Alien success was <i>too</i> reliant on the individual success of each player. Res for kills, the defensive nature of early game aliens, the entire balance of the game falling on the effectiveness of the Fade and construction of a second Hive. Aliens need to be remodeled to allow for more depth and variance instead of the linear 'make or break' progression of NS1. A commander gives each player <i>room to fail</i>, something which is non-existent in NS1 alien game play.
<!--quoteo(post=1782364:date=Jul 24 2010, 02:03 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Jul 24 2010, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1782364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien success was <i>too</i> reliant on the individual success of each player. Res for kills, the defensive nature of early game aliens, the entire balance of the game falling on the effectiveness of the Fade and construction of a second Hive. Aliens need to be remodeled to allow for more depth and variance instead of the linear 'make or break' progression of NS1. A commander gives each player <i>room to fail</i>, something which is non-existent in NS1 alien game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, a commander gives <i>many</i> players room to fail and one literally none. Also aliens usually had one or two players that could fade. So whether you give many players some room to fail or one player no room to fail, it achieves a similar balance, <b>except</b> we'd all much rather see this balance achieved through the latter asymmetry than by copy-paste commander.
NS1 was balanced for 6v6, which would generally feature 1 early fade and 1 later fade. The 'early' fade was, for the most part, the fulcrum of the <i>entire</i> game for both sides. Eliminating the fade quickly would give the marines the edge, or a successful fade would give the aliens an advantage towards the second hive. The issue was then with the steep learning curve that accompanies the fade.
I'm not going to get into a discussion based on pure conjecture, but the commanders for either faction appear fairly asymmetrical. Furthermore, given the experience the developers have had with the reliance of the NS1 commander, I don't see them making the same mistake again.
Long discussion going on here <_< >_>. I've read the entire thread and i can say;
All you arguements become moot the very second a noob jumps into the alien comm chair. Or if something else happens which i've seen happen often: every marine running away from start and nobody jumping in the CC (can anybody command? *crickets*).
Which i'd expect to happen alot more. Why? History, that's why. NS1 is nearing a decade of age. When it first came out, there where alot less noobs on the internet in general. WoW happened since and casuals are now by far the majority. And there's no way they'll be jumping into the command chair.
The arguements become moot as well as soon as a good player jumps in the comm chair. History again, if this game is at all marketed we can assume the majority in the final will never have played NS1, thus if a veteran jumps in the comm chair while the opposing side has a reasonable comm, the veteran will win no probs.
So in short, the game will be as fun as the people you play with. having an alien commander or no won't make the slightest bit of difference between a game with good teams and a game with bad teams.
You are exaggerating. A team cannot win if they are ###### even if the commander is a "veteran". Why wouldn't a decent commander be able to beat a veteran commander? You are forgetting this isn't just a battle between Commanders, this is a battle between Commanders <i>and</i> his units. They both need to cooperate and both of these types contribute to the success (or downfall) of the team.
The problem regarding noob commanders is sligthly less fatal since there will be multiple commanders in NS2. This could also be fixed with a voteout system or something similar where players could vote the commander out.
Casual players have always been the majority and always will. There just happen to be more now.
<!--quoteo(post=1782364:date=Jul 24 2010, 03:03 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Jul 24 2010, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1782364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien success was <i>too</i> reliant on the individual success of each player. Res for kills, the defensive nature of early game aliens, the entire balance of the game falling on the effectiveness of the Fade and construction of a second Hive. Aliens need to be remodeled to allow for more depth and variance instead of the linear 'make or break' progression of NS1. A commander gives each player <i>room to fail</i>, something which is non-existent in NS1 alien game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1782368:date=Jul 24 2010, 03:14 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Jul 24 2010, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1782368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 was balanced for 6v6, which would generally feature 1 early fade and 1 later fade. The 'early' fade was, for the most part, the fulcrum of the <i>entire</i> game for both sides. Eliminating the fade quickly would give the marines the edge, or a successful fade would give the aliens an advantage towards the second hive. The issue was then with the steep learning curve that accompanies the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fade was merely <u><i>pivotal</i></u> to the alien game, the commander <u><i>was</i></u> the marine game. What I mean by that is a mistake in the former was usually much less costly than the latter; I've come back from many more games with a botched fade, than a botched comm. Yes, the curve is steep with fade, but no more so than comm, so why then is it a good thing to replace two <b>uniquely</b> steep curves with simply one copy-paste curve? I'm sure there will be nuances between the two, but surely you see how it loses distinction and flattens the number of play styles available.
Okay as I said before can't we just wait until monday and play a bit, then come back and either say:
- okay the alien commander feels absolutely like the marine commander => it sucks
or
- hey I didn't expect the experience be so different for both commanders => it rocks
On the other hand we could keep posting here (for years ...) and discussing about the idea of putting in an alien commander. Ofcourse it's a difference if you want to help the devs and talk about the features the commander should have or that he should feel different from the marine commander.
The alien commander is real ! So just live with it, instead of nourishing trolls, because this <a href="http://xkcd.com/406/" target="_blank">approach</a> doesn't work ... but <a href="http://xkcd.com/493/" target="_blank"> this</a> one does.
<!--quoteo(post=1781581:date=Jul 22 2010, 03:10 AM:name=Locane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locane @ Jul 22 2010, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every NS fan I've talked to is sketchy about this alien commander role. I really liked the play styles between marine and aliens being totally different, it was one of the many things that made NS so unique.
I liked the fact that relationships were formed and games were won or lost based on the cohesiveness of your team. Leaders were born on a trial-by-fire basis. Everyone was united by the common goal to win, and losing was a bitter, bitter taste that no one wanted, but made winning so much sweeter.
I liked that there was a complete lack of game endorsed leader on an alien team because anyone could start giving orders and be given the same consideration as anyone else - your words were based on their own merit and your relationship with the person listening. The game didn't interfere with that.
I feel like this alien commander role is going to ruin that and at the same time make aliens more like marines with teeth instead of LMGs. I mean realistically, I'm probably just nervous about something I loved so much getting messed with, but at the same time I feel like my concerns are warranted.
Am I the only one?
For the record, I'm not suggesting it get nixed from the game, nor am I saying that NS2 should be NS1 on Graphic Crack, I'm simply saying how I feel about it and wondering if anyone else feels the same.
--Locane<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rly agree with your post. I feel exactly the same. The fact that aliens didn't have a commander made them feel more like hunters/predators and not colonie of ants commanded by a queen X)....
This is probably my only bad critic againts NS2.... I still hope they remove the alien commander until the final release of the game.
Most of the NS matches I have played usually ended up with "HAY!!, jump in the chair and upgrade the arms lab!!" kinda game with multiple people in and out of the comm chair to accomplish the final goal. Sure it took a while and a rather large ban list to get the player group in our server who could function on the same wavelength to do this.
I feel the alien commander is going to produce allot of RQ's (Rage Quitters).
Rage Quitter Definition: A collection of people who drop connections on purpose when they're about to lose or people who have sent rude messages and/or become overly frustrated with other players stratagies.
Time and playtesting will awnser all!! If it doesn't feel right at start don't panic, especially with earlier builds. I support the fact that they try some different things.
Should it ruin the gameplay and feel I'm sure a different solution will present itself.
Personally, I liked the idea of one team having a commander and one not, just for the fact that it made the gameplay more asymmetrical.
I find asymmetrical gameplay to be the most interesting type of gameplay, and if balanced, makes for a very interesting game. I'd refer people to SWG, Movie Battles 2, and obviously NS1.
Having different gameplay types for two different sides which interact with each other is rather annoying for balancing, but makes for a MUCH more enjoyable game in my opinion.
I am up for trying new things. I'm sure if it stinks they will make appropriate changes. That being said, if the only reason they wanted the Alien team to have a commander was to balance games larger than 6vs6 then why didn't they simply increase the speed which aliens get res when more than 6 players are on the team?
Comments
No, a commander gives <i>many</i> players room to fail and one literally none. Also aliens usually had one or two players that could fade. So whether you give many players some room to fail or one player no room to fail, it achieves a similar balance, <b>except</b> we'd all much rather see this balance achieved through the latter asymmetry than by copy-paste commander.
I'm not going to get into a discussion based on pure conjecture, but the commanders for either faction appear fairly asymmetrical. Furthermore, given the experience the developers have had with the reliance of the NS1 commander, I don't see them making the same mistake again.
I imagine the alien comm drops self building buff chambers and the rine commander drops temp buffs and assembly-required buildings.
All you arguements become moot the very second a noob jumps into the alien comm chair. Or if something else happens which i've seen happen often: every marine running away from start and nobody jumping in the CC (can anybody command? *crickets*).
Which i'd expect to happen alot more. Why? History, that's why. NS1 is nearing a decade of age. When it first came out, there where alot less noobs on the internet in general. WoW happened since and casuals are now by far the majority. And there's no way they'll be jumping into the command chair.
The arguements become moot as well as soon as a good player jumps in the comm chair. History again, if this game is at all marketed we can assume the majority in the final will never have played NS1, thus if a veteran jumps in the comm chair while the opposing side has a reasonable comm, the veteran will win no probs.
So in short, the game will be as fun as the people you play with. having an alien commander or no won't make the slightest bit of difference between a game with good teams and a game with bad teams.
Why wouldn't a decent commander be able to beat a veteran commander? You are forgetting this isn't just a battle between Commanders, this is a battle between Commanders <i>and</i> his units. They both need to cooperate and both of these types contribute to the success (or downfall) of the team.
The problem regarding noob commanders is sligthly less fatal since there will be multiple commanders in NS2. This could also be fixed with a voteout system or something similar where players could vote the commander out.
Casual players have always been the majority and always will. There just happen to be more now.
Well said sir.
The fade was merely <u><i>pivotal</i></u> to the alien game, the commander <u><i>was</i></u> the marine game. What I mean by that is a mistake in the former was usually much less costly than the latter; I've come back from many more games with a botched fade, than a botched comm. Yes, the curve is steep with fade, but no more so than comm, so why then is it a good thing to replace two <b>uniquely</b> steep curves with simply one copy-paste curve? I'm sure there will be nuances between the two, but surely you see how it loses distinction and flattens the number of play styles available.
- okay the alien commander feels absolutely like the marine commander => it sucks
or
- hey I didn't expect the experience be so different for both commanders => it rocks
On the other hand we could keep posting here (for years ...) and discussing about the idea of putting in an alien commander.
Ofcourse it's a difference if you want to help the devs and talk about the features the commander should have or that he should feel different from the marine commander.
The alien commander is real ! So just live with it, instead of nourishing trolls, because this <a href="http://xkcd.com/406/" target="_blank">approach</a> doesn't work ... but <a href="http://xkcd.com/493/" target="_blank"> this</a> one does.
~Summer Glau
I liked the fact that relationships were formed and games were won or lost based on the cohesiveness of your team. Leaders were born on a trial-by-fire basis. Everyone was united by the common goal to win, and losing was a bitter, bitter taste that no one wanted, but made winning so much sweeter.
I liked that there was a complete lack of game endorsed leader on an alien team because anyone could start giving orders and be given the same consideration as anyone else - your words were based on their own merit and your relationship with the person listening. The game didn't interfere with that.
I feel like this alien commander role is going to ruin that and at the same time make aliens more like marines with teeth instead of LMGs. I mean realistically, I'm probably just nervous about something I loved so much getting messed with, but at the same time I feel like my concerns are warranted.
Am I the only one?
For the record, I'm not suggesting it get nixed from the game, nor am I saying that NS2 should be NS1 on Graphic Crack, I'm simply saying how I feel about it and wondering if anyone else feels the same.
--Locane<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rly agree with your post. I feel exactly the same. The fact that aliens didn't have a commander made them feel more like hunters/predators and not colonie of ants commanded by a queen X)....
This is probably my only bad critic againts NS2.... I still hope they remove the alien commander until the final release of the game.
PS: I hardly ever post x).
I personally welcome our new bitey overlords.
(Also, a queen role fits in with the whole hive/scent sight feel that aliens have always had).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
spare some change?...... change
Most of the NS matches I have played usually ended up with "HAY!!, jump in the chair and upgrade the arms lab!!" kinda game with multiple people in and out of the comm chair to accomplish the final goal. Sure it took a while and a rather large ban list to get the player group in our server who could function on the same wavelength to do this.
I feel the alien commander is going to produce allot of RQ's (Rage Quitters).
Rage Quitter Definition: A collection of people who drop connections on purpose when they're about to lose or people who have sent rude messages and/or become overly frustrated with other players stratagies.
If it doesn't feel right at start don't panic, especially with earlier builds. I support the fact that they try some different things.
Should it ruin the gameplay and feel I'm sure a different solution will present itself.
I find asymmetrical gameplay to be the most interesting type of gameplay, and if balanced, makes for a very interesting game. I'd refer people to SWG, Movie Battles 2, and obviously NS1.
Having different gameplay types for two different sides which interact with each other is rather annoying for balancing, but makes for a MUCH more enjoyable game in my opinion.
That being said, if the only reason they wanted the Alien team to have a commander was to balance games larger than 6vs6 then why didn't they simply increase the speed which aliens get res when more than 6 players are on the team?