Alien 2 Hive = Gg?
littlewild
Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9467Members
Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9467Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Yes, it is a problem.</div> A good commentary from some veteran NS player.
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
What are your experiences? Personally most 2 hive games I played as a marine (both comm/grunt) ended with us being raped by pure fades or 2 fades + lerk umbra. Maybe I am always with a crappy team, but this happens 8 out of 10 times.
The only way marine (IMHO) can win is either they secure 2 hives ASAP or they rush the aliens.
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
What are your experiences? Personally most 2 hive games I played as a marine (both comm/grunt) ended with us being raped by pure fades or 2 fades + lerk umbra. Maybe I am always with a crappy team, but this happens 8 out of 10 times.
The only way marine (IMHO) can win is either they secure 2 hives ASAP or they rush the aliens.
Comments
Seems common enough.
I personally wish Onos were a little tougher. Maybe have 300 armor w/ carapace instead of 200. As it is they go pop under the assault of an HMG in very little time.
Thanks!
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
What are your experiences? Personally most 2 hive games I played as a marine (both comm/grunt) ended with us being raped by pure fades or 2 fades + lerk umbra. Maybe I am always with a crappy team, but this happens 8 out of 10 times.
The only way marine (IMHO) can win is either they secure 2 hives ASAP or they rush the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly the same thing in my mine, and it always happens, at least for this week.
If we get the second hive soon enough, we are pretty sure we are going to win, even without a lerk. Fades, you and me know it: even if marines have HMGs but no HAs, why fear? We have (acid) rocket launchers. I have played many games happened that when we had second hive and they were still stuck in LMGs. Game over. Securing one hive does not mean very much. Many games finished before the third hive was up. But marines usually don't even have a HMG before aliens have the second hive. Game over. Their commander is bad? A few games I had played with good commanders. But I would say it's a matter of time. Getting fades is faster than getting more than one type of heavy equipment. Shotgun plus jetpack early should be a good attempt, I think. (Are they much cheaper than HMG plus HA?)
Securing 2 hives asap is the only way to win... It's true. However, it's quite hard for this to happen. It rarely happened this week, although it happened frequently today. Both marines and their commander must be pretty good. MEANWHILE, at least half of aliens are not good.
Second hive (or fade) seems like the key of the game now. Early second hive. Game Over. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the three tough maps, the aliens seem to spread themselves a little thinner and when they race to get that 2nd hive up, they're either slimly defended or low on resources and aren't able to work themselves into an advantage before the marines start wrecking the place non-stop offense style.
But the heavy offensive marine strategy doesn't leave a lot resources for new equipment since the aliens always go all out on a marine-captured hive and force the turrets and fatories to be replaced constantly. While the marines are busy with their time and money keeping that one hive, the aliens are grabbing the other one. By the time fades show up, the marines don't have the armor and weapons to stand up to them.
I think the marines are on the right track with the "grab the hive" system, but turret farms are so expensive and so easy to destroy that marines wind up right back on the defensive trying to hold them. That's about when the fades come out and the rest is history.
Also, if the commander does a certain build order, they can actually get HMG almost at the very start of the game, and still have defenses. :/
Please define "bigger".
just type r_drawviewmodel 0 that turns off all first person models. I find that EXTREMELY useful for being a skulk, and for marine when using the lmg...the muzzle flash on that thing is so distracting, turning it off helps out so much. Just so you know, when you do this with aliens, you cant see your energy or resource bars...and the 3 hive locations disappear. Some things also disppear with marines, but its not that important.
It has come to the point where i have bound 2 keys to r_drawviewmodel 0 and r_drawviewmodel 1. i ALWAYS play with the models off but if I hear "the hive is under attack" i switch the models on to see which hive is being killed, then turn them right back off.
Another thing that i wondered is why aliens even have a resource "bar". If resources are displayed numerically, why do I need a visual representation as well?
I think the game is actually balanced, all you need is a comm who can manage the money, and outfit only people who listen to his orders and you can win with 2 hives, maybe even 3. Unless of course they've had 3 for a while and you're camping.
When a group of people that have half a brain are playing marine, just give them each an HMG, they don't even need HA... 2 HMG's VS 1 fade = dead fade. Then they need 44 more resources to go fade again.
In reality, I *expect* the aliens to get two hives. Just secure the first, then make sure I've got the right upgrades and attack one of their hives (whichever is least defended). bingo, game over aliens.
Ravlen
You dont know the definition of an exploit dude. An exploit is something that a single person is taking advantage of because of a setting or glitch/bug that they figured out. Example. Way back if you had a Voodoo chipset, you could exploit a bug where you could see as far as you wanted underwater. You could ONLY do this with the voodoo chipset, so therefore its an exploit. Everyone on the planet can type r_drawviewmodel 0. Besides maybe people like to turn off the models cause they get better frames? I'll discuss this in an appropriate thread.
90% of the time once we get fade I win. There was ONE situation that i can remember where we didnt win with the second hive. I think it needs to be looked at as well.
I think the game is actually balanced, all you need is a comm who can manage the money, and outfit only people who listen to his orders and you can win with 2 hives, maybe even 3. Unless of course they've had 3 for a while and you're camping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, he is describing a 6v6 game. Marines have about as much chance of winning a 6v6 games as the aliens have of winning an 12v12 - that is, pretty much none giving two good teams.
In a 12v12 game, the marines win simply by spawning 2-4 faster then the aliens. Just send a steady stream to their hive, and win by attrition.
Or they can win because they have twice as much resources as the aliens in the first 10 minutes (effectivly - the aliens have constant income per alien, meaning the gorges can't build any faster, while the marines can use the double income to build directly. Only after all aliens are filled up - at about the 8 minute point - does the increased income for aliens start to become noticable).
In order to balance out larger games, the spawn rate for aliens must be increased and the resources need to be better balanced.
As it is, the game is pretty much balanced at about 8 players.
using the mousewheel for jump (from my CS's bhoppin days)... one can get a pretty good hover going. (practice is best done in ns_bast, over the em-drill shaft, since you die if u fail)
as for the 2hives = gg. for the most parts yeah.. the acid rockets are NUTS. i spawn, and already have only 70some health.. even a well secured hive (by the marines) can fall to a semi-coordinated fade/lerk attack. 1 lerk for 2 fades works great, since umbra isnt singular.
that said... i've seen games go from marines with 2 hives... some insane skulk attacks preceeded by carefull lerk spiking of the TFs... marines with no hives... aliens attacking main-base with onos... aliens loosing hives (usually due to bad chamber placement). and aliens lossing. but that only happens when the marines have a few players with the know-how, and the commander makes good use of RP.. upgrades, JETPACKS!, etc...
<i>nothing's quite as fun as buzzing around a hive ceiling with a jetpack, lobbing (20+) grenades at the hive. then finishing it off with 2 clips from your pistol, or your knife</i>
But marine's can <i>dish out</i> insane amounts of damage with hitscan weapons that dwarf the acid-rocket used correctly. And even in melee a HMG burst will maim a Fade, if not killing it in it's attempt to get up close.
Presuming the marines have reached mid-techlevel, a two hive game is about equal. It's third hive that goes in favour of the aliens...
Well... A HA/HMG trooper is theorhetically the ultimate marine, while the Onos is the ultimate alien. Unless the marine has backup, the alien will win 9 times out of 10. I don't see what the problem is.
FEAR.
ever heard "Oh sh*t they got fades!" "OMG FADES!!!!" "they got fades we lost!" etc etc?
that's why aliens can win with 2 hives, not because of acid rocket. damn p*ssies - THEY are the reason the game is lost, not the "omnipotent" and "invulnerable" fades.
ever seen this? - fade pops from behind the corner and shoots a group of marines. they see half of their health is gone and run to mommy (commander) begging for health.
BZZZZT !!! WRONG!!!. where do you think he is going? he will heal to full health/armor and come back VERY soon. oops do we still have res. for medpacks? commander give me a jetpack NOW so i can run away from the next fade like a little girl i am! oh nm we have 5 res.....
CHARGE in groups of 3 or more. ambush the slimy monkey behind the doorway so his first shots will go right past you, and run AT fade, guns blazing. put those 50 bullets in his back as he runs away recharging and switch to pistol. still alive after pistol ammo runs out? no problem - pull out your knife or welder and jump on his head screaming! the closer you are, the more damage you are doing, esp with a shotgun or HMG. you don't even need a grenade launcher. yes, most of you WILL die to rockets and claws if you dont have HA. SO F*CKING WHAT? you respawn with full health and free LMG. maybe commander will be nice enough to distress beacon you. maybe he will see that you mean business, and next time you charge a fade he will even spam health on you as you chase yet another fade. or maybe he will save some res - and look the siege is going up right next to the hive! bye bye fades, bring it on, little skulk doggies.
the other thing is the commander getting into defensive posture when he sees the first acid kill icon, blowing all resources on HA and centries instead of HMGs and grenade launchers. what's the point turtling up in the base or hive? the longer aliens have 2 hives, the lesser your chances are to break out and siege, as you WILL be starved out of resources. commanders! do not REACT to fades. ACT to eliminate them and siege that hive even if it means loosing your res towers, marine start area, half of your secondary base etc. build that backup com chair in your hive, spawn portals are cheap and fast to build when you see your are loosing the main base. make your marines stay together - beg, scream, curse, whatever it takes. 2 marines trying to DEFEND agains a fade = 2 dead marines.
10 marines rushing 3 fades form several directions = 3 dead fades who are no longer believe in their invulnerability plus whole marine team who believes they can win.
Please define "bigger".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything bigger than 8vs8. I play on a server that's constantly 12vs12 or 16vs16. So aliens usually have to play much harder, but if I had my "dream-team" of aliens, we'd probably win a good 6 out of 10 games, depending on the marine team. If I had my "dream-team" marines, and my "dream-team" aliens fight each other, I honestly have no idea who'd won, although probably the marines merely because of their faster respawn rates.
Also, on the fade discussion, yes.. I've rushed countless fades and they usually all run.. giving me time to reload when I empty both my LMG and pistol in them. Usually by then, a few more shots of either LMG or Pistol, and the fade is dead. Using this tactic, I've killed 6 fades last night(or a few hours ago) just by doing that. Also, that's going through other fades, sometimes up to four. Mostly, I killed four alone, one that was with another fade, and one with a group of four other fades.
I personally killed at least 5, whereas the last one was probably damaged by some other marines, but I just ended up killing it by delivering the killing blow. (I've also killed fades trying to blink away and succeed, but they still die.. so funny <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Perhaps I should clear things up, I am talking about pub servers.
In theory it is easy to charge down a fade with you LMG + pistol, but I have yet to see more than a handful of people doing this, often I find myself as the only one charging. This is especially ture if the fade is attacking the marine spawn. For some reasons, people like to go to the armoury and let the wounded fade run away to regenerate and do the same thing again. If I may add, pistol first then LMG is a better choice because the pistol is much more accurate than the LMG and can deal 200 damage in a pretty short amount of time.
Sure, fades are relatively easy to kill. Of course, that is if you are dealing with a single fade. You start having problems if there are 2 or more. LMG does not deal splash damage, acid rocket does. 2 fades can take out a group of marines in a relative short amount of time.
Since a marine dies within 3-4 acid rockets, it is kinda hard to push them back if you meet them alone or in pairs. Hit and run fades can kill marines with great ease. Especially at those maps with long corridors with junctions where the fade can pop out to shoot and then duck behind a wall to regenerate.
Of course HMG sounds good against fades. But unfourtunately, fades like to move about quite a bit. Fades die really fast if you shoot at them at point blank to mid range. It is all about getting to that range. Acid rockets are straight line projectiles that deals damage upon impact and is true to its aim until it hits something. HMG bullets are hit-scan based and generally miss a lot at a distance. In short, if you trade blows with a Fade using a HMG at a distance, chances are your view will turn horizontal pretty fast.
Ok, maybe you guys have different views about fade vs marines, but what about fade vs turrects? Let's assume what happens when a fade with regeneration + adrenalin (most common chamber upgrade combination at 2 hive on pub servers) meets a turrect farm protecting a res node? In about 3 mins, your 25 RP turrect factory is gone followed by your X * 19 RP turrects. If that fade lives, the amount of damage he has done is almost worth 2 times the evolve cost. |Fade + upgrade = 48| |TF + 3 Turrects = 82| And I am assuming he is taking one of the turrect first and the res node is still there. Note, it just takes one fade to do this, and you gotta send in at least 2 marines to <b>try</b> to get rid of him.
Oh what about the lerks with umbra? 1 Fade and 1 Lerk vs 2 Marines with HMG. Who do you think will win most of the time?
I know a good marine team with a good comm can stop this against a team of average aliens. But have you thought about a good alien team vs a good marine team? Most of the time the marines won't have HA/HMG when the aliens have 2 hives, so it is probably HMG Marines vs Fades + Lerks. Unless the alien players screw up bad you will have the fades melting every thing at marine spawn in no time.
Here are some problems marines have:
1) Scared of Fades. It's true. I rush Fades all of the time. I took two out last night at once. Count the acid rockets then rush them. Of course, once fades start getting smarter and reserving some energy for those rushing marines, then it will become a battle of who can be the sneakiest. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
2) Turret farms. Oh look, marines have 3 nodes, and 14 turrets before they have a hive. If the commander is spending all of his cash on turrets, he is not spending them on the upgrades which allow marines to kill fades. You don't have to build turrets at every resource point, especially in the opening minutes of the game.
3) <b>Mixed arms.</b>
Why is it that aliens attack with Fades + Lerks + Skulks, and Marines only attack with either HMGs or HMGs + HA?
The marines were given Jetpacks, Shotguns, and Grenade Launchers for a reason. Try using them. How many times have you seen commanders give everyone HA + HMG? Or if HA isn't yet available, give everyone just HMGs?
Mixed Arms are much better. Grenade launchers rip lerks and skulks apart. Shotguns are nice to hit retreating fades (as are pistols). Upgrade weapons and use them.
4) Close in on fades to medium range. Melee range will give the fade too much time to swipe, sniper range (where many marines prefer to use the HMG) will just deal more damage to the hallway than to the fade, due to bulllet spread.
5) Phase Gates, Phase Gates, Phase Gates.
3 basic marines, pistol first, then LMG, rush a fade. Two die, and they get the fade.
Marines lose 0 RP, and are 30 seconds to being back to full strength.
Aliens just lost 48 RP, and are 1min + 48 MORE RP to being back to full strength.
In games where marines stick together, seeing a fade just means 'oo, I can hurt the Aliens a lot more all at once'.
<b>Stick together, you pansies.</b>
Count yourself lucky to have even one non-wussy marine that actually knows what to do on a pub server.
Mixed arms sound like a good solution, but difficult to implement because guns cost RP and if a person die, the gun better gets picked up by another or it is 20+ RP down the drain.
Preventing the 2nd hive from being built is the best strategy and it should be the marine team's focus. IMHO, phase gates that are placed within the vicinty of a hive is an excellent way to get rid of a morphing hive, if you get rid of the 2nd hive before it is built, you have a much better chance against the aliens.
just type r_drawviewmodel 0 that turns off all first person models. I find that EXTREMELY useful for being a skulk, and for marine when using the lmg...the muzzle flash on that thing is so distracting, turning it off helps out so much. Just so you know, when you do this with aliens, you cant see your energy or resource bars...and the 3 hive locations disappear. Some things also disppear with marines, but its not that important.
It has come to the point where i have bound 2 keys to r_drawviewmodel 0 and r_drawviewmodel 1. i ALWAYS play with the models off but if I hear "the hive is under attack" i switch the models on to see which hive is being killed, then turn them right back off.
Another thing that i wondered is why aliens even have a resource "bar". If resources are displayed numerically, why do I need a visual representation as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is <b>CHEATING</b>.
[Wimpy Voice]
"Theres a fade of there. I think I'll stay near this nice turret"
[/Wimpy Voice]
The idea is to take the fight to the fades. When they start to run chase them. They usually do not have a lot of Adrenaline left.