I attempted to read over what I can within the thread here and I am noticing a similar trend from what I saw in the "Gorge, Floaters, and RT's" thread in I&S. I am pretty much going to be rehashing what I said there.
The main thing I am getting at here is that people feel that Marines should have the option of building structures similar to NS1 with a welder or similar tool in conjunction with the MAC, or in some cases no MAC at all. The main problem I see with this is that, like the "Gorge, Floaters, and RT's" thread, it will unbalance the game play as it will allowing the Marines to build structures without the reliance on the MAC and in turn allow quicker development over the game map regardless of how fast a Marine can build since the Marine can move faster then a MAC can. Similar to how it was suggested Gorges can build RT's, this would allow the Alien team to build much quicker leading to unbalanced game play.
Giving a similar option to the Alien team would make things feel weird. Assuming that the balance option would be that Gorges would play the similar role would also make things unbalanced again since every Marine can build, or if they had a wielder (assuming it would be available at the start of the game). Then you would need to allow Skulks and other Alien creatures the ability to build either threw a upgrade or they start off with it, so everyone does not need to go Gorge to keep pace. This balance of adding game play mechanics could possible get out of control and make certain game play elements feel out of place.
The only suggestion that I saw that would fit and would balance out well is that allowing Marines to build sentry turrets, similar to how Gorges can drop Hydras. Obliviously you can not let every Marine a drop a sentry right off the bat, but you could make a sort of early Armor upgrade that allows placement of sentry or allow it to take up a weapon slot.
Not to pick on Brackhar, it was on the last page and neatly number, but I would like to offer some counter-points to your post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. It will lead to less interaction between the grunts and the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has not from what I have seen. The commander still says "Go, here" or "Oh no this is being attack" or "Follow the MAC please" and there is not any less interaction then their was before in NS1 expect you are just exchanging "Go and defend the Marine building this RT here" to "Go and defend the MAC while it builds the RT here".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. It removes the requirement of player presence for construction, which will alter the ebb and flow of "territory control" in a negative way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It still requires player presence during construction since the MAC needs to be defended. You are defending the MAC now instead of a player.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. It's extremely difficult for a NPC to possibly follow the same "optimal path" through a level that a player could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not know how the "optimal path" is decided but there is not really many decisions for a MAC/Drifter to chose when going to a point. Its a fairly straight path to RT's or where ever the MAC/Drifter needs to go.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. NPCs will likely die to stupid reasons when the commander is distracted, causing frustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not the commanders job to defend a MAC/Drifter. It the grunts job to do that, the only reason a MAC should die is because it was not properly defended by the grunts, or they chose to let it be destroyed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. It removes the "support" role from the game, which many less combat oriented/skilled players loved as a way to still contribute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The support role is still there. The support role is defending the MAC instead of defending a player, not much as changed between NS1 and NS2 on that note beyond the actual object that is being defended.
To summarize, I enjoy the MAC/Drifter game play mechanic a lot since it forces people to make tactical and strategic decisions in where player resources should go, this leads to a more RTS feel overall for NS2 then the more rush and gun game play of NS1. I also enjoyed doing the support role, specially on the Alien team with the Gorge (GOOOOOO!!! BELLY SLIDE!!!!!!!!), when it came to defending the MAC and Drifters because I felt that I was still helping contribute to the teams overall success regardless if I was on the front lines or not.
Were about to make a topic on this on my own when I saw this. Sorry for not reading all 17 pages before posting.
As a NS1 player I was always the one who stayed behind in the beginning of matches to build. And I was more then OK with that. I also loved going far out, beyond the front, setting up gates and so on (PGs are out so I guess something like having to escort an MAC beyond the front wouldn't be an issue anymore).
And I really liked the idea of the MACs when they where introduced. Thought they where more of a repair bot then builder though. I saw the MACs as something for setting up base and building and repairing close to home. Meaning the marines move out at start, at the same time MACs starts building base, and marines build in front. You could also push out with guarded MACs, and build together. The MACs could build at the speed of 2 marines. And also repair at the speed of 2 marines.
I also think the welder could work as the builder tool. Maybe you have to buy it. But should be available from start.
And I think the reason for a lot of people didn't go COM in NS1 is because of the skills needed, pressure and so on. Not because it wasn't fun!
+1 OP
BTW, any plans on dealing with the lack of mic users going COM? It makes a HUGE difference!
this may have been mentioned before, but I like the idea of a "builder class" on the marine side. either the player chooses it and respawns with the ability to build/repair or they pick up a special welding kit at the armory.
this player has less firepower than his other marine buddies but he provides support and the ability to erect forward bases whilst not being limited by AI pathfinding or other miscellaneous errors associated with NPCs. I think most players would gravitate towards the combat "classes" naturally but this would provide a solid support role alternative.
and let's keep it civil guys. all this "holier than thou/i'm smarter than you/you're dumb if you like to hold the 'e' key" bull###### is counterproductive to worthwhile discourse.
p.s. i thought comm'ing was the best part of NS1. i remember a race to the comm chair at the beginning of every ns_map. I think giving the commander a slightly bigger role couldn't hurt but I also don't think the commander role was "broken" or undesirable.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The only time I really see the marines needing to build (and not the bot) is for a phasegate. We know that phasegates will not be in NS2, but there is a replacement, which has not been disclosed yet. So until we know what the PG equivalent is, I can't make a judgement. But I think the MACs should be allowed to build if the room has power (according to the power grid concept), otherwise marines should have to build.
<!--quoteo(post=1791265:date=Aug 3 2010, 02:20 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 3 2010, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only time I really see the marines needing to build (and not the bot) is for a phasegate. We know that phasegates will not be in NS2, but there is a replacement, which has not been disclosed yet. So until we know what the PG equivalent is, I can't make a judgement. But I think the MACs should be allowed to build if the room has power (according to the power grid concept), otherwise marines should have to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Discussion of the IPs getting an upgrade which lets you jump to your squad is currently, in my mind, the most reasonable replacement.
While staring at a building holding "use" for 1/10th of the game isn't a very good mechanic, I think it's a necessary evil for NS/NS2. The amount of depth and fun it added outweighs the boringness of building by a long shot. With MACs/Drifters, you will never have that same feeling of setting up shop outside of an alien hive just praying that no one catches you, panicing when you see a skulk when the building is only 1/2 done, etc. It really involved the players in the strategy.
In regards to marines being able to also build WHILE a MAC is building, that is to say, help the MAC build, but not build on their own, why not have it as a passive skill, where the the more marines there are within a set proximity, the faster the MACS will build.
A solution to the lone MAC happy meal could be an upgrade a little later in the game, similar to the electrified RT from NS1. Doesn't have to do damage to an alien, could just be a cool glowing blue defensive shield kind of thing.
another idea could be that a MAC is needed to begin construction of a building, but once begun, a marine/s can finish it off. could have a kind of leap frog effect. a MAC and 2 rines <i>(lol sounds like a burger order :P)</i> could push out to build, 1 marine stays to finish building while the other continues as escort to next.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yep plz use mac and little alien thingy only for construction in a certain radius of the CC so its just to help the commander to build IN his base. RT , Siege , Phase Gate should be handled by marines. for RolePlay u can say it has some batte...ry autofilled by the CC by electric field or whatever so it cant go too far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think this is a good idea.. why should for example the armory be builded at all? the com could drop it finished..
In NS1 if you are trying to setup a little quiet siege area, is it nice to almost finish a number of offensive structures, & then go back & finish them all at once. completing a turret tends to lead to unwanted entanglements if it starts blasting alien structures right away. better to have a bunch at the ready when the waves come.
I also agree that marines should be able to build with or without the MAC, but much faster if they build alongside it...
I like the idea that there should be some sort of limit imposed on how many can be produced, maybe according to player count? Something else?
Most of all I like the idea of the MAC being a floating swiss army knife...
ex:
Lights for dark areas Maybe a motion detector that pings out to nearby marines A chem dispenser to kill off infestation *maybe* a slow firing, pretty weak weapon for a decree of self defense Build buildings, (slightly faster/slower than a marine?, much faster if aided by marine.)
Mind you, this would be a swiss army knife. It wouldn't be the ideal solution for any of the purposes it's a lot nicer to have one around.
Perhaps have it upgradable...
As far as a means of weak, but present self defense:
Back in the day (1994) there was an epic sci fi shooter for the mac called Marathon (produced by Bungie, ala halo)... There was a part in the game where you activated some 'defense' drones to help fight off the baddies. They had the equivalent of a handgun and were damn near defenseless (read, defenseless defense drones) unless you were there helping them out... just food for thought
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I know that is probably too much to consider given this phase of the alpha, I got a little carried away, but in summation, for many of the reasons mentioned by other members, I really agree that marines should be able to build with or without the drone...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I believe marines should be able to build and many marines building should increase the speed. B-Bots should be there to assist the marines both welding them and if needed repairing resource tower / building them, bots are also valuable scouting device in lower player count games. It would be wrong to say the Bots have minimal presence in the gameplay this way as ways to use are countless.
It is hard to believe that in public players have anymore "reason" to defend builder bots than build resource tower in original NS taking away the build aspect only reinforces this type of thinking and chances are that people run straight to the hive without a second thought. I originally thought build bot was to help people get weldered and building base at the start since these were messy in NS1 public gameplay but removing building as a whole from marines, I cant see the point. Removing interaction with commander and marines (other than medding) seems to have same idea behind them allowing easier public game even if comm is terribad.
More options allow more diversity and should not be left out just "because" it may be pain to balance.
I absolutely love MACs / Drifters and their role in the new NS2 world. I think they should not be removed. They are one of many great changes that says in bold face, "This is not 2002, this is not NS1". That said, their existence should not negate Marine's ability to build structures, and removing that ability from players only serves to limit possible strategies in the weeks, months and years to come.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
edited August 2010
Got it. MACs can do anything but only within the range of the MAC control station. The station can be built by marines, so the mac can do remote duty helping the construction of other bases or whatever, and the marines can still build. The MAC becomes such an important builder, because of its speed, that even though marines can build remote bases the MAC will still be preferred.
Say you were doing a remote seige setup. With that sort of concept, the marines would first plant the mac station and then have him build the necessary support buildings for a remote base (like the new pg device, armory, sentries, etc...).
This also means that commanders will likely have MANY mac stations throughout the map, so they won't have to look around for 1 or 2 and they won't have to move them around so much.
edit- to keep them from being IMBA, though, MACs built at the mac station are expensive and take time while the MACs built back at the CC will be at a discount. So what you could do is build a remote mac station, build a phase within the range of the station, and then send a mac or two through the phase so that when they transport they will still be powered by that remote station.
Maybe one solution could be to force the commander to seperate marines into squads and attaching macs to the squads.. U could also have other forms of automated robots that do other functions like auto welding or something else... When the bot is attached to a squad it randomly picks someone to follow closely.. And when the commander wants to build something The selects the squad number instead of finding the mac and clicking it to show he build menu option on the lower right... Also Could allow marines in a squad with the mac attached to them to purchase some kind of building weapon that let's them help the mac build faster but not that much faster probably like 1/6 of a speed increase per marine.. To balance it out u can force the marines to give up their pistol in order to use the build weapon... To solve the problem of rogue people who don't stay with their squad mates have a sort of radius that they have to stay in to not be kicked out of the squad.. with warning messages about being kicked off the squad when they stray too far from the rest of the squad... I kinda liked the concept of building in ns1 but it was very frustrating being a com with nobody wanting to build cuz they don't want to stay vulnerable.. Giving players a limited option in helping is better than not giving them the option to help at all.. The idea of needing a mac is definatly a good balancing point in base building.. Gives marines a constant objective of keeping the mac alive while moving towards their next waypoint..
Building, team work, interaction, communication, tactics and more. All of them are totally around players.
We still play NS1. I played many games (mostly crack games) may be more then 10k. But this game communicates people. Team work makes fun, different tactics etc. We still play NS1 cuz it is not only depend on your shoot or aim skill. i.e. I have low speed internet so that makes difference while aiming. But on the otherhand I am a good player imao, cuz I build RTs, build PGs, I go to waypoints, I defend RTs etc. Which are mostly not about killer skill but tactically team boosting skills :)
I think NS1 abilities with little changes would be fine be for the start.
Just thought I'd chime in and say that I massively miss being able to build things as a grunt. I loved the tension of trying to finish an outpost before the aliens come, or strategically covering a player while he's building. I strongly dislike the MAC so far, but am willing to understand its a new concept. So far, i really miss the old NS1 of building.
Ideally, I like the concept of having the MAC be an accessory, not a main builder. Like it would be nice to have your marines take a corridor, try to set up seige, and meanwhile, you can sent a MAC on the other side of the map to repair/maintain another outpost of turrets, and slowly build things too (i think MAC's should be 3 times as slow as marines to build things).
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
I always thought the MAC was going to be to help build, not to BE the builder. I thought the purpose was to obsolete the concept of a base b****. Not being able to build defintily takes away from the tension, the connection you as a marine have with your commander, and the number of options available to you as a player. Having the MAC as an option rather than a requirement adds to the depth and strategy of the game. (Free up one more marine to shoot at the cost of buying a MAC and needing to escort it to location)
I have the same worries with the Gorge. Taking away the gorge's importance in terms of RTs, Hive building, and chambers, makes the gorge so much less interesting. The Gorge's role needs to be vital, that's a large part of why everyone loves the gorge so much. It's a weak easily killed thing, but is so important and as a result needs to be protected. So that's why it's important from the other player's perspective. From the gorge's perspective, the same is true as with the marine. Only having one thing you're able to build really limits your options and the entire fun of being a gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1791342:date=Aug 3 2010, 07:36 PM:name=sinbu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sinbu @ Aug 3 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I loved the tension of trying to finish an outpost before the aliens come,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Will still exist, and or heightened with only MAC building.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or strategically covering a player while he's building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As well will still exist, and as well, more commonplace with a MAC builder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I strongly dislike the MAC so far, but am willing to understand its a new concept. So far, i really miss the old NS1 of building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I liked building things. It was cool. But technically you're still building things, it's just a new way. Personally I feel your reasons for disliking it, or at least your reasons for liking player-building aren't valid since they exist with MACs, too. The only difference is they're soulless, and can't think for themselves whether or not they want to do something; and of course are defenseless. The unique thing is that unlike NS1, where every "worker bee" could shoot or build, in order for you to successfully build your outpost, you have a new class of worker to protect. I mean think; in NS1, 5 people in a room means 5 builders, so if one dies, it doesn't matter, the rest can still build things. Now, with MACs, you have one builder, and you have 5 people who'll have to defend that builder, and hope they can before the aliens kill him, or them. But it's great, because if the aliens focus on the marines, then the builder is still building, or if they focus on the MAC, then the marines have an advantage to defending them.
I think there's far more balance with MAC's existing, regardless of it being one less feature that we don't as personal players, get. In the short term, yeah, I'm disheartened cause I liked building things. But in the long run, I think it's a better strategic choice to have MAC's.
Virtually every single reason why marines should be able to build has been covered and dismissed by now. The only thing that is left is that people could build in NS1 and can't in NS2 and genuinely feel like something was taken away from them, when in reality a whole new layer of game play was added.
By the way, just a thought I think we should keep in mind one way or the other - it's not comms that need protection from uncooperative marines, it's marines that need protection from incompetent comms. As frustrating as it is to be a comm with a team that doesn't listen, it's not really even possible to have fun if your comm can't do things quickly enough, and tying him down to his management of the MACs increases the difficulty of his job. In NS1, even a bad comm can be coached by his marines, who can go to nodes or phase spots on their own and simply tell him to drop things. With MACs dropping structures, the marines are completely at the mercy of the comm's RTS skills - if they tell him what to do they still have to wait for his worker to catch up, and they'll be severely handicapped if he can't multitask them well. Maybe we should scrap the idea of MACs building things entirely and come up with less important roles for them, like base repairs and weld points?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Building helped you feel part of the game, this new version. and that mac builder thing someone suggested is making you more distant from whats going on the game. Just watching something rather than being apart of it.
Not 100% true. Sure due to LUA mods we can have whatever we want as a community, but the vanilla (and therefore default) gameplay setting is important and has only 1 value.
Re-posted from Official Twitter thread since I think it'll be read more here
My idea for marine building: MACs should drop the marine structure but both MACs and marines who have equipped a welder from the armory. The commander can also research Phase Tech which allows him to drop structures directly like in NS.
Benefits: In the early game, MACs are the only way to drop structures which means they are very valuable and need to be protected by the marines (which I believe was the intent behind the Build 150 build system). Marines can also individually invest in welders to speed up building allowing for fast expansion strategies.
In the late game, the commander can choose to research Phase Tech, the benefit being that marines can now go behind enemy lines and set up siege bases ect. without having to worry about the fragility of the MACs. The disadvantage would be that it would cost extra resources (initial Phase Tech investment + individual welders investment). So basically you would be trading resources for the security that the structures will be dropped without having to rely on MACs that could easily die en route. This means MACs will still be relevant in the late game as a cheap way to build and weld armor within safe marine territory.
<!--quoteo(post=1791362:date=Aug 3 2010, 05:41 PM:name=trendynoise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (trendynoise @ Aug 3 2010, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if anyone has suggested this, but I've seen it mentioned that people think that "holding e" puts the player in a passive role. While I don't necessarily think that pressing "e" to build a structure makes the marine passive (considering the threat of being attacked), I would like to propose the idea of adding a mini game to building structures that could help the marine build structures faster as well as keep him in an active role.
One aspect from the game Moonbase Alpha by NASA is that when building various equipment instead of it just taking a certain amount of time a player can speed up how long it takes to fix a structure by correctly playing a minigame. Something like this can help players build more efficiently as well as keep them "active" instead of passively just pressing e.
See this video for an example (the video is sped up here but you'll get the idea), <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmAGNTzpINE#t=1m58s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmAGNTzpINE#t=1m58s</a> (mini game at 1:58 seconds)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An then make an upgrade that makes the structures drop built, and then an upgrade that makes structures regen health.
I don't like the idea of having both MAC and marine building, and I say it should be one or the other, period. They've chosen MAC and I'm fine with that. It contains many of the same gameplay elements that people state are reasons for liking Marine-building, and also adds new ones, for the better, I think.
Like I said before, building was awesome and I loved it. But I want to see NS2 in all it's glory, and being different from NS1, not to be NS1 with special graphics.
@ the above, I can't imagine minigames in a fast paced multiplayer FPS/RTS being a great idea at all.
Comments
The main thing I am getting at here is that people feel that Marines should have the option of building structures similar to NS1 with a welder or similar tool in conjunction with the MAC, or in some cases no MAC at all. The main problem I see with this is that, like the "Gorge, Floaters, and RT's" thread, it will unbalance the game play as it will allowing the Marines to build structures without the reliance on the MAC and in turn allow quicker development over the game map regardless of how fast a Marine can build since the Marine can move faster then a MAC can. Similar to how it was suggested Gorges can build RT's, this would allow the Alien team to build much quicker leading to unbalanced game play.
Giving a similar option to the Alien team would make things feel weird. Assuming that the balance option would be that Gorges would play the similar role would also make things unbalanced again since every Marine can build, or if they had a wielder (assuming it would be available at the start of the game). Then you would need to allow Skulks and other Alien creatures the ability to build either threw a upgrade or they start off with it, so everyone does not need to go Gorge to keep pace. This balance of adding game play mechanics could possible get out of control and make certain game play elements feel out of place.
The only suggestion that I saw that would fit and would balance out well is that allowing Marines to build sentry turrets, similar to how Gorges can drop Hydras. Obliviously you can not let every Marine a drop a sentry right off the bat, but you could make a sort of early Armor upgrade that allows placement of sentry or allow it to take up a weapon slot.
Not to pick on Brackhar, it was on the last page and neatly number, but I would like to offer some counter-points to your post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. It will lead to less interaction between the grunts and the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has not from what I have seen. The commander still says "Go, here" or "Oh no this is being attack" or "Follow the MAC please" and there is not any less interaction then their was before in NS1 expect you are just exchanging "Go and defend the Marine building this RT here" to "Go and defend the MAC while it builds the RT here".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. It removes the requirement of player presence for construction, which will alter the ebb and flow of "territory control" in a negative way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It still requires player presence during construction since the MAC needs to be defended. You are defending the MAC now instead of a player.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. It's extremely difficult for a NPC to possibly follow the same "optimal path" through a level that a player could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not know how the "optimal path" is decided but there is not really many decisions for a MAC/Drifter to chose when going to a point. Its a fairly straight path to RT's or where ever the MAC/Drifter needs to go.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. NPCs will likely die to stupid reasons when the commander is distracted, causing frustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not the commanders job to defend a MAC/Drifter. It the grunts job to do that, the only reason a MAC should die is because it was not properly defended by the grunts, or they chose to let it be destroyed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. It removes the "support" role from the game, which many less combat oriented/skilled players loved as a way to still contribute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The support role is still there. The support role is defending the MAC instead of defending a player, not much as changed between NS1 and NS2 on that note beyond the actual object that is being defended.
To summarize, I enjoy the MAC/Drifter game play mechanic a lot since it forces people to make tactical and strategic decisions in where player resources should go, this leads to a more RTS feel overall for NS2 then the more rush and gun game play of NS1. I also enjoyed doing the support role, specially on the Alien team with the Gorge (GOOOOOO!!! BELLY SLIDE!!!!!!!!), when it came to defending the MAC and Drifters because I felt that I was still helping contribute to the teams overall success regardless if I was on the front lines or not.
As a NS1 player I was always the one who stayed behind in the beginning of matches to build. And I was more then OK with that. I also loved going far out, beyond the front, setting up gates and so on (PGs are out so I guess something like having to escort an MAC beyond the front wouldn't be an issue anymore).
And I really liked the idea of the MACs when they where introduced. Thought they where more of a repair bot then builder though. I saw the MACs as something for setting up base and building and repairing close to home. Meaning the marines move out at start, at the same time MACs starts building base, and marines build in front. You could also push out with guarded MACs, and build together. The MACs could build at the speed of 2 marines. And also repair at the speed of 2 marines.
I also think the welder could work as the builder tool. Maybe you have to buy it. But should be available from start.
And I think the reason for a lot of people didn't go COM in NS1 is because of the skills needed, pressure and so on. Not because it wasn't fun!
+1 OP
BTW, any plans on dealing with the lack of mic users going COM? It makes a HUGE difference!
this player has less firepower than his other marine buddies but he provides support and the ability to erect forward bases whilst not being limited by AI pathfinding or other miscellaneous errors associated with NPCs. I think most players would gravitate towards the combat "classes" naturally but this would provide a solid support role alternative.
and let's keep it civil guys. all this "holier than thou/i'm smarter than you/you're dumb if you like to hold the 'e' key" bull###### is counterproductive to worthwhile discourse.
p.s. i thought comm'ing was the best part of NS1. i remember a race to the comm chair at the beginning of every ns_map. I think giving the commander a slightly bigger role couldn't hurt but I also don't think the commander role was "broken" or undesirable.
Discussion of the IPs getting an upgrade which lets you jump to your squad is currently, in my mind, the most reasonable replacement.
While staring at a building holding "use" for 1/10th of the game isn't a very good mechanic, I think it's a necessary evil for NS/NS2. The amount of depth and fun it added outweighs the boringness of building by a long shot. With MACs/Drifters, you will never have that same feeling of setting up shop outside of an alien hive just praying that no one catches you, panicing when you see a skulk when the building is only 1/2 done, etc. It really involved the players in the strategy.
In regards to marines being able to also build WHILE a MAC is building, that is to say, help the MAC build, but not build on their own, why not have it as a passive skill, where the the more marines there are within a set proximity, the faster the MACS will build.
A solution to the lone MAC happy meal could be an upgrade a little later in the game, similar to the electrified RT from NS1. Doesn't have to do damage to an alien, could just be a cool glowing blue defensive shield kind of thing.
another idea could be that a MAC is needed to begin construction of a building, but once begun, a marine/s can finish it off. could have a kind of leap frog effect. a MAC and 2 rines <i>(lol sounds like a burger order :P)</i> could push out to build, 1 marine stays to finish building while the other continues as escort to next.
RT , Siege , Phase Gate should be handled by marines.
for RolePlay u can say it has some batte...ry autofilled by the CC by electric field or whatever so it cant go too far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think this is a good idea.. why should for example the armory be builded at all? the com could drop it finished..
I like the idea that there should be some sort of limit imposed on how many can be produced, maybe according to player count? Something else?
Most of all I like the idea of the MAC being a floating swiss army knife...
ex:
Lights for dark areas
Maybe a motion detector that pings out to nearby marines
A chem dispenser to kill off infestation
*maybe* a slow firing, pretty weak weapon for a decree of self defense
Build buildings, (slightly faster/slower than a marine?, much faster if aided by marine.)
Mind you, this would be a swiss army knife. It wouldn't be the ideal solution for any of the purposes it's a lot nicer to have one around.
Perhaps have it upgradable...
As far as a means of weak, but present self defense:
Back in the day (1994) there was an epic sci fi shooter for the mac called Marathon (produced by Bungie, ala halo)...
There was a part in the game where you activated some 'defense' drones to help fight off the baddies. They had the equivalent of a handgun and were damn near defenseless (read, defenseless defense drones) unless you were there helping them out... just food for thought
<img src="http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/chapter-screens/m1/art/counterattack.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I know that is probably too much to consider given this phase of the alpha, I got a little carried away, but in summation, for many of the reasons mentioned by other members, I really agree that marines should be able to build with or without the drone...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
It is hard to believe that in public players have anymore "reason" to defend builder bots than build resource tower in original NS taking away the build aspect only reinforces this type of thinking and chances are that people run straight to the hive without a second thought. I originally thought build bot was to help people get weldered and building base at the start since these were messy in NS1 public gameplay but removing building as a whole from marines, I cant see the point. Removing interaction with commander and marines (other than medding) seems to have same idea behind them allowing easier public game even if comm is terribad.
More options allow more diversity and should not be left out just "because" it may be pain to balance.
I absolutely love MACs / Drifters and their role in the new NS2 world. I think they should not be removed. They are one of many great changes that says in bold face, "This is not 2002, this is not NS1". That said, their existence should not negate Marine's ability to build structures, and removing that ability from players only serves to limit possible strategies in the weeks, months and years to come.
Say you were doing a remote seige setup. With that sort of concept, the marines would first plant the mac station and then have him build the necessary support buildings for a remote base (like the new pg device, armory, sentries, etc...).
This also means that commanders will likely have MANY mac stations throughout the map, so they won't have to look around for 1 or 2 and they won't have to move them around so much.
edit- to keep them from being IMBA, though, MACs built at the mac station are expensive and take time while the MACs built back at the CC will be at a discount. So what you could do is build a remote mac station, build a phase within the range of the station, and then send a mac or two through the phase so that when they transport they will still be powered by that remote station.
Yeah I totally agree all above.
Building, team work, interaction, communication, tactics and more. All of them are totally around players.
We still play NS1. I played many games (mostly crack games) may be more then 10k. But this game communicates people. Team work
makes fun, different tactics etc. We still play NS1 cuz it is not only depend on your shoot or aim skill. i.e. I have low speed internet so
that makes difference while aiming. But on the otherhand I am a good player imao, cuz I build RTs, build PGs, I go to waypoints, I defend RTs etc.
Which are mostly not about killer skill but tactically team boosting skills :)
I think NS1 abilities with little changes would be fine be for the start.
JUst make a switch within the gamesettings so server Admins can decide if the game should run like:
- MAC building only
-MAC building supported by players
-PLayer only
So every Server Admin can choose what he whants.
We'll have servers of all types, everybody is pleased, so why discussing?
If we cant decide it, put in an Option, and inthe final stage of the game beta/gold release, we'll se what happens.
(and maybe its refreshing to, to play with different settings)
Greetings
Memnarch
Ideally, I like the concept of having the MAC be an accessory, not a main builder. Like it would be nice to have your marines take a corridor, try to set up seige, and meanwhile, you can sent a MAC on the other side of the map to repair/maintain another outpost of turrets, and slowly build things too (i think MAC's should be 3 times as slow as marines to build things).
I have the same worries with the Gorge. Taking away the gorge's importance in terms of RTs, Hive building, and chambers, makes the gorge so much less interesting. The Gorge's role needs to be vital, that's a large part of why everyone loves the gorge so much. It's a weak easily killed thing, but is so important and as a result needs to be protected. So that's why it's important from the other player's perspective. From the gorge's perspective, the same is true as with the marine. Only having one thing you're able to build really limits your options and the entire fun of being a gorge.
Will still exist, and or heightened with only MAC building.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or strategically covering a player while he's building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As well will still exist, and as well, more commonplace with a MAC builder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I strongly dislike the MAC so far, but am willing to understand its a new concept. So far, i really miss the old NS1 of building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I liked building things. It was cool. But technically you're still building things, it's just a new way. Personally I feel your reasons for disliking it, or at least your reasons for liking player-building aren't valid since they exist with MACs, too. The only difference is they're soulless, and can't think for themselves whether or not they want to do something; and of course are defenseless. The unique thing is that unlike NS1, where every "worker bee" could shoot or build, in order for you to successfully build your outpost, you have a new class of worker to protect. I mean think; in NS1, 5 people in a room means 5 builders, so if one dies, it doesn't matter, the rest can still build things. Now, with MACs, you have one builder, and you have 5 people who'll have to defend that builder, and hope they can before the aliens kill him, or them. But it's great, because if the aliens focus on the marines, then the builder is still building, or if they focus on the MAC, then the marines have an advantage to defending them.
I think there's far more balance with MAC's existing, regardless of it being one less feature that we don't as personal players, get. In the short term, yeah, I'm disheartened cause I liked building things. But in the long run, I think it's a better strategic choice to have MAC's.
JUst make a switch within the gamesettings so server Admins can decide if the game should run like:
- MAC building only
-MAC building supported by players
-PLayer only
So every Server Admin can choose what he whants.
We'll have servers of all types, everybody is pleased, so why discussing?
If we cant decide it, put in an Option, and inthe final stage of the game beta/gold release, we'll se what happens.
(and maybe its refreshing to, to play with different settings)
Greetings
Memnarch<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not 100% true. Sure due to LUA mods we can have whatever we want as a community, but the vanilla (and therefore default) gameplay setting is important and has only 1 value.
My idea for marine building:
MACs should drop the marine structure but both MACs and marines who have equipped a welder from the armory. The commander can also research Phase Tech which allows him to drop structures directly like in NS.
Benefits:
In the early game, MACs are the only way to drop structures which means they are very valuable and need to be protected by the marines (which I believe was the intent behind the Build 150 build system). Marines can also individually invest in welders to speed up building allowing for fast expansion strategies.
In the late game, the commander can choose to research Phase Tech, the benefit being that marines can now go behind enemy lines and set up siege bases ect. without having to worry about the fragility of the MACs. The disadvantage would be that it would cost extra resources (initial Phase Tech investment + individual welders investment). So basically you would be trading resources for the security that the structures will be dropped without having to rely on MACs that could easily die en route. This means MACs will still be relevant in the late game as a cheap way to build and weld armor within safe marine territory.
<!--quoteo(post=1791362:date=Aug 3 2010, 05:41 PM:name=trendynoise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (trendynoise @ Aug 3 2010, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if anyone has suggested this, but I've seen it mentioned that people think that "holding e" puts the player in a passive role. While I don't necessarily think that pressing "e" to build a structure makes the marine passive (considering the threat of being attacked), I would like to propose the idea of adding a mini game to building structures that could help the marine build structures faster as well as keep him in an active role.
One aspect from the game Moonbase Alpha by NASA is that when building various equipment instead of it just taking a certain amount of time a player can speed up how long it takes to fix a structure by correctly playing a minigame. Something like this can help players build more efficiently as well as keep them "active" instead of passively just pressing e.
See this video for an example (the video is sped up here but you'll get the idea), <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmAGNTzpINE#t=1m58s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmAGNTzpINE#t=1m58s</a>
(mini game at 1:58 seconds)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like the idea of having both MAC and marine building, and I say it should be one or the other, period. They've chosen MAC and I'm fine with that. It contains many of the same gameplay elements that people state are reasons for liking Marine-building, and also adds new ones, for the better, I think.
Like I said before, building was awesome and I loved it. But I want to see NS2 in all it's glory, and being different from NS1, not to be NS1 with special graphics.
@ the above, I can't imagine minigames in a fast paced multiplayer FPS/RTS being a great idea at all.