<!--quoteo(post=1791638:date=Aug 4 2010, 07:46 AM:name=LlamaFarmer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LlamaFarmer @ Aug 4 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course im glad this is just some random poll conducted on the forums and unlikely to have any effect on the judgement of the devs. I would much prefer 1 to 3 if i cant have 2 and i cant see them changing it THAT much :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no illusions that this is an extremely unscientific poll. Out of 10,000+ pre-orders, we have about 50 responses? It's all mostly forum hunters.
That being said, it's much easier to see this way how people feel as a "majority" instead of trying to untangle all the wording in the discussion pages. However, the numbers do not show a convincing victory just yet. See note above about sample size.
So I guess judging by this thread the players want...
The marines will have the NS1 way of commander dropping buildings and then letting players/MACs build them. For aliens (so far) the Drifters will be consumed upon building a structure, and Gorges want to get the ability to drop RTs.
Not entirely bad, honestly. This could work. It's a bit asymmetrical as well. Here's what I believe is how the community wants it atm:
* The marines have to rely solely on the commander but also be able to quickly create buildings anywhere in the map. But still the MACs can ease the work for the commander in-base or elsewhere if he so pleases. The feeling of being vulnerable while building is key for the marines. * Aliens have low-resource Drifters that can be sacrificed for flash-bangs and are also consumed when creating a building, making them a spendable unit that can be created in numbers (goes along well with the first concept of the Hive and the "floaties"). And if all goes well, the Gorges will also be able to build RTs. Which also makes sense since the Gorges wants to be useful and reactive if one goes down or a new one needs to be taken asap.
<!--quoteo(post=1791638:date=Aug 4 2010, 08:46 AM:name=LlamaFarmer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LlamaFarmer @ Aug 4 2010, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm honestly surprised at how many 3s there are. I really thought 2 would be the most popular answer. Then again i assume its because with 2 marines are still only backup builders. us 2 lovers just want an extra function and a small addition to the game to increase versatility where as it seems to me 3s just want NS1 style stuff.
Of course im glad this is just some random poll conducted on the forums and unlikely to have any effect on the judgement of the devs. I would much prefer 1 to 3 if i cant have 2 and i cant see them changing it THAT much :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not surprising at all. Option 3 is status quo in NS1. This is a forum filled with NS1 players. Change (even good change) is scary.
Just 3 vanilla. And also Marines should build the same speed or slightly faster than MACs. Furthermore I reckon MACs should be available at the lowest tech tier and present a reasonable cost tradeoff. I also think they should get a defence upgrade (e.g. elec shield) to make them viable in the later game.
Reasoning:
<b>Commander places structures, Marines and MACs build them.</b> - If MACs autobuild they require less skill from the Commander. It's better for the Comm to have to place a structure and assign a MAC to construct it because it shows attention, awareness and planning. - A Marine building is a Marine not shooting. Marines primary role is to hold ground by shooting or threatening to shoot. Allowing a Marine to build is allowing an interesting choice which is the backbone of RTSes: the choice to resource gather, to tech or to fight. I've always found the fights and ambushes around Resource nodes and chokepoints to create the most interesting combat. If you separate the Marines from the buildbots the only person who makes this interesting choice is the Commander.
<b>Marines should build the same speed or slightly faster than MACs.</b> - MACs don't have defenses; they can wipe easily. They remove some of the teamwork required to capture important locations, therefore they should not build faster than a Marine who is playing a skilled role and whose death is a lot more costly to replace. - (same as above) A Marine building is a Marine not shooting. Marines primary role is to hold ground by shooting or threatening to shoot. Punishing a Marine for helping to build means it won't happen. Rewarding it makes for an interesting compromise. - Perhaps allow the Marine to build faster than a MAC only if using a Welder.
I have not read the entire thread, but I will cast a vote just the same.
3 (E)
I think it is important to engage marines in the more RTS elements of the game. This includes base building. And i like the game mechanics of marines covering each other while the initial base is being constructed. To me, marines covering each other emphasizes teamwork more than marines covering a yellow NPC.
<!--quoteo(post=1791757:date=Aug 4 2010, 10:00 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 4 2010, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] Option 3 is status quo in NS1. This is a forum filled with NS1 players. Change (even good change) is scary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Well put !<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This point really should be taken into account, when trying to build an oppinion by reading through this forums posts.
3H: Marines can build buildings but the finished building will only have 1/2 - 2/3th of it's HP until the MAC finishes it... just think of it as the marines putting it quickly together with light welding while the MAC has heavy welding equipment beeing able to reinforce the marine weldings on the building with more sturdy ones.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1791830:date=Aug 5 2010, 09:18 AM:name=Sturmwind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sturmwind @ Aug 5 2010, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Well put !<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 4 2010, 10:00 PM) * [...] Option 3 is status quo in NS1. This is a forum filled with NS1 players. Change (even good change) is scary.
Well put !
This point really should be taken into account, when trying to build an oppinion by reading through this forums posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah so be careful not to annoy everyone that preordered huh :)
<!--quoteo(post=1791840:date=Aug 5 2010, 01:26 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Aug 5 2010, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah so be careful not to annoy everyone that preordered huh :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have my preorder code to prove that i have <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->a certified right<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to voice my oppinion ;-)
<!--quoteo(post=1791757:date=Aug 4 2010, 08:00 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 4 2010, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not surprising at all. Option 3 is status quo in NS1. This is a forum filled with NS1 players. Change (even good change) is scary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but im a NS1 player to. I played it plenty. Was even in a clan for it for sometime and did some low level competition fighting. i saw low level as in semi skilled casual players rather more than the super twitching pr0 style amateurs.
NS1 with a graphics upgrade would be great... but NS2 as its own game with new ideas and gameplay appeals to me so much more.
This reminds me alot of Dawn of War 2.... So many people ######ed and Whined when they bought it to find out there was no real Base Building aspect. etc etc They all just wanted DoW with shiney graphics. Well sucked to be them. I loved the new direction they went, trying out something different. And i can say the same again about NS2. I don't want Just a shinier NS1.
Change is good. There have been plenty of ideas that have given marines a way to build without making the MAC obsolete and drastically changing the new gameplay direction. I hope UWE consider them. I hope, however unlikely i think it will be, that they dont cave in and make it NS1.0 Shiney edition.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1791847:date=Aug 4 2010, 06:37 PM:name=Sturmwind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sturmwind @ Aug 4 2010, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have my preorder code to prove that i have <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->a certified right<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to voice my oppinion ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have every right to voice your opinion. But lets not chop up ns1 into little pieces for more people to consume. Sequels usually go with <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->adding to the original<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> formula while still retaining what made the first game so special.
<!--quoteo(post=1791569:date=Aug 4 2010, 01:09 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 4 2010, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we want NS1 game style then we would play NS1, I am sick of hearing this argument. This game has MANY more features then the lack of marines being able to build, how is this hard for people to understand?
on the flip side I could say if they change the game so marines can build, you can wait for someone to make a mod to take it out.. see how that works and how asinine it is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... what? ...
I suggested making a NS1 game style mod for people who want NS1 game style on NS2. Obviously the same can be applied to what ever your problem is. Make your own mod with all the features you do and don't want. IT'S NOT HARD.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Commander places buildings, MACs and marines can help construct [NS1 mechanic, MACs acts as backup] B. Commander must research tech before marines can help construct D. Marines build at a different speed than MACs (probably slower)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably prefer 3D, but maybe a 3BD combo would work too. However, this is still something that will require a lot of playtesting to get right. Many of these combinations should be tried before a specific one is locked in.
#1 - Allow marines to carry building equipment they can link up to the MACS to assist in building.
#2 - Allow Commanders to link up MACS to selected marines. Basically acting as mini engineers. This frees up the commander to perform other tasks if he so chooses, and allows marines the ability to go off in small very capable teams.
<i>reasoning</i> This keeps the current style of gameplay but adds the suspense of building and not seeing what is going on around you. This also lets players decide if they want to defend or assist in building if they are alone.
Assists new commanders a great deal by splitting the responsibilities some. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Idea, one part.
#1 - Get rid of MAC's , allow the commander to select a limited number of toolkits that take up your primary weapon slot. These players can build any commander dropped building and perform minor repairs. perhaps even let him build a few things on his own.
<i>Reasoning</i> Similar to above, good players can pick up the slack of a new or bad commander. Allows playstyle of old NS and mixes it with a bit of the new style of limited growth I think they were going for in this new NS.
Nothing beats the feeling of desperately trying to get a structure built to fortify a position while you hear aliens lurking all around you just as Flayra described.
I do like the commander having a way to get buildings down without marine intervention for pub games. For higher level play, it would be nice to have the mechanic that allows the marines to assist in the building--and maybe get it done faster than just the MAC.
<!--quoteo(post=1791925:date=Aug 4 2010, 10:40 PM:name=Valthar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valthar @ Aug 4 2010, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First idea, two parts
#1 - Allow marines to carry building equipment they can link up to the MACS to assist in building.
#2 - Allow Commanders to link up MACS to selected marines. Basically acting as mini engineers. This frees up the commander to perform other tasks if he so chooses, and allows marines the ability to go off in small very capable teams.
<i>reasoning</i> This keeps the current style of gameplay but adds the suspense of building and not seeing what is going on around you. This also lets players decide if they want to defend or assist in building if they are alone.
Assists new commanders a great deal by splitting the responsibilities some. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Idea, one part.
#1 - Get rid of MAC's , allow the commander to select a limited number of toolkits that take up your primary weapon slot. These players can build any commander dropped building and perform minor repairs. perhaps even let him build a few things on his own.
<i>Reasoning</i> Similar to above, good players can pick up the slack of a new or bad commander. Allows playstyle of old NS and mixes it with a bit of the new style of limited growth I think they were going for in this new NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how this fits into the given parameters. Or are you suggesting a whole new system, in which case you need a pithy one-liner to explain it.
If you want your idea to be debated, find another thread.
Comments
im voting this way in the context of a powergrid/di room by room kind of gameplay
I would much prefer 1 to 3 if i cant have 2 and i cant see them changing it THAT much :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no illusions that this is an extremely unscientific poll. Out of 10,000+ pre-orders, we have about 50 responses? It's all mostly forum hunters.
That being said, it's much easier to see this way how people feel as a "majority" instead of trying to untangle all the wording in the discussion pages. However, the numbers do not show a convincing victory just yet. See note above about sample size.
The marines will have the NS1 way of commander dropping buildings and then letting players/MACs build them.
For aliens (so far) the Drifters will be consumed upon building a structure, and Gorges want to get the ability to drop RTs.
Not entirely bad, honestly. This could work.
It's a bit asymmetrical as well. Here's what I believe is how the community wants it atm:
* The marines have to rely solely on the commander but also be able to quickly create buildings anywhere in the map. But still the MACs can ease the work for the commander in-base or elsewhere if he so pleases. The feeling of being vulnerable while building is key for the marines.
* Aliens have low-resource Drifters that can be sacrificed for flash-bangs and are also consumed when creating a building, making them a spendable unit that can be created in numbers (goes along well with the first concept of the Hive and the "floaties"). And if all goes well, the Gorges will also be able to build RTs.
Which also makes sense since the Gorges wants to be useful and reactive if one goes down or a new one needs to be taken asap.
I really thought 2 would be the most popular answer.
Then again i assume its because with 2 marines are still only backup builders. us 2 lovers just want an extra function and a small addition to the game to increase versatility where as it seems to me 3s just want NS1 style stuff.
Of course im glad this is just some random poll conducted on the forums and unlikely to have any effect on the judgement of the devs.
I would much prefer 1 to 3 if i cant have 2 and i cant see them changing it THAT much :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not surprising at all. Option 3 is status quo in NS1. This is a forum filled with NS1 players. Change (even good change) is scary.
Reasoning:
<b>Commander places structures, Marines and MACs build them.</b>
- If MACs autobuild they require less skill from the Commander. It's better for the Comm to have to place a structure and assign a MAC to construct it because it shows attention, awareness and planning.
- A Marine building is a Marine not shooting. Marines primary role is to hold ground by shooting or threatening to shoot. Allowing a Marine to build is allowing an interesting choice which is the backbone of RTSes: the choice to resource gather, to tech or to fight. I've always found the fights and ambushes around Resource nodes and chokepoints to create the most interesting combat. If you separate the Marines from the buildbots the only person who makes this interesting choice is the Commander.
<b>Marines should build the same speed or slightly faster than MACs.</b>
- MACs don't have defenses; they can wipe easily. They remove some of the teamwork required to capture important locations, therefore they should not build faster than a Marine who is playing a skilled role and whose death is a lot more costly to replace.
- (same as above) A Marine building is a Marine not shooting. Marines primary role is to hold ground by shooting or threatening to shoot. Punishing a Marine for helping to build means it won't happen. Rewarding it makes for an interesting compromise.
- Perhaps allow the Marine to build faster than a MAC only if using a Welder.
3 (E)
I think it is important to engage marines in the more RTS elements of the game. This includes base building. And i like the game mechanics of marines covering each other while the initial base is being constructed. To me, marines covering each other emphasizes teamwork more than marines covering a yellow NPC.
<img src="http://www.profilebrand.com/funny-pictures/category/cats/609_invalid-watermelon-cat.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Cheers,
Cody
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Well put !<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This point really should be taken into account, when trying to build an oppinion by reading through this forums posts.
Item Welder.
Or maybe:
3H: Marines can build buildings but the finished building will only have 1/2 - 2/3th of it's HP until the MAC finishes it... just think of it as the marines putting it quickly together with light welding while the MAC has heavy welding equipment beeing able to reinforce the marine weldings on the building with more sturdy ones.
QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 4 2010, 10:00 PM) *
[...] Option 3 is status quo in NS1. This is a forum filled with NS1 players. Change (even good change) is scary.
Well put !
This point really should be taken into account, when trying to build an oppinion by reading through this forums posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah so be careful not to annoy everyone that preordered huh :)
I have my preorder code to prove that i have <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->a certified right<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to voice my oppinion ;-)
Yeah but im a NS1 player to. I played it plenty. Was even in a clan for it for sometime and did some low level competition fighting.
i saw low level as in semi skilled casual players rather more than the super twitching pr0 style amateurs.
NS1 with a graphics upgrade would be great... but NS2 as its own game with new ideas and gameplay appeals to me so much more.
This reminds me alot of Dawn of War 2.... So many people ######ed and Whined when they bought it to find out there was no real Base Building aspect. etc etc
They all just wanted DoW with shiney graphics. Well sucked to be them.
I loved the new direction they went, trying out something different. And i can say the same again about NS2. I don't want Just a shinier NS1.
Change is good. There have been plenty of ideas that have given marines a way to build without making the MAC obsolete and drastically changing the new gameplay direction. I hope UWE consider them.
I hope, however unlikely i think it will be, that they dont cave in and make it NS1.0 Shiney edition.
You have every right to voice your opinion. But lets not chop up ns1 into little pieces for more people to consume. Sequels usually go with <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->adding to the original<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> formula while still retaining what made the first game so special.
on the flip side I could say if they change the game so marines can build, you can wait for someone to make a mod to take it out.. see how that works and how asinine it is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... what? ...
I suggested making a NS1 game style mod for people who want NS1 game style on NS2. Obviously the same can be applied to what ever your problem is. Make your own mod with all the features you do and don't want. IT'S NOT HARD.
B. Commander must research tech before marines can help construct
D. Marines build at a different speed than MACs (probably slower)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably prefer 3D, but maybe a 3BD combo would work too. However, this is still something that will require a lot of playtesting to get right. Many of these combinations should be tried before a specific one is locked in.
D. MAC should build at 2.5 rate of a marine.
possibly 3DE
#1 - Allow marines to carry building equipment they can link up to the MACS to assist in building.
#2 - Allow Commanders to link up MACS to selected marines. Basically acting as mini engineers. This frees up the commander to perform other tasks if he so chooses, and allows marines the ability to go off in small very capable teams.
<i>reasoning</i> This keeps the current style of gameplay but adds the suspense of building and not seeing what is going on around you. This also lets players decide if they want to defend or assist in building if they are alone.
Assists new commanders a great deal by splitting the responsibilities some.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Idea, one part.
#1 - Get rid of MAC's , allow the commander to select a limited number of toolkits that take up your primary weapon slot. These players can build any commander dropped building and perform minor repairs. perhaps even let him build a few things on his own.
<i>Reasoning</i> Similar to above, good players can pick up the slack of a new or bad commander. Allows playstyle of old NS and mixes it with a bit of the new style of limited growth I think they were going for in this new NS.
Nothing beats the feeling of desperately trying to get a structure built to fortify a position while you hear aliens lurking all around you just as Flayra described.
I do like the commander having a way to get buildings down without marine intervention for pub games. For higher level play, it would be nice to have the mechanic that allows the marines to assist in the building--and maybe get it done faster than just the MAC.
-cri.tical / hammett
#1 - Allow marines to carry building equipment they can link up to the MACS to assist in building.
#2 - Allow Commanders to link up MACS to selected marines. Basically acting as mini engineers. This frees up the commander to perform other tasks if he so chooses, and allows marines the ability to go off in small very capable teams.
<i>reasoning</i> This keeps the current style of gameplay but adds the suspense of building and not seeing what is going on around you. This also lets players decide if they want to defend or assist in building if they are alone.
Assists new commanders a great deal by splitting the responsibilities some.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Idea, one part.
#1 - Get rid of MAC's , allow the commander to select a limited number of toolkits that take up your primary weapon slot. These players can build any commander dropped building and perform minor repairs. perhaps even let him build a few things on his own.
<i>Reasoning</i> Similar to above, good players can pick up the slack of a new or bad commander. Allows playstyle of old NS and mixes it with a bit of the new style of limited growth I think they were going for in this new NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how this fits into the given parameters. Or are you suggesting a whole new system, in which case you need a pithy one-liner to explain it.
If you want your idea to be debated, find another thread.