Come to think of it, the LMG doesn't display spare ammo either does it? Plus it just makes sense if an individual gun keeps track of the ammo in it, but not that on the wielders person.
I think the reload sound could be a bit more metallic. Now it somehow reminds me of some old blib from Blakestone 3D. I also think the NS1 has more shotgunlike look, which isn't a bad thing at all. At least I couldn't tell it's a shotgun by looking at a first person screenshot. The wall hit effects could look more badass too, although those probably aren't even close to final yet.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
nice model!
it just makes no sense ;) have you seen where the shells go in? into the barrel. so this leaves like 20% of the barrel to actually shoot. and they don't go elsewhere, because the shells pop out again at the front of the gun. So only the 25% first percent of the gun are actually used....
<!--quoteo(post=1774085:date=Jun 9 2010, 04:49 AM:name=Optikal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Optikal @ Jun 9 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still confused why the shotgun does more damage vs. Armored units. The shotgun is mentioned as an early game weapon to help the marines push out against an unprepared alien front. So why would the shotgun be great against low-tier aliens plus armored aliens? Unless the shotgun is packing explosive bunker buster rounds then it probably shouldn't be good against armor. Keep it intuitive!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's just fine that the reload animation takes a lot of screen space, the skulks have time to jump in and the shotgunner should be aware of what he does, if he has to reload .... this might also lead to some very scary moments: just imagine you reloaded your shotgun and all you see is a skulk leaping at your face :)
nice, but one little question: where does the slugs came from? Out of the armored glove? I am of the opinion, that this looks a little strange. But I think I won't care as soon as I hit the first skluk. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1774098:date=Jun 9 2010, 08:45 AM:name=MarshalTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MarshalTT @ Jun 9 2010, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Remove the reserve ammo counter from the top. 2. Indicate spare ammo on the hud, and only fade in/out when reloading (or pushing reload button). Many games use ammo display this way, and working well. Like in Bad Company 2. 3. Get the ammo indicator lights work. 4. ??? 5. Profit!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^this
Actually, every gun should be this way, imo. How on earth would a display on the gun know how many clips you have in your pocket? Minus the omnipresent nanites, there's really no way for the gun to know. How would the gun know if you pick up ammo from a corpse?
Clip indicator on the gun is fine, though. I love the 6-dot idea on the shotty, especially if aliens can see it as well. I'd also like to see all 6 dots going red when the shotgun is empty. It adds a very visual "oh ######" color to remind a player to reload, and if the red is visible by aliens, it gives an unmistakable cue to charge.
<!--quoteo(post=1774013:date=Jun 9 2010, 04:38 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 9 2010, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, in all honesty this was due to a bit of an oversight on our part. Originally I wanted to have just the ammo indicator lights, to keep it clean and simple, and that's how it is in the concept. It went through the modeling and texturing phase, and then we realized, oops...that lets the player know how many shots they have left in the gun just fine, but doesn't tell them how much reserve ammo they have.
Long story short, we decided the fastest, cheapest, and clearest solution was to add the flip up screen, which is cohesive with all of the other marine guns, which also have ammo readout screens. So, a bit redundant, yes, but functional.
We also are going to look into adjusting the reload animation of the fingers a bit, to make it look a little less "magical" with the shells appearing, or perhaps try to have some more shells in his hand, but quite a few games do just have shells appear out of nowhere like that. The reload needs to be fast, and it would make the animation length too long to have the hand disappear off the screen to get more shells.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to change the reload animation with 2 possibilities.
A "simple" thing would be to add shells on the shotgun design and the hand move near the shell to simulate the pick up.. Another "simple" reload is to keep the current one BUT with the left hand coming out of the screen, like if he was taking shells on the ammo pocket on the marines suit, and reloading one by one the shells (could be a fast hand moves to not slow down the reload time).
I don't think that a human hand can hold 6 shells and reload them one by one (at least not easily or without loosing some on the floor while reloading!)
In the future, all our weapons will weigh 40 lbs and be covered in LED's while offering <i>less</i> functionality than things we have today. Also, we forgot what that second tube is for and just started putting shells straight into the barrel.
*looks closer on the LED screen that pops up on the top of the shotgun*
Is that a see-trough surface I'm looking at ? I thought Sparks didn't handle see-through surfaces rendering at all, which was the only reason we couldn't think about dirty glass, futuristic computer screens and all those things like liquids or slimes in NS2 level design. Has it changed or is it just some weird gameswf exclusive feature ?
<!--quoteo(post=1774173:date=Jun 9 2010, 06:33 PM:name=CXZman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CXZman @ Jun 9 2010, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WAIT A MINUTE...
*looks closer on the LED screen that pops up on the top of the shotgun*
Is that a see-trough surface I'm looking at ? I thought Sparks didn't handle see-through surfaces rendering at all, which was the only reason we couldn't think about dirty glass, futuristic computer screens and all those things like liquids or slimes in NS2 level design. Has it changed or is it just some weird gameswf exclusive feature ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Love the Shotgun guys(the design, the look, the feel) but I am not understanding the reloading sequence. Where is he getting the shells from to reload the weapon? He is pulling shotgun shells out of thin air to reload the weapon or he is a wizard. It just doesnt look good at all. I hope that gets fixed......
<!--quoteo(post=1774173:date=Jun 9 2010, 11:33 PM:name=CXZman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CXZman @ Jun 9 2010, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is that a see-trough surface I'm looking at ? I thought Sparks didn't handle see-through surfaces rendering at all<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The editor had textures with transparency from day 1. Glass and water have other problems.
I haven't read all the posts, just mostly some of the first page (sorry). I dunno if this has been commented yet but...
Don't you think the spread is so minor? Judging from the video, in which the marine was shooting at mid/long distance and the spread was very VERY minor, has no comparison with the spread of the NS1 shotgun, and that kind of spread was fine imo, even though sometimes it seemed a bit too much of a spread. In case you're considering keeping that amount of spread, i think you need to work it out, otherwise the shotgun will be OP and (almost, considering the "damage types") totally replace the "LMG".
Second, well i saw some people asking about the top ammo counter, what's the purpose of it since there are the ammo lights on the side? Well, the screen on top of the weapon shows the TOTAL amount of ammo, while the ammo lights on the side will show the contents of the current cartridge/pack, or at least i think it should serve for that purpose. Personally i LOVE that aspect, having total ammo/ammo shown on the weapons only, having absolutely no need to show it on the screen. I really think you're going in the right direction by doing stuff like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1773985:date=Jun 8 2010, 07:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 8 2010, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please post comments on the topic Natural Selection 2 News Update - The Shotgun here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hrmmm, first off.. very nice, love the sounds and looks awesome! But I'm not to keen about the reload taking up so much of the screen when you are in a battle of say 1 marine vs 2 - 3 aliens, also the reloading seems to take a little long.. ? Can you reload one shot then fire it off fairly fast or is there a delay?
Also, with the lights on the side.. when say the weapon is dropped and a marine is running to pick it up, would he/she be able see the blue lights and possibly count how many shots are in it? or will the gun model be in its 'closed' mode or what ever.
All looks and sounds awesome, just a few little things :) !
I have to agree with MarshalTT's post a while back:
The top ammo counter should be removed and only keeping the original and intuitive dot counter on the side. These lights should as they do now keep track of the remaining loaded shells in the sg. And be visible both to allies and enemies.
The total ammo you're carrying should only be displayed on your holographically projected helmet HUD for all the guns. Makes much more sense for your suit to keep track of that rather than the induvidual guns.
Also about the reloading chamber being so far up the barrell doesn't bother me, this is future tech and there could be a mechanism guiding the shells back into the barrell etc. It looks original and fresh, I mean do we really need the same shotgun reloading mechanism in every single game out there.
Also about solving the magic fingers issue, I say put an easy acces shell holder at the end of the barrell for smoothing up that loading animation. And to avoid having to fill the shell holder after each full loading, perhaps the entire ammo holder would be a cheap disposable item, so you click the whole shell holder loose and reach for your suit to pull up a new fully loaded shell holder and click it in place on the barrell and begin again.
This would certainly look cool imho. and if the visuals are done right, shouldn't detract too much from the appearance of the gun. To demonstrate I made a quick mockup of how it could look. Mind you I skewed the perspective a bit on the shells but best I could do in short time.
To those complaining about putting shells directly into the barrel: it's the future, and in the future <a href="http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/SNelson/ResearchPaper.htm" target="_blank">this is exactly what you do</a> alternativly there could be an inner mechanism which transfers the shells into the other tube (would also explain the additional pumping after reload)
Regarding the overall model: i was hoping for some weapon upgrades like "Shotgun can hold 8 Shells instead of 6", but putting the lights onto the model pretty much limits it to six shots max. (unless it's a binary counter :D ) Also cory mentioned the flip up screen is "cohesive with all of the other marine guns", but from what we know yet (which is pistol, mg and axe) it should really have this display on the slanted side.
By the way, what is the alternative attack? Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that every weapon gets two attack modes?
After watching the video a few times, I have to agree with posters who say the spot where you put new shells into the gun is too far forward on the weapon and does not seem functional at all.
I'm thinking that the spot where you put in more ammo would be in the same area where the six side lights are located. I think that whole section there would open from the top allowing one to add more shells. The shells would then get pushed forward into the lower barrel.
Shells would then be moved into position for the actual barrel automatically after every shot (semi-automatic) and then ejected through side OR from the top piece but still fly to the side.
The other option would be for the entire front half of the weapon to flip open allowing for rapid loading of shells and then the whole thing lock closed. This would be similar to the double barreled shotgun concept.
Regarding the display, I think the side indicators should be moved to the back of the gun to indicate how many shells are in the weapon. The marine HUD would then display number of reserve shells the player has. The idea here is that the weapon should know weapon things (like number of shells inside it) and the player should know player things (like how many shells they are holding on to).
<!--quoteo(post=1774194:date=Jun 10 2010, 12:12 PM:name=Brute)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brute @ Jun 10 2010, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To those complaining about putting shells directly into the barrel: it's the future, and in the future <a href="http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/SNelson/ResearchPaper.htm" target="_blank">this is exactly what you do</a> alternativly there could be an inner mechanism which transfers the shells into the other tube (would also explain the additional pumping after reload)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> metalstorm barrels are pre loaded and reloads consist of changing the barrel not feeding more rounds into it. an inner mechanism unnecessarily complicates the weapon when loading it from the bottom like a normal pump action is simple and works perfectly. but say your inner mechanism loads the rounds into the magazine below the barrel, your mechanism would then have to drag the rounds out of the magazine, push them up and well forward of where you load the rounds, fire the round, extract and then somehow move down drag the next round out of the magazine and repeat the process.
i think they should have stuck with the standard pump action shotgun reload method where you load it from the bottom. they could still use that cool flip open thing although i doubt they'd change it because the current method makes no sense
as for the reload blocking the screen and magic hands. tilt the weapon down and across the body so it doesnt block the screen and the non master hand is closer to the bottom edge of the screen allowing it to go off screen and pick up shells.
The shotgun is looking good besides the redundant LED/counter you've already mentioned. Gameplay wise though, I'd really like to know what's going to happen with the clip nerf and the faster reload (any balance regarding a "slow" reload start animation but quick pellet loading like the old NS). I remember seeing that you wanted to make shotguns less powerful against skulks although still a good weapon, yet the clip nerf doesn't really change the ability for the shotgun to dominate skulks <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns won't absolutely waste skulks but are especially good at more advanced lifeforms and armored structures (Crags).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now, I don't exactly know what's happened because you've realized how weird it'd be to have the shotgun to be effective early and against lategame aliens. So I'm assuming there's going to be a damage nerf or a change in the pellet spread and damage (I guess try to make an inner radius that can do good damage but not 1shot and an outlier pellet that will land in a far arc from the center so only point blank shots 1shot?) but this only make the shotgun a less effective and useful item overall. Are shotguns going to be cheaper overall, or will they get a structure damage buff to end up being a "balanced" weapon for structure killing and alien hunting (HMG/Minigun vs Grenade Launcher/???, assuming the GL will make a comeback)? It seems like the shotgun is more designed for structure killing than alien killing, but I guess that's because the metagame is changing so marines are less dominant early game. It also seems less useful considering the Axe is going to be strong against undefended structures, and generally you won't be wasting ammo/pellets if there's aliens around and even more so since the clip size has been nerfed so that you won't have as many shots.
Comments
Plus it just makes sense if an individual gun keeps track of the ammo in it, but not that on the wielders person.
Okay, two questions - has the "shotgun reload bug" been fixed :D
it just makes no sense ;) have you seen where the shells go in? into the barrel. so this leaves like 20% of the barrel to actually shoot.
and they don't go elsewhere, because the shells pop out again at the front of the gun. So only the 25% first percent of the gun are actually used....
other than that , nice :)
Heh. I just had a silly idea of a shotgun that revolves it's barrel when it reloads.
If the lower tube was the barrel, it'd look good. As-is, the reload looks flat-out physically wrong.
I think you're right.
2. Indicate spare ammo on the hud, and only fade in/out when reloading (or pushing reload button). Many games use ammo display this way, and working well. Like in Bad Company 2.
3. Get the ammo indicator lights work.
4. ???
5. Profit!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^this
Actually, every gun should be this way, imo. How on earth would a display on the gun know how many clips you have in your pocket? Minus the omnipresent nanites, there's really no way for the gun to know. How would the gun know if you pick up ammo from a corpse?
Clip indicator on the gun is fine, though. I love the 6-dot idea on the shotty, especially if aliens can see it as well. I'd also like to see all 6 dots going red when the shotgun is empty. It adds a very visual "oh ######" color to remind a player to reload, and if the red is visible by aliens, it gives an unmistakable cue to charge.
Long story short, we decided the fastest, cheapest, and clearest solution was to add the flip up screen, which is cohesive with all of the other marine guns, which also have ammo readout screens. So, a bit redundant, yes, but functional.
We also are going to look into adjusting the reload animation of the fingers a bit, to make it look a little less "magical" with the shells appearing, or perhaps try to have some more shells in his hand, but quite a few games do just have shells appear out of nowhere like that. The reload needs to be fast, and it would make the animation length too long to have the hand disappear off the screen to get more shells.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to change the reload animation with 2 possibilities.
A "simple" thing would be to add shells on the shotgun design and the hand move near the shell to simulate the pick up..
Another "simple" reload is to keep the current one BUT with the left hand coming out of the screen, like if he was taking shells on the ammo pocket on the marines suit, and reloading one by one the shells (could be a fast hand moves to not slow down the reload time).
I don't think that a human hand can hold 6 shells and reload them one by one (at least not easily or without loosing some on the floor while reloading!)
*looks closer on the LED screen that pops up on the top of the shotgun*
Is that a see-trough surface I'm looking at ? I thought Sparks didn't handle see-through surfaces rendering at all, which was the only reason we couldn't think about dirty glass, futuristic computer screens and all those things like liquids or slimes in NS2 level design. Has it changed or is it just some weird gameswf exclusive feature ?
*looks closer on the LED screen that pops up on the top of the shotgun*
Is that a see-trough surface I'm looking at ? I thought Sparks didn't handle see-through surfaces rendering at all, which was the only reason we couldn't think about dirty glass, futuristic computer screens and all those things like liquids or slimes in NS2 level design. Has it changed or is it just some weird gameswf exclusive feature ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess it was a easter egg reveal, nice spot.
The editor had textures with transparency from day 1. Glass and water have other problems.
The model looks nice but the firing sound effect sounds too heavy for the visual effect.
Don't you think the spread is so minor? Judging from the video, in which the marine was shooting at mid/long distance and the spread was very VERY minor, has no comparison with the spread of the NS1 shotgun, and that kind of spread was fine imo, even though sometimes it seemed a bit too much of a spread. In case you're considering keeping that amount of spread, i think you need to work it out, otherwise the shotgun will be OP and (almost, considering the "damage types") totally replace the "LMG".
Second, well i saw some people asking about the top ammo counter, what's the purpose of it since there are the ammo lights on the side? Well, the screen on top of the weapon shows the TOTAL amount of ammo, while the ammo lights on the side will show the contents of the current cartridge/pack, or at least i think it should serve for that purpose.
Personally i LOVE that aspect, having total ammo/ammo shown on the weapons only, having absolutely no need to show it on the screen. I really think you're going in the right direction by doing stuff like that.
Hrmmm, first off.. very nice, love the sounds and looks awesome! But I'm not to keen about the reload taking up so much of the screen when you are in a battle of say 1 marine vs 2 - 3 aliens, also the reloading seems to take a little long.. ? Can you reload one shot then fire it off fairly fast or is there a delay?
Also, with the lights on the side.. when say the weapon is dropped and a marine is running to pick it up, would he/she be able see the blue lights and possibly count how many shots are in it? or will the gun model be in its 'closed' mode or what ever.
All looks and sounds awesome, just a few little things :) !
Good workz0rz
The top ammo counter should be removed and only keeping the original and intuitive dot counter on the side. These lights should as they do now keep track of the remaining loaded shells in the sg. And be visible both to allies and enemies.
The total ammo you're carrying should only be displayed on your holographically projected helmet HUD for all the guns. Makes much more sense for your suit to keep track of that rather than the induvidual guns.
Also about the reloading chamber being so far up the barrell doesn't bother me, this is future tech and there could be a mechanism guiding the shells back into the barrell etc.
It looks original and fresh, I mean do we really need the same shotgun reloading mechanism in every single game out there.
Also about solving the magic fingers issue, I say put an easy acces shell holder at the end of the barrell for smoothing up that loading animation. And to avoid having to fill the shell holder after each full loading, perhaps the entire ammo holder would be a cheap disposable item, so you click the whole shell holder loose and reach for your suit to pull up a new fully loaded shell holder and click it in place on the barrell and begin again.
This would certainly look cool imho. and if the visuals are done right, shouldn't detract too much from the appearance of the gun. To demonstrate I made a quick mockup of how it could look. Mind you I skewed the perspective a bit on the shells but best I could do in short time.
<img src="http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4850/ns2sgholder.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
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looks awesome
To those complaining about putting shells directly into the barrel:
it's the future, and in the future <a href="http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/SNelson/ResearchPaper.htm" target="_blank">this is exactly what you do</a>
alternativly there could be an inner mechanism which transfers the shells into the other tube (would also explain the additional pumping after reload)
Regarding the overall model: i was hoping for some weapon upgrades like "Shotgun can hold 8 Shells instead of 6", but putting the lights onto the model pretty much limits it to six shots max. (unless it's a binary counter :D )
Also cory mentioned the flip up screen is "cohesive with all of the other marine guns", but from what we know yet (which is pistol, mg and axe) it should really have this display on the slanted side.
By the way, what is the alternative attack? Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that every weapon gets two attack modes?
I'm thinking that the spot where you put in more ammo would be in the same area where the six side lights are located. I think that whole section there would open from the top allowing one to add more shells. The shells would then get pushed forward into the lower barrel.
Shells would then be moved into position for the actual barrel automatically after every shot (semi-automatic) and then ejected through side OR from the top piece but still fly to the side.
The other option would be for the entire front half of the weapon to flip open allowing for rapid loading of shells and then the whole thing lock closed. This would be similar to the double barreled shotgun concept.
Regarding the display, I think the side indicators should be moved to the back of the gun to indicate how many shells are in the weapon. The marine HUD would then display number of reserve shells the player has. The idea here is that the weapon should know weapon things (like number of shells inside it) and the player should know player things (like how many shells they are holding on to).
it's the future, and in the future <a href="http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/SNelson/ResearchPaper.htm" target="_blank">this is exactly what you do</a>
alternativly there could be an inner mechanism which transfers the shells into the other tube (would also explain the additional pumping after reload)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
metalstorm barrels are pre loaded and reloads consist of changing the barrel not feeding more rounds into it. an inner mechanism unnecessarily complicates the weapon when loading it from the bottom like a normal pump action is simple and works perfectly. but say your inner mechanism loads the rounds into the magazine below the barrel, your mechanism would then have to drag the rounds out of the magazine, push them up and well forward of where you load the rounds, fire the round, extract and then somehow move down drag the next round out of the magazine and repeat the process.
i think they should have stuck with the standard pump action shotgun reload method where you load it from the bottom. they could still use that cool flip open thing although i doubt they'd change it because the current method makes no sense
as for the reload blocking the screen and magic hands. tilt the weapon down and across the body so it doesnt block the screen and the non master hand is closer to the bottom edge of the screen allowing it to go off screen and pick up shells.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns won't absolutely waste skulks but are especially good at more advanced lifeforms and armored structures (Crags).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I don't exactly know what's happened because you've realized how weird it'd be to have the shotgun to be effective early and against lategame aliens. So I'm assuming there's going to be a damage nerf or a change in the pellet spread and damage (I guess try to make an inner radius that can do good damage but not 1shot and an outlier pellet that will land in a far arc from the center so only point blank shots 1shot?) but this only make the shotgun a less effective and useful item overall. Are shotguns going to be cheaper overall, or will they get a structure damage buff to end up being a "balanced" weapon for structure killing and alien hunting (HMG/Minigun vs Grenade Launcher/???, assuming the GL will make a comeback)? It seems like the shotgun is more designed for structure killing than alien killing, but I guess that's because the metagame is changing so marines are less dominant early game. It also seems less useful considering the Axe is going to be strong against undefended structures, and generally you won't be wasting ammo/pellets if there's aliens around and even more so since the clip size has been nerfed so that you won't have as many shots.