Hot-Swappable Upgrades
Renegade.
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">a recipe for dynamic, reactive combat</div>Strategy flows from the commander(s), and it makes sense that they unfold the game through a series of high-level decisions including which upgrades to make available. However, combat at a lower-level should be more dynamic, and this is why I suggest swappable upgrades for alien lifeforms (and marine addons).
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Swappable upgrades<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The ability to change an upgrade mid-lifeform. A gestation period would exist both evolving and de-evolving and a delay between multiple gestations to prevent defence-egging (or instead, have egg hp/armour equal to the current lifeform's).
In NS, going regen fade meant you were a perpetual source of frustration for the marine team early on... until comm dropped SGs and you became little more than a nuisance. This inevitably happens, and unlike the ability to switch weapons, a regen fade essentially stays so unless willing to sink another 50 res. This means carafade becomes the de-facto unless there are two fades or one is early enough to exploit regen. I disliked having to "commit" to an upgrade for an entire lifeform, and for a good fade, often the entire game. It rigidifies the dynamics of combat and locks higher lifeforms into a single style of play.
Hot swapping upgrades would still allow high-level strategy in the form of choice of chambers/tech; however the ability to switch upgrades gives players a continual sense of battlefield effectiveness, unlike the player who has "gambled" incorrectly and is now made to pay for the choice the entire lifeform. The marine parallel for swappable upgrade would be the ability to dismount heavy armour or jetpacks.
It's not a trivial change, and it may need several test runs, but I think if it is made to work, the battlefield in NS will see a healthy burst of new <u><i>reactive</i></u> strategies.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Swappable upgrades<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The ability to change an upgrade mid-lifeform. A gestation period would exist both evolving and de-evolving and a delay between multiple gestations to prevent defence-egging (or instead, have egg hp/armour equal to the current lifeform's).
In NS, going regen fade meant you were a perpetual source of frustration for the marine team early on... until comm dropped SGs and you became little more than a nuisance. This inevitably happens, and unlike the ability to switch weapons, a regen fade essentially stays so unless willing to sink another 50 res. This means carafade becomes the de-facto unless there are two fades or one is early enough to exploit regen. I disliked having to "commit" to an upgrade for an entire lifeform, and for a good fade, often the entire game. It rigidifies the dynamics of combat and locks higher lifeforms into a single style of play.
Hot swapping upgrades would still allow high-level strategy in the form of choice of chambers/tech; however the ability to switch upgrades gives players a continual sense of battlefield effectiveness, unlike the player who has "gambled" incorrectly and is now made to pay for the choice the entire lifeform. The marine parallel for swappable upgrade would be the ability to dismount heavy armour or jetpacks.
It's not a trivial change, and it may need several test runs, but I think if it is made to work, the battlefield in NS will see a healthy burst of new <u><i>reactive</i></u> strategies.
Comments
I personally like the idea of a lifeform having to commit to a loadout, though I would add that if your proposal were to be considered then I think the cost of switching an upgrade should increase in cost each time you do it.
But I agree with puzl on this one.
If this is implemented somehow, it should cost more res than time though, because there is nothing more boring than sitting around changing and gestating upgrades and that's exactly what's going to happen, when the game is balanced around being able to change these upgrades.
Which translates to the duration of the game for higher lifeforms, since they are encouraged to stay alive for as long as possible. Not a very dynamic outcome for even a semi-decent player.
Hard upgrades lead to hard-counters which results in RPS-style strat: SG beats regen, obs beats sens, etc. Swappable upgrades means <i>dynamic</i> counters that will perpetually unfold in the battlefield; to use a buzz-word: complete the cycle of "yumi layers".
Fixed upgrades results in two problematic tendencies we've seen in NS:
1) It frustrates the new player by continually punishing them for a choice that may have appeared optimal at the time it was made. An adren lerk wanting to provide umbra during an assualt later learns otherwise when he is mowed down by jetpacks, and so forth.
2) Veteran players quickly learn that certain upgrades are never to be used with certain lifeforms, unless for purely novel reasons. I can count on one hand the number of silence fades and adren lerks I've seen. I believe permanent upgrades are largely to blame for why we see the same chambers over and over again despite their unchaining in 2.0 If cloak could be freely exchanged for focus, perhaps sens-first wouldn't be only for the brave or stupid.
If this is implemented somehow, it should cost more res than time though, because there is nothing more boring than sitting around changing and gestating upgrades and that's exactly what's going to happen, when the game is balanced around being able to change these upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That could work, possibly cost increasing as 0, 1, 2, 4, etc. But I'd much rather see players with the ability to upgrade without any cost to res. You wouldn't see players constantly doing this because (like now) there is a much higher cost than res associated with gestating: time. 4-5 seconds in NS is a fair bit of time, and players cannot afford to be constantly gestating. If necessary, instead of an increasing res cost, it can be applied to gestation time. This works better because it scales with player skill; a good fade (or any higher life form) will not see a res penalty as any penalty at all.
Or am I missing some reasoning for the increasing cost?
Actually, that works better. Initially I was thinking 1-2 res would not be enough of a penalty for a good player; however a percentage res cost enforces a reasonable limit while rewarding a good player/team by affording more opportunities to adapt (if RFK is dropped for NS2, then the reward will be solely for team res).
I'd prefer it to be somewhat related to lifeform cost or at least lifeform specific. At that point even lower lifeforms have ability to adapt. For example in NS1 terms as a gorge you could move around with cele and switch into more support oriented adren gorge when you want to defend a location. Right now you're often stuck with one specific role, since cele doesn't work as a healstation and adren piggy is just too slow for more active support on the field.
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To comment on other stuff in the thread:
Fades won't cost 50 resources any more.
They'll probably cost something comparable to a JP+HMG or HA+HMG, or 25 resources, since the AComm is handling the resources for the alien team. And they'll have to be researched in some manner of course.
And if an alien dies with a fade, the AComm can just give them a new one (just like JP+HMG).
That's what I think is going to happen, and I like it.
So... 1 or 2 resources per swap sounds fine to me.
I personally like the idea of a lifeform having to commit to a loadout, though I would add that if your proposal were to be considered then I think the cost of switching an upgrade should increase in cost each time you do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tech switches are very fun.
When teams have unchangeable strategies and even <i>know</i> their strategies are static, the game is boring. Pre-conceived Plan E is followed through since the second Team did Action #5. And when the first team does Plan A, the second team is stuck with Action #5.
That's boring, static, and unfun.
More malleability and reactiveness = more fun.
Not too much, of course. But the suggestion is not too much. It's the exact fit for a proposed reactive style option without <i>completely</i> changing game outcome.
However, the possibility of tech switches that completely change the outcome of a game are good in my opinion. They should be risky; require some investment and not come to full power until a couple minutes, and be counterable if the enemy knows the tech switch is coming, but they should exist.
... 1 or 2 resources per swap sounds fine to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, so 10% will work out to about that.
I'm not sure if marine equip will be fully player-controlled, but I'd imagine the compliment for marines would be to allow JP'ers to swap for Heavy/Exo and vice-versa (not sure if the res cost needs adjusting for that though).
first upgrades are free
Resetting your upgrades, start at about the cost of the lifeform, but decreases as the time since that last upgrade reset:
1 minute fade changing upgrades is 40 res
5 minute fade changing upgrades is 15 res
10 minute fade changing upgrades is 5 res
or something similar...
this forces players to pick carefully, makes rapidly changing possible but expensive, make it so you can easily change later if you survive the other teams attempt at a counter.
Meh, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea. If you want a strong late game onos, you should stick to a less lifeform based early game and have the guy save for onos as a skulk. Having too smooth transition removes quite a bit of strategical planning, since the enemy can switch too freely and you lose most of the possible ways to predict the enemy strategy.
Yeah, I think lower lifeforms should still benefit more from the spare res. In NS teams with good teamwork were able to feed skulks instead of hoarding the fades with unusable RFK. It adds a nice teamwork feature and increases lifeform synergy a bit.
Perhaps upgrade-swapping could also be used as a res sink for those guys who always end up with 80 res because they went Fade 7 mins into the game and haven't had a chance to spend any since?
Despite the last hit RFK being a little artificial detail in gameplay, I really love features like that in NS. They leave more space teamwork, situational awarness and thinking. Instead of winning a fight, you could be winning it more through RFK or saved HP and time or some other situational element.
Of course it's not a crucial feature and it's nothing new for NS2, but I'd still hate to see to many such details get forgotten. They keep my brain entertained even though I've played immense amounts of NS during all the years. That's something that makes NS quite special game in my list. In most games the repetetiviness kills my enjoyment at some point. NS, despite all the repetetiviness on certain areas of gameplay, still somehow avoids turning into dull.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps upgrade-swapping could also be used as a res sink for those guys who always end up with 80 res because they went Fade 7 mins into the game and haven't had a chance to spend any since?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that was my thought at least. In NS1 the only thing I really care for is whether I can afford another fade if I happen to get squished. Having at least some more variaition to that would be awesome. The switch wouldn't most likely solve all of it, but I could see it being a part of the solution.
Time is the single most crucial resource in NS.
Draining alien players off their... other resource (see what I did there?) destroys the whole idea behind hot swaps: Quick adaption to the enemy.
What I mean is this:
Marine Commander can research various Upgrades and unlock usable Tech for the Marines. However there will be a stopping point to how far you can research, if you don't control a second and a third Tech Node.
Kharaa the same way. Maybe Fade and Onos are linked to the amount of Hives fully built, maybe not. If they are, then I expect them to bea cheaper in cost.
Also I would expect the Onos to be similarly priced to the NS1 Fade, due to the way it has changed.
What is differen't for the Alien team, is that the Kommander can affect natural stats of all the players on the team globally(sliders) and dynamically.
The Marine team will be, once its researched, you forever have that Upgrade unlocked(unless you lose the Tech Building that enables it).
Pretty simple.
Draining alien players off their... other resource (see what I did there?) destroys the whole idea behind hot swaps: Quick adaption to the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was my initial thinking too, but someone (I think Bacillus) mentioned a cost of a percent of the lifeform which serves as a nice touch to re-emphasize the res game. In NS 3.x aliens never gave much thought to small amounts of res, it was always in 10-15 increments before anything could get done. Adding a very small res cost motivates players to think about the often-neglected res game because now "every little bit counts". The key is to choose a small cost such that hot-swapping is accessible, but that the team with a better res game gets the small advantage of being able to adapt more frequently should the need arise.
This small res spendings could make the game less predictable for the Marine Commander, because usually in NS1 something interesting would happen if Aliens hit the 30 res mark (Lerk) or the 50 res mark (Fade + Hive or Dual Fade) ofcourse there is the +1 to +3 res bonus from kills, but that's something nearly every commander can calculate, or maybe there is a whole different Ress system for Aliens in NS2 so it doesn't matter ...
It's a small aspect but I guess it's worth mentioning.
As for the time resoucre: I'd like to avoid situations where you're forced to spend a lot of time in passive gestation just because it's beneficial for winning the game. It's a little like NS1 res biting is at worst: a dull chore that just needs to be done. However, gestation is still far more passive than any kind of res biting ever has been. Balancing it out with a res cost seems like a more player friendly choise to me.
Strictly speaking the game is about one side having a technological arms race and the other an evolutionary arms race - but it always just FELT like the aliens were rather reactionary in terms of their upgrades.
Thank you for valuable discussion input. I am also tired of every player basically having to use a keyboard and mouse regardless of their team, we need to make that different too!
I still think gestation times should be decently long as a time sacrifice for swapping. Res costs aren't enough if you're trying to adapt to the situation.
Don't get caught up in an NS1 mindset. NS1 particulars have nothing to do with NS2 particulars. So take the question on face value, not thinking about the rest of the (unreleased) (and not even in alpha) game (that we know nothing at all for certain about). This suggestion could be a major factor of the flow of matches, and could definitely be a good sweeping change to NS2 by enhancing game-wide volatility and alien-specific adaptability. Not being a jerk here, just asking an honestly curious question.
Why make the upgrade swaps cost resources? Does anyone have a counter argument against volatility and adaptability?
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The AComm upgrade slider is... probably not part of the game any more. Zero sum global changes are going to short change some players with nerf+buffs combined (EG: AComm upgrades rate of fire at the cost of damage). Some players won't mind the global nerf and will love the global buff (Focus Fade is a prime example; double damage at the cost of rate of fire is perfect for them), whereas others will hate it instead.
I would much rather have the NS1 Marine upgrade system given to the NS2 AComm. Only pluses; no trades. That way every upgrade is a buff instead of a buff+nerf. I can't imagine a single Fade player who wouldn't like a rate of fire buff. But I know of plenty who would hate the rate of fire buff if it came with a damage nerf.
...
I've got more support for this suggestion:
Dying as a skulk to get different upgrades is absolutely retarded. Players shouldn't be taught "stay alive in every circumstance possible.... except when you want better upgrades." They should be taught "always stay alive, Period".
I've got more support for this suggestion:
Dying as a skulk to get different upgrades is absolutely retarded. Players shouldn't be taught "stay alive in every circumstance possible.... except when you want better upgrades." They should be taught "always stay alive, Period".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking about that too: that skulks shouldn't want to die to avoid swap res, and an onos shouldn't be able to go redemp at the drop of a hat outside of MS. I think I have the answer that integrates both solutions:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Swap cost:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:violet--><span style="color:violet"><!--/coloro-->x% lifeform res
y% lifeform gestation time<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
where initial values might be x = 10, y = 50.
This way lower lifeforms (for which upgrades make less impact) can swap more liberaly. Skulks can swap upgrades on the fly without thought to res or much time, while the powerful fades and onii will have to plan slightly ahead. For example, a skulk pack sneaking up to MS with cloak, now wanting to switch to focus before the attack can do so with minimal investment (res cost: 10% of 0 = 0; gestation time: 50% of 7 = 3.5s), while an Onos or fade attempting the same might rethink where and when they do this (res cost: 10% of 40ish? = 4; gestation time: 50% of 30s? = 15s). It keeps the game fresh while respecting the impact of upgrades on each lifeform.
I can imagine scenarios of the sort: "Will the lerk who just flew into that vent emerge 10 seconds later with adren?", "Is the onos who just redemp'd going to come back with regen, or is he waiting on the res?", "That carapace skulk I wounded just rounded the bend and disappeared, did he switch to redemp or is he still lurking about?" Or, "I just saw a few heavies, should I switch to adren for a stompfest? Or will they just swap for jetpacks and chase me down?"