Another hop movement combo
Bacillus
Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
So yeah, yet another bhop replacement kinda discussion. The jumping thread brought up the flames again and I'd just like to hear comments on the inuitiviness of this combo. I think the most simple description for this one is that it takes Quake 3 strafejumping mechanics and adds air control (without speed effects) to it. Not very original.
I suggested this system a while ago on some random bhop thread, but the thread died out shortly back then, so I never really got any input on whether this is any improvement to anything. Now that the movement subject is back on the discussion, I thought I'd hear your thoughts.
1.) The speed is only gained on the exact landing/jump moment. At that point you want to hold forward (!) and strafe key to the direction you're moving your mouse. The jump timing should be automated Quake-style (hold jump midair to jump instantly afterwards). I guess it could even be explained as some kind of skulk gallop method.
2.) While midair the speed remains the same unless you try to do some big turns overly sharp. In HL all kinds of wiggles slow you down or speed you up, which makes bhop pretty tricky. This system has none of it.
3.) The skill mechanical is still somewhat present on how quickly player can reach the full speed and how well they control the skulk midair. The gameplay depth is mostly preserved, because core features like accelration, precision, sounds and certain predictability are still there.
4.) The learning curve is far smoother because new players can completely focus on the landing moment and it's mouse/keyboard combination instead of trying to control the curve throughout the whole bhop. Even newbies won't be losing speed on corridors as long as they keep timing their jumps, any extra effort they'll do on landing phase will add up their speed. Jump timing doesn't add as much complexity as it does now.
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That's assuming that leap doesn't take over the whole skulk movement business of course. So far we can only guess how it affects the skulking. It's also probably pretty tricky stuff to code a responsive air control system without speed affecting elements in it.
I suggested this system a while ago on some random bhop thread, but the thread died out shortly back then, so I never really got any input on whether this is any improvement to anything. Now that the movement subject is back on the discussion, I thought I'd hear your thoughts.
1.) The speed is only gained on the exact landing/jump moment. At that point you want to hold forward (!) and strafe key to the direction you're moving your mouse. The jump timing should be automated Quake-style (hold jump midair to jump instantly afterwards). I guess it could even be explained as some kind of skulk gallop method.
2.) While midair the speed remains the same unless you try to do some big turns overly sharp. In HL all kinds of wiggles slow you down or speed you up, which makes bhop pretty tricky. This system has none of it.
3.) The skill mechanical is still somewhat present on how quickly player can reach the full speed and how well they control the skulk midair. The gameplay depth is mostly preserved, because core features like accelration, precision, sounds and certain predictability are still there.
4.) The learning curve is far smoother because new players can completely focus on the landing moment and it's mouse/keyboard combination instead of trying to control the curve throughout the whole bhop. Even newbies won't be losing speed on corridors as long as they keep timing their jumps, any extra effort they'll do on landing phase will add up their speed. Jump timing doesn't add as much complexity as it does now.
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That's assuming that leap doesn't take over the whole skulk movement business of course. So far we can only guess how it affects the skulking. It's also probably pretty tricky stuff to code a responsive air control system without speed affecting elements in it.
Comments
Now if only we could find a way to let something rocket jump, the game would be perfect.
See Warsow and how they made bhop an integral part of gameplay.
Secondly, I feel like CPMA and especially Warsow give the player a bit too much freedom. My number one philosophy of game design is "always make sure there's enough of a downside to any given action that there will at least occasionally be a reason for a player to NOT perform that action." That is where depth comes from, and that's what make a game interesting to play for years down the road.
In Vanilla Quake 3 physics, strafe-jumping has a pretty good downside - you can only really build up speed in a straight line, you can't transfer that speed into a new direction (so the amount of speed you can build up is limited by the length of the space you have available), repeated jumping advertises your position to your opponent, and your trajectory through the air is fairly ballistic, meaning it's easy for an opponent to predict your path and hit you. Strafe-jumping therefore becomes situational, you don't want to use it *all* the time, and the decision of whether to use it or not becomes part of the strategy of the game.
Now let's look at CPMA and Warsow... You can take the speed you've build up in one direction and transfer it to a new direction, which means you can just keep building up speed forever. The amount of speed you can build up gives you more of an advantage than the element of stealth would give you, and the amount that you can dodge in the air means you're only marginally easier to hit in the air than on the ground. There is essentially no disadvantage to spending the entire game trying to go as fast as possible. The result is a game that's more fun in terms of sheer action-packed pace, but it loses the depth that attracts the best players and keeps the game fresh after years of play.
Secondly, I feel like CPMA and especially Warsow give the player a bit too much freedom. My number one philosophy of game design is "always make sure there's enough of a downside to any given action that there will at least occasionally be a reason for a player to NOT perform that action." That is where depth comes from, and that's what make a game interesting to play for years down the road.
In Vanilla Quake 3 physics, strafe-jumping has a pretty good downside - you can only really build up speed in a straight line, you can't transfer that speed into a new direction (so the amount of speed you can build up is limited by the length of the space you have available), repeated jumping advertises your position to your opponent, and your trajectory through the air is fairly ballistic, meaning it's easy for an opponent to predict your path and hit you. Strafe-jumping therefore becomes situational, you don't want to use it *all* the time, and the decision of whether to use it or not becomes part of the strategy of the game.
Now let's look at CPMA and Warsow... You can take the speed you've build up in one direction and transfer it to a new direction, which means you can just keep building up speed forever. The amount of speed you can build up gives you more of an advantage than the element of stealth would give you, and the amount that you can dodge in the air means you're only marginally easier to hit in the air than on the ground. There is essentially no disadvantage to spending the entire game trying to go as fast as possible. The result is a game that's more fun in terms of sheer action-packed pace, but it loses the depth that attracts the best players and keeps the game fresh after years of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I miss something. Are you aware of how the aliens work in NS1?
The system I described is already exist on NS alien team, how wouldn't it suit NS we know? It's fine if it doesn't suit NS2, but at least I haven't seen any particular indication of that so far. The key idea was to try to recreate a more inuitive version of NS1 movement with queued jump and more merciful speed management.
As for the downsides: Skulks are such fragile creatures that the sound they make, the lack of cover on the ground and the predictable movement while bhopping are heavy downsides. Nobody is going as fast as possible all round long. Bhop is more used for covering the map and attacking an already distracted marine or simply closing distance once you exit your ambush position. Simply hopping in to an aware marine at max speed is going to get you killed 9 out of 10 times.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 words: Queued Jump.
See Warsow and how they made bhop an integral part of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the queued jump is definitely a big step in right direction.
As for the rest of it, I think the Q3 system is even more inuitive than Warsov's. At least I felt that in Warsov it's still easier to lose speed due to mistakes. On Q3 on the other hand you won't have to worry one bit about unintentionally slowing down until you need to take a corner. I'm fine with almost any system, but if we are looking for the most simple and inuitive system, I think Q3 is the speed management system to go for.
The original post is referring to skulk movement.
Actually I wouldn't mind keeping some form of strafejumping on the marine side, without any means to maintain the speed. It wouldn't really break immersion if the animations were adjusted to make it appear as more of a lunge. On the player's side, the asymmetrical strafe-turning motion already sort of implies that it's done with one leg, so it's not a usual jump and more an extension of running. If needed you could also make it consume stamina from the sprint pool (if it exists) when a marine jumps while moving too far above normal runspeed.
By far the best example I've read on the forums to incorporate a movement mechanic, for marines, was based around the idea of "jump jets." Jump Jets, or Booster Jets, would likely be a researchable technology very low on the Jetpack tech tree. I envision it close to R2D2's jets in looks and function (Skip to 1:25 here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsY7spI834M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsY7spI834M</a> ). This would allow the marines to perform a quick jump powered by small shoe, shin, or leg boosters. The ability's cooldown could be balanced according to whatever UWE feels is right and both the immersion and movement skill camps can be happy.
I doubt we'll see that kind of thing implement in NS2 but I figured I should throw it out there. I think a lot of players who want movement skill are afraid it won't be in NS2 and with UWE remaining silent on the topic we won't really know until alpha.
As people already pointed out, my idea has nothing in particular to do with marine jump mechanics. I simply tried to create a system that directly copies NS1 on gameplay use, but changes the speed management mechanics to something that anyone could understand with reasonable effort. It's in no way even supposed to innovate anything, I just wanted to explore a bit on where the existing branch could go.
So yeah, the point was that I'm trying to create discussion on:
- How the suggested system preserves what we have right now in terms of depth and challenge? Could something even add up to the present positive sides?
- Is the system inuitive enough and what could still be improved on the learning curve?
I think Bhoping should stay in place for the Skulks and Fades but should react in the same fashion as Q3. With NO air control and limited speed ... Cause we all know how ridiculous it is for a Onos to Bhop across the map just as fast as a skulk :S
I also think marines shouldn't have Bhop, but more of a lunge skill to dodge an attack.
Realistically ... I can see both in affect in this game.
Ever tried to melee anyone in Q3 when they are aware you're going to melee? If there's a hop movement, you'll most likely need air control for melee. Otherwise you're getting sidestepped and dodged quite easily. Also, straightlining aliens are ridiculously easy to hit and pretty boring to play compared to the air curving counterparts.
As for the rest of it, I'd rather not go there in this thread. This thread is about creating a movement system that is inuitive enough while still preserving the gameplay depth of original movement. It's not intented for haggling over the movement implementation on specific units all over again.
Air control is garbage and doesn't fit this game.
And to build on the marine ... it should be more of a movement like Unreal Tournament's dodge.
And to build on the marine ... it should be more of a movement like Unreal Tournament's dodge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to ignore my argumentation and then repeat yours like it never got counterargumented.
You're going to need some argumentation for removing air control. It's in the game, it serves the game we know in a brilliant way. Like I said, Q3 styled hop is next to impossible if you're supposed to melee the target, you're simply going to get dodged with such predictable movement. Some landing controlled turning might partitially help in landing melee hits, but it's still extremely predictable, easy to hit and useless when it comes to precise movement that air control allows.
... And once again, we are not discussing about the specific implementation on specific characters. We are discussing whether the system is inuitive and challenging enough. There are plenty of threads for marine/lifeform specific movement discussion.
That's what makes a successful melee frag in Q3 so awesome. It's basically the slam dunk of Quake, a way of saying "I outplayed you so badly that I was able to use a weak and impractical finishing move on you." If melee in Quake was easy, it wouldn't be the awesome frag reel material that it is.
I play a Source Engine mod called Dystopia which features extremely strong melee, people manage to melee each other just fine and don't have to rely on air control tricks to do it. The trick is to get into melee range with enough health to make it work, That means either taking them completely by surprise, or camping a corner or door so they are forced to meet you at melee range. Running at someone across the room with your sword pulled out is suicide.
Same thing with NS, if you are an alien without ranged attacks you shouldn't be meeting the marine in the open. You should be using stealth/flanking tactics and camping corners and doors to move the engagement into melee range.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, straightlining aliens are ridiculously easy to hit and pretty boring to play compared to the air curving counterparts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you need gimmicky movement to make a game fun to play, the problem is not with the movement, it's either with the game or the player.
That's not even relevant. In NS, even with full suite of movement techniques, skulks cannot engage marines of similar skill in frontal attacks. The movement techniques assist just as well in the execution of ambushes and flanking tactics.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1768606:date=Apr 24 2010, 04:27 PM:name=analogy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (analogy @ Apr 24 2010, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you need gimmicky movement to make a game fun to play, the problem is not with the movement, it's either with the game or the player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a claim you can just toss out without support. Why would it be a problem that the game uses movement techniques to add depth to the gameplay?
I would argue that given the heavy reliance of the skulk on movement, it would be odd not to insert some depth into its movement.
I don't want force skulks to outplay everyone badly. You're not going to outplay a decent marine that much right now, you're going to outplay him even less if he knows he's in a huge advantage. Forcing huge outplaing as a default requirement of the default class doesn't sound like a good basis for the gameplay. I'm a huge fan of challenging play, but limiting movement too much just limits the way you can play the class.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you need gimmicky movement to make a game fun to play, the problem is not with the movement, it's either with the game or the player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think you could define the word gimmicky the way you understand it? The way I see it, the mention of gimmicky seems to be misfiring badly for your arguments.
Air curve is not a shiny, easily avaible and executable feature just for the sake of having it. It isn't limited or specially scirpted to support certain cases. It is a funcional (although arcadey) feature in game physics, which works universally in the game world, adds depth, challenge and exact movement control. The way I understand gimmicky, air curve seems to be the exact opposite of it.
Actually, hop without any proper turning method(landing controlled or air controlled) would be far more gimmicky. At that point the hop is there just for the sake of humiliating the opponent (at least according to your post) and having a movement method while it isn't functional in most cases of practical gameplay. It would probably be a smart idea to replace it with sprint if we had to go there.
Except I didn't say that. You said "aliens are boring to play without air control," and I said "if the game needs gimmicky movement to be fun, the problem is not with the movement, it's with the game or the player." Note how I didn't say anything even remotely close to "adding depth to the game through movement is a problem."
There are a lot of different types of "fun" out there, and they all attract different types of people. For instance, there are certain psychological principles that you can rely on human beings reacting to in a certain way. For example, a consistent system of rewards, such as XP, leveling, loot, etc. Farmville is basically every psychological trick in the book wrapped up into once package. Yeah, people have fun playing Farmville. We don't understand those people because we have a far deeper and richer sort of fun in the games we play.
So then there's movement... Yeah, there's a certain visceral joy in moving really really fast. I'll admit I've spent my share of time in Warsow bouncing around and seeing how fast I can go... Alone. Then I quit and go play a game that I enjoy competitively. Warsow's movement is "fun," and has its share of depth, but I really don't like the gameplay ramifications of the movement techniques that Warsow allows, and the extremely small fan base it's attracted tells me that most people feel the same way. I have a lot more fun playing Quake 3/Live, because even though the movement is less fun, the limitations of the movement create more tactical depth and create a deeper, more fulfilling kind of fun for me.
Another practical example: I was a level designer on a Source Engine mod called Smashball. For the vast majority of you who will be unfamiliar with it, it's basically a sports game with a ball and two goals, only everyone has guns and can swing around on grappling hooks. Basically, we didn't beta test it very well (or rather, didn't pay enough attention to the couple of our testers who really mastered the movement) and it turned out people could do simply ridiculous things with the grappling hook, to the point where movement became practically the only important skill in the game to the detriment of any other sort of depth. So we attracted a rabid (and extremely tiny) fan base of people who only liked the game because of the ridiculous movement. The game could have actually been considered active for maybe a month at most, with a long tail of about 20 people or so hanging on for another eight. It's a shame because I thought the basic concept had a lot of potential, but the lead designer pretty consistently ignored the advice of the only guy on the team with any experience in organized competitive video gaming (2 years in one of the top clans in Dystopia).
So, tl;dr, what I mean is that if a game is boring without fun movement, adding movement gimmicks isn't going to make the game fundamentally less boring, it will just add a shallow sort of fun that people are going to give up on pretty quickly when they discover their next flavor of the week. TF2 is fun even though the only real skillful movement is in rocket/grenade jumping.
Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by "gimmicky" then, as Bacillus says (also you're mixing up the two of us).
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In response to the rest of your post, let me expand on what I said earlier. Note that Bacillus also made this point in response to your first post, and it went unanswered in both cases.
How familiar are you with NS1 gameplay? It turns out that in NS1, even though skulks can bunnyhop to move 1.7 times run speed and have strong air control, skulk gameplay (at 1 hive) is very much <i>not</i> about moving fast all the time. Because of its fragility, the skulk plays pretty much the same whether or not you can bunnyhop - either way you have to use cover or distractions to close the distance to a marine. In NS1, bunnyhopping ability, much like aim, tends to increase combat prowess without really altering playstyle.
In fact, 2-hive skulk play is much closer to what you describe, with players constantly moving at maximum speed. Much as you claim, I do tend to find this less fulfilling than 1-hive skulk play. However, this arises due to the leap ability, not so much due to bunnyhopping and air control.
This is why I believe you are mistaken when you argue that bunnyhopping and air control will diminish the importance of tactics. In NS1 that simply wasn't the case. If anything I would be more worried about the effect that 1-hive leap (a planned change in NS2) will have on tactics, considering how drastically the second hive altered skulk play in NS.
The primary purpose of this suggestion and the like is to add another skill dimension to skulk play, making it more difficult to master. This is the opposite of shallow, for it is precisely the skill elements that keep people playing the game once the novelty has ended.