It felt wrong at first yes from what I expected, but it seemed like a natural thing anyway. The leap (at least to me) feels so fast and so powerful at the moment just when leaping from the ground, and distance covered is pretty darn large. Going from wall to wall feels possible now compared to what NS1 had. And it is also baseline with the lifeform now.
Either way, gameplay will work out fine regardless of the choice. Air-leaping does have its charm.
Given that a lot of corridors are tightly spaced, i don't think a mid air leap is needed. It would make more sense to be able to quickly leap from wall to wall
<!--quoteo(post=1791682:date=Aug 4 2010, 05:50 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Aug 4 2010, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Given that a lot of corridors are tightly spaced, i don't think a mid air leap is needed. It would make more sense to be able to quickly leap from wall to wall<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes that would be a nice feature.
If I had the patience I would happily photoshop a skulk into the prince of persia box art as encouragement.
Although I'm on the +1 for air leap side, the charge leap idea sounds pretty cool too. It should be one or the other however, but I think either would be a welcomed change from the way it is currently.
Just going to look at this from two differant perspectives, 1.Player 2.Game
now I started playing NS when it had already stopped being developed anyfurther, and started as trying to play marine, and there is nothing more annoiuing to a new player than to come us against one who has been playing for ages, can zip to close combat straight away and kill you in two bites. Sometimes the marine player just cannot get enough shots off to even kill the skulk before one or two hits are landed on the head and you are dead. Now this was incredibly dishearten for me it seemed like i just could not do anything the moment the skulks got leap, even with the shotgun, against a good player you may get 2-3 shots off and sure if one FULLY hits then you kill but you have to fully hit. This problem also went for the fade, it was just too fast to kill but on a much worse level.
a experienced marine player stood a much better chance but was still put at a disadvantage, if you look at it from a DPS perspective, the whole point is that the marines get a lower DPS but range, while alines get high DPS but no range. The moment you make the alines so fast that they can cover the distance between them and the marine, the only advantage the marine had to make that instance fair has gone, making the game unbalanced. Once again see the problem with the fade.
From a game perspective, this is not a crummy Mod anymore this is a fully fledged title, having models and animations that seeming "bounce" through the air looks both silly and unprofessional for a game that you just forked out however much money for, it would make people who have not played NS1 take another look at this game and reconsider spending there money on a game where the devs cannot even make a modals hit detection with the ground work.
Its understandable for us because we have played NS1 but many people haven't and if you want to carry on seeing Unknown worlds making games then they cannot just rely on their fan base.
And that is why i really do not want to see the double jumping skulk in the new version and think its fantastic that they took it out.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I expected mid-air leap because it was in NS1, but other than that reason, I don't see why it is required to be in NS2. Having the leap ability from the start of the game is compensation enough to not be able to leap in the air. I think it will work fine. Players will just have to adapt.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1791467:date=Aug 4 2010, 05:28 AM:name=Lucid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lucid @ Aug 4 2010, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as realism goes, I really don't care. Make up any kind of lore excuse for it that you want. However, I do have a few concerns with the current leap. First of all, I don't think it should be available out of the gate. It should be some kind of mid-game upgrade, or unlocked after a second hive is built, anything to delay it. Why? Because I've always felt that the heart of this game was the cautiously advancing marine vs the sneaky, camping, baiting skulk. Leap diminishes the core of that match-up way more than I'm comfortable with. Early game as a marine, I want to feel moderately safe while holding a good position in a room that shows me most of a skulks possible attack angles. When I'm advancing through doorways, pasts vents or around suspicious architecture, that's when I should feel incredibly vulnerable.
If leap does have to be a base ability, I would like it to have somewhat of a limitation. I too would hate not being able to jump-leap, so maybe there could be some sort of speed limit imposed. Jumping would not surpass this limit, but trying to double leap would. Falling a distance greater than your typical jump could also pass this limit. A system like this would probably be too quirky and unpredictable, but I'm just spitballing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this. While the skulk needs offensive tools, skulks having the current leap from the start ruins the early game skulk vs. lmg we all know and love from NS1. I like that the devs are trying to put more focus on the skulk vs. marine gameplay, but when all those people told them what they liked the most was skulk vs. marine gameplay, I don't think anyone was talking about leapskulk vs. marine gameplay. Leap should be an upgrade, a costly one at that.
<!--quoteo(post=1791682:date=Aug 4 2010, 05:50 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Aug 4 2010, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Given that a lot of corridors are tightly spaced, i don't think a mid air leap is needed. It would make more sense to be able to quickly leap from wall to wall<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a great idea. Skulks could start with a much weaker leap that can only jump short distances from surface to surface, which they can later upgrade to the current Leap. The weaker leap would also have a much lower energy drain so you could use it a bit before running out.
<!--quoteo(post=1791941:date=Aug 5 2010, 03:31 PM:name=vEtEr4n)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vEtEr4n @ Aug 5 2010, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the hell does realism have to do with video games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obvious. The answer is 'a lot'.
No air leap, but let 'em bounce (if timed) from any surface - even marines. Would probably need some visual cue that would indicate that the skulk is 'attached to a surface'. Paired with rotating bitecam (to indicate orientation).
Hmm..... new idea. Let the skulk leap in mid-air, but give the leap a motion-blur effect. So it's like they've got some super-evolved telekinesis type ######, but doesn't look like they're pushing against an invisible surface to leap. Kinda like how the fade is able to actually blink (teleport) in NS2. Neither of those things are technically possible right, but you can make it *look* "realistic", or rather, consistent. Plus it'd look pretty damn cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1792294:date=Aug 6 2010, 05:24 AM:name=Snoow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snoow @ Aug 6 2010, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why you guys talk so much about realism while we are talking about ALIENS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No answers that players who want mid air leap care about since some players want a game that makes consistent sense visually and physically and some just want to do things they liked from old game engine flaws.
A fade is known for being able to teleport. It makes sense for him to zip about magically while the other aliens need to push off from a surface or have wings. Skulks don't have wings or an explanation for being able to magically jetpack around with an ability referred to as 'leap', which describes an action where something pushes off from a surface to gain speed through the air.
I'm not completely sure about this one. On the other hand I definitely think basic leap needs some extra details and care to be interesting. 2 hive leaping is far less intereting gameplay moment that the early game without it.
Then again I'd also like to have less spamtastic leaping experience, the speed spam is one of the reasons why 2 hive gameplay isn't that intersting for a skulk. I'd say the optimal case was to find some new features to leap, but obviously that's a tough one to come up with.
What kept me playing NS for too long is the early game skulk versus marine gameplay, perhaps encompassing hive one versus marines at that stage. The great part of this phase of the game is how easy it is to parse information, even as a new player. You go to a resource tower, you build it. Some dog like guy bounces in to attack you and you shoot it. Then you advance towards the alien side of the map, meet more dog like creatures that have set up an ambush. You realise you need to go with friends and do so. Finally you get to an enemy resource tower and you kill it.
Then hive two comes along and all hell breaks loose with leaping celerity skulks zipping about, fades that can stay alive forever without going back to heal. It just gets frantic.
No, I'd say it's the good old NS1 early game feel we want to preserve as much as possible. Hell playing combat with a celerity skulk against a resupply marine for hours was actually more fun than forcing yourself through a dragged out high tech end game.
Again I suggest adding a charge to leap, hold mouse2 to charge the leap which makes you go further, faster, and allows you to do impact damage if you hit a marine, the downside is you can't move while leap is charged so you have to decide you're going to do it ahead of time and then either do it or go back to running around. It rewards ambushing, allows the increased jump range of mult-leaping, and also adds a new combat application to it.
Skulks should be able to leap off of any surface they come in contact with, including while airborne after the first leap. People are arguing that the old air leap of the HL1 engine allowed more "skill" because it let skulks pretty much move and turn wherever they want on a dime, including when floating in midair. Don't you think it would take more "skill" to plan your leap attacks 2 or 3 jumps in advance (Leap from the floor towards this wall, then leap again off the ceiling, then back down on to their heads)?
 <!--quoteo(post=1792938:date=Aug 8 2010, 06:42 PM:name=Thief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thief @ Aug 8 2010, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are arguing that the old air leap of the HL1 engine allowed more "skill" because it let skulks pretty much move and turn wherever they want on a dime, including when floating in midair.
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Don't you think it would take more "skill" to plan your leap attacks 2 or 3 jumps in advance<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (Leap from the floor towards this wall, then leap again off the ceiling, then back down on to their heads)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It most certainly would, but you know, it is not well liked around here by the conservative "pro-gamer-faction" to have to let go of their beloved HL1-engine-toys.
Serious, whats so bad about the current "skulk-starts-with-leap? I quite like it. It feels natural to leftklick=bite, rightklick=leap... Â why the hell should this clear and consistent game-play be bloated up with artificial non-real-physics-in-air multi jumps?Â
<!--quoteo(post=1792904:date=Aug 8 2010, 06:45 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Aug 8 2010, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What? No one likes my compromise (idea)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not especially (the blurring idea?). Personally I'd say no mid-air re-leaping at any point - it'd be very confusing to add it in with new hives. I'd be quite interested in an increasing power of leap as the hives progress (or even if the alien commander will have researching / evolving to do). Maybe change the amount of energy it takes to do too, so the first leap would be relatively short and if you leap twice in quick succession you'd only have energy for a couple of bites left before you have to rest, but a maxed out leap would be faster (thus further) and could have quite a few in a row.
Well, it's motion blur. I think it'd look cool. Actually I was thinking of an old DOS fighting game, One Must Fall: 2097. There was a fighter in it, called the Jaguar, that had a leap. It also had an air leap. I'll find a video. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnuUffYvxG0#t=14s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnuUffYvxG0#t=14s</a> - from where it's time stamped he does a single leap, and at the end (a couple seconds later) he does a double-leap. That's sort of the kind of effect I was thinking of.
Comments
Either way, gameplay will work out fine regardless of the choice. Air-leaping does have its charm.
Yes that would be a nice feature.
If I had the patience I would happily photoshop a skulk into the prince of persia box art as encouragement.
edit: I found patience
<img src="http://i33.tinypic.com/nywc3b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I am so good at photoshop.
I will just go for whatever the devs want.
now I started playing NS when it had already stopped being developed anyfurther, and started as trying to play marine, and there is nothing more annoiuing to a new player than to come us against one who has been playing for ages, can zip to close combat straight away and kill you in two bites. Sometimes the marine player just cannot get enough shots off to even kill the skulk before one or two hits are landed on the head and you are dead. Now this was incredibly dishearten for me it seemed like i just could not do anything the moment the skulks got leap, even with the shotgun, against a good player you may get 2-3 shots off and sure if one FULLY hits then you kill but you have to fully hit. This problem also went for the fade, it was just too fast to kill but on a much worse level.
a experienced marine player stood a much better chance but was still put at a disadvantage, if you look at it from a DPS perspective, the whole point is that the marines get a lower DPS but range, while alines get high DPS but no range. The moment you make the alines so fast that they can cover the distance between them and the marine, the only advantage the marine had to make that instance fair has gone, making the game unbalanced. Once again see the problem with the fade.
From a game perspective, this is not a crummy Mod anymore this is a fully fledged title, having models and animations that seeming "bounce" through the air looks both silly and unprofessional for a game that you just forked out however much money for, it would make people who have not played NS1 take another look at this game and reconsider spending there money on a game where the devs cannot even make a modals hit detection with the ground work.
Its understandable for us because we have played NS1 but many people haven't and if you want to carry on seeing Unknown worlds making games then they cannot just rely on their fan base.
And that is why i really do not want to see the double jumping skulk in the new version and think its fantastic that they took it out.
Hive start. ground leap.
hive 2. mid air leap.
hive 3. 2 mid air leaps. (caps at 3)
Iept's post works for me.
If leap does have to be a base ability, I would like it to have somewhat of a limitation. I too would hate not being able to jump-leap, so maybe there could be some sort of speed limit imposed. Jumping would not surpass this limit, but trying to double leap would. Falling a distance greater than your typical jump could also pass this limit. A system like this would probably be too quirky and unpredictable, but I'm just spitballing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. While the skulk needs offensive tools, skulks having the current leap from the start ruins the early game skulk vs. lmg we all know and love from NS1. I like that the devs are trying to put more focus on the skulk vs. marine gameplay, but when all those people told them what they liked the most was skulk vs. marine gameplay, I don't think anyone was talking about leapskulk vs. marine gameplay. Leap should be an upgrade, a costly one at that.
<!--quoteo(post=1791682:date=Aug 4 2010, 05:50 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Aug 4 2010, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Given that a lot of corridors are tightly spaced, i don't think a mid air leap is needed. It would make more sense to be able to quickly leap from wall to wall<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a great idea. Skulks could start with a much weaker leap that can only jump short distances from surface to surface, which they can later upgrade to the current Leap. The weaker leap would also have a much lower energy drain so you could use it a bit before running out.
Naw seriously. Put it back, it's so much fun. :)
Obvious. The answer is 'a lot'.
No air leap, but let 'em bounce (if timed) from any surface - even marines.
Would probably need some visual cue that would indicate that the skulk is 'attached to a surface'. Paired with rotating bitecam (to indicate orientation).
No answers? :(
No answers that players who want mid air leap care about since some players want a game that makes consistent sense visually and physically and some just want to do things they liked from old game engine flaws.
A fade is known for being able to teleport. It makes sense for him to zip about magically while the other aliens need to push off from a surface or have wings. Skulks don't have wings or an explanation for being able to magically jetpack around with an ability referred to as 'leap', which describes an action where something pushes off from a surface to gain speed through the air.
There's your answer. Have fun ignoring it.
Then again I'd also like to have less spamtastic leaping experience, the speed spam is one of the reasons why 2 hive gameplay isn't that intersting for a skulk. I'd say the optimal case was to find some new features to leap, but obviously that's a tough one to come up with.
What kept me playing NS for too long is the early game skulk versus marine gameplay, perhaps encompassing hive one versus marines at that stage. The great part of this phase of the game is how easy it is to parse information, even as a new player. You go to a resource tower, you build it. Some dog like guy bounces in to attack you and you shoot it. Then you advance towards the alien side of the map, meet more dog like creatures that have set up an ambush. You realise you need to go with friends and do so. Finally you get to an enemy resource tower and you kill it.
Then hive two comes along and all hell breaks loose with leaping celerity skulks zipping about, fades that can stay alive forever without going back to heal. It just gets frantic.
No, I'd say it's the good old NS1 early game feel we want to preserve as much as possible. Hell playing combat with a celerity skulk against a resupply marine for hours was actually more fun than forcing yourself through a dragged out high tech end game.
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Don't you think it would take more "skill" to plan your leap attacks 2 or 3 jumps in advance<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (Leap from the floor towards this wall, then leap again off the ceiling, then back down on to their heads)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It most certainly would, but you know, it is not well liked around here by the conservative "pro-gamer-faction" to have to let go of their beloved HL1-engine-toys.
Serious, whats so bad about the current "skulk-starts-with-leap? I quite like it. It feels natural to leftklick=bite, rightklick=leap... Â why the hell should this clear and consistent game-play be bloated up with artificial non-real-physics-in-air multi jumps?Â
Â
Not especially (the blurring idea?). Personally I'd say no mid-air re-leaping at any point - it'd be very confusing to add it in with new hives.
I'd be quite interested in an increasing power of leap as the hives progress (or even if the alien commander will have researching / evolving to do). Maybe change the amount of energy it takes to do too, so the first leap would be relatively short and if you leap twice in quick succession you'd only have energy for a couple of bites left before you have to rest, but a maxed out leap would be faster (thus further) and could have quite a few in a row.