<!--quoteo(post=1753231:date=Feb 15 2010, 09:34 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Feb 15 2010, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lets smush the teams together until all their unique features are gone like a fat kid trying to make its pet rabbit and guinea pig have babies by similarly smushing them together. guess what: It won't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine if those two got together and made a game?
<!--quoteo(post=1753231:date=Feb 15 2010, 03:34 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Feb 15 2010, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lets smush the teams together until all their unique features are gone like a fat kid trying to make its pet rabbit and guinea pig have babies by similarly smushing them together. guess what: It won't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1753232:date=Feb 15 2010, 03:35 AM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Feb 15 2010, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine if those two got together and made a game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets get back on track.
Let me know if this is wrong, but most of us are comparing these new ideas to the old NS. The new NS is obviously different from the old one and the net gun (for combat/utility use) may fill a niche. I believe that the net gun has a good potential. Whether or not it should be implemented is a question best answered during game testing.
Having read alot of these ideas on the forum, I think alot of them are just people trying to create something new, to solve something they are crap at...
For example, The hovering JP... Learn to straddle the space bar...!
I think the net is avoiding the point of joining the marines.
What makes NS unique, and what the original idea was for NS1 - Aliens you can kind of do what you want, Marines are more teamplay based. Whilst obviously both sides need teamplay to win, the marines gain the huge advantage if they all pull together and do what the commander wants.
IF you wonder off on your own with level 1 armor and a HMG, get absolutely raped by a fade, then dont moan! If you run off in a group of 5, with a HMG, I think your find the fade is going to wish it carried the lube!
Marines are a teamplay side - The net will defeat the point of joining them.
If you lack the skill to kill fades, play aliens and rape the marines when you web them!
I feel like the net idea is just one more step towards making the sides the same. Marines and aliens need to be as different as possible-- that's what makes this game so attractive.
What you lack in skill you make up for in teamwork.
Sure you may not be able to solo a fade by dodging and doing fancy footwork just like that other guy but if you're with a squad of marines, you should make an effort to put some bullets into the fade to soften it up so that the others could take it down or keep it away.
I like the idea of a net gun to catch aliens, and disable them for let's say 3 seconds before they manage to get free. But the idea of having a net working as a web I dislike.
The only way something like this could work is if it worked <i>differently</i>.
Say instead of stunning the alien, it disables their primary attack for several seconds, forcing them to retreat. Might be useful if you need to reload or are out of ammo or if you've got a couple more bars left on that thing you're building (though apparently building mechanics have changed for NS2).
e: Although upon further reflection that has its flaws as well.
I don't like disabling alien's only "weapon"; movement. Web is a 3rd hive skill and counterable and stomp is counterable with jps/elevation, all kharaa range is weak or high hive ability (acid rocket). Net is no better than building dropping pre v3.0, where you could essentially block and escape route with a CC or arms lab. Aliens should have nearly free movement with their abilities except when a player blocks them or mines. Structure blocking is one of those terrible things marines have as a tactic that most people agree is lame because it restricts movement and flow, putting aliens at a severe disadvantage. I don't think marines should gain something like a net to restrict their movement unless it requires heavy armor and level 3 weapons and cat packs and motion before it (ie super late game, to be on par/fair) and a specialized weapon against lerks/skulks/gorges and only slows fades (movement breaks nets with enough force or something, prefer not attacking but whatever). Also, making net an area acess item (get into vents and stuff) is a terrible idea because vents are suppose to be an alien advantage. It's their early game advantage. Mine crawling to vents at least required res and a lot of time to do, and even then some vents are already impossible to mine ladder too. I know vents can add some vertical distance so only jps can go, but it's still one of those ambush aspects aliens need early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1765489:date=Apr 10 2010, 02:21 PM:name=-Nemesis-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Nemesis- @ Apr 10 2010, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having read alot of these ideas on the forum, I think alot of them are just people trying to create something new, to solve something they are crap at...
For example, The hovering JP... Learn to straddle the space bar...!
I think the net is avoiding the point of joining the marines.
What makes NS unique, and what the original idea was for NS1 - Aliens you can kind of do what you want, Marines are more teamplay based. Whilst obviously both sides need teamplay to win, the marines gain the huge advantage if they all pull together and do what the commander wants.
IF you wonder off on your own with level 1 armor and a HMG, get absolutely raped by a fade, then dont moan! If you run off in a group of 5, with a HMG, I think your find the fade is going to wish it carried the lube!
Marines are a teamplay side - The net will defeat the point of joining them.
If you lack the skill to kill fades, play aliens and rape the marines when you web them!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but I don't believe you addressed nets at all here. Besides, nets are a teamwork weapon. A net can only hold an alien for 1-2 seconds. If someone tries to Rambo with a net, they won't be very successful. A supporting marine will net the alien while his teammates fire at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1766479:date=Apr 12 2010, 11:15 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 12 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like disabling alien's only "weapon"; movement. Web is a 3rd hive skill and counterable and stomp is counterable with jps/elevation, all kharaa range is weak or high hive ability (acid rocket). Net is no better than building dropping pre v3.0, where you could essentially block and escape route with a CC or arms lab. Aliens should have nearly free movement with their abilities except when a player blocks them or mines. Structure blocking is one of those terrible things marines have as a tactic that most people agree is lame because it restricts movement and flow, putting aliens at a severe disadvantage. I don't think marines should gain something like a net to restrict their movement unless it requires heavy armor and level 3 weapons and cat packs and motion before it (ie super late game, to be on par/fair) and a specialized weapon against lerks/skulks/gorges and only slows fades (movement breaks nets with enough force or something, prefer not attacking but whatever). Also, making net an area acess item (get into vents and stuff) is a terrible idea because vents are suppose to be an alien advantage. It's their early game advantage. Mine crawling to vents at least required res and a lot of time to do, and even then some vents are already impossible to mine ladder too. I know vents can add some vertical distance so only jps can go, but it's still one of those ambush aspects aliens need early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nets probably won't fly very fast, so good alien movement can dodge them. That rewards skill. As far as being a late-in-the-game weapon goes, that is a possibility. I suggested that it be a one shot, non-resuppliable weapon that you spawn with (or I guess you can buy it at the armory) to make use of the net limited. Also, it only restricts movement for a short duration of time (1-2 seconds). If I were an alien, I'd prefer that a marine waste their time trying to net me instead of shooting me with an hmg.
Do remember that the blocking nets are easy to destroy (2 hits). If I were an alien at a fork in the vent and I had the choice between a mine and a net, I'd choose the net. Though, as a marine, I wouldn't waste a net on a vent.
If I were an alien and I had a choice of two hallways while under fire. One was blocked by marine structures and one was blocked by a net, I'd choose the one with the net because they are easy to destroy. The net is just an inconvenience.
I think to help combat aliens, the marines should get tranquilizers in place of nets. This way instead of just holding down an alien for 2-3 seconds(it takes like 5 seconds to lock onto a stationary object right?) it will in 10-30 seconds pass out and can't move for like a minute. That way marines will be fun for all, no fade rape here.
<!--quoteo(post=1766565:date=Apr 13 2010, 10:03 AM:name=ehsho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ehsho @ Apr 13 2010, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think to help combat aliens, the marines should get tranquilizers in place of nets. This way instead of just holding down an alien for 2-3 seconds(it takes like 5 seconds to lock onto a stationary object right?) it will in 10-30 seconds pass out and can't move for like a minute. That way marines will be fun for all, no fade rape here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already suggested something similar: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108897" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=108897</a>
The net should only hold an alien down for 1-2 seconds. That's the time it takes to do the 2 hits I suggested are needed to destroy the net.
Just to let you know, a one second disable is a HUGE deal (the lower of your disable time). A fade was chopped by a level 1 HMG in 2.8 seconds in NS assuming all shots hit (NS damage calculator, excluding negligible regen). That means after maybe 4 seconds of 25% accuracy (basically 1 second of damage/DPS) and an additional 1 second because of the disable (you aren't gonna miss a stationary object I hope) and then a final .8 seconds worth of damage to do. If you had 2+ marines, one with an HMG and another with lmg, the fade would have virtually no chance if he gets caught (think 1.5 or higher multiplier of the DPS. shotguns have a much better burst fire ability, and if one sger gets 2 shots off the fade should already be in the deep/dead from lmg fire). And if the net becomes a cheap/free item, everybody will rush to get them and make fades worthless because of having nets spammed at you (you can't risk getting close). If you make nets ridiculously hard to aim or catch a fade, they become a useless item not worth implementing because they're not cost efficient for using on skulks (lerks should always be out of range as a harasser, gorges should be back lines, and only onos/fades will be up front. if fades are extremely hard to catch, they become a waste of res because of how much res you're gonna waste missing or why waste res teching it at all if nobody can use it effectively).
I'm just saying, if you've ever seen a good marine with hmg/jp or just hmg and support vs a good fade, the fade already requires much more skill to kill the hmg/jp marine than it is for that marine to kill the fade. Heavies are a huge problem for fades already. Fades shouldn't have to deal with another unskilled to use but extremely effective item. If they do require great amounts of skill, fall back to the last paragraph, but I don't see the point of nerfing aliens anymore.
Btw, I'd actually like to see more alien ideas than all these marine ideas/buffs (an option is automatically a buff because it can be avoided (and also not worth time to implement) or provide a good advantage).
PS. to the other guy, long disabling/stuns are NEVER fun in FPS. devour is already one of the most annoying abilities on aliens to deal with. don't need anymore abilities like that anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1766720:date=Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(you aren't gonna miss a stationary object I hope)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not necessarily stationary. If netted in mid air, it still has to fall to the ground. It isn't going to stop in mid air and fall. If it is flying at 60mph, then it's still moving 60mph until it hits the ground or another object. Any alien in this situation could have attacked the net at least once during this time before they are stationary. Thus, the time immobilized could be near-zero.
<!--quoteo(post=1766720:date=Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if the net becomes a cheap/free item, everybody will rush to get them and make fades worthless because of having nets spammed at you (you can't risk getting close). If you make nets ridiculously hard to aim or catch a fade, they become a useless item not worth implementing because they're not cost efficient for using on skulks (lerks should always be out of range as a harasser, gorges should be back lines, and only onos/fades will be up front.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I imagine the net flying about as fast as a grenade. So imagine your accuracy of hitting a moving alien with a grenade and then multiply it by about 3 because the net is bigger than a grenade (think of a shotgun blast with a slow velocity). It takes some skill unless up close. Thus, it rewards skill.
Remember that if you have a net out, you don't have a gun out. Also, we aren't going to see a marine squad all with nets out, ready to fire. There'll be that one guy who likes the strategy and the others like the big guns and want the kills.
Note: Onos can't be netted.
<!--quoteo(post=1766720:date=Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades shouldn't have to deal with another unskilled to use but extremely effective item. If they do require great amounts of skill, fall back to the last paragraph, but I don't see the point of nerfing aliens anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, they are geared to reward skill and the risk of strategy (not having a gun out). This has its advantage to aliens. The marines are firing nets, not guns. I'd rather the enemy fire pillows at me if you know what I mean. Besides, a good alien can evade the slow moving nets.
Someone once posted that NS has always worked on a rock-paper-scissors principle. If you throw heavy and they throw Onos, onos wins. If you throw grenade launcher and they throw fade, fade wins. If you throw net and they throw frontal melee attack, net (potentially) wins (with teamwork).
<!--quoteo(post=1766753:date=Apr 13 2010, 08:47 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Apr 13 2010, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What would you like to do?
*Jimyd throws Net Pokeball at Battle-Bug.*
...
...
..?
!!!
*Wild Battle-Bug was caught.*
Would you like to give a Nickname to the OP?
Battle-Bug's nickname was changed to: BAD IDEA.
=)
(Been playing Pokemon SoulSilver if you couldn't tell... or are a rock living under a rock.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The alien pokemon in NS2 can break free from the net pokeball in no time.
<!--quoteo(post=1766750:date=Apr 14 2010, 02:35 AM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Apr 14 2010, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not necessarily stationary. If netted in mid air, it still has to fall to the ground. It isn't going to stop in mid air and fall. If it is flying at 60mph, then it's still moving 60mph until it hits the ground or another object. Any alien in this situation could have attacked the net at least once during this time before they are stationary. Thus, the time immobilized could be near-zero.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So it promotes aliens to keep attacking while moving most of the time once they know nets are out (attacking is low energy cost) and then net becomes useless because immobilization time becomes 0 (again you keep changing your values. State the least amount of time truly immobilized, and if not and just a 2 hit bind that stops you from changing momentum. You need to have the exact idea and values and actual physics so that I can actually tell you why it might fail in concept.) Also, it's very easy to track or learn to track something following a fixed parabola down. If the player loses movement after the net, people will be able to either trace the fade in a predictable parabola or go behind it's path and just shoot straight ahead (aim roll down to adjust as it falls) or the fade will hit a wall and be an easy kill going straight down, most likely scenario.
<!--quoteo(post=1766750:date=Apr 14 2010, 02:35 AM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Apr 14 2010, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I imagine the net flying about as fast as a grenade. So imagine your accuracy of hitting a moving alien with a grenade and then multiply it by about 3 because the net is bigger than a grenade (think of a shotgun blast with a slow velocity). <u>It takes some skill <b>unless up close</b></u>. Thus, it rewards skill.
Remember that if you have a net out, you don't have a gun out. Also, we aren't going to see a marine squad all with nets out, ready to fire. There'll be that one guy who likes the strategy and the others like the big guns and want the kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades do have to get close up to attack. So it takes skills to catch a running fade or a fade far away, but if the fade tries to be useful and attack it no longer rewards skill. Severe flaw. I don't see why a fade would ever want to run towards the net marine if he's going to use a no skill item to disable him when at least you can run away after hitting the guy with a gun out once. And also, speaking in the world where everybody is using the Nash equilibrium strategy, all the marines WILL have nets out because you can permanently disable the fade by throwing net after net if one hits and it breaks out again. I don't want to infer one marine is going to be an idiot and knife a fade over shooting, likewise I'm going to assume a marine/marine squad will be smart enough to adapt with most players on nets if they're aware of the fade with maybe one gunner for him (if there are skulks, more guns out, but skulks die in less than a second to HMGs and 1shotted by shotguns. They aren't lasting like the fade is made to).
<!--quoteo(post=1766761:date=Apr 13 2010, 09:29 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 13 2010, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So it promotes aliens to keep attacking while moving most of the time once they know nets are out (attacking is low energy cost) and then net becomes useless because immobilization time becomes 0 (again you keep changing your values. State the least amount of time truly immobilized, and if not and just a 2 hit bind that stops you from changing momentum. You need to have the exact idea and values and actual physics so that I can actually tell you why it might fail in concept.) Also, it's very easy to track or learn to track something following a fixed parabola down. If the player loses movement after the net, people will be able to either trace the fade in a predictable parabola or go behind it's path and just shoot straight ahead (aim roll down to adjust as it falls) or the fade will hit a wall and be an easy kill going straight down, most likely scenario.
Fades do have to get close up to attack. So it takes skills to catch a running fade or a fade far away, but if the fade tries to be useful and attack it no longer rewards skill. Severe flaw. I don't see why a fade would ever want to run towards the net marine if he's going to use a no skill item to disable him when at least you can run away after hitting the guy with a gun out once. And also, speaking in the world where everybody is using the Nash equilibrium strategy, all the marines WILL have nets out because you can permanently disable the fade by throwing net after net if one hits and it breaks out again. I don't want to infer one marine is going to be an idiot and knife a fade over shooting, likewise I'm going to assume a marine/marine squad will be smart enough to adapt with most players on nets if they're aware of the fade with maybe one gunner for him (if there are skulks, more guns out, but skulks die in less than a second to HMGs and 1shotted by shotguns. They aren't lasting like the fade is made to).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright... 1. Nets can withstand two melee hits. A netted alien is stationary if on the ground and netted. If netted in mid air, it continues on its previous trajectory until it hit the ground or another object. Two normal speed melee attacks can be done in just under a second, depending on the alien. If there is focus, it will take longer (finally, a downside to focus).
Note: It doesn't help to say that the alien is netted for too long and then say it is too short when I introduce a scenario when the duration is short. There is a possible spectrum of times that an alien can be netted. It can be from 0 seconds of being stationary to the round's end if they decide not to hit the net.
2. Porabolas are easy to track, but not as easy as a stationary target.
3. In NS1, I noticed that fades attack from behind half the time. Don't assume that an alien always has to perform a frontal assault. This is an acceptable strategy against nets.
4. All marines wont have a net gun out. They are useless against onos, don't do well at long range, and a real gun can actually kill aliens. I don't see all marines running around with hand grenades near the beginning of a game. Also, the net gun is a 1 shot item. If there are 5 marines with 5 net guns, they can fire a total of 5 nets. Plus, we can code it so that an alien has a half second delay between nettings to help it escape.
5. If a marine knifes a net, he effectively hits the net and helps the alien.
<!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is focus, it will take longer (finally, a downside to focus).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean like not having dc upgrade or an mc upgrade(depending on chamber choice) right? Or welders, or marine who can aim, or armor 3 + meds. <!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Porabolas are easy to track, but not as easy as a stationary target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Straight line isn't as easy as stationary either, lets remove strafe keys. <!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In NS1, I noticed that fades attack from behind half the time. Don't assume that an alien always has to perform a frontal assault. This is an acceptable strategy against nets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank god marines dont have sound, motion tracking, or ever check behind them. Perfect strat against 15 BattleBugs. <!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see all marines running around with hand grenades near the beginning of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I always find marines who's first response to skulk is to nade their feet. You really don't think they'll be running around with the net out? The same players who will build a cc dropped in front of them mid hive sg rush, or who whip out a welder only when an onos is in sight?
If you played ns outside of bot servers you'd realize that anything sitting still, OR EVEN in a predictable movement pattern was an easy kill. If you find one decent player you'll notice how quickly they can roll an alien who isn't moving or is moving in a predictable falling path. With a net lifeforms will to too fragile and will have to be too careful to even be of use. Wouldn't it be fun to save up 50 res to fade, just to get netted in the first set of 2-3 marines you happen to pass and die instantly because you lose your ability to move.
BTW me mentioning a tranquilizer was me MOCKING YOU, you're idea is terrible. I"m assuming your tranquilidea is just as terrible. Stop playing against bots or on combat and find out how awful your ideas are.
<!--quoteo(post=1766565:date=Apr 13 2010, 10:03 AM:name=ehsho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ehsho @ Apr 13 2010, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think to help combat aliens, the marines should get tranquilizers in place of nets. This way instead of just holding down an alien for 2-3 seconds(it takes like 5 seconds to lock onto a stationary object right?) it will in 10-30 seconds pass out and can't move for like a minute. That way marines will be fun for all, no fade rape here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The net should only hold an alien down for 1-2 seconds. That's the time it takes to do the 2 hits I suggested are needed to destroy the net.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're taking him seriously? You suggested a ten second stun? Wow. You people really are insane.
Things the devs spend time on should add utility and fun to the game. Without making the net too unfair, and without making it too similar to any alien ability, I don't see much reason to consider it.
Keep in mind that a huge part of learning and playing NS is movement. The gorge web serves to counter late game JPs, as it is too unreasonable to expect that precise of alien movement to kill flying objects, but this net idea effectively counters plain alien movement.
Marines have guns. That is their counter to alien movement, not reducing alien movement itself. And I know someone will say "oh well it only does it for a short instant" or some sort. Well then that goes back to my original point-- it isnt worth putting in the game then. And the idea of letting marines get to more places is okay, but that's what JPs are for, and to further asymmetry, aliens typically have access to parts of the map that marines dont. The net idea reduces some of that asymmetry, along with other aspects.
<!--quoteo(post=1766961:date=Apr 14 2010, 02:16 PM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Apr 14 2010, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're taking him seriously? You suggested a ten second stun? Wow. You people really are insane.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There was no stunning involved... merely visual and audio impairment. Its effect was also scalable depending on many variables.
<!--quoteo(post=1767050:date=Apr 15 2010, 04:19 AM:name=The-Jehuty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The-Jehuty @ Apr 15 2010, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->something like that? <img src="http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9258/obamarine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol... that's about the effect it would have on an Onos... not effective of all.
Comments
Imagine if those two got together and made a game?
<!--quoteo(post=1753232:date=Feb 15 2010, 03:35 AM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Feb 15 2010, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine if those two got together and made a game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets get back on track.
Let me know if this is wrong, but most of us are comparing these new ideas to the old NS. The new NS is obviously different from the old one and the net gun (for combat/utility use) may fill a niche. I believe that the net gun has a good potential. Whether or not it should be implemented is a question best answered during game testing.
For example, The hovering JP... Learn to straddle the space bar...!
I think the net is avoiding the point of joining the marines.
What makes NS unique, and what the original idea was for NS1 - Aliens you can kind of do what you want, Marines are more teamplay based.
Whilst obviously both sides need teamplay to win, the marines gain the huge advantage if they all pull together and do what the commander wants.
IF you wonder off on your own with level 1 armor and a HMG, get absolutely raped by a fade, then dont moan!
If you run off in a group of 5, with a HMG, I think your find the fade is going to wish it carried the lube!
Marines are a teamplay side - The net will defeat the point of joining them.
If you lack the skill to kill fades, play aliens and rape the marines when you web them!
Sure you may not be able to solo a fade by dodging and doing fancy footwork just like that other guy but if you're with a squad of marines, you should make an effort to put some bullets into the fade to soften it up so that the others could take it down or keep it away.
Say instead of stunning the alien, it disables their primary attack for several seconds, forcing them to retreat. Might be useful if you need to reload or are out of ammo or if you've got a couple more bars left on that thing you're building (though apparently building mechanics have changed for NS2).
e: Although upon further reflection that has its flaws as well.
For example, The hovering JP... Learn to straddle the space bar...!
I think the net is avoiding the point of joining the marines.
What makes NS unique, and what the original idea was for NS1 - Aliens you can kind of do what you want, Marines are more teamplay based.
Whilst obviously both sides need teamplay to win, the marines gain the huge advantage if they all pull together and do what the commander wants.
IF you wonder off on your own with level 1 armor and a HMG, get absolutely raped by a fade, then dont moan!
If you run off in a group of 5, with a HMG, I think your find the fade is going to wish it carried the lube!
Marines are a teamplay side - The net will defeat the point of joining them.
If you lack the skill to kill fades, play aliens and rape the marines when you web them!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but I don't believe you addressed nets at all here. Besides, nets are a teamwork weapon. A net can only hold an alien for 1-2 seconds. If someone tries to Rambo with a net, they won't be very successful. A supporting marine will net the alien while his teammates fire at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1766479:date=Apr 12 2010, 11:15 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 12 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like disabling alien's only "weapon"; movement. Web is a 3rd hive skill and counterable and stomp is counterable with jps/elevation, all kharaa range is weak or high hive ability (acid rocket). Net is no better than building dropping pre v3.0, where you could essentially block and escape route with a CC or arms lab. Aliens should have nearly free movement with their abilities except when a player blocks them or mines. Structure blocking is one of those terrible things marines have as a tactic that most people agree is lame because it restricts movement and flow, putting aliens at a severe disadvantage. I don't think marines should gain something like a net to restrict their movement unless it requires heavy armor and level 3 weapons and cat packs and motion before it (ie super late game, to be on par/fair) and a specialized weapon against lerks/skulks/gorges and only slows fades (movement breaks nets with enough force or something, prefer not attacking but whatever). Also, making net an area acess item (get into vents and stuff) is a terrible idea because vents are suppose to be an alien advantage. It's their early game advantage. Mine crawling to vents at least required res and a lot of time to do, and even then some vents are already impossible to mine ladder too. I know vents can add some vertical distance so only jps can go, but it's still one of those ambush aspects aliens need early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nets probably won't fly very fast, so good alien movement can dodge them. That rewards skill. As far as being a late-in-the-game weapon goes, that is a possibility. I suggested that it be a one shot, non-resuppliable weapon that you spawn with (or I guess you can buy it at the armory) to make use of the net limited. Also, it only restricts movement for a short duration of time (1-2 seconds). If I were an alien, I'd prefer that a marine waste their time trying to net me instead of shooting me with an hmg.
Do remember that the blocking nets are easy to destroy (2 hits). If I were an alien at a fork in the vent and I had the choice between a mine and a net, I'd choose the net. Though, as a marine, I wouldn't waste a net on a vent.
If I were an alien and I had a choice of two hallways while under fire. One was blocked by marine structures and one was blocked by a net, I'd choose the one with the net because they are easy to destroy. The net is just an inconvenience.
I already suggested something similar:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108897" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=108897</a>
The net should only hold an alien down for 1-2 seconds. That's the time it takes to do the 2 hits I suggested are needed to destroy the net.
I'm just saying, if you've ever seen a good marine with hmg/jp or just hmg and support vs a good fade, the fade already requires much more skill to kill the hmg/jp marine than it is for that marine to kill the fade. Heavies are a huge problem for fades already. Fades shouldn't have to deal with another unskilled to use but extremely effective item. If they do require great amounts of skill, fall back to the last paragraph, but I don't see the point of nerfing aliens anymore.
Btw, I'd actually like to see more alien ideas than all these marine ideas/buffs (an option is automatically a buff because it can be avoided (and also not worth time to implement) or provide a good advantage).
PS. to the other guy, long disabling/stuns are NEVER fun in FPS. devour is already one of the most annoying abilities on aliens to deal with. don't need anymore abilities like that anymore.
It's not necessarily stationary. If netted in mid air, it still has to fall to the ground. It isn't going to stop in mid air and fall. If it is flying at 60mph, then it's still moving 60mph until it hits the ground or another object. Any alien in this situation could have attacked the net at least once during this time before they are stationary. Thus, the time immobilized could be near-zero.
<!--quoteo(post=1766720:date=Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if the net becomes a cheap/free item, everybody will rush to get them and make fades worthless because of having nets spammed at you (you can't risk getting close). If you make nets ridiculously hard to aim or catch a fade, they become a useless item not worth implementing because they're not cost efficient for using on skulks (lerks should always be out of range as a harasser, gorges should be back lines, and only onos/fades will be up front.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine the net flying about as fast as a grenade. So imagine your accuracy of hitting a moving alien with a grenade and then multiply it by about 3 because the net is bigger than a grenade (think of a shotgun blast with a slow velocity). It takes some skill unless up close. Thus, it rewards skill.
Remember that if you have a net out, you don't have a gun out. Also, we aren't going to see a marine squad all with nets out, ready to fire. There'll be that one guy who likes the strategy and the others like the big guns and want the kills.
Note: Onos can't be netted.
<!--quoteo(post=1766720:date=Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades shouldn't have to deal with another unskilled to use but extremely effective item. If they do require great amounts of skill, fall back to the last paragraph, but I don't see the point of nerfing aliens anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, they are geared to reward skill and the risk of strategy (not having a gun out). This has its advantage to aliens. The marines are firing nets, not guns. I'd rather the enemy fire pillows at me if you know what I mean. Besides, a good alien can evade the slow moving nets.
Someone once posted that NS has always worked on a rock-paper-scissors principle. If you throw heavy and they throw Onos, onos wins. If you throw grenade launcher and they throw fade, fade wins. If you throw net and they throw frontal melee attack, net (potentially) wins (with teamwork).
*Jimyd throws Net Pokeball at Battle-Bug.*
...
...
..?
!!!
*Wild Battle-Bug was caught.*
Would you like to give a Nickname to the OP?
Battle-Bug's nickname was changed to: BAD IDEA.
=)
(Been playing Pokemon SoulSilver if you couldn't tell... or are a rock living under a rock.)
*Jimyd throws Net Pokeball at Battle-Bug.*
...
...
..?
!!!
*Wild Battle-Bug was caught.*
Would you like to give a Nickname to the OP?
Battle-Bug's nickname was changed to: BAD IDEA.
=)
(Been playing Pokemon SoulSilver if you couldn't tell... or are a rock living under a rock.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien pokemon in NS2 can break free from the net pokeball in no time.
So it promotes aliens to keep attacking while moving most of the time once they know nets are out (attacking is low energy cost) and then net becomes useless because immobilization time becomes 0 (again you keep changing your values. State the least amount of time truly immobilized, and if not and just a 2 hit bind that stops you from changing momentum. You need to have the exact idea and values and actual physics so that I can actually tell you why it might fail in concept.) Also, it's very easy to track or learn to track something following a fixed parabola down. If the player loses movement after the net, people will be able to either trace the fade in a predictable parabola or go behind it's path and just shoot straight ahead (aim roll down to adjust as it falls) or the fade will hit a wall and be an easy kill going straight down, most likely scenario.
<!--quoteo(post=1766750:date=Apr 14 2010, 02:35 AM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Apr 14 2010, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I imagine the net flying about as fast as a grenade. So imagine your accuracy of hitting a moving alien with a grenade and then multiply it by about 3 because the net is bigger than a grenade (think of a shotgun blast with a slow velocity). <u>It takes some skill <b>unless up close</b></u>. Thus, it rewards skill.
Remember that if you have a net out, you don't have a gun out. Also, we aren't going to see a marine squad all with nets out, ready to fire. There'll be that one guy who likes the strategy and the others like the big guns and want the kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades do have to get close up to attack. So it takes skills to catch a running fade or a fade far away, but if the fade tries to be useful and attack it no longer rewards skill. Severe flaw. I don't see why a fade would ever want to run towards the net marine if he's going to use a no skill item to disable him when at least you can run away after hitting the guy with a gun out once. And also, speaking in the world where everybody is using the Nash equilibrium strategy, all the marines WILL have nets out because you can permanently disable the fade by throwing net after net if one hits and it breaks out again. I don't want to infer one marine is going to be an idiot and knife a fade over shooting, likewise I'm going to assume a marine/marine squad will be smart enough to adapt with most players on nets if they're aware of the fade with maybe one gunner for him (if there are skulks, more guns out, but skulks die in less than a second to HMGs and 1shotted by shotguns. They aren't lasting like the fade is made to).
What I'm trying to say is, "Nets for Marines" = omgno...
Fades do have to get close up to attack. So it takes skills to catch a running fade or a fade far away, but if the fade tries to be useful and attack it no longer rewards skill. Severe flaw. I don't see why a fade would ever want to run towards the net marine if he's going to use a no skill item to disable him when at least you can run away after hitting the guy with a gun out once. And also, speaking in the world where everybody is using the Nash equilibrium strategy, all the marines WILL have nets out because you can permanently disable the fade by throwing net after net if one hits and it breaks out again. I don't want to infer one marine is going to be an idiot and knife a fade over shooting, likewise I'm going to assume a marine/marine squad will be smart enough to adapt with most players on nets if they're aware of the fade with maybe one gunner for him (if there are skulks, more guns out, but skulks die in less than a second to HMGs and 1shotted by shotguns. They aren't lasting like the fade is made to).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright...
1. Nets can withstand two melee hits. A netted alien is stationary if on the ground and netted. If netted in mid air, it continues on its previous trajectory until it hit the ground or another object. Two normal speed melee attacks can be done in just under a second, depending on the alien. If there is focus, it will take longer (finally, a downside to focus).
Note: It doesn't help to say that the alien is netted for too long and then say it is too short when I introduce a scenario when the duration is short. There is a possible spectrum of times that an alien can be netted. It can be from 0 seconds of being stationary to the round's end if they decide not to hit the net.
2. Porabolas are easy to track, but not as easy as a stationary target.
3. In NS1, I noticed that fades attack from behind half the time. Don't assume that an alien always has to perform a frontal assault. This is an acceptable strategy against nets.
4. All marines wont have a net gun out. They are useless against onos, don't do well at long range, and a real gun can actually kill aliens. I don't see all marines running around with hand grenades near the beginning of a game. Also, the net gun is a 1 shot item. If there are 5 marines with 5 net guns, they can fire a total of 5 nets. Plus, we can code it so that an alien has a half second delay between nettings to help it escape.
5. If a marine knifes a net, he effectively hits the net and helps the alien.
<!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Porabolas are easy to track, but not as easy as a stationary target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Straight line isn't as easy as stationary either, lets remove strafe keys.
<!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In NS1, I noticed that fades attack from behind half the time. Don't assume that an alien always has to perform a frontal assault. This is an acceptable strategy against nets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank god marines dont have sound, motion tracking, or ever check behind them. Perfect strat against 15 BattleBugs.
<!--QuoteBegin-"BattleBug"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("BattleBug")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see all marines running around with hand grenades near the beginning of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I always find marines who's first response to skulk is to nade their feet. You really don't think they'll be running around with the net out? The same players who will build a cc dropped in front of them mid hive sg rush, or who whip out a welder only when an onos is in sight?
If you played ns outside of bot servers you'd realize that anything sitting still, OR EVEN in a predictable movement pattern was an easy kill. If you find one decent player you'll notice how quickly they can roll an alien who isn't moving or is moving in a predictable falling path. With a net lifeforms will to too fragile and will have to be too careful to even be of use. Wouldn't it be fun to save up 50 res to fade, just to get netted in the first set of 2-3 marines you happen to pass and die instantly because you lose your ability to move.
BTW me mentioning a tranquilizer was me MOCKING YOU, you're idea is terrible. I"m assuming your tranquilidea is just as terrible. Stop playing against bots or on combat and find out how awful your ideas are.
I do like:
-the idea of using nets as bridges/wall blocks.
-the expanding one shot net that can quickly block of a halfway, helping out an escape.
But both for the Gorge.
This is sarcasm right? A one minute stun? Really?
<!--quoteo(post=1766679:date=Apr 13 2010, 02:46 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Apr 13 2010, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I already suggested something similar:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108897" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=108897</a>
The net should only hold an alien down for 1-2 seconds. That's the time it takes to do the 2 hits I suggested are needed to destroy the net.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're taking him seriously? You suggested a ten second stun? Wow. You people really are insane.
Keep in mind that a huge part of learning and playing NS is movement. The gorge web serves to counter late game JPs, as it is too unreasonable to expect that precise of alien movement to kill flying objects, but this net idea effectively counters plain alien movement.
Marines have guns. That is their counter to alien movement, not reducing alien movement itself. And I know someone will say "oh well it only does it for a short instant" or some sort. Well then that goes back to my original point-- it isnt worth putting in the game then. And the idea of letting marines get to more places is okay, but that's what JPs are for, and to further asymmetry, aliens typically have access to parts of the map that marines dont. The net idea reduces some of that asymmetry, along with other aspects.
There was no stunning involved... merely visual and audio impairment. Its effect was also scalable depending on many variables.
<img src="http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9258/obamarine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9258/obamarine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol... that's about the effect it would have on an Onos... not effective of all.