I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway. And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the RFID idea. Maybe, when you first pick up the shotgun and whenever you pick up ammo for it, there should be some small animation on the shotgun display as the backpack ammo counter increments in steps of 1 quickly, but with varying delays. Even something small such as a blinking LED might be good enough of an indication for some radio communication.
<!--quoteo(post=1775191:date=Jun 17 2010, 03:03 PM:name=Silencer91)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silencer91 @ Jun 17 2010, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the RFID idea. Maybe, when you first pick up the shotgun and whenever you pick up ammo for it, there should be some small animation on the shotgun display as the backpack ammo counter increments in steps of 1 quickly, but with varying delays. Even something small such as a blinking LED might be good enough of an indication for some radio communication.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That sounds pretty cool actually.
I like how usually the mantra on this board is <i>game play > realism</i> but when it comes to the shotgun suddenly everyone is an expert and ZOMG the shotgun doesn't work like the one uncle Bill has.
The question is "what do you think of the shotgun model?" Since how the reload is modeled/animated should have next to no impact on gameplay, I don't see how gameplay > realism even applies to this topic.
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway. And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silencer, please do not troll these forums. I'm going to assume you have played an FPS game before, so you're aware that this has been done since the dawn of time and is not only accepted, but agreed that this is by the far the easiest way to manage ammo in a video game. Also, we are playing a video game. A video game. Please put your gunnut magazines down.
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway. And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The initial sound of the shotgun in this video, seem weak for a shotgun, but OMG it seems perfect for the simple little hand gun !!
You say that the little gun will have pierce armor damage ? and you want newbies to know it by instinct ? Well put this SG sound to the gun, and u will have it. Plus : an extra ###### for player when using it.
<!--quoteo(post=1775256:date=Jun 18 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Jun 18 2010, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Silencer, please do not troll these forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am not trolling this forum. The one who dragged a serious discussion onto a shallow-minded level to ridicule my opinion and win the argument was you.
@ Various other people supporting the forum bully: It was just a thought. Never did I unleash any caps lock fury nor did I flame. I am sorry if my little smily there misled you into thinking I was being a dumb, immature kid, instead of trying to start the conversation with a smirk.
<!--quoteo(post=1775200:date=Jun 17 2010, 01:33 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 17 2010, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how usually the mantra on this board is <i>game play > realism</i> but when it comes to the shotgun suddenly everyone is an expert and ZOMG the shotgun doesn't work like the one uncle Bill has.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, shrike pretty much stated it full on but where does the inconsistent and poorly planned shotgun tread into the realm of gameplay? It really doesn't take any expertise only common sense, and I'm sure a good handful of people here including myself actually own a shotgun (or 3).
If we're going for a "cool look" but eh functionality second, might as well throw an airsoft gun in there. Nobody here is bashing UW, if you haven't noticed they're heavily oriented on community feedback and every now and again we may catch something like this. I personally am excited as hell for the exoskeleton/heavy reveal- if we get one...
<!--quoteo(post=1775200:date=Jun 17 2010, 04:33 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 17 2010, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how usually the mantra on this board is <i>game play > realism</i> but when it comes to the shotgun suddenly everyone is an expert and ZOMG the shotgun doesn't work like the one uncle Bill has.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh stop being so dismissive. It's not really being that nit-picky. It just.. almost crosses the line where suspension of disbelief breaks down and I gotta stop and ask "...really?" Like a movie where a revolver that clearly only has a cylinder that fits 6 rounds fires 18 times consecutively with no cut or break in the action. Some people don't notice that and it doesn't bother them. Me? Can't stand that. There's just no good reason to do it, it's silly.
And we're facing the dual issues of reloading from the top not making mechanical sense, and it not making practical sense as it takes up too much of the screen. I don't understand how you can disagree that it would be a good change.
I'm not peein in anyone's face by saying this, it's not going to change whether or not the game is fun.. but if there's time to change things, well, change things for the better. and for the record, yeah, i am pretty much an expert opinion when it comes to firearms. some people fired real guns before they used pixelated guns in video games. hidere. i can understand supporting the team from undue criticism, but telling them everything's cool when it could be better isn't actually being supportive. We all want to see them put out the best game possible so it succeeds and is awesome.
<!--quoteo(post=1775613:date=Jun 20 2010, 06:18 PM:name=odaeyss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (odaeyss @ Jun 20 2010, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh stop being so dismissive. It's not really being that nit-picky. It just.. almost crosses the line where suspension of disbelief breaks down and I gotta stop and ask "...really?" Like a movie where a revolver that clearly only has a cylinder that fits 6 rounds fires 18 times consecutively with no cut or break in the action. Some people don't notice that and it doesn't bother them. Me? Can't stand that. There's just no good reason to do it, it's silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I generally consider the ability to have people keep fighting a good reason.
It's not really gripping cinema to have the action stop every six shots to show the hero reloading his gun. I watch action movies to see beefy dudes shooting up millions of bad guys while cracking one liners and blowing half the set up, not to see the hero slot bullets into his gun repeatedly.
<!--quoteo(post=1775309:date=Jun 18 2010, 12:58 PM:name=Silencer91)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silencer91 @ Jun 18 2010, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not trolling this forum. The one who dragged a serious discussion onto a shallow-minded level to ridicule my opinion and win the argument was you.
@ Various other people supporting the forum bully: It was just a thought. Never did I unleash any caps lock fury nor did I flame. I am sorry if my little smily there misled you into thinking I was being a dumb, immature kid, instead of trying to start the conversation with a smirk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was a misunderstanding. I didn't think you were a troll, just not thinking. And being belligerently ignorant.
<!--quoteo(post=1775200:date=Jun 18 2010, 06:33 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 18 2010, 06:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how usually the mantra on this board is <i>game play > realism</i> but when it comes to the shotgun suddenly everyone is an expert and ZOMG the shotgun doesn't work like the one uncle Bill has.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You pretty much covered exactly how I feel about all of this talk.
<!--quoteo(post=1775807:date=Jun 22 2010, 09:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 22 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I generally consider the ability to have people keep fighting a good reason.
It's not really gripping cinema to have the action stop every six shots to show the hero reloading his gun. I watch action movies to see beefy dudes shooting up millions of bad guys while cracking one liners and blowing half the set up, not to see the hero slot bullets into his gun repeatedly.
Unless it's clint eastwood, he's allowed to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> so have the hero use a weapon other than a 6 shooter so he doesnt have to reload so often. fit the equipment to the scene and there isnt a problem
<!--quoteo(post=1776212:date=Jun 26 2010, 02:16 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jun 26 2010, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so have the hero use a weapon other than a 6 shooter so he doesnt have to reload so often. fit the equipment to the scene and there isnt a problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't really matter what the gun is, action heroes have unlimited ammo. And god mode. It's just a simple fact of narrative. The reason the main character doesn't die is because the film would be over if they did, you <i>know</i> they are immortal for at least 90% of the movie because otherwise the movie wouldn't exist. Similarly, you <i>know</i> they are not reloading their guns properly and they they don't need to even if they do, because they are powered by action hero magic and their guns don't actually shoot bullets, they shoot magic action hero powers which kills anyone in one hit instantly except the villain who gets a long death scene.
Point is, everything runs on narrative power, games run on gameplay power which is similar, so everything that happens does so because it makes the game fun and balanced, not because it makes sense. It'd be pretty easy for the aliens to run into a ship the the TSA rather intelligently filled full of sentry guns and marines <i>before</i> the aliens even got on board, cue aliens dying constantly as the marines gank them horribly. However while that makes logical sense it doesn't make any gameplay sense, so you don't make a map based around that.
Similarly, you don't have people spend ages reloading guns or make your guns follow absolutely accurate internal mechanics because doing so gets in the way of making your gun metal. You make guns that you want to paint flame decals on and install guitar strings and set on fire while standing on a rock looking over the ocean with a giant bank of loudspeakers behind you playing through the fire and flames while having long hair and wearing leather and throwing the horns with your spare hand.
Basically guns in games are supposed to be awesome, not realistic.
<!--quoteo(post=1775807:date=Jun 22 2010, 07:17 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 22 2010, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not really gripping cinema to have the action stop every six shots to show the hero reloading his gun. I watch action movies to see beefy dudes shooting up millions of bad guys while cracking one liners and blowing half the set up, not to see the hero slot bullets into his gun repeatedly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about not showing reloads, I'm talking about movies where, in a single shot, uncut, gun in plain sight, no question that there was no reloading being done at all. Horror films and action films, though honestly? Action films usually do at least *some* reality-checking. It's usually the (b-or-lower-grade) horror films that'll have the revolver pop out 10-12 consecutive rapid shots. Sorry, but... no, no that doesn't work.
It's not a matter of showing them reloading, it's a matter of insulting my intelligence and stretching the suspension of disbelief *too thinly*.
It's essentially the same as if someone in a movie were to pull out a hunting knife, and suddenly there's a cut to 5 minutes later and he's CUT DOWN A TREE AND BUILT A HOUSE WITH IT.
You can get away with playing fast and loose with ammo counting when it's a full auto -- honestly not many people know how long you can shoot those things, and the gunshots go by too quickly to actually count so the only way is to have been around full-auto gunfire and get a feel for how long a full magazine sounds. but a revolver? It's gonna be 5-7 shots and then it's going to be empty. When you have all those shots being fired in a single uncut shot, and then continue for another 5-7 in that same single uncut shot, you're really just telling your audience "Yeah either I think you're too stupid to notice that this doesn't work, or I just really don't give two damns about my movie".
And that's precisely what the front-loading shotgun strikes me as. There's really no reason for the left hand to be so far forward -- none at all. It obscures too much of the screen, everyone's saying. Well, yeah it is. It's also pretty silly from a mechanical viewpoint. Pull it back towards the gun's receiver and everyone's happy -- how can there be an argument over that? Pretty sure it's actually impossible to think it looks better the way it is. All this talk about barrel-tilting and what not, that uhh. That's completely inane. Really, head-hurting wrongness. That doesn't happen, ever. It's the equivalent of trying to explain away why in Bad_Movie_XYZ why when the hero stops for gas he just throws the pump through the window into the passenger seat. Doesn't insert it or anything, just drops it through the window onto the seat. Sure, you can wave your hands and explain it away (cause the seat totally wicks the gasoline away and the carbot moves it from there into the gas tank! yeah!) but.. really? REALLY? Why do that when you're still at the point in the production of the thing where it can be fixed and fans won't need to come up with lines like that that make them sound stupid for saying them.
Guns are for shooting people, therefore people with guns can shoot people as much as they like.
Knives are for stabbing people and cutting things, therefore someone with a knife can do that as much as they like.
Chainsaws are for cutting down trees, therefore someone with a chainsaw can cut down as many trees as they like.
Medical supplies are for restoring all your HP, therefore someone with a medkit can get back up and fight no matter what injury they sustained.
Heroes and villains are protected by plot armor, injuries are healed by the power of plot convenience, events occur because the plot requires them to, everything in a film is driven by the plot, and you know that, but you ignore it. In games it's driven by the gameplay, and you ignore that too.
While in reality there are obvious issues with all of those, blades dull, bullets run out, and fuel is finite, however movies are not remotely realistic, that's why you watch them, because reality is boring and movies are awesome. Nothing in a movie works if you insist on applying realism to everything, the speech, the timing, the actions which occur, the way you can time travel at will to skip the boring parts, none of it makes sense, but the point is you ignore it.
The only reason you break from the <tool> permits <activity> for <indefinite timespan> mechanic is if doing so is an important plot point, otherwise you don't bother with the details because the details aren't important. The only time you do give details is if it is actually important to do so, because anything which is given details is assumed to be important, the general term for this is conservation of detail.
Maybe the hero gets shot by a special gun that means he has to go through a sub-plot to heal his injury, or maybe he is given a special gun that only works once, or maybe he has to kill a dragon and so needs to get the sword of dragon slaying +5 or whatever. Plot drives the onscreen action, not realism. Ignoring reality says you didn't care about reality but DID care a lot about the plot, not that you didn't care about your movie/game/book/whatever.
If the hero goes to a gas station it is assumed he fills up the car, even if you don't see it, he could if he wanted to therefore he does for all intents and purposes. If the marine has a shotgun and shotgun shells, it is assumed he can reload the shotgun, regardless of whether you see it or if it makes sense. Hell I played a game the other day where the dude apparently reloads his revolvers by spinning them round a lot, doesn't make any sense but I don't care because five minutes ago I crashed a jet fighter into a tank and then parachuted down into another tank and hijacked it, then blew up a bunch more bad guys with my apparently magical ability to control a three man tank by myself. I can do all that because the game runs on awesome.
<!--quoteo(post=1776250:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:04 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 27 2010, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't really matter what the gun is, action heroes have unlimited ammo. And god mode. It's just a simple fact of narrative. The reason the main character doesn't die is because the film would be over if they did, you <i>know</i> they are immortal for at least 90% of the movie because otherwise the movie wouldn't exist. Similarly, you <i>know</i> they are not reloading their guns properly and they they don't need to even if they do, because they are powered by action hero magic and their guns don't actually shoot bullets, they shoot magic action hero powers which kills anyone in one hit instantly except the villain who gets a long death scene.
Point is, everything runs on narrative power, games run on gameplay power which is similar, so everything that happens does so because it makes the game fun and balanced, not because it makes sense. It'd be pretty easy for the aliens to run into a ship the the TSA rather intelligently filled full of sentry guns and marines <i>before</i> the aliens even got on board, cue aliens dying constantly as the marines gank them horribly. However while that makes logical sense it doesn't make any gameplay sense, so you don't make a map based around that.
Similarly, you don't have people spend ages reloading guns or make your guns follow absolutely accurate internal mechanics because doing so gets in the way of making your gun metal. You make guns that you want to paint flame decals on and install guitar strings and set on fire while standing on a rock looking over the ocean with a giant bank of loudspeakers behind you playing through the fire and flames while having long hair and wearing leather and throwing the horns with your spare hand.
Basically guns in games are supposed to be awesome, not realistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Attention to detail makes movies more enjoyable for me. Action movies will never be 100% realistic, but if they can make the situation seem believable, then thats good enough for me. Firing 20 rounds from a revolver without even a hint of reloading ruins movies for me just as poor weapon mechanics on real world weapons (or those based on real world weapons) in games bothers me. It comes down to attention to detail and the level of detail affects the level of immersion.
All this discussion is very nice and most of it accurate but Loey hit the point on the head, if immersion is broken then the attention to detail is too low. How much detail you want above that is a matter of personal taste.
<!--quoteo(post=1776250:date=Jun 26 2010, 03:04 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 26 2010, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Similarly, you don't have people spend ages reloading guns or make your guns follow absolutely accurate internal mechanics because doing so gets in the way of making your gun metal ... Basically guns in games are supposed to be awesome, not realistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess the problem I've got (and the problem that a lot of other seem to have) is that when I look at the shotgun, the blatant mechanical issues are the only thing that prevent it from being awesome. I like the overall design of the model, including the pop-out tube mag... I just don't like the part where that tube mag is actually the barrel and the "tube mag" part of the model doesn't seem to do anything except make it bulky and heavy. It's pretty jarring to the overall awesomeness of the model; it ruins it for me, and a bunch of other people. Hell, even the top-load mechanism is fine and interesting... I just don't want to see the fire coming out of the same tube you just stuffed shells into, because what some people call "pedantic realism" I call "immersion-breaking modeling choice that could have easily been avoided." It's not going to horribly break the game or drastically change the model to change that.
If you want to put it in metal terms, some of us are able to hear that the bassist is out of tune. While others may rock out to the same music, there's a bunch of people who wish that the bassist would just tune his instrument. If he would, everyone could happily rock out together.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited June 2010
Personally, I'd be for replacing the flip-up display with a segmented bar graph on the back. One green (or blue) bar for each full reload left in inventory, and flash the last bar when you have less than a full reload (but more than zero) in stock. Add a bit of tension and uncertainty when ammo gets tight. Keep the pips on the side for rounds in magazine... still perfectly readable, understandable completely language-neutrally, and more importantly estimatable at a glance. 'About half my shots left', or 'crap, scraping the bottom of the barrel!' without having to parse numbers. Maybe swap the blue to a red strikethrough (|X|) box when inventory is exhausted.
I'd go for keeping the loading mechanism on top, just shifting it back to just about where the flip up display is now, possibly a bit longer (pivoting the entire magazine up). Then swap the muzzleflash to the lower barrel, badabing. Could even keep the front flip-up bit for a single shot alt fire... a magnesium flare, second cartridge (for a single shot of double barrel action) or something along those lines.
Have to agree with many on the firing sound as well. It's deep and authoritative, but sounds like an M-80 going off in a storm drain. All BOOM, no BLAM... I'd more expect to hear that from a GL round going off.
Reloading, I could see three rounds held in the hand and fed in one at a time, a pause to grab more, then three more rounds (in the case of a full reload). Dropping any that wouldn't fit in the weapon (or if quickfired if surprised while reloading) would provide a decision... 'lose' the extra cartridge (or two) in favor of having a fully loaded weapon... cut down a bit on the people who reload at every opportunity, and again make things a bit more tense. After all, five rounds in the gun would make you really think about if it's worth losing two from your stock just to get off one more shot in the next skirmish.. and when you're low on ammo, sticking with only four rounds ready would be appealing, compared to losing even one more cartridge of an already quickly dwindling supply.
As far as the argument between 6 or 8 shells, 6 should be quite sufficient so long as you are picking your shots, not just spraying wildly, and are using the shotty at medium to short range instead of 'shotgun sniping'. Your partner or fire-team should be able to cover you while you reload. After all, you still aren't Buck Rambo.
I think the flipup display should only show reserve ammo, and the lights show your current amount loaded in the Shotgun.
That way there is continuity between the MG(Rifle) and the Shotgun, in regards to weapon information feedback.
(The MG has about 4 vertical bars to show relative rounds left BTW. GL and Flamethrower attachment have their own ammo counters.)
Also I think the Shotgun should be reloaded 1 shell at a time, just spruce up the animation a bit(even if it means a slower reload; which I think could balance out the Shotgun nice and well).
Comments
<img src="http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1677/howisthispossible.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
How is that possible? >;(
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway.
And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can be easely implemented with RFID in the future
Maybe, when you first pick up the shotgun and whenever you pick up ammo for it, there should be some small animation on the shotgun display as the backpack ammo counter increments in steps of 1 quickly, but with varying delays. Even something small such as a blinking LED might be good enough of an indication for some radio communication.
Maybe, when you first pick up the shotgun and whenever you pick up ammo for it, there should be some small animation on the shotgun display as the backpack ammo counter increments in steps of 1 quickly, but with varying delays. Even something small such as a blinking LED might be good enough of an indication for some radio communication.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds pretty cool actually.
<img src="http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1677/howisthispossible.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
How is that possible? >;(
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway.
And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Silencer, please do not troll these forums.
I'm going to assume you have played an FPS game before, so you're aware that this has been done since the dawn of time and is not only accepted, but agreed that this is by the far the easiest way to manage ammo in a video game.
Also, we are playing a video game.
A video game.
Please put your gunnut magazines down.
<img src="http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1677/howisthispossible.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
How is that possible? >;(
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway.
And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a SCI FI GAME.
Allow me to reiterate my argument.
... SCI FI GAME.
Agreed! If the aliens are going to be at all realistic they would most likely be simple single celled organisms... oh wait.
Only this time the petty humans die of bacteria...
A virus maybe but not a bacteria.
You say that the little gun will have pierce armor damage ? and you want newbies to know it by instinct ?
Well put this SG sound to the gun, and u will have it.
Plus : an extra ###### for player when using it.
I am not trolling this forum. The one who dragged a serious discussion onto a shallow-minded level to ridicule my opinion and win the argument was you.
@ Various other people supporting the forum bully: It was just a thought. Never did I unleash any caps lock fury nor did I flame. I am sorry if my little smily there misled you into thinking I was being a dumb, immature kid, instead of trying to start the conversation with a smirk.
lol, shrike pretty much stated it full on but where does the inconsistent and poorly planned shotgun tread into the realm of gameplay? It really doesn't take any expertise only common sense, and I'm sure a good handful of people here including myself actually own a shotgun (or 3).
If we're going for a "cool look" but eh functionality second, might as well throw an airsoft gun in there. Nobody here is bashing UW, if you haven't noticed they're heavily oriented on community feedback and every now and again we may catch something like this. I personally am excited as hell for the exoskeleton/heavy reveal- if we get one...
Oh stop being so dismissive. It's not really being that nit-picky. It just.. almost crosses the line where suspension of disbelief breaks down and I gotta stop and ask "...really?"
Like a movie where a revolver that clearly only has a cylinder that fits 6 rounds fires 18 times consecutively with no cut or break in the action. Some people don't notice that and it doesn't bother them. Me? Can't stand that. There's just no good reason to do it, it's silly.
And we're facing the dual issues of reloading from the top not making mechanical sense, and it not making practical sense as it takes up too much of the screen.
I don't understand how you can disagree that it would be a good change.
I'm not peein in anyone's face by saying this, it's not going to change whether or not the game is fun.. but if there's time to change things, well, change things for the better.
and for the record, yeah, i am pretty much an expert opinion when it comes to firearms. some people fired real guns before they used pixelated guns in video games. hidere. i can understand supporting the team from undue criticism, but telling them everything's cool when it could be better isn't actually being supportive. We all want to see them put out the best game possible so it succeeds and is awesome.
Like a movie where a revolver that clearly only has a cylinder that fits 6 rounds fires 18 times consecutively with no cut or break in the action. Some people don't notice that and it doesn't bother them. Me? Can't stand that. There's just no good reason to do it, it's silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I generally consider the ability to have people keep fighting a good reason.
It's not really gripping cinema to have the action stop every six shots to show the hero reloading his gun. I watch action movies to see beefy dudes shooting up millions of bad guys while cracking one liners and blowing half the set up, not to see the hero slot bullets into his gun repeatedly.
Unless it's clint eastwood, he's allowed to.
doesn't even look like a shotgun sorry...
@ Various other people supporting the forum bully: It was just a thought. Never did I unleash any caps lock fury nor did I flame. I am sorry if my little smily there misled you into thinking I was being a dumb, immature kid, instead of trying to start the conversation with a smirk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a misunderstanding. I didn't think you were a troll, just not thinking. And being belligerently ignorant.
That's not the case, so I apologize.
You pretty much covered exactly how I feel about all of this talk.
It's not really gripping cinema to have the action stop every six shots to show the hero reloading his gun. I watch action movies to see beefy dudes shooting up millions of bad guys while cracking one liners and blowing half the set up, not to see the hero slot bullets into his gun repeatedly.
Unless it's clint eastwood, he's allowed to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so have the hero use a weapon other than a 6 shooter so he doesnt have to reload so often. fit the equipment to the scene and there isnt a problem
Doesn't really matter what the gun is, action heroes have unlimited ammo. And god mode. It's just a simple fact of narrative. The reason the main character doesn't die is because the film would be over if they did, you <i>know</i> they are immortal for at least 90% of the movie because otherwise the movie wouldn't exist. Similarly, you <i>know</i> they are not reloading their guns properly and they they don't need to even if they do, because they are powered by action hero magic and their guns don't actually shoot bullets, they shoot magic action hero powers which kills anyone in one hit instantly except the villain who gets a long death scene.
Point is, everything runs on narrative power, games run on gameplay power which is similar, so everything that happens does so because it makes the game fun and balanced, not because it makes sense. It'd be pretty easy for the aliens to run into a ship the the TSA rather intelligently filled full of sentry guns and marines <i>before</i> the aliens even got on board, cue aliens dying constantly as the marines gank them horribly. However while that makes logical sense it doesn't make any gameplay sense, so you don't make a map based around that.
Similarly, you don't have people spend ages reloading guns or make your guns follow absolutely accurate internal mechanics because doing so gets in the way of making your gun metal. You make guns that you want to paint flame decals on and install guitar strings and set on fire while standing on a rock looking over the ocean with a giant bank of loudspeakers behind you playing through the fire and flames while having long hair and wearing leather and throwing the horns with your spare hand.
Basically guns in games are supposed to be awesome, not realistic.
I'm not talking about not showing reloads, I'm talking about movies where, in a single shot, uncut, gun in plain sight, no question that there was no reloading being done at all.
Horror films and action films, though honestly? Action films usually do at least *some* reality-checking. It's usually the (b-or-lower-grade) horror films that'll have the revolver pop out 10-12 consecutive rapid shots. Sorry, but... no, no that doesn't work.
It's not a matter of showing them reloading, it's a matter of insulting my intelligence and stretching the suspension of disbelief *too thinly*.
It's essentially the same as if someone in a movie were to pull out a hunting knife, and suddenly there's a cut to 5 minutes later and he's CUT DOWN A TREE AND BUILT A HOUSE WITH IT.
You can get away with playing fast and loose with ammo counting when it's a full auto -- honestly not many people know how long you can shoot those things, and the gunshots go by too quickly to actually count so the only way is to have been around full-auto gunfire and get a feel for how long a full magazine sounds. but a revolver? It's gonna be 5-7 shots and then it's going to be empty. When you have all those shots being fired in a single uncut shot, and then continue for another 5-7 in that same single uncut shot, you're really just telling your audience "Yeah either I think you're too stupid to notice that this doesn't work, or I just really don't give two damns about my movie".
And that's precisely what the front-loading shotgun strikes me as. There's really no reason for the left hand to be so far forward -- none at all. It obscures too much of the screen, everyone's saying. Well, yeah it is. It's also pretty silly from a mechanical viewpoint. Pull it back towards the gun's receiver and everyone's happy -- how can there be an argument over that? Pretty sure it's actually impossible to think it looks better the way it is. All this talk about barrel-tilting and what not, that uhh. That's completely inane. Really, head-hurting wrongness. That doesn't happen, ever. It's the equivalent of trying to explain away why in Bad_Movie_XYZ why when the hero stops for gas he just throws the pump through the window into the passenger seat. Doesn't insert it or anything, just drops it through the window onto the seat. Sure, you can wave your hands and explain it away (cause the seat totally wicks the gasoline away and the carbot moves it from there into the gas tank! yeah!) but.. really? REALLY? Why do that when you're still at the point in the production of the thing where it can be fixed and fans won't need to come up with lines like that that make them sound stupid for saying them.
Knives are for stabbing people and cutting things, therefore someone with a knife can do that as much as they like.
Chainsaws are for cutting down trees, therefore someone with a chainsaw can cut down as many trees as they like.
Medical supplies are for restoring all your HP, therefore someone with a medkit can get back up and fight no matter what injury they sustained.
Heroes and villains are protected by plot armor, injuries are healed by the power of plot convenience, events occur because the plot requires them to, everything in a film is driven by the plot, and you know that, but you ignore it. In games it's driven by the gameplay, and you ignore that too.
While in reality there are obvious issues with all of those, blades dull, bullets run out, and fuel is finite, however movies are not remotely realistic, that's why you watch them, because reality is boring and movies are awesome. Nothing in a movie works if you insist on applying realism to everything, the speech, the timing, the actions which occur, the way you can time travel at will to skip the boring parts, none of it makes sense, but the point is you ignore it.
The only reason you break from the <tool> permits <activity> for <indefinite timespan> mechanic is if doing so is an important plot point, otherwise you don't bother with the details because the details aren't important. The only time you do give details is if it is actually important to do so, because anything which is given details is assumed to be important, the general term for this is conservation of detail.
Maybe the hero gets shot by a special gun that means he has to go through a sub-plot to heal his injury, or maybe he is given a special gun that only works once, or maybe he has to kill a dragon and so needs to get the sword of dragon slaying +5 or whatever. Plot drives the onscreen action, not realism. Ignoring reality says you didn't care about reality but DID care a lot about the plot, not that you didn't care about your movie/game/book/whatever.
If the hero goes to a gas station it is assumed he fills up the car, even if you don't see it, he could if he wanted to therefore he does for all intents and purposes. If the marine has a shotgun and shotgun shells, it is assumed he can reload the shotgun, regardless of whether you see it or if it makes sense. Hell I played a game the other day where the dude apparently reloads his revolvers by spinning them round a lot, doesn't make any sense but I don't care because five minutes ago I crashed a jet fighter into a tank and then parachuted down into another tank and hijacked it, then blew up a bunch more bad guys with my apparently magical ability to control a three man tank by myself. I can do all that because the game runs on awesome.
Point is, everything runs on narrative power, games run on gameplay power which is similar, so everything that happens does so because it makes the game fun and balanced, not because it makes sense. It'd be pretty easy for the aliens to run into a ship the the TSA rather intelligently filled full of sentry guns and marines <i>before</i> the aliens even got on board, cue aliens dying constantly as the marines gank them horribly. However while that makes logical sense it doesn't make any gameplay sense, so you don't make a map based around that.
Similarly, you don't have people spend ages reloading guns or make your guns follow absolutely accurate internal mechanics because doing so gets in the way of making your gun metal. You make guns that you want to paint flame decals on and install guitar strings and set on fire while standing on a rock looking over the ocean with a giant bank of loudspeakers behind you playing through the fire and flames while having long hair and wearing leather and throwing the horns with your spare hand.
Basically guns in games are supposed to be awesome, not realistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Attention to detail makes movies more enjoyable for me. Action movies will never be 100% realistic, but if they can make the situation seem believable, then thats good enough for me. Firing 20 rounds from a revolver without even a hint of reloading ruins movies for me just as poor weapon mechanics on real world weapons (or those based on real world weapons) in games bothers me. It comes down to attention to detail and the level of detail affects the level of immersion.
I guess the problem I've got (and the problem that a lot of other seem to have) is that when I look at the shotgun, the blatant mechanical issues are the only thing that prevent it from being awesome. I like the overall design of the model, including the pop-out tube mag... I just don't like the part where that tube mag is actually the barrel and the "tube mag" part of the model doesn't seem to do anything except make it bulky and heavy. It's pretty jarring to the overall awesomeness of the model; it ruins it for me, and a bunch of other people. Hell, even the top-load mechanism is fine and interesting... I just don't want to see the fire coming out of the same tube you just stuffed shells into, because what some people call "pedantic realism" I call "immersion-breaking modeling choice that could have easily been avoided." It's not going to horribly break the game or drastically change the model to change that.
If you want to put it in metal terms, some of us are able to hear that the bassist is out of tune. While others may rock out to the same music, there's a bunch of people who wish that the bassist would just tune his instrument. If he would, everyone could happily rock out together.
I'd go for keeping the loading mechanism on top, just shifting it back to just about where the flip up display is now, possibly a bit longer (pivoting the entire magazine up). Then swap the muzzleflash to the lower barrel, badabing. Could even keep the front flip-up bit for a single shot alt fire... a magnesium flare, second cartridge (for a single shot of double barrel action) or something along those lines.
Have to agree with many on the firing sound as well. It's deep and authoritative, but sounds like an M-80 going off in a storm drain. All BOOM, no BLAM... I'd more expect to hear that from a GL round going off.
Reloading, I could see three rounds held in the hand and fed in one at a time, a pause to grab more, then three more rounds (in the case of a full reload). Dropping any that wouldn't fit in the weapon (or if quickfired if surprised while reloading) would provide a decision... 'lose' the extra cartridge (or two) in favor of having a fully loaded weapon... cut down a bit on the people who reload at every opportunity, and again make things a bit more tense. After all, five rounds in the gun would make you really think about if it's worth losing two from your stock just to get off one more shot in the next skirmish.. and when you're low on ammo, sticking with only four rounds ready would be appealing, compared to losing even one more cartridge of an already quickly dwindling supply.
As far as the argument between 6 or 8 shells, 6 should be quite sufficient so long as you are picking your shots, not just spraying wildly, and are using the shotty at medium to short range instead of 'shotgun sniping'. Your partner or fire-team should be able to cover you while you reload. After all, you still aren't Buck Rambo.
That way there is continuity between the MG(Rifle) and the Shotgun, in regards to weapon information feedback.
(The MG has about 4 vertical bars to show relative rounds left BTW. GL and Flamethrower attachment have their own ammo counters.)
Also I think the Shotgun should be reloaded 1 shell at a time, just spruce up the animation a bit(even if it means a slower reload; which I think could balance out the Shotgun nice and well).
or atleast blow their corpse through the air :)