res models and overall team structure of the teams for better balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't matter if the 1/3 same is completely unrelated to gameplay, the improved isn't actually an improvement and the new is detrimental to gameplay. Saying that popular request automatically makes an idea good is ridiculous and the argument that the 3.x Lerk is a flying Skulk is even more retarded. I never said anything about the alien commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1755908:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:30 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Feb 27 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a little confused here. It seems you're bemoaning the loss of bite but also contend that using bite in combat is basically a death sentence, against marines that can aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No wonder you're confused, you apparently haven't even read my posts properly. Using bite in combat isn't a death sentence at all in 3.x, provided you have the skill. They even nerfed the Lerk in 3.2 because it was too powerful in 3.1. I suggest you go watch some demos of competitive play (www.ensl.org hosts many) to get an understanding of how good Lerks play using both bite and spores to harass and take out the opposing team.
Piercing Spore - A spore cloud is encapsulated in a spike. This spike can pierce into a single exoskeleton removing its protection from the gas and centering the cloud on the player (because his suit is filled with the spores and it's leaking out the entry hole). This ability would use more energy with the cloud being much smaller in size. This attack would keep some of the spore cloud's damage mechanic in play after exoskeletons are rampant and force the spored marine to keep some distance from marines not in exoskeletons (potentially separating someone from the pack which caters to the alien's combat style). If the spike hits a non-armored marine or wall it will still produce the spore cloud and will move with the marine (think PigPen from the comic Peanuts).
- This ability is a natural combination of the previous abilities and can be implemented graphically with a different colored spike (or one that's transparent with a gel like substance inside, you get the idea). - Perhaps a teammate could weld the affected exoskeletons armor to prevent the cloud from exiting (while leaving the marine with it to wallow in it alone).
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited February 2010
seeing as you guys don't want another cloud ability - then that means you need one that will somehow alter or manipulate the current spores -
so how about ALT SPORE <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->can push and pull on the spore cloud to make it move :)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
E.G. hold down alt fire button, and then guide the spore cloud with the crosshair (just hope the lerk has good breathing ability to do this haha)
Looks great! I remember a while ago, all the graphics and tech companies (nvidia, sony ect) were showing off subsurface scattering (bright lights behind a model cast a shadow of internal bones and veins). It seems like a perfect place to implement something like this would be the wings of the Lerk. Does the engine support subsurface scattering?
<!--quoteo(post=1755942:date=Feb 28 2010, 04:23 AM:name=stickyboot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stickyboot @ Feb 28 2010, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like a perfect place to implement something like this would be the wings of the Lerk. Does the engine support subsurface scattering?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. No word on that specifically, but they said they plan to make the wings translucent.
<!--quoteo(post=1755922:date=Feb 27 2010, 06:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 27 2010, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Lerk's starting point in the video is indeed "medium range" as I would define it. It is also more than enough range that the Lerk will be able to sit in strategically placed vents and hit marines. The necessity of placing these vents so that the marines have to be in close vicinity of them to perform their tasks to win the game means that the Lerk will have ample opportunities to camp in vents for most of the game if spikes do good damage from that range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think dive bombing marines is dangerous, sitting stationary in a vent and shooting marines at that range is suicide. Lerks can't move backwards quickly, if the marines are alert at all the Lerk would get rocked. Even if he's beefier than before he'll still get sent back to heal the moment he shows his face. Worst case scenario they can give the spikes some damage falloff, TF2-style.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've stated several times that EVEN WITHOUT that "poorly phrased" sentence, gameplay mechanics prohibit rapid fire spikes working in tandem with 3.x-esque Lerk acrobatics. Of course, if they've managed to completely bungle their entire information release on the Lerk, both the text and video, and instead mean that the spikes will only work in close combat, I have no beef.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously you'll have to fly in a straight line at a marine while shooting him with spikes. But if they do enough damage you won't have to do that for long and can immediately take evasive maneuevers afterwards. Clearly Lerks aren't going to be front-line fighters, they'll need teammates to help draw attention away from them(just like in NS).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My apologies, you did in fact say "burst damage" and not "burst fire". However, that speaks more against your argument than for it. Without quoting the rest of your post, your problem is that you're not seeing the big picture, you're not following the narrative of my argument. I'll take it in steps:
1. A Lerk can sit in a vent where he has a readily available possibilities for retreat and is very hard to kill or he can fly out into the open, where he is more vulnerable. Right now, it looks very much like the Lerk will be able to sit in vents and use his primary spike attack at full power. As I have already shown, where the marines want to be there are also vents that can be used for this purpose, which by their nature must be placed within the range of the "medium range" spikes that we now seem to agree on.
2. A Lerk that flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to evade fire, or he will quickly die. If the Lerk gets beefed up HP/armor so he doesn't have to perform acrobatics, he will be nigh impossible to kill when sitting in vents. So, it follows logically from a balance point of view that a Lerk who flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to stay alive.
3. A Lerk that performs acrobatics can not keep a steady aim for more than a fraction of a second or he will be moving in a straight line long enough for the marines to dispatch him. Therefore his spike attack must do a significant amount of damage in that short of a time frame (the NS 3.x Lerk bite has this at a good balance).
4. An attack this powerful is only balanced because the Lerk cannot link these attacks without risking death (By comparison an NS 3.x Lerk who flies into a marine and tries to bite him 3 times in succesion without performing acrobatics between attacks won't live for long). A Lerk in the open, flying around is taking just that risk and the effectivity of his attacks is hampered because he has to constantly perform acrobatics to evade attacks while trying to find an opening to release his spikes.
5. Now, take the Lerk sitting in the vent. He isn't risking anything (even more so now that we can't pistol snipe), yet he has the same powerful attack. He will be dispatching marines with ease because he doesn't have to perform acrobatics while attacking, instead he can link his attacks and kill marines without much fear of dying. Making the energy drain of the attack so high that he can't link the attacks can solve the "overpowered Lerk in a vent" problem, but that will make the attack useless against structures and neuter the "flying around in the open Lerk" at the same time.
It follows that it is, in fact, impossible to balance the two. The spikes must either be short range with high power, which makes it useless for sitting in vents or attacking at the distance it does in video, or medium range with medium power, which makes it useless for 3.x style Lerking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your entire argument is based on the assumption that UWE is incapable of making the spikes ineffective from vents. This problem is easily fixed though, like with damage falloff, and with that there's no reason spikes can't be strong enough to replicate that sort of gameplay(albeit with a slightly different style of attack). Lerks have always been about picking off stragglers and distracted marines anyway, they're hardly a front line combat class and I doubt that's going to change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a lot of Lerk ambushing in 3.x, actually. The best Lerks develop an almost superhuman ability to detect when a marine is distracted and knows exactly when to swoop in to take advantage. This is a skill learned by experience, unlike hiding in a corner which is something any player can do with some success. Ambushing from a static point without complete cover however, is suicidal. The only places you would have any use for the perching ability would be in places without complete cover.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well like I said, the main use for it will probably be to use the spike sniping to shoot at marines from a shadowy spot on the ceiling. Depends on how much of a directional giveaway there is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter if the 1/3 same is completely unrelated to gameplay, the improved isn't actually an improvement and the new is detrimental to gameplay. Saying that popular request automatically makes an idea good is ridiculous and the argument that the 3.x Lerk is a flying Skulk is even more retarded. I never said anything about the alien commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea on what basis you assume that the flamethrower won't contribute to gameplay, and your thinking that the Lerk change is detrimental is pure opinion. I think Lerks are far more interesting as a pure ranged class than a winged skulk with spores instead of parasite. And yes that basically is what they are, they're far more similar to eachother than any of the other alien classes are. The aliens lack a proper ranged class in 3.0, this adds some variety which makes things more fun. It can and will be balanced one way or another. I don't know what your definition of an improvement to gameplay is, but UWE has a much larger demographic to think about than just the hardcore competitive NS players, even just on this site.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No wonder you're confused, you apparently haven't even read my posts properly. Using bite in combat isn't a death sentence at all in 3.x, provided you have the skill. They even nerfed the Lerk in 3.2 because it was too powerful in 3.1. I suggest you go watch some demos of competitive play (www.ensl.org hosts many) to get an understanding of how good Lerks play using both bite and spores to harass and take out the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Assuming equal skill between the Lerk and marines, it only works when they are distracted. If they're focused enough to instagib you during a single spike dive, you wouldn't have done much better with biting. Pubstomping is different of course but if anything that's one more reason to change it, the Lerk really shouldn't ever be a lone killing machine.
Lerk is going in some interesting directions, looking forward to getting my hands on this. And to fanatic, your arguments basically stem from bite being taken away and replaced with a mid range spike weapon, correct? If this was tweaked, well for arguments sake during something like alpha/beta, and became a short range weapon that required 'acrobatics' would you still be all up in arms?
Had to bite my tongue on competitive players talking about game design there.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1755959:date=Feb 28 2010, 04:26 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Feb 28 2010, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to fanatic, your arguments basically stem from bite being taken away and replaced with a mid range spike weapon, correct? If this was tweaked, well for arguments sake during something like alpha/beta, and became a short range weapon that required 'acrobatics' would you still be all up in arms?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I've stated many times, no I wouldn't. A short range "shotgun style" attack would be great.
<!--quoteo(post=1755959:date=Feb 28 2010, 04:26 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Feb 28 2010, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Had to bite my tongue on competitive players talking about game design there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because the players with the most gameplay experience shouldn't voice their opinion. It makes sense!
To Zek: It seems like you only have a rudimentary understanding of how the 3.x Lerks works and you're making every possible effort to twist my points in the direction you want. I see no point in continuing this. I've put my opinion out there, so I'm leaving it at that. I'm not saying that I won't post anything here, but I think our quote war has outlived its usefulness.
I agree on that point, thats one of the reasons we have forums. But I don't think its worth saying you've lost all faith in the development and blogging calling out/shaming an Australian player for not agreeing with your opinion which at this point thats all your argument is.
Are you arguing that the new spikes are bad because they will inevitably be unbalanced, or because they'll be a boring long-range spam weapon like 2.0 spikes? We know for a fact that they will be a medium/short-range weapon so the latter point is out. From what I can tell you are claiming that there's no way they'll be able to kill quickly because it would never be balanced, but I already mentioned a solution that would definitely fix this: a damage falloff range that makes the damage relatively light at mid range and ramps up to very fast damage approaching bite range.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1755966:date=Feb 28 2010, 05:10 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Feb 28 2010, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree on that point, thats one of the reasons we have forums. But I don't think its worth saying you've lost all faith in the development and blogging calling out/shaming an Australian player for not agreeing with your opinion which at this point thats all your argument is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you didn't interpret everything I write in the worst possible meaning, you would have much less reason to criticise me. As I wrote in the news post (and please don't call the 9L website a blog, although I will grudgingly agree that it's taken on a bit of a blogish appearance lately) it was a bit harsh and only applied to my feelings at the exact point in which I wrote the comment on the ENSL website. At that time, I was a bit affected by the, for me personally, continually disappointing news updates since the chat we had with Flayra in July. I haven't actually lost all faith in the development, or I wouldn't be posting here. Of course, as should be readily apparent, I am both disappointed and worried about the general direction the development seems to be taking NS2, but I'm still very much interested in playing the final product.
Bear in mind that much of the reason why competitive players make so much noise and have such strong opinions, is because we have an unusally strong attachment to the game. Generally (this of course does not apply to everyone) we've played this game more than anyone else, dedicating ourselves to perfecting our performance in game. In terms of hours played, many of us put in as much practice as top athletes in sports, yet we get nowhere near the same recognition as said athletes get when they make statements. Of course comparing amateur gamers to professional athletes is a stretch, but I think the point is relevant. Personally, and I wouldn't be surprised if this applies to many other competitive players, I have everything riding on NS2 being the game I'm desperately hoping it will be. If it doesn't, I very much doubt I'll switch my interest to a different game, simply because I haven't found one that captures my interest like NS. I'll probably quit multiplayer gaming for good if NS2 doesn't touch the same buttons NS does. If we/I seem a little rude or arrogant, it isn't because I want to be or am, but it's because I love this game so much and I don't want to see it fail. Unfortunately I don't have the time to post continually on these forums. Instead I'm forced to these short bursts of activity when something strikes me as very problematic.
My stab at MrC wasn't at all intended to be a "shaming", but instead a friendly jab at the Australian community (this isn't the first time they claim the Lerk is a flying skulk, much to my chagrin). If it came across as such, I apologize. Hopefully not everyone will interpret it the same way you did, as I personally don't believe I worded it to be a harsh criticism.
<!--quoteo(post=1755970:date=Feb 28 2010, 05:23 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 28 2010, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you arguing that the new spikes are bad because they will inevitably be unbalanced, or because they'll be a boring long-range spam weapon like 2.0 spikes? We know for a fact that they will be a medium/short-range weapon so the latter point is out. From what I can tell you are claiming that there's no way they'll be able to kill quickly because it would never be balanced, but I already mentioned a solution that would definitely fix this: a damage falloff range that makes the damage relatively light at mid range and ramps up to very fast damage approaching bite range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm worried about both, actually. Boring spam doesn't have to be long range either, it can still be boring if it's medium range. Anything that promotes static gameplay is a no-no in my book. Damage falloff could alleviate the problem, but it doesn't seem like they're thinking along those lines. It would certainly make their "Lerk like" behaviour -- even if somehow it's only related to structure killing -- impossible.
Hmm... an alt fire for spore huh? Why not make it something that is dependent on the lerk's Roost? I think it would diversify his functions, as well as give incentive for the players to be smart and set up roosting ambushes. Either give an option to drop a big-ass loogie on the marines (that may or may not be aoe), or find another function that a lerk could only do while upside down.
Was thinking Batman for a bit where the lerk might lash out with a tongue and grab a marine's gun for 2-3 seconds (making him unable to aim or mouselook for the short duration). However, this would take control away from the marine, and no one ever said lerks have a long tongue, I guess.
Firstly MrC is far from a prominent competitive player and fana you really need to consider leaving your basement so that you may be exposed to the fact that ns is dead and natural selection 2 is not going to be a very good game. You should consider spending your time on something more constructive than writing five page essays on natural selection on a daily basis. Good luck in life from your Australian Brothers!
Well I was a competitve player and I never liked that the Lerk lost its Spikes.
Yes I was around when it was Bite/Spike and Spike/Spore, so I have seen the Lerk in all variations.
Spike + Spore was the strongest once you get to the mid-game(LOL Starcraft refrence talk, 2nd Hive then) against tech'd Marines or early Marine JP/HA.
Spikes for HAs and Spores for JPs(Fade Blink Swipe the weakend 1 shot JPs) with the occasional Spike spam at the JPs.
Now the Lerk is practically useless against HAs unless your team is Onos rushing, because then Umbra is useful. However the Lerk can not basically do any direct damage(substantial that is) by itself without risking its own death into Shotgun range territory.
HMGs just make current Lerks laughable. GLs? Well they are really only used in 16v16 Hive pushes where the Nade Spam is just extra goodies.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Yes to Spikes!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <b><u>This is the one thing that had to happen for NS2 in order to take this class back into the role it was intended for.</u></b> Which is mid/short range harass.
Conceptually I said I prefer the idea of a ranged lerk over a melee centric one. 3.0 lerk fits in 3.0, and I would much prefer an evolved game instead of NS with better graphics. I agree that a 'twitch-style' lerk like that of the 3.0 version is more fun, but in reality the lerk's strength came from it's support ability and not the 3 minutes that it dominates the battlefield during early game.
Personally, I don't get emotionally invested in my opinion, so I really don't care if you question my credibility (or lack-there-of), certainly not about a game I have stopped playing (but no less enjoyed a lot).
<!--quoteo(post=1755908:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:30 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Feb 27 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a little confused here. It seems you're bemoaning the loss of bite but also contend that using bite in combat is basically a death sentence, against marines that can aim. I'm sure you've played lerk in competitive, or at least seen it first hand, where you drew this conclusion, which I can only agree with. Our lerks weren't much more than spore machines, following front line marines around to keep them bathed in gas. I mean you can't really do much more than that without risking an early death, and having the lerk alive and sporing is 10x more vital than getting any single kill. The simplest lerk counter after all is a 10res shotgun, 1/3rd the investment cost but only effective up close.
So what part of bite are you missing exactly? The part where you sit behind a res node for 5 minutes? Or the part where you own clueless pubnubs half of which don't even realize where you're coming from? I guarantee the latter will still be an important part of the NS competitive experience no matter what changes. If it's the former you're missing, well, um, maybe you should get a job in data entry or something. I mean, lerks basically were used as vent camping distance shooters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AGREE 100% with you. out of all the people that are playing now ive seen only 3-5 out of 100 maybe that risk to go out in the open and bite,and mostly its the same people that allways go lerk nobody else dose it, and if they do they will be hiding and gasing only, the lerk has become more of a class for pros only. I think the new lerk will let allmost everyone play as it and it wont be a pros only class anymore, and that is a good thing a think.
<!--quoteo(post=1756002:date=Feb 28 2010, 10:08 AM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Feb 28 2010, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AGREE 100% with you. out of all the people that are playing now ive seen only 3-5 out of 100 maybe that risk to go out in the open and bite,and mostly its the same people that allways go lerk nobody else dose it, and if they do they will be hiding and gasing only, the lerk has become more of a class for pros only. I think the new lerk will let allmost everyone play as it and it wont be a pros only class anymore, and that is a good thing a think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, I'd <b>much</b> rather make the learning curve as encouraging as possible and try to bring up the level of gameplay than to bring down the level of gameplay so that everyone can handle it almost instantly.
I certainly see where Fana(tic) is going with his argumentation and I think based on what UWE has shown us, it's an agreeable concern. Whether it's UWE failing to showcase the exiting features to more hardcore crowd or just the sheer lack of interesting depth/skill features, I don't know. The roost certainly feels like a feature I wouldn't use in a game that's even remotely based on dodging fire and where lerk costs more than the time it takes for alien to respawn. No matter where you're sticking, you're a high priority target and a sitting duck simultaneously.
Maybe we should just encourage the level designers to have double layered ceiling, i.e. one level of details, like struts and stuff and then the actual ceiling, then at least roosting lerks might have a little cover (using alt fire (snipe) from a high up ceiling in the shadows could still be pretty effective).
Personally whilst biting marines (esp. with primal scream) was fun, I think spike is much more consistent with how the average reasonable player uses them (I'm using me as the template here, so quite good at video games in general but not a NS 'pro') which is hang around in vents and generally out of los spamming spore and umbra (wonder if that's gonna be in for lerk in NS2) and only going in if there's a lone marine left who I know has low hp. Anything else was just suicide.
Still I'd have liked the new spike to have a little lower rate of fire, maybe the snipe spike ability will.
If lerks could attach themselves to surfaces like skulks (minus the on-foot/attached agility) I think they'd be a lot more desirable and interesting to play against.
<!--quoteo(post=1755438:date=Feb 26 2010, 03:09 PM:name=GaidinTS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GaidinTS @ Feb 26 2010, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For a secondary fire for spore, how about he vents out a more potent cloud of spore from his sides that just envelopes his current position. Maybe it'll do damage to structures or heavy armor (or the ns2 equivalent).
I could see lerks flying in to bases, sporing, and flying out of the generated cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that's the best suggestion. It gives increased effect (damage to or impaired vision and slowed movement for the marines, or perhaps umbra for the aliens), but also increased risk for the lerk. It gives the marines a way to counter. Instead of just getting irritatingly spored from some random, typically uncreachable location they actually have a chance to down the lerk before it gets to close and releases the cloud.
A thought that just popped up in my head is to allow the lerk to pick up eggs (alien start locations) and drop them somewhere else to combat spawn camping or to (temporarily) move some of the start locations closer to the fighting. That could quickly get a bit tedious tough, shuttling eggs an entire game...
In NS1 the lerk had a nice gradient transition from early game "micro dump" for skill which can have a good outcome based on individual skill and twitch into mid-late game spore/umbra/primal support machine as the tradeoff between the risk of flying in and taking a bite vs using hive2 abilities+more MCs changed. I hope that eventually the NS2 lerk is the same.
Personally I'd like to see some interaction between spore & DI... And in general I'd like to see/hear of stuff happening between each alien and the DI...
Perhaps the spore projectile spreads out over a larger area when it hits DI/etc. Little things like that could help each player feel like the DI matters to them personally, and provides an incentive to help spread the DI across defensive positions.
Comments
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh I see now :) I didn't even know about that species of bird, I can see the resemblance, good to know :) It does still have a prehistoric look but in its own unique way, still looks like an infestation creature.
And for alt-fire for the spore:
I like the idea that Price gave. Some kind of acid that gives damage to the marines that touch it. And maybe this acid could be used to open some welded doors/vents?
I really like that you guys are trying to revamp some of the skills and features, but have to say I am pretty disappointed to see that bite has been replaced. I know many people dont like the flying skulk, but it was one of my favorite features about the lerk, was that you could do some range as well as some up close and personal stuff. It made it a really really good support unit with a bit of fight in it. Now it almost seems like it is purely a ranged unit.
Still, I am sure it will be fun to play, and I cant wait until we get our hands on an actual game to play.. It should be great.
<a href="http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/NS2/status/3269530530</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're using an old tweet where they specifically call it "short range" instead of the current "medium range" to further your point? Woah there.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm telling you that they probably will be about that short range, i.e. not much further than the Lerk's starting point in the video. Why else would they have an alt fire sniper mode specifically to be able to shoot from vents and shadowy corners? I think you missed basically everything they've said on the matter simply to focus on that one sentence that was a little poorly phrased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Lerk's starting point in the video is indeed "medium range" as I would define it. It is also more than enough range that the Lerk will be able to sit in strategically placed vents and hit marines. The necessity of placing these vents so that the marines have to be in close vicinity of them to perform their tasks to win the game means that the Lerk will have ample opportunities to camp in vents for most of the game if spikes do good damage from that range.
I've stated several times that EVEN WITHOUT that "poorly phrased" sentence, gameplay mechanics prohibit rapid fire spikes working in tandem with 3.x-esque Lerk acrobatics. Of course, if they've managed to completely bungle their entire information release on the Lerk, both the text and video, and instead mean that the spikes will only work in close combat, I have no beef.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I said burst damage(i.e. a high amount of damage in a short time), not burst fire. Rapid fire spikes could be called a burst damage weapon if they drain your energy quickly but do very high damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My apologies, you did in fact say "burst damage" and not "burst fire". However, that speaks more against your argument than for it. Without quoting the rest of your post, your problem is that you're not seeing the big picture, you're not following the narrative of my argument. I'll take it in steps:
1. A Lerk can sit in a vent where he has a readily available possibilities for retreat and is very hard to kill or he can fly out into the open, where he is more vulnerable. Right now, it looks very much like the Lerk will be able to sit in vents and use his primary spike attack at full power. As I have already shown, where the marines want to be there are also vents that can be used for this purpose, which by their nature must be placed within the range of the "medium range" spikes that we now seem to agree on.
2. A Lerk that flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to evade fire, or he will quickly die. If the Lerk gets beefed up HP/armor so he doesn't have to perform acrobatics, he will be nigh impossible to kill when sitting in vents. So, it follows logically from a balance point of view that a Lerk who flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to stay alive.
3. A Lerk that performs acrobatics can not keep a steady aim for more than a fraction of a second or he will be moving in a straight line long enough for the marines to dispatch him. Therefore his spike attack must do a significant amount of damage in that short of a time frame (the NS 3.x Lerk bite has this at a good balance).
4. An attack this powerful is only balanced because the Lerk cannot link these attacks without risking death (By comparison an NS 3.x Lerk who flies into a marine and tries to bite him 3 times in succesion without performing acrobatics between attacks won't live for long). A Lerk in the open, flying around is taking just that risk and the effectivity of his attacks is hampered because he has to constantly perform acrobatics to evade attacks while trying to find an opening to release his spikes.
5. Now, take the Lerk sitting in the vent. He isn't risking anything (even more so now that we can't pistol snipe), yet he has the same powerful attack. He will be dispatching marines with ease because he doesn't have to perform acrobatics while attacking, instead he can link his attacks and kill marines without much fear of dying. Making the energy drain of the attack so high that he can't link the attacks can solve the "overpowered Lerk in a vent" problem, but that will make the attack useless against structures and neuter the "flying around in the open Lerk" at the same time.
It follows that it is, in fact, impossible to balance the two. The spikes must either be short range with high power, which makes it useless for sitting in vents or attacking at the distance it does in video, or medium range with medium power, which makes it useless for 3.x style Lerking.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It allows them to hide in ambush wherever they like. In NS Lerks can't really ambush at all, because all the places they can sit are too far away and vents are checked even more often than ceilings. Not that I think Lerks will be big on ambushing anyway, it will probably primarily be used for sniping from tall ceilings..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a lot of Lerk ambushing in 3.x, actually. The best Lerks develop an almost superhuman ability to detect when a marine is distracted and knows exactly when to swoop in to take advantage. This is a skill learned by experience, unlike hiding in a corner which is something any player can do with some success. Ambushing from a static point without complete cover however, is suicidal. The only places you would have any use for the perching ability would be in places without complete cover.
<!--quoteo(post=1755901:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And they've said many times that they're following the classic sequel philosophy: 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new. Calling something like the flamethrower - probably the most requested addition in NS - a useless gimmick is insane. I remember a bunch of people have asked for the ability to attach the Lerk to walls/ceilings before. They're taking away bite to address the problem that the Lerk didn't really have its own flavor in combat, it was just a Skulk that could fly. Now aliens actually have a class with a real ranged weapon. The alien commander was added to unify the res models and overall team structure of the teams for better balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter if the 1/3 same is completely unrelated to gameplay, the improved isn't actually an improvement and the new is detrimental to gameplay. Saying that popular request automatically makes an idea good is ridiculous and the argument that the 3.x Lerk is a flying Skulk is even more retarded. I never said anything about the alien commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1755908:date=Feb 27 2010, 11:30 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Feb 27 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a little confused here. It seems you're bemoaning the loss of bite but also contend that using bite in combat is basically a death sentence, against marines that can aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No wonder you're confused, you apparently haven't even read my posts properly. Using bite in combat isn't a death sentence at all in 3.x, provided you have the skill. They even nerfed the Lerk in 3.2 because it was too powerful in 3.1. I suggest you go watch some demos of competitive play (www.ensl.org hosts many) to get an understanding of how good Lerks play using both bite and spores to harass and take out the opposing team.
Piercing Spore - A spore cloud is encapsulated in a spike. This spike can pierce into a single exoskeleton removing its protection from the gas and centering the cloud on the player (because his suit is filled with the spores and it's leaking out the entry hole). This ability would use more energy with the cloud being much smaller in size. This attack would keep some of the spore cloud's damage mechanic in play after exoskeletons are rampant and force the spored marine to keep some distance from marines not in exoskeletons (potentially separating someone from the pack which caters to the alien's combat style). If the spike hits a non-armored marine or wall it will still produce the spore cloud and will move with the marine (think PigPen from the comic Peanuts).
- This ability is a natural combination of the previous abilities and can be implemented graphically with a different colored spike (or one that's transparent with a gel like substance inside, you get the idea).
- Perhaps a teammate could weld the affected exoskeletons armor to prevent the cloud from exiting (while leaving the marine with it to wallow in it alone).
so how about ALT SPORE <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->can push and pull on the spore cloud to make it move :)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
E.G. hold down alt fire button, and then guide the spore cloud with the crosshair (just hope the lerk has good breathing ability to do this haha)
Indeed. No word on that specifically, but they said they plan to make the wings translucent.
If you think dive bombing marines is dangerous, sitting stationary in a vent and shooting marines at that range is suicide. Lerks can't move backwards quickly, if the marines are alert at all the Lerk would get rocked. Even if he's beefier than before he'll still get sent back to heal the moment he shows his face. Worst case scenario they can give the spikes some damage falloff, TF2-style.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've stated several times that EVEN WITHOUT that "poorly phrased" sentence, gameplay mechanics prohibit rapid fire spikes working in tandem with 3.x-esque Lerk acrobatics. Of course, if they've managed to completely bungle their entire information release on the Lerk, both the text and video, and instead mean that the spikes will only work in close combat, I have no beef.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you'll have to fly in a straight line at a marine while shooting him with spikes. But if they do enough damage you won't have to do that for long and can immediately take evasive maneuevers afterwards. Clearly Lerks aren't going to be front-line fighters, they'll need teammates to help draw attention away from them(just like in NS).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My apologies, you did in fact say "burst damage" and not "burst fire". However, that speaks more against your argument than for it. Without quoting the rest of your post, your problem is that you're not seeing the big picture, you're not following the narrative of my argument. I'll take it in steps:
1. A Lerk can sit in a vent where he has a readily available possibilities for retreat and is very hard to kill or he can fly out into the open, where he is more vulnerable. Right now, it looks very much like the Lerk will be able to sit in vents and use his primary spike attack at full power. As I have already shown, where the marines want to be there are also vents that can be used for this purpose, which by their nature must be placed within the range of the "medium range" spikes that we now seem to agree on.
2. A Lerk that flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to evade fire, or he will quickly die. If the Lerk gets beefed up HP/armor so he doesn't have to perform acrobatics, he will be nigh impossible to kill when sitting in vents. So, it follows logically from a balance point of view that a Lerk who flies in the open, must perform acrobatics to stay alive.
3. A Lerk that performs acrobatics can not keep a steady aim for more than a fraction of a second or he will be moving in a straight line long enough for the marines to dispatch him. Therefore his spike attack must do a significant amount of damage in that short of a time frame (the NS 3.x Lerk bite has this at a good balance).
4. An attack this powerful is only balanced because the Lerk cannot link these attacks without risking death (By comparison an NS 3.x Lerk who flies into a marine and tries to bite him 3 times in succesion without performing acrobatics between attacks won't live for long). A Lerk in the open, flying around is taking just that risk and the effectivity of his attacks is hampered because he has to constantly perform acrobatics to evade attacks while trying to find an opening to release his spikes.
5. Now, take the Lerk sitting in the vent. He isn't risking anything (even more so now that we can't pistol snipe), yet he has the same powerful attack. He will be dispatching marines with ease because he doesn't have to perform acrobatics while attacking, instead he can link his attacks and kill marines without much fear of dying. Making the energy drain of the attack so high that he can't link the attacks can solve the "overpowered Lerk in a vent" problem, but that will make the attack useless against structures and neuter the "flying around in the open Lerk" at the same time.
It follows that it is, in fact, impossible to balance the two. The spikes must either be short range with high power, which makes it useless for sitting in vents or attacking at the distance it does in video, or medium range with medium power, which makes it useless for 3.x style Lerking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your entire argument is based on the assumption that UWE is incapable of making the spikes ineffective from vents. This problem is easily fixed though, like with damage falloff, and with that there's no reason spikes can't be strong enough to replicate that sort of gameplay(albeit with a slightly different style of attack). Lerks have always been about picking off stragglers and distracted marines anyway, they're hardly a front line combat class and I doubt that's going to change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a lot of Lerk ambushing in 3.x, actually. The best Lerks develop an almost superhuman ability to detect when a marine is distracted and knows exactly when to swoop in to take advantage. This is a skill learned by experience, unlike hiding in a corner which is something any player can do with some success. Ambushing from a static point without complete cover however, is suicidal. The only places you would have any use for the perching ability would be in places without complete cover.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well like I said, the main use for it will probably be to use the spike sniping to shoot at marines from a shadowy spot on the ceiling. Depends on how much of a directional giveaway there is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter if the 1/3 same is completely unrelated to gameplay, the improved isn't actually an improvement and the new is detrimental to gameplay. Saying that popular request automatically makes an idea good is ridiculous and the argument that the 3.x Lerk is a flying Skulk is even more retarded. I never said anything about the alien commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea on what basis you assume that the flamethrower won't contribute to gameplay, and your thinking that the Lerk change is detrimental is pure opinion. I think Lerks are far more interesting as a pure ranged class than a winged skulk with spores instead of parasite. And yes that basically is what they are, they're far more similar to eachother than any of the other alien classes are. The aliens lack a proper ranged class in 3.0, this adds some variety which makes things more fun. It can and will be balanced one way or another. I don't know what your definition of an improvement to gameplay is, but UWE has a much larger demographic to think about than just the hardcore competitive NS players, even just on this site.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No wonder you're confused, you apparently haven't even read my posts properly. Using bite in combat isn't a death sentence at all in 3.x, provided you have the skill. They even nerfed the Lerk in 3.2 because it was too powerful in 3.1. I suggest you go watch some demos of competitive play (www.ensl.org hosts many) to get an understanding of how good Lerks play using both bite and spores to harass and take out the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming equal skill between the Lerk and marines, it only works when they are distracted. If they're focused enough to instagib you during a single spike dive, you wouldn't have done much better with biting. Pubstomping is different of course but if anything that's one more reason to change it, the Lerk really shouldn't ever be a lone killing machine.
Had to bite my tongue on competitive players talking about game design there.
As I've stated many times, no I wouldn't. A short range "shotgun style" attack would be great.
<!--quoteo(post=1755959:date=Feb 28 2010, 04:26 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Feb 28 2010, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Had to bite my tongue on competitive players talking about game design there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because the players with the most gameplay experience shouldn't voice their opinion. It makes sense!
To Zek: It seems like you only have a rudimentary understanding of how the 3.x Lerks works and you're making every possible effort to twist my points in the direction you want. I see no point in continuing this. I've put my opinion out there, so I'm leaving it at that. I'm not saying that I won't post anything here, but I think our quote war has outlived its usefulness.
If you didn't interpret everything I write in the worst possible meaning, you would have much less reason to criticise me. As I wrote in the news post (and please don't call the 9L website a blog, although I will grudgingly agree that it's taken on a bit of a blogish appearance lately) it was a bit harsh and only applied to my feelings at the exact point in which I wrote the comment on the ENSL website. At that time, I was a bit affected by the, for me personally, continually disappointing news updates since the chat we had with Flayra in July. I haven't actually lost all faith in the development, or I wouldn't be posting here. Of course, as should be readily apparent, I am both disappointed and worried about the general direction the development seems to be taking NS2, but I'm still very much interested in playing the final product.
Bear in mind that much of the reason why competitive players make so much noise and have such strong opinions, is because we have an unusally strong attachment to the game. Generally (this of course does not apply to everyone) we've played this game more than anyone else, dedicating ourselves to perfecting our performance in game. In terms of hours played, many of us put in as much practice as top athletes in sports, yet we get nowhere near the same recognition as said athletes get when they make statements. Of course comparing amateur gamers to professional athletes is a stretch, but I think the point is relevant. Personally, and I wouldn't be surprised if this applies to many other competitive players, I have everything riding on NS2 being the game I'm desperately hoping it will be. If it doesn't, I very much doubt I'll switch my interest to a different game, simply because I haven't found one that captures my interest like NS. I'll probably quit multiplayer gaming for good if NS2 doesn't touch the same buttons NS does. If we/I seem a little rude or arrogant, it isn't because I want to be or am, but it's because I love this game so much and I don't want to see it fail. Unfortunately I don't have the time to post continually on these forums. Instead I'm forced to these short bursts of activity when something strikes me as very problematic.
My stab at MrC wasn't at all intended to be a "shaming", but instead a friendly jab at the Australian community (this isn't the first time they claim the Lerk is a flying skulk, much to my chagrin). If it came across as such, I apologize. Hopefully not everyone will interpret it the same way you did, as I personally don't believe I worded it to be a harsh criticism.
<!--quoteo(post=1755970:date=Feb 28 2010, 05:23 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 28 2010, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1755970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you arguing that the new spikes are bad because they will inevitably be unbalanced, or because they'll be a boring long-range spam weapon like 2.0 spikes? We know for a fact that they will be a medium/short-range weapon so the latter point is out. From what I can tell you are claiming that there's no way they'll be able to kill quickly because it would never be balanced, but I already mentioned a solution that would definitely fix this: a damage falloff range that makes the damage relatively light at mid range and ramps up to very fast damage approaching bite range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm worried about both, actually. Boring spam doesn't have to be long range either, it can still be boring if it's medium range. Anything that promotes static gameplay is a no-no in my book. Damage falloff could alleviate the problem, but it doesn't seem like they're thinking along those lines. It would certainly make their "Lerk like" behaviour -- even if somehow it's only related to structure killing -- impossible.
Either give an option to drop a big-ass loogie on the marines (that may or may not be aoe), or find another function that a lerk could only do while upside down.
Was thinking Batman for a bit where the lerk might lash out with a tongue and grab a marine's gun for 2-3 seconds (making him unable to aim or mouselook for the short duration). However, this would take control away from the marine, and no one ever said lerks have a long tongue, I guess.
Yes I was around when it was Bite/Spike and Spike/Spore, so I have seen the Lerk in all variations.
Spike + Spore was the strongest once you get to the mid-game(LOL Starcraft refrence talk, 2nd Hive then) against tech'd Marines or early Marine JP/HA.
Spikes for HAs and Spores for JPs(Fade Blink Swipe the weakend 1 shot JPs) with the occasional Spike spam at the JPs.
Now the Lerk is practically useless against HAs unless your team is Onos rushing, because then Umbra is useful. However the Lerk can not basically do any direct damage(substantial that is) by itself without risking its own death into Shotgun range territory.
HMGs just make current Lerks laughable. GLs? Well they are really only used in 16v16 Hive pushes where the Nade Spam is just extra goodies.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Yes to Spikes!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <b><u>This is the one thing that had to happen for NS2 in order to take this class back into the role it was intended for.</u></b> Which is mid/short range harass.
Personally, I don't get emotionally invested in my opinion, so I really don't care if you question my credibility (or lack-there-of), certainly not about a game I have stopped playing (but no less enjoyed a lot).
So what part of bite are you missing exactly? The part where you sit behind a res node for 5 minutes? Or the part where you own clueless pubnubs half of which don't even realize where you're coming from? I guarantee the latter will still be an important part of the NS competitive experience no matter what changes. If it's the former you're missing, well, um, maybe you should get a job in data entry or something. I mean, lerks basically were used as vent camping distance shooters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AGREE 100% with you.
out of all the people that are playing now ive seen only 3-5 out of 100 maybe that risk to go out in the open and bite,and mostly its the same people that allways go lerk nobody else dose it, and if they do they will be hiding and gasing only, the lerk has become more of a class for pros only.
I think the new lerk will let allmost everyone play as it and it wont be a pros only class anymore, and that is a good thing a think.
out of all the people that are playing now ive seen only 3-5 out of 100 maybe that risk to go out in the open and bite,and mostly its the same people that allways go lerk nobody else dose it, and if they do they will be hiding and gasing only, the lerk has become more of a class for pros only.
I think the new lerk will let allmost everyone play as it and it wont be a pros only class anymore, and that is a good thing a think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, I'd <b>much</b> rather make the learning curve as encouraging as possible and try to bring up the level of gameplay than to bring down the level of gameplay so that everyone can handle it almost instantly.
I certainly see where Fana(tic) is going with his argumentation and I think based on what UWE has shown us, it's an agreeable concern. Whether it's UWE failing to showcase the exiting features to more hardcore crowd or just the sheer lack of interesting depth/skill features, I don't know. The roost certainly feels like a feature I wouldn't use in a game that's even remotely based on dodging fire and where lerk costs more than the time it takes for alien to respawn. No matter where you're sticking, you're a high priority target and a sitting duck simultaneously.
Personally whilst biting marines (esp. with primal scream) was fun, I think spike is much more consistent with how the average reasonable player uses them (I'm using me as the template here, so quite good at video games in general but not a NS 'pro') which is hang around in vents and generally out of los spamming spore and umbra (wonder if that's gonna be in for lerk in NS2) and only going in if there's a lone marine left who I know has low hp. Anything else was just suicide.
Still I'd have liked the new spike to have a little lower rate of fire, maybe the snipe spike ability will.
I could see lerks flying in to bases, sporing, and flying out of the generated cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's the best suggestion. It gives increased effect (damage to or impaired vision and slowed movement for the marines, or perhaps umbra for the aliens), but also increased risk for the lerk. It gives the marines a way to counter. Instead of just getting irritatingly spored from some random, typically uncreachable location they actually have a chance to down the lerk before it gets to close and releases the cloud.
A thought that just popped up in my head is to allow the lerk to pick up eggs (alien start locations) and drop them somewhere else to combat spawn camping or to (temporarily) move some of the start locations closer to the fighting. That could quickly get a bit tedious tough, shuttling eggs an entire game...
Perhaps the spore projectile spreads out over a larger area when it hits DI/etc. Little things like that could help each player feel like the DI matters to them personally, and provides an incentive to help spread the DI across defensive positions.
Oh, and someone suggest the smoke cover alt-fire again. That's required (/sarcasm).