E-sport?
Glenn Fetty 3
Join Date: 2010-03-06 Member: 70852Members
Join Date: 2010-03-06 Member: 70852Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Will natural selection 2, pursue it?</div>I recall that Natural Selection actually got into CAL '<i>cyberathlete Amateur League</i>', and that is the furthest it came to being involved in e-sport from what I know. What I'm asking is, will Unknownworlds try to push it into the e-sport scene?
I know that the community is a huge factor as well, but for example S2 games gave ESL 500$ as price-money to have in a Heroes of Newerth tournament, that really sky-rocketed it to stardom in the e-sport scene, will unknownworlds try to make their way into the E-sports scene?
My opinion is that the e-sport scene needs a game like this, it's the perfect mix between FPS/RTS, and it's nothing like it more or less, and I'm crossing my fingers that this will be the next e-sport game.
/Glenn Fettty 3.
I know that the community is a huge factor as well, but for example S2 games gave ESL 500$ as price-money to have in a Heroes of Newerth tournament, that really sky-rocketed it to stardom in the e-sport scene, will unknownworlds try to make their way into the E-sports scene?
My opinion is that the e-sport scene needs a game like this, it's the perfect mix between FPS/RTS, and it's nothing like it more or less, and I'm crossing my fingers that this will be the next e-sport game.
/Glenn Fettty 3.
Comments
It really doesnt. If NS2 became wildly popular competetively to the extent that Counter-Strike did, it would probably be a bad thing for e-Sports. I will however, play NS2 competetively when it comes out.
What? Why?
The E-Sports scene is struggling on all fronts, even Korea's Star-Craft has an uncertain future. Counter-Strike won't last forever, and I can't see call of duty or battlefield replacing it. We need NS-2 to be the next big thing; something fun enough to attract tons of players but deep enough to hold them there for years. Now, I know it's incredibly unlikely for NS-2 to even rival counter-strike's or star-craft's popularity, but if any game should, we all know it should be NS-2. THE COOLEST GAME IDEA IN A LOOOONG TIME WOOOO GO NS!!!
Could you please elaborate on which observations you state this hypothesis? I think I'm missing some major steps that would lead to a similar conclusion. :/
I've never participated, but I've played in servers with people who claimed to be on a team in such a league. Called themselves "Pros".
Complete ######.
While there are servers that discriminate against new players in NS1, there are plenty of servers that anyone can play on. The Bad clan, for example.
I'm neither for or against, but I hate people like that. If bringing that scene to NS2 means bringing ######, then I say no.
Still, any attention is good attention. UW deserves all the money they can get. CAPITALIST PEEGS!
It's good to detect the irony in the use of that word.
There is no server that does not wish new players for NS. There are however servers where people actually want people to play the real ns instead of ns_kidsiege1337 or mindless superplugin combat. Most people just think that someone walking to the hive to spawncamp is something personal. One of the reasons why NS1 did stop growing was these playmodes. New players tend to lean to these because the skillcap is irrelevant in these modes as any sane person wouldnt touch them.
Just wondering if they had in mind to actually try to push the game into the E-sports-scene or that they'll leave it by chance and the dedication to the community to do so.
/Glenn Fetty 3
The term "e-sport" is a joke and there are no spectator audiences for e-sports outside of Korea. The single most important aspect to any mainstream or professional sport are the fans. We'll never see a first person shooter have the kind of appeal, in any nation, that Starcraft has in Korea because a first person shooter isn't that fun to watch and the commentary is no where near as interesting as a RTS game.
That's not to say NS2 will not have a competitive scene, much like how HoN's competitive scene has recently exploded, but I doubt it has a shot of attracting an audience that doesn't play the game. There have only been a handful of games that have done this. Most games have a healthy competitive scene with the players joining clans, doing shoutcasts, etc. but that doesn't mean they have a shot at being an e-sport.
The best we can hope for is that NS2 has a healthy competitive scene that keeps the game alive and attracts new players for years to come.
I don't get that statement at all? How is watching an RTS game inherently more interesting then a FPS match from a third person perspective? And by that, I mean something like <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcwt8Mn6OCg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcwt8Mn6OCg</a>
I consider an e-sport to be a game that's elevated past the competitive scene and is actively watched by people who only very casually play the game or do not play it at all. This does not mean that an FPS game can't have a competitive scene, but very few are ever even close to being an e-sport.
I'm not here to make an argument for one side or the other but if an FPS was as entertaining to watch and listen to (as in, listen to the commentary) then they would actually be popular as an e-sport. I mean, look at that video you linked. The first battle is a bunch of rockets flying around and it looks like chaos. There is so much happening that a spectator doesn't know what to watch.
In an RTS there are usually areas of focus like a base, economic harassment, skirmishes, expansions, etc. that give the announcers something to talk about and explain. They can discuss the possible strategies a player could do, is doing, etc during any downtime. Judging from the very few games that have made it to an e-sports level it seems like the general public takes to this kind of discussion far more than "now he's putting mines on the left entrance while his buddy fires some more rockets."
An example of why RTS games are more popular with the general public (hit play, let it load, skip to the middle of the video):
<a href="http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/955" target="_blank">http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/955</a>
The commentary is more engaging and you don't miss what is going on because the game is more focused into viewing single locations. Even my father could understand what happened in that round and the players' strategy and he doesn't know what Starcraft is.
Ok you lucked out, I accidentally hit back on my mouse and deleted my wall of text response. Basically though, your points are correct, but you forgot some things I think are important.
First, CS commentary sucks way more than it has to, with commentators choosing only to recite off kills instead of discussing the meta game and team-work. This is in part due to the average player being really narrow minded when it comes to team-work, but also because there wasn't a great reward for better shoutcasters to step up, so it hasn't really attracted any talent. Korean Star-Craft commentators get paid. Imagine if commentators focused only on how many units were dying in starcraft instead of what their strategy was. OH and a hyrdralisk kills a marine, but wait a marine just killed a hydralisk but was taken down by the marine and then a hyrdalisk comes by and take out the marine but theres another marine waiting !! That's what CS commentary is to me and it's unbearable, but that isn't how all FPS games have to be commentated.
Second, NS-2 will not only be part RTS, but it will hopefully look prettier than alot of previous 'competitive' games. This leads to a much more action packed and visually appealing game I believe, and the setting is so much cooler than a lot of games. If a 10th of the money that is spent on filming football games was spent on spectating matches, I bet we'd get some really cool and relevant footage.
I don't expect NS-2 to ever get to what you would call an E-Sport, but I don't think its unfeasible, just unlikely.
I think it's still more about the games themselves than the commentators. Starcraft has plenty of volunteer commentators, such as Husky, who don't get paid a penny for their services, yet are able to deliver superb commentaries. I find it hard to believe that it's merely chance that Starcraft has talented unpaid commentators, whilst CS doesn't. CS gets called the way it does because the game lends itself to that style of commentary; Starcraft gets called the way it does for the same reason. The commentator can take in the whole map from a top-down view that easily and quickly shows them everything going on and allows them to move immediately to the action, when and where it occurs. One can switch to a free-view in an FPS commentary, or see what a player themselves see, but neither of these offer anything close to what a standard RTS view allows. You end up limiting what both the viewer and the commentator can see, which is bad news for anyone hoping for a thrilling video to watch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, NS-2 will not only be part RTS, but it will hopefully look prettier than alot of previous 'competitive' games. This leads to a much more action packed and visually appealing game I believe, and the setting is so much cooler than a lot of games. If a 10th of the money that is spent on filming football games was spent on spectating matches, I bet we'd get some really cool and relevant footage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starcraft has become what it's become because at the end of the day, it's damn entertaining to watch. Will NS ever be able to deliver something that entertaining? Doubtful. NS has one advantage in that commander view exists (and presumably, Alien commander view will also exist). Now, if it were possible, when spectating a game, to see both commander's views simultaneously (the equivalent of being able to see both players bases and units in Starcraft) the end result might give both the viewer and the commentator enough to work with to produce an entertaining experience. That's a big "if" though. In all likelihood NS2 will provide the same spectator options as NS1, in which case, the commentary isn't likely to be any better.
They aren't limited to the HLTV now, so I'm hopeful they are able to create a far better system. Being able to bring up the minimap and 'zoom' into targets in it would already be tremendous help, not to speak of seeing the upgrades, res counts and exact HPs. Most of that should be very simple to implement as long as the specting feature itself is manageable. Seeing commander views would be awesome too.
NS tops any other game in gameplay. That's not the problem, advertizing and publicity is.
Speaking of NS2 and competitive gaming, given all the news I've heard I doubt NS2 will top NS1 in gameplay but because of the RTS element, it'll still be a lot of fun to play competitively.
Agree with Bacillus on features, HLTV is limited.
I'd be very surprised if this was the case. Charlie seemed pretty interested in the spectator options for NS1, at least he talked about them a lot. Now he has a custom engine with no limitations. It may not make release, though.
I also don't agree that NS isn't fun to watch. Back in the first couple of seasons of CAL, the HLTV servers were usually maxed out during the playoffs, and the IRC channel was filled with people getting word of mouth since they couldn't get in to watch. Competitive NS, where teams exhibit flexibility and coordination, is frequently unpredictable, which makes it entertaining.
It's pretty obvious that the main thing limiting popularity of e-sports is the lack of a bouncing ball for spectators to follow. Literally. I don't understand why that doesn't make them sports, though. They're organized team games that require a lot of skill. I played on a local adult men's amateur soccer league for a couple of seasons. The matches never had more than a couple of spectators, usually wives or girlfriends (or boyfriends). I spoze that means I wasn't playing a sport there either. ;(
I have no doubt NS2 will have a healthy competitive scene, possibly with shoutcasted games nearing 1,000 concurrent viewers, but I doubt we'll ever see an audience sitting down in front of 12 players to watch a best of 3.
Personally, I'm worried about gameplay as much as anything else. Most new games are striving to become more accessible to attract larger fanbases, and while there's certainly nothing wrong with that, it seems like the trend has been to accomplish this by removing much of what separates good players from bad ones. Given that it's something of a cult title, I'd be surprised if NS managed to pull together a large enough community to create a healthy competitive scene all on its own. I'd expect it will have to actively draw players new to the franchise, and the only way to do that is by being a good game for competition.
Some of what we've seen so far has made me worry, although the Skulks did look a lot smaller in that pre-alpha video...
Yeah, there're lots of NS oldschoolers playing TF2, I heard wltrs and Pizza are the best scout duo in EU or something.
Although small, the NS competitive scene had a relatively strong following for its playerbase size. I can still remember epic matches with commentary provided by the NSRadio guys and FFT, complete with mid-game cameo banter and post-match interviews. Nothing beats hearing commentary on your own death...
NS2, in all likelihood, will not if it is simply NS1 with more content. It is just too damn rough on new players. By the way of an anecdote, I re-downloaded NS and tried to play again, and I got <i>owned</i>. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=post&do=reply_post&f=92&t=109035" target="_blank">Cognitive dissonance</a> kicked in and I said "Damn! Skulks move too fast!" Then I played as Aliens and got owned even harder and said "Damn! Skulks move too slow!" Then I realized that the game is balanced, that I'm bad at it, and that all these new games where I figure out how to reach the top of the list within 4 matches doesn't apply to NS. Even when I played CS 1.6 again, I played one match, and my score was 12 kills/2 deaths before it ended. I only played one match because it took about an hour to find a vanilla CS 1.6 server, but for that short time I had a good time.
Another anecdote! Just recently (actually, back when NS2 was announced), I tried to get two people into NS. They got over the graphics of the old HL engine, but they couldn't get any kills whatsoever. One of them hated the idea that when he lost the HMG (and he lost it pretty fast), that he has to wait for the commander to bestow another. Another one tried to play as the fade and got shotgunned pretty easily. Of course, it didn't help when they played on the opposite teams and got owned, respectively, by an HMG user and a fade. They got too frustrated, and went back to Modern Warfare 2 and World of Warcraft.
While there is room for improvement in NS1 the differences in skill you and your friends experienced isn't a flaw in the game or the design. It's just because the game is old and the people still playing this mod have been for years. When this player base was huge you didn't have massive skill discrepancies across the board.
Either way, match making is a very important aspect of any online game. It's absolutely essential that similarly skilled opponents are matched together. In an FPS I think the most ideal situation is to allow server admins to officially self label their server (example: Newbies, Casual, Intermediate, Competitive) while allowing players to filter servers via these labels.
But e-sports is insignificant nowadays, especially with the CPL going down the drain and other mega failures like that million dollar competition which promised so much and then suddenly fell through overnight (can remember name).
Yeah, the lack of HLTV is going to provide huge problems, but I do think they can be solved. With limited resources, I think they are doing it correctly.
Ideally, I would like to see the game develop towards a great state of balance for clan play while HLTV is being developed. Then say for release 1.1 or whatever, you get a slew of balance changes that improve the game and HLTV is released.
Whichever way it works out, I don't see HLTV essential for 1.0, but it has to be very very high on the priority list after this.
edit: I think the unified resource model will help the transtion from public play to competitive play. Going from 24 player or 18 player servers to 12 player servers and players having to deal with fades in half the time etc really made NS feel different at 6v6, but hopefully with the unified resource model, the meta game will feel similar enough at different server sizes.
But e-sports is insignificant nowadays, especially with the CPL going down the drain and other mega failures like that million dollar competition which promised so much and then suddenly fell through overnight (can remember name).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fury.
Could have been a fun game but fell prey to a number of things:
A) grognard capture -- The pros were the only ones the devs really listened to, and it showed. Very finely balanced game.. also a study in masochism for anybody who hadn't been playing since day 1 beta -- this was supposedly going to be fixed by their matchmaking system.
B) bad programming management - They didn't even have someone assigned to the user interface. By the time of the "million dollar contest" they'd coded over so much they had certain basic errors, like the "k" key couldn't be assigned to anything.. at all. Considering the game could have up to 35 inputs with different combinations of spells and attacks, this was just horribly careless, and that's just a single example.
C) bad promotion management - They held the contest before it had any user base, hoping the contest would draw in the people so that their matchmaking system could work. Unfortunately, you put prizes on the line and you're going to get no mercy from the pros, so any new users who tried got mercilessly stomped.. repeatedly.. and of course nobody really wanted to help anybody else. A lot of people came, got slaughtered, and never returned.
However, they're a good study about a bunch of things *not* to do when making a game.
Keep in mind, Starcraft, the biggest "e-sport" ever has none of these features built in, yet it is still huge.
The game play is first and for most, don't worry about mass spectating for now.
Keep in mind, Starcraft, the biggest "e-sport" ever has none of these features built in, yet it is still huge.
The game play is first and for most, don't worry about mass spectating for now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then there's the zomg overlays we've developed for SC obs, and the ones they built into SC2 that are awesome shiny.....
Having a good observer framework is vital if you want specing. While HLTV is a nice stopgap, having more makes it oh so much better. That way if there's a lull in the action, you just throw up some stats and talk!
And really, the Classic NS mode is way better for e-sport. It actually has depth, tech tree, etc.