Straw Poll: Marine Building (redo)
spellman23
NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
<div class="IPBDescription">thanks to Align for better poll</div><b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Poll Closed. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110841" target="_blank">See Here</a> for analysis.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
OK, we're gonna try this again since Align figured out a better and more clear way to present this. Please re-vote.
<!--quoteo(post=1791079:date=Aug 3 2010, 11:07 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 3 2010, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I noticed this too, looks like we need programming-like exactness. Maybe this?:
<ol type='1'><li>Only MACs can place and construct buildings [Build150 version]</li><li>MACs can place and construct, marines can help construct</li><li>Commander places buildings, MACs and marines can help construct [NS1 mechanic, MACs acts as backup]</li></ol>
...with additional sub-options that can be mixed and matched:
<ol type='A'><li>Marines must carry some item to help construct</li><li>Commander must research tech before marines can help construct</li><li>Marines can pick up and carry MACs</li><li>Marines build at a different speed than MACs (probably slower)</li><li>MACs can only build within a certain range of command stations [powergrid requirements]</li><li>Commander must research tech before marines can carry MACs</li><li>MACs deploy into a building, Marines build the building.</li><li>Marines can only partially build the buildings, a MAC must finish the building.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember, this is for Marines only. It is likely that if Marines can aid in building somehow, it is likely Gorges will too for symmetry. But that's for another topic.
Note that Flayra has weighed in on the subject:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110696&view=findpost&p=1790890" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1790890</a>
This means the current system is NOT set in stone as still open to debate. Please leave discussions of the systems in that thread as well, this thread's main purpose is to get a quick and dirty popularity measurement.
Note if you add any modifier to 1 besides C, that means you actually want 2.
Again, if you have a new option I forgot, post it and I'll add it in.
RESULTS:
1: |||||||||| ||||||||
2: |||
2AB: ||
2ABD: |||
2ACEG: |
2B: |
2CF: |
2D: ||||
3: |||||||||
3A: |
3AB: |
3ABD: |
3ADE: |
3AG: ||
3BE: |
3C: |
3D: |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||
3DE: |||
3E: ||||
3H: |
By raw main choice (no modifiers):
1: |||||||||| ||||||||
2: |||||||||| |||||
3: |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||||
DISCLAIMER: This is in no way even remotely a scientific poll. There is self-selection bias, a small sample size bias, and being influenced by seeing other responses bias. Oh, and the potential for ballot stuffing. This is an experiment to get a handle on people's current thoughts and using the results of this poll to support ANY argument is foolish. At least until I do a write-up in a day or so.
OK, we're gonna try this again since Align figured out a better and more clear way to present this. Please re-vote.
<!--quoteo(post=1791079:date=Aug 3 2010, 11:07 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 3 2010, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I noticed this too, looks like we need programming-like exactness. Maybe this?:
<ol type='1'><li>Only MACs can place and construct buildings [Build150 version]</li><li>MACs can place and construct, marines can help construct</li><li>Commander places buildings, MACs and marines can help construct [NS1 mechanic, MACs acts as backup]</li></ol>
...with additional sub-options that can be mixed and matched:
<ol type='A'><li>Marines must carry some item to help construct</li><li>Commander must research tech before marines can help construct</li><li>Marines can pick up and carry MACs</li><li>Marines build at a different speed than MACs (probably slower)</li><li>MACs can only build within a certain range of command stations [powergrid requirements]</li><li>Commander must research tech before marines can carry MACs</li><li>MACs deploy into a building, Marines build the building.</li><li>Marines can only partially build the buildings, a MAC must finish the building.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember, this is for Marines only. It is likely that if Marines can aid in building somehow, it is likely Gorges will too for symmetry. But that's for another topic.
Note that Flayra has weighed in on the subject:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110696&view=findpost&p=1790890" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1790890</a>
This means the current system is NOT set in stone as still open to debate. Please leave discussions of the systems in that thread as well, this thread's main purpose is to get a quick and dirty popularity measurement.
Note if you add any modifier to 1 besides C, that means you actually want 2.
Again, if you have a new option I forgot, post it and I'll add it in.
RESULTS:
1: |||||||||| ||||||||
2: |||
2AB: ||
2ABD: |||
2ACEG: |
2B: |
2CF: |
2D: ||||
3: |||||||||
3A: |
3AB: |
3ABD: |
3ADE: |
3AG: ||
3BE: |
3C: |
3D: |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||
3DE: |||
3E: ||||
3H: |
By raw main choice (no modifiers):
1: |||||||||| ||||||||
2: |||||||||| |||||
3: |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||||
DISCLAIMER: This is in no way even remotely a scientific poll. There is self-selection bias, a small sample size bias, and being influenced by seeing other responses bias. Oh, and the potential for ballot stuffing. This is an experiment to get a handle on people's current thoughts and using the results of this poll to support ANY argument is foolish. At least until I do a write-up in a day or so.
Comments
either we should go with the NS1 mechanic (3 D) or separate the building from the FPS section of the game. I honestly think 1 should be given a test, and 3 D a test and see what people prefer.
E: MACs can only build within a certain range of command stations
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: MACs can place and construct, marines can help construct
F: Commander must research tech before marines can carry MACs
C: Marines can pick up and carry MACs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of a valued player/object while moving out. If the MAC worked also (after a tech-upgrade) as a sort of exoskeleton or a morphed kind of "backpack" (simply because carrying that huge thing around does seem a bit silly) for a marine then he'd become something that you must protect if you want to advance, but without the AI that easily could screw things up.
Then for as long as the marine is carrying the exoskeleton, in commanderview that player is treated the same way as a MAC.
I.e he can be selected and be told to build something.
Could possibly add new abilities to the marine while carrying the MAC, such as aggressive welding speed on doors, increased armour or automatic armour-welding on nearby squad-members in addition to the usual marine arsenal (with the exception of sprint, perhaps).
Gameplay: That way the MAC can be used inside the base with ease in the early parts of the game, then after the marines are more powerful with better weapons and they want to advance, they can get the MAC-Exoskeleton tech so they don't have to rely on the MACs pathing and AI when doing a decisive move. Possibly the player carrying the MAC unit can make the push harder to break with supportive abilities.
But then why not go all the way, what about B+A ?
So it would go like this:
B. Commander must research tech, before marines get (whatsoever) item used to construct.
A. Marines must then carry the (Whatsof***ingever) item to help construct ?
~Hades~
EDIT: I really <u>don't</u> get C, if your'e actually going to make MACs pickup able, it would totally brake the idea ? you might as well just have a welder then ?
@Hades: I explained this already.
<!--quoteo(post=1790980:date=Aug 3 2010, 07:45 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Aug 3 2010, 07:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you wouldn't have to hold down the E button, and get bitten in the ass. So the MAC still has a resource cost, and if you die, it still represents a loss in resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You pick it up, you drop it, it becomes active - maybe automatically moving to the nearest ghost building (dropped by the commander) to begin building. It'll remain autonomous thereafter unless picked up again. The marine is always free to proceed with whatever else he needs to do.
A welder means you're holding down a button - it'd be the same as in NS1 where you're just holding down a USE button. All this really does to the current (build150) system, is remove the need for escorting the MAC. It allows for ninja tactics and quick relocations, but doesn't force players into holding down a button to build.
Beginning of the game: MAC only construction
research: Comms can drop ghost buildings which marines or MACs can build.
Marines must buy a build kit to build ghost buildings.
the Commander allocates resources for the team. if you let every player drain the resource pool with no oversight, the strategic role of the commander will be totally nullified.
Or maybe allow the option for the commander to have 'ghost' building phased in using his own personal resource pool. Like 10 plasma or so.
While having the mac be the primary structure spawner. And letting marines build, but single marine being slow, and 5 marines being the speed of a mac.
Beginning of the game: MAC only construction
research: Comms can drop ghost buildings which marines or MACs can build.
Marines must buy a build kit to build ghost buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm with him, except for the build kit part. So only MAC's at the beginning of the game, then with research com can drop buildings which marines and mac's can build (although maybe have marines build a lot slower? Or more like have MAC's build very fast, and marines normal speed).
<!--quoteo(post=1791155:date=Aug 3 2010, 08:26 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Aug 3 2010, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 A B D
the Commander allocates resources for the team. if you let every player drain the resource pool with no oversight, the strategic role of the commander will be totally nullified.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure I understand, how would the marines spend any resources (other than their personal plasma) if the commander is the one placing buildings?
You're a little more hardcore than the average playerbase I think. Are you hardcore enough to enjoy holding down a button to no purpose other than to keep you out of the action, though?
pretty much.....
I'm not gonna watch this thread every second though. I do have a life and am not a bot.
<!--quoteo(post=1791111:date=Aug 3 2010, 11:42 AM:name=TheLord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheLord @ Aug 3 2010, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 E
E: MACs can only build within a certain range of command stations<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't this defeat the purpose of MACs? Oh well.
<!--quoteo(post=1791134:date=Aug 3 2010, 12:05 PM:name=HadesDK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HadesDK @ Aug 3 2010, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But then why not go all the way, what about B+A ?
So it would go like this:
B. Commander must research tech, before marines get (whatsoever) item used to construct.
A. Marines must then carry the (Whatsof***ingever) item to help construct ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like you want 2AB.
<!--quoteo(post=1791153:date=Aug 3 2010, 12:26 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 3 2010, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1ABD
Beginning of the game: MAC only construction
research: Comms can drop ghost buildings which marines or MACs can build.
Marines must buy a build kit to build ghost buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That fits 2ABD, unless I'm missing something. It's just that 2 doesn't kick in until the research.
flamebait 1 removed.
harimau (spelled correctly ?) sorry for misunderstanding you're terrific use of sarcasm.
So.... 1?
So failing that, 2ABD. And I'd even add one more caveat: Marines can't build without a MAC present.
Under no circumstances should marines be able to start construction on something without a MAC present, because the moment you do that you render any strategies around the MAC as redundant aka pointless as a marine who can build is better able to defend itself, has better situational awareness, and and has lower resource, time, and attention costs from the commander. The only reason a commander would bother creating a MAC is so that the marines can rush forward while the MAC builds base.
Remember that this isn't NS1 folks. Marines start with an IP, and the rooms are larger which will give an automatic advantage to marines once the hit-registration is working properly. If there's no focal point that marines have to defend, if the MAC is just something that allows them to all rush as soon as the game starts because they know the base will be built, we'll be lucky to see 5 minute games unless the early aliens are seriously OP.
with the macs can build ghost structure idea
ohh well ns2 is doomed by flamers, trolls and maybe "softcore" guys?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is sarcasm REALLY that hard to make out over the internet? I'm a firm believer in the prospects of internet sarcasm.
But really, though. Either way, you've got two groups:
You've got a <b>dead weight</b>: the player holding the USE key on a building (NS1), or the MAC moving/building (NS2); and you've got the <b>players protecting the dead weight</b>.
At least in the second case you've got +1 players protecting the dead weight. However, you do end up with annoying escort missions, and lack the flexibility of the ninja option.
And that's where the MACPack comes in.
So failing that, 2ABD. And I'd even add one more caveat: Marines can't build without a MAC present.
Under no circumstances should marines be able to start construction on something without a MAC present, because the moment you do that you render any strategies around the MAC as redundant aka pointless as a marine who can build is better able to defend itself, has better situational awareness, and and has lower resource, time, and attention costs from the commander. The only reason a commander would bother creating a MAC is so that the marines can rush forward while the MAC builds base.
Remember that this isn't NS1 folks. Marines start with an IP, and the rooms are larger which will give an automatic advantage to marines once the hit-registration is working properly. If there's no focal point that marines have to defend, if the MAC is just something that allows them to all rush as soon as the game starts because they know the base will be built, we'll be lucky to see 5 minute games unless the early aliens are seriously OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure it is that simple. If there were a commander research option that allowed marines to build, I don't think it would revert to a de facto "marine only building" scenario. The comm would have to assess the situation - are the res spent researching marine building worth it? Will it delay some other more combat-oriented tech that's necessary for the team to prevail? Is the map small enough that MACs can get to the build point without difficulty? Do I want to take away from the firepower of my marine forces by relying on a player to build? In a 6v6 I imagine this would be an extremely hard choice, 1 comm means 5 marines to work with, if 1 is building then you have 20% less firepower. So it would definitely be a tradeoff that isn't automatic, especially depending on how many resources would have to be allocated into opening up that path.
But really, though. Either way, you've got two groups:
You've got a <b>dead weight</b>: the player holding the USE key on a building (NS1), or the MAC moving/building (NS2); and you've got the <b>players protecting the dead weight</b>.
At least in the second case you've got +1 players protecting the dead weight. However, you do end up with annoying escort missions, and lack the flexibility of the ninja option.
And that's where the MACPack comes in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. What.. exactly.. are you going to ninja? Remember, no PG, no Siege Cannon.
2. Assuming there is something to ninja, how does having a commander controlled unit at your side make that impossible?