Few Questions & Comments

Rehsa · May 2010

<div class="IPBDescription">Mapping, Textures, Props/FloorMods</div>Hello everyone!

So, I am working on a map and finding myself a little underwhelmed by the options currently available and many questions that seem to pile up. Now I know they have only so far released a texture pack for their Refinery level, which is pretty cool, but a little lacking in some regard. I know this is an alpha, and more will come in time, just a little impatient as many others are. <3 Everything so far!

I've tried creating some nice seamless textures, but the bump maps keep giving me issues. I have unfortunately haven't done any texture creation before, or prop creation, so my knowledge is a little lacking... well, maybe a bit more lacking than I'd like to admit. I've looked at some of the texture original files for the different ones on refinery, and see a lot of colors when opening in Photoshop, but unable to find any key references for the colors, as basic Grey-scale bump mapping doesn't work. Which brings me to one of my many questions, <u><b>is there any neat little tutorial for creating a basic textures for NS2?</b></u> Or, <u><b>are there any texture library or packs available that have been user created?</b></u> I've seen some amazing textures in some screenshots which aren't in the default download, <u><b>is anyone possibly working on a special page in the wiki for user created content which others may download/use?</b></u>

I've been seeing some neat maps posted in the screen shots, and they give some great insight into others peoples design process and extra little details. One thing though, is I am unsure exactly how the commander chair may interpret the different props. I have truss' lining my ceiling and spaced out (I've noticed others using multiple layers of ceiling mods), but are easily visible from the top view, <u><b>will these spaces interrupt the commanders ability to place structures on the floor beneath them? Likewise, having catwalks and walkable vents above/below the normal floor level (for small distances), how will the commander view be able to drop items/structures with the different layers for the small sections? Might us mappers be able to assign a value to these props/levels to be commander see through?</b></u>

I have also found myself loving how there are so many floor and wall mods, it makes the lack of textures very easy to work around. With the floor mods though, <u><b>are commanders going to be able to place structures on top of the floor mods, or just on top of textured spaces? If so, how does the game tell the difference between a ceiling truss, and a floor mod?</b></u> I am trying to see if I should just forget about floor mods in main tech point areas due to building restrictions and make my own floor mods from scratch with the see through grates.

Another note, I am used to mapping for TF2, so this engine is a bit different, but one rule for TF2 mapping was to keep everything bright. From playing NS back in the day, I recall there being mostly lighter maps, with only the little crawl spacing being issues with brightness. <u><b>Any suggestions on how different rooms should be lit? Like RP and TP, hallways, etc?</b></u> I find myself making the maps lighter due to that is how I am used to mapping, but then again, I am not using middle room ambient light, only the wall lights to light up the areas.

I've found myself finally getting used to the tools, and with the lack of a slice tool or a way to destroy the welds between faces (reason why pen tool isn't a slicing tool), I've found myself copying/pasting basic squares and rotating/resizing them. I find it takes me many days to get a room mostly closed off/finished, and a ton of time behind the screen. <u><b>What amount of time are other mappers taking on a room by room basis?</b></u>

I've noticed on a few map screen shots, there are many maps have so many hallways and things which an Onos doesn't look like they'll be able to travel at all, especially near resource points. I can understand secondary passageways, but some main hallways I notice don't even give enough room for an Onos to make a turn the opposite way. <u> <b>Are people making it so Onos can only travel between tech points, and the little Resource points are Onos free zones?</b></u> I see so many neat maps, but I don't see how they can support a full having the third level tech tree from the third tech point if so many areas cannot work with Onos.

Without knowing which abilities come with the different tech levels, I am lead to assume Onos and heavy armor will be in those third level trees. <u><b>Would a max of 4 tech points, and/or limiting the tech levels to a maximum of level 2 be a good fun map?</b></u> This way people wouldn't have to worry about the onos size and hallway size for them which was the point I made in the previous paragraph.

I believe I shall leave my post here, it's most likely too long for many people anyways, which is why I underlined the question segments. I am sure I have more questions/concerns etc, but these are the main ones which speak out at the moment.

Braw · May 2010

Hi Rehsa! A Lot of questions I must say, I'll try to help you out with a couple of them :)

First off, textures. I'd recommend checking out Pipi's wonderfull collection of all sorts of different textures, it can be found here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109405" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=109405</a>
AFAIK that's the only texture pack that's come out of the community so far, but then again I might have missed a post.

For how to create your own texture you could have a look at this Youtube video (more of a how to get them into NS2 then a Photoshop guide):
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbF9HGYHQYc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbF9HGYHQYc</a>

Corridors that overlap will indeed cause problems, and are therefor to be avoided as much as possible. If you have a vent going over a corridor the commander will probably have a hard time dropping anything directly under the vent (although he might be able to do so party because the angle he looks down from ain't like 90 degrees). I'm not 100% sure on this, but I would assume this is how it works (at least it did in the original NS and can't see why it would be different in NS2).

Concerning lighting you would want the marine side of the map to be properly lit, although that does not mean you can't have some dark corners here and there. It feels natural to make the alien side a bit darker to give them the edge. Anyways, solid contrasts are always good.

Seems like some of the mappers here spend little time on the rooms, even though they turn out great. I guess they are just that effective :P Personally though I too seem to spend a ton of time on each room, although I am fairly comfortable with the tools by now.

As to the subject of limiting the number of tech points to 4 I don't think that's the best idea, but then again, that's just a personal guess. If I where to make a small map made for intense game I would rather put down 5 tech points, so that the teams would have to battle for level 3 tech, maybe a double res node to balance things out? Be sure not to go overboard with the RT-count if you decide to do so though, the RT/TP-ratio should probably remain fairly constant.

Rehsa · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>First off, textures. I'd recommend checking out Pipi's wonderfull collection of all sorts of different textures, it can be found here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109405" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=109405</a>
AFAIK that's the only texture pack that's come out of the community so far, but then again I might have missed a post.</div>

Thanks, I somehow didn't catch this is my forum browsing and searching the forums. THanks a bunch, should give me MANY more options.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>For how to create your own texture you could have a look at this Youtube video (more of a how to get them into NS2 then a Photoshop guide):
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbF9HGYHQYc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbF9HGYHQYc</a></div>

I have more of an issue with the bump files for proper reflection when lit, as without a good bump file, I see a very bad glare on the texture. That is where I am getting held up. But thanks for that video, ^_^

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Corridors that overlap will indeed cause problems, and are therefor to be avoided as much as possible. If you have a vent going over a corridor the commander will probably have a hard time dropping anything directly under the vent (although he might be able to do so party because the angle he looks down from ain't like 90 degrees). I'm not 100% sure on this, but I would assume this is how it works (at least it did in the original NS and can't see why it would be different in NS2).</div>

Corridors I don't expect to overlap too much, vents/main rooms that is... but my concern is how sky props and ceiling props which are viewed from the top down view, might interfere with possibly dropping things from the commander view. Props that are suspended from the ceiling should be avoid or not is a bit of a concern, plus the building on floormod props too, or only building on textured surfaces and no props.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Concerning lighting you would want the marine side of the map to be properly lit, although that does not mean you can't have some dark corners here and there. It feels natural to make the alien side a bit darker to give them the edge. Anyways, solid contrasts are always good.

Seems like some of the mappers here spend little time on the rooms, even though they turn out great. I guess they are just that effective :P Personally though I too seem to spend a ton of time on each room, although I am fairly comfortable with the tools by now.</div>

Thanks for your input.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As to the subject of limiting the number of tech points to 4 I don't think that's the best idea, but then again, that's just a personal guess. If I where to make a small map made for intense game I would rather put down 5 tech points, so that the teams would have to battle for level 3 tech, maybe a double res node to balance things out? Be sure not to go overboard with the RT-count if you decide to do so though, the RT/TP-ratio should probably remain fairly constant.</div>

Well, my my reason for asking, was from the screenshots I see of other peoples maps, and so many places where an Onos couldn't go, when you think they should have access to that area. If these maps are limiting the movement ability of the Onos so much, wouldn't it seem kinda expected that you might limit the tech levels/trees or remoe the onos/heavy armor in these specific maps to compensate for the possible overlook of the map design?

Thank you very much for your response. Time to get back to mapping. :3

SgtBarlow · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rehsa @ May 2 2010, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I have more of an issue with the bump files for proper reflection when lit, as without a good bump file, I see a very bad glare on the texture. That is where I am getting held up. But thanks for that video, ^_^</div>

The thing is real sensetive, the image has to be very very dark. Reduce the white a lot. Whatver parts are dark gray now they should become 95/100% black.

Pipi · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rehsa @ May 2 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I have more of an issue with the bump files for proper reflection when lit, as without a good bump file, I see a very bad glare on the texture. That is where I am getting held up. But thanks for that video, ^_^</div>

Bump map or Specular map?

Bump map uses normal mapping.
What you are talking about is the specular map I assume. You'll want this map at low white levels (like Barlow said, around 50/255 in photoshop) and in the Alpha channel of your diffuse map (the main texture). I believe that the glare you are talking about is the presence of an Alpha channel in your specular map. If you have a separate specular map file, make sure there is no alpha channel, because it is the gloss map (if I'm not mistaken). You should not use a separate file for the specular map anyways, for any materials, only goes well with models (props).

Hope that helps, and hope you enjoy my texture pack. :)

Rehsa · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pipi @ May 2 2010, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Bump map or Specular map?

Bump map uses normal mapping.
What you are talking about is the specular map I assume. You'll want this map at low white levels (like Barlow said, around 50/255 in photoshop) and in the Alpha channel of your diffuse map (the main texture). I believe that the glare you are talking about is the presence of an Alpha channel in your specular map. If you have a separate specular map file, make sure there is no alpha channel, because it is the gloss map (if I'm not mistaken). You should not use a separate file for the specular map anyways, for any materials, only goes well with models (props).

Hope that helps, and hope you enjoy my texture pack. :)</div>

After reading your explanation a few times, I realized... I didn't bother creating an alpha channel at all... once I removed the straight white one, and properly created my own, glare be gone. Still need to work on actually making a bump file now. But yes, you both kinda nailed down my oversight.

As for the texture pack, I will delve into it a bit more through the week, but already loving a few in there.

The thing I was looking for was a Diamond Metal Flooring texture, which wasn't in the pack, but that is what I was making, and might hopefully have a completed texture with proper alpha channel and bump map available. It has been a very long day of a few learning experiences.

Thanks for the help.

P.S. On a related Note, Pipi... your sig has now been added to my favorites... going to have to switch between it and Pandora channels to see how my mapping goes.

Insane · May 2010

It will be necessary to place ceiling props and geometry with a certain amount of care in order to make commander mode work. As the game comes together and becomes more sophisticated I expect we'll also add a feature to help with this, but I don't know precisely what it will be. NS1 used an entity called func_seethrough that made objects invisible to the commander.

In a lot of ways the engine doesn't really treat prop geometry any differently from world geometry, so you'll be able to place structures on props.

For lighting, it's worth following a general principle of multiplayer lighting, which is that it should help lead the player around the map. The brightest areas should be the ones you want people to go, whilst locked doors and inaccessible areas should be dim. In terms of overall brightness, the maps should appear dark whilst actually being quite light. This is best achieved by having a relatively bright level of ambient light with high contrast lighting. That way you still get plenty of shadows but nothing is plunged into darkness. As Braw said, it's also a good idea to use lighting to help differentiate the alien and marine sides of the map.

I got Range #1 greyboxed over the space of an evening, and generally speaking detail passes took a couple of evenings for each room. That said, you'd be best served by working at whatever pace you find most comfortable. I tend to avoid having much geometry welded. It takes a little longer to get it built, but it makes it much easier to go back and tweak and edit things.

Onos should be able to access resource node rooms. With the exception of secondary hallways and vents, there shouldn't be any places an Onos can't fit.

Hope this is helpful!

Rehsa · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It will be necessary to place ceiling props and geometry with a certain amount of care in order to make commander mode work. As the game comes together and becomes more sophisticated I expect we'll also add a feature to help with this, but I don't know precisely what it will be. NS1 used an entity called func_seethrough that made objects invisible to the commander.</div>

Thank you for this. a func seethrough would be a great addition, but of course what exactly will be used if anything is still unknown. Hopefully something like this comes out and props/faces can have the field manually added or default set to 0 so it's not see through. Right now, in bigger rooms I have trusses lining the ceiling texture, but the truss' are easily in the way from the top view. Removing the truss' will cause the ceiling to look quite bare. I could replace the ceiling with wallprop14 or whatever, the blank looking white wall, but it still looks like magic is supporting the ceiling. ^_^

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In a lot of ways the engine doesn't really treat prop geometry any differently from world geometry, so you'll be able to place structures on props.</div>

Thanks for clarifying.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>For lighting, it's worth following a general principle of multiplayer lighting, which is that it should help lead the player around the map. The brightest areas should be the ones you want people to go, whilst locked doors and inaccessible areas should be dim. In terms of overall brightness, the maps should appear dark whilst actually being quite light. This is best achieved by having a relatively bright level of ambient light with high contrast lighting. That way you still get plenty of shadows but nothing is plunged into darkness. As Braw said, it's also a good idea to use lighting to help differentiate the alien and marine sides of the map.</div>

I will make sure to keep this in mind. Thanks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I got Range #1 greyboxed over the space of an evening, and generally speaking detail passes took a couple of evenings for each room. That said, you'd be best served by working at whatever pace you find most comfortable. I tend to avoid having much geometry welded. It takes a little longer to get it built, but it makes it much easier to go back and tweak and edit things.</div>

Ok, so I am not alone in my building time and boxing things. I just wasn't sure if somehow people were easily completing a room in 1 evening, I find myself having to tweak so much, 1 room is going to take me about 20 hours of room work time. I believe it's mostly because I find myself having to manually scroll through the props as the keyword I am thinking isn't what the prop is called. Any chance a keyword system on a user basis can be made, so I can assign keywords to a prop so it will search both the file name and keyword for what I am looking for in the prop browser?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Onos should be able to access resource node rooms. With the exception of secondary hallways and vents, there shouldn't be any places an Onos can't fit.</div>

YAY, so quite a few maps I see, an onos has to crouch through 1 door, move for 2 seconds, and crouch through the next door in the hallway should be avoided I assume. Makes no sense to have an onos crouching every 4 seconds. Which is why I only have the 100 height doors on the tech point rooms only, everything else has the bigger doors for easy access.

I do however find myself having issues placing secondary hallways at the moment. I am trying to not have my map have many round about access everywhere with secondary hallways very few will use due to having to be out of the way a bit. Vents are easy enough to place and planned my map around them, but with the onos size, I don't see too many places for secondary hallways unless I make my map about 1.5 or 2x bigger. I don't recall very many maps in NS1 having a secondary hallway an onos couldn't fit through, so maybe that is where my mind is wrapping around the idea. All I really recall were vents and double vents and hallways everything could run through.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Hope this is helpful!</div>

Was very helpful and insightful, thank you very much for this response. I was hoping, but not expecting a Forum mod/team member response, but very happy.

Rehsa · May 2010

new question, figured it would work fine amending this on to the thread.

<u><b>Is there some type of "group" tool?</b></u>
You know, select some different faces/props/etc, then combine them into a group, so when you select 1, they all select and act like 1 thing when moving around or copying etc?? I am making some neat little geometry that I'd like to be able to easily copy/paste around, and possibly do it later on if I find another place that will work, without having to select my 8+object that create my custom entity over and over each time I wish to copy it?

Thanks.

SgtBarlow · May 2010

There are Groups, Aka, Layers.
You cant add geometry to the Layers but you can add enities/lights, props to them. Press F7 to open layers panel.

Create a new layer, select the objects press the tick box to assign the selected objects to the layer.

Selecting the layers does not select the objects, its only good for hiding things at the moment.

Chris0132 · May 2010

For bumpmaps I recommend getting a copy of crazybump, it does really good normal maps right out of the box and you can tweak it easily, it also does specular, displacement, and AO maps.

Rehsa · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ May 6 2010, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>There are Groups, Aka, Layers.
You cant add geometry to the Layers but you can add enities/lights, props to them. Press F7 to open layers panel.

Create a new layer, select the objects press the tick box to assign the selected objects to the layer.

Selecting the layers does not select the objects, its only good for hiding things at the moment.</div>

Yeah, I use plenty of layers already. But I want to group things so they turn into 1 movable object and they all would rotate and scale from a fixed point properly. I did this in hammer a bunch when making my own benches, railings, and other objects. Would be nice to do the same in here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 6 2010, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>For bumpmaps I recommend getting a copy of crazybump, it does really good normal maps right out of the box and you can tweak it easily, it also does specular, displacement, and AO maps.</div>

THe terxtures I was working with, crazy bump failed BIG time. Messed with it for a few hours... but then again, I forgot to create the Alpha channel, so it should work much better now since I actually did a proper Alpha channel... or close to a proper alpha channel.

Mendasp · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ May 6 2010, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>There are Groups, Aka, Layers.
You cant add geometry to the Layers but you can add enities/lights, props to them. Press F7 to open layers panel.</div>

The geometry can be added/hidden in layers, I think the lines weren't getting hidden, though.

BreadMan · May 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ May 3 2010, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>For lighting, it's worth following a general principle of multiplayer lighting, which is that it should help lead the player around the map. The brightest areas should be the ones you want people to go, whilst locked doors and inaccessible areas should be dim. In terms of overall brightness, the maps should appear dark whilst actually being quite light. This is best achieved by having a relatively bright level of ambient light with high contrast lighting. That way you still get plenty of shadows but nothing is plunged into darkness. As Braw said, it's also a good idea to use lighting to help differentiate the alien and marine sides of the map.</div>

Also don't forget that your resource nodes and tech points, being the most important things in a room, should be well lit to help them stand out.