Requesting Clarifications On Ns Map Specs
MMZRedrum
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9178Members
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9178Members
<div class="IPBDescription">cause someone's got to update those docs</div> Hi folks, long time mapper coming over to the half-life engine for the first time. NS is the first mod to inspire my efforts in mapping for the HL engine, it's that good.
But the docs are a bit outdated, most of the stuff I'm finding pertains to the Technology Release and not to the current release. Most of this I have been able to sort out myself, but I have some questions about the direction the mod is going.
In some of the docs I've read r_speeds should not exceed 600-700. Is this still current?
I've also read that maps should be planned to run in software mode, please tell me this isn't current.
It is nearly 2003, why do you want maps that were designed for 1997 hardware?(like Quake 2 maps) Legacy support is great, and I don't expect everyone to have a GeForce 4.... but trying to support 6 year old hardware is just limiting yourself needlessly. Who is going to have a copy of half-life or cs retail that doesn't have a decent system that can support higher r_speeds w/ 3d hardware. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
But the docs are a bit outdated, most of the stuff I'm finding pertains to the Technology Release and not to the current release. Most of this I have been able to sort out myself, but I have some questions about the direction the mod is going.
In some of the docs I've read r_speeds should not exceed 600-700. Is this still current?
I've also read that maps should be planned to run in software mode, please tell me this isn't current.
It is nearly 2003, why do you want maps that were designed for 1997 hardware?(like Quake 2 maps) Legacy support is great, and I don't expect everyone to have a GeForce 4.... but trying to support 6 year old hardware is just limiting yourself needlessly. Who is going to have a copy of half-life or cs retail that doesn't have a decent system that can support higher r_speeds w/ 3d hardware. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Preferably, me.
Also if you want us to make these maps that are so "broad audience" appealing, you better upgrade your SQL server to support this board audience <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
These forums have been down for what? 36-48 hours?
I don't know anything about mapping though maybe I'm wrong.
NS doesn't <i>currently</i> support software rendering mode. It <i>may</i> in the future, however. Software rendering can only handle 800 polygons before it starts 'dropping faces,' so going over 800 w_polys would be a bad thing.
Oh, and don't blame Comprox's nonsensical remarks on his high post count. Blame it on his being Canadian. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those EXTREMELY RARE people with computers that actually REQUIRE the use of Software Mode will be so crippled in other areas affecting gameplay (network speed, rendering models, using commander mode) that there would be NO POINT in bothering.
Software Mode is just not necessary. To support it would be just redundant and pointless and stupid. I'm sure Flayra has better things to do than to try to dummy down everything to the point of being Software Mode compatible. Making everything run smoothly in HARDWARE mode seems like enough of a challenge to me.
The wpoly limitation I can live with, its rarely a problem... but everyone worrying about software mode is just silly. So lets all just say "To hell with the mode nobody will ever use." Say it! It feels good.
[EDIT] AND HEY! I'm insulted! I'm Canadian! Canadians RULE! I certainly don't judge Americans by certain Americans I've met, Greedo.
Sure you <i>could</i> make a map for a higher spec'd machine, but don't expect it ever to become an offical NS map.
- Most people have pretty good video cards. Probably because they're gamers.
- 40% is insanely high for Software Mode. Perhaps that was a default choice in the survey? Perhaps people didn't bother to fill that section in, or didn't know/care which mode they were using.
- Everyone on the survey <i>can</i> use Hardware Mode (they all have faily good machines and video cards). Nobody would complain if they had to switch. Especially if a Hardware-only rule made NS all that much better.
- This survery is for Half-Life, unless I am mistaken. As Software mode was the default, and changing modes did little more than filter the textures, nobody would bother changing it.
- I already mentioned that nobody's whining on the forums about NS not having Software Mode support. That in itself should make the devs consider omitting such support.
Imposing the Software Mode limitation is a bad decision. And you never know when a bad decision will bite you from behind.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now I've done some investigating into this (with THESE investigating shoes)...
I was testing my maps r_speeds, sitting happily below 800, with my FPS at a rock-solid 60.0fps.
Then I did r_novis 1
R_speeds leapt up to about 4500, as it was drawing most of the map... but my FPS simply bounced over the vsync, and to a solid 30.0fps.
I can't remember how to disable vsync in Hl, or I could plot quite a nice graph, but at about 800 polys, the HL engine seem to encounter some sort of performance hit, pushing it past a single frame/frame, thus halving your frame rate.
BUT
Turning OFF vsync would mean that your framerate would drop to 40-50fps, instead of 30-odd.
I wasn't replying to Comprox... My comment was directed at Black Wolf, as I was not in the mood to be trolled on a topic that I feel is in sore need of real consideration.
I wish that survey had a 4th option... "I dunno what my friggen render mode is." ... I suspect there would be a sharp drop in Software mode votes. Also, you need to question the sampling and science of this survey. Was this a survey of Speakeasy customers? Or was someone molesting walmart shoppers? I personally was unaware of this survey, which makes me curious as to how they got 720245 TOTAL RESPONSES.
Also this survey doesn't ask if you play Half-Life online... for all we know this could be 720245 who play(ed) the single player at some point. Consider that there are only a small percentage of respondents who have slow connections or don't know what their connection speed is, if this is the case why would VALVe invest all that time and effort into making the dial-up friendly net code? Perhaps VALVe does not place any value in this survey, in which case it would be unwise for anyone else to.
Lastly, for those of you framiliar with Slashdot.org you will probably remmeber the disclaimer for their polls:
"This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
All internet surveys should be subject to considerable scrutiny, as they are all victims of these plagues.
My gut tells me that just a simple "I dunno what render mode is" option, like they ask for Network speed, would have dramatically changed these percentages.
Take the survey with a grain of salt, sure, but there is some truth to it.
Take the survey with a grain of salt, sure, but there is some truth to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i am 56kers and download things of 15Mb "every day", i downloaded just 3 days ago a CG movie of 64Mb, for HL i would download a patch. the problem is that i won't try to play HL with my 56k cos i have this modem on my laptop,that has a shi_tty not accelerated graphic card, i tried blue shift but just 1 minute cos it was too shi_tty in SW mode. so i play just on my desktop...that has a 33.6K modem,so i don't play online...this just to say what i said, not take it as an offense! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, TO END THIS SUCKY AND STUPID POST: YOU WANT AN OFFICIAL MAP? respect those guidelines, till they aren't updated, consider 'em to be right. if and when Flayra or an official mapper will modify 'em, so u'll must follow those updates. remember that it's quite easy to add some brushes to add details, the problem is to cut 'em to keep r_speeds low. OPS! but u said that u are a year longer mapper, so u already knew this.
And why u still consider the number of post for the quality of the person who give an aswer? never met the race of spammers?(i'm not saying that people who have lot of posts are spammers...i consider the S community one of the best....before all the guys that just discovered this wonderful mod when it was released came here)
THEN U CAN MAKE ALSO A MODIFIED VERSION OF CS_ITALY, with some infestation made with standard HL textures and func_walls...don't expect that Flayra will consider for an official map.
There is also people who say "i've never read a post of software-sucker guys right here" but registered the forums just in november...have u read all the archivied post?? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If someone feels offended...feel free to say that, but remember that I HAVEN'T POST FOR THIS PURPOSE
Hehhe, i went around in hera and nancy and found a few places at 1100 - 1200....
I never allow mine to get above 600 as a general rule.
Hehhe, i went around in hera and nancy and found a few places at 1100 - 1200....
I never allow mine to get above 600 as a general rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT! and all this time I've been building a map with r_speeds under 300 everywhere! can someone please say what is the correct limit for marine spawn room and elsewhere. I have been having trouble with my creativity and want to make detailed maps but am forcing myself to make under 300 wpollied rooms for everyones "playability" reasons. And if I make it too detailed it won't becoem official, thats bS. As long as I stay under the limits.
IMO I just think its pointless to make the mod support software mode when it runs fine 99.5% of the time without it. I think Soft Mode should be ditched especially if it requires dummying down features, not to mention shackling the (mostly) hardworking, talented people mapping for this mod.
As for Black Dog... didn't you read the FAQ? This board is for people who speak <i>English</i>. If you don't care enough about your opinion to make it UNDERSTANDABLE, than why should we care enough to spend 10 minutes trying to make sense out of it?
sorry...u would take me as a stupid but i don't understand if you are telling i can't write english.
if it's for the abbreviations...sorry, was to write faster.
by the way i haven't any problems to explain, just tell me what to clarify.