<!--quoteo(post=1791720:date=Aug 4 2010, 11:46 AM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Aug 4 2010, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? ...really? Why not just go and play TF2, that's pretty much what you're talking about. This game isn't TF2 or any other game. This is Natural Selection. If you want more classes go play TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was that a flame? Natural Selection has many Classes of players on both sides, jetpack or armor, skulk or onos....ect....
I really can't see the comparison to a FPS everything blowing up how did i get shot in the A$$ kinda game.
FWIW i'm not convinced by the 'builder bots' concept myself for either team, unless perhaps the alien builder is cloaked and only appears when it reaches its' destination. The MAC is slooooow and quite frustrating at present, given how weak it is and prone to being taken out (3 bites ?)
I quite like being a sitting duck to build as a marine too - the fact you were vulnerable for a short while added massively (IMO) to the tension of the game. I'd happily swap a weapon for a welder to enable me to rush to res nodes to build.
It's hard to judge the final gameplay though, given that this is still an alpha, and things aren't set in stone yet - I think as die-hard players we've been blinded by the fantastic playability of the original.
Some general comments though for now;
* my framerate is too poor to be playable properly (6-14fps) * a single lerk gassing marine spawn can take out the whole team far too easily * the armoury is slow to use, and getting health or ammo from it is a bit of a random event - if you click to use the armoury, do you need to press and hold "use" to get a choice of weapons, or press intermittently for health and ammo ?!?)
F1 on a UK keymap doesn't let me send feedback - do you need to be on a certain menu to do it, or should it be enabled throughout and "mid game" ? I've noticed MACs sink into the floor at certain res nodes while building, and the player lists not updating during the game.
If the feedback option is borked, how about letting us send a message via the command line, i.e. "fb problem with MAC getting stuck here" - perhaps automatically adding the users' "location" in the map to the data sent back to UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1791791:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:46 PM:name=phoenixbbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixbbs @ Aug 4 2010, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the feedback option is borked, how about letting us send a message via the command line, i.e. "fb problem with MAC getting stuck here" - perhaps automatically adding the users' "location" in the map to the data sent back to UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Use the GetSatisfaction page. Accessible via clicking on the Feedback tab on the right on this webpage or <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds</a>
Also, note that the MACs and Drifters/Floaties are not solely builders. They will have auxiliary support purposes as well.
Obviously the dev's have taken note of this discussion. I seriously hope they act on it. Most of the people who are/have supported the company loved the original NS. The changes in NS2 are pretty big in terms how people play the game. I've already mentioned how I usually always used to play as Gorge, building stuff and helping patch up team mates during an attack. The changes just to the Gorge doesn't inspire me with confidence that I'll get the same enjoyment out of NS2 as I did with NS1; and this is just one case.
Please, cater to your base first -those who have come from NS1- and branch out to the new customers later.
<!--quoteo(post=1790439:date=Aug 1 2010, 11:18 PM:name=Walfisch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walfisch @ Aug 1 2010, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still confused by this whole tension argument. I said it before - if you can only have tension from being helpless, you must have hated movies like Aliens, Predator, and the multitude of other science fiction movies where the humans have a clear military presence and still freak out because "why would they? They have guns." It doesn't make sense that the only way the game can be tense is if you're helpless, and if you were solo building the whole time, you weren't really a team player to begin with and so are making a poor point that "since I can't enjoy being by myself, no one can."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it's quite the opposite...
In alien1 there had been no military presence, the majority of time they ran from it or tried to hold it off with makeshift weapons, same situation in alien 3 tension got mostly build trough their inability of defending themselfs. In alien2 yes there had been a military presence, that didn't take much tension out of it because they still had scenes where marines welded doors shut, MARINES welded those doors shut and still everybody had been freaking out.
Imagine the same situation in the movie when they had a MAC.. "guys let the MAC do the welding, if they break trough we just gonna shoot everything including the MAC as it's gonna be in the LoF". Not to mention that in all these movies the most tension usually resulted in situations where people lacked means to defend themselfs, or are forced to "drop" their defense for a limited time because they needed to do something. Bishop crawling trough a narrow tunnel with just a handgun is to this day one of the worst nightmare scenarios to me.
Yes this is somewhat off topic but i feel the need to point this out because especially the second alien movie makes the idea of marines beeing able to build/weld more appealing to me than anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1791701:date=Aug 4 2010, 06:15 PM:name=urinalcake)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (urinalcake @ Aug 4 2010, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that MACs should build very slowly, Marines should build much quicker, which makes the marines building a much more powerful supplement.
This ensures that the building gets built EVENTUALLY, but marines have incentive to build, in order to get it done quicker. MACS would just have to build at a creeping pace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thingy I don't like with such solution is people assuming that the MACs are going to build things anyway. For example I don't want to wait a whole minute to get my arms/obs up just because people see a MAC working on it and proceed to other tasks.
It's still a decent solution though, it's not like the rest of the options didn't have downsides.
It might be me. But why not just phase them in? XD They can build the stuff while your gaurding it. And you no longer have to escort it. I mean I LOVED to ninja. Yes it might not be very teamworky and communicationally (thats not a word i know) But it felt so good to just sneak around kharaa owned property jump over some oc's and just go. I need a phase gate and a turret factory here.
And then the building part where you made sounds and the entire (in my mind) could hear you build it. 150000 aliens comming your way because you are building a pg.
Correct me if im wrong tho but wasnt the idea at first to make a game that evolved from ns1? Like the races teching up against the enemy ? So why would the rines actually lose the abillity to phase stuff in?
But still i dont like escorting the bots. And i do is less and less. They can try and catch up if you ask me >>
weldbots are important at the midgame, because it adds more depth to the game.
because then its possible, that a good commander can keep a game running, while his team suxx :P on the other hand, a good overskilled player should always be able to rock the crap out of a newbteam, dosent matter what upgrades they have.
<!--quoteo(post=1791701:date=Aug 4 2010, 06:15 PM:name=urinalcake)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (urinalcake @ Aug 4 2010, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that MACs should build very slowly, Marines should build much quicker, which makes the marines building a much more powerful supplement.
This ensures that the building gets built EVENTUALLY, but marines have incentive to build, in order to get it done quicker. MACS would just have to build at a creeping pace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No this ensures that MACs become obsolete and almost pointless. Why bother making the MAC at all? Just make a marine build. If nobody is willing then you end up behind in the tech race as everything starts taking forever to build with the slow MAC. It would be the same problems as in NS1 when you had a ######bag marine team to command except in this case you get a tiny bot making stuff super slow rather than the comm jumping out to build stuff himself.. although of course it would be most likely the comm would end up doing this anyway because its going to be faster than sitting on his ass watching a tiny robot slowly build crap.
The only way what you suggest would ever be viable is if MACs become nothing more than a support unit to fix the marines etc. which will lead to the commander having to constantly be micro-ing it and trying to keep up with each squad of marines out there at the same time while also trying to do research in base etc etc. Making the commander job impossible for anybody who cant multi task hilariously well. Most RTS players maybe able to do this to an acceptable level. But most FPS players? The guys who come to try out the new alien shooter with abit of crossover. their first turn in the comm chair would likely become a nightmare.
<!--quoteo(post=1791829:date=Aug 4 2010, 07:16 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Aug 4 2010, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it's quite the opposite...
In alien1 there had been no military presence, the majority of time they ran from it or tried to hold it off with makeshift weapons, same situation in alien 3 tension got mostly build trough their inability of defending themselfs. In alien2 yes there had been a military presence, that didn't take much tension out of it because they still had scenes where marines welded doors shut, MARINES welded those doors shut and still everybody had been freaking out.
Imagine the same situation in the movie when they had a MAC.. "guys let the MAC do the welding, if they break trough we just gonna shoot everything including the MAC as it's gonna be in the LoF". Not to mention that in all these movies the most tension usually resulted in situations where people lacked means to defend themselfs, or are forced to "drop" their defense for a limited time because they needed to do something. Bishop crawling trough a narrow tunnel with just a handgun is to this day one of the worst nightmare scenarios to me.
Yes this is somewhat off topic but i feel the need to point this out because especially the second alien movie makes the idea of marines beeing able to build/weld more appealing to me than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why I wish you read the whole post. I said I think welders still have a place in repairing and welding objectives, but making it so marines can drop structures and do all the building themselves makes the comm useless.
Also the most tense moment of Aliens was the marines discovering the aliens and still failing miserably. No welding involved. That's been my point the entire time: not that welding wasn't tense, but that saying that's the only way you had tense moments was a smack in the face to all other gameplay and sources of inspiration everywhere.
<!--quoteo(post=1791656:date=Aug 4 2010, 11:23 AM:name=Psycho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psycho @ Aug 4 2010, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How the hell can one marine carry an rt on his back? yeah, good question.. Makes me wonder about ns1 where buildings popped out of nowhere..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That phasing in idea could be interesting. Say that there's a building* at base, that would allow the MAC to phase into a location next to an active marine (or building). Remember how Charlie said that they were considering squads, where you could rejoin your squad, wherever they were? It'd essentially be the same thing. Just don't allow the MAC to phase away from that location, unless there's (or it's built) another of those buildings*, since of course it wouldn't be able to. And give the phase a cooldown so you couldn't abuse it.
covering a mac building a pg next to the mainhive, or building it alone and hoping to survive?
marines should be able to build because a relocate will not work without :P but don't take the mac away from the commander, in mid- and lategame, its needed heavily and brings more depth in the game!
<!--quoteo(post=1791700:date=Aug 4 2010, 07:14 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Aug 4 2010, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seriously feels as though this conversation is being discussed with people who have never really played NS1 either competitively or to the games full extent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Screw you! I played NS for years for fun and competitively, I'm viewing this from BOTH angles, not just the limited point of view from someone who thinks he's Pro.
And if you want to argue about strategy, then your wrong! You wouldn't "always go for the marines - duh" if your a single skulk and your out numbered from a group of marines + macs, then of course you'd go for the mac. whats taking out a single marine gona do?.. nothing. Sounds to me like your the noob.
You cant select one single situation to prove a point, you have to look at all possible situations. its Variety thats the spice of life.
And I think what your forgetting is that NS is a game thats played publically, by all types of people! Its ok for the likes of you and me to take things for granted and not be scared anymore but MOST of the people playing a game like NS play it casually, for a laugh, for fun. Not seriously and competitively.
In your sad life you may have forgotten the fun you had when you first started playing NS, but I havnt, most people havnt, and its clear that even the devs havnt.
Ive said it in other beta tests, it applies here as well. Games should never be shaped by the competitive Pro community. Excluding the casual community for the benefit of the Pros will only ever lead to a dead game. Playing NS1 competitively a lot does not make an opinion any more valid than that of someone who only ever played casually.
<!--quoteo(post=1792060:date=Aug 5 2010, 11:12 AM:name=Harathan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harathan @ Aug 5 2010, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ive said it in other beta tests, it applies here as well. Games should never be shaped by the competitive Pro community. Excluding the casual community for the benefit of the Pros will only ever lead to a dead game. Playing NS1 competitively a lot does not make an opinion any more valid than that of someone who only ever played casually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't make it more valid, but often times it makes it more knowledgeable and well reasoned.
<!--quoteo(post=1792064:date=Aug 5 2010, 08:21 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Aug 5 2010, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't make it more valid, but often times it makes it more knowledgeable and well reasoned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It can also make it more biased toward the play-style that the competitive player is used to; which was the point of the post you just quoted. Even knowledgeable, well reasoned opinions can be wrong. :)
As far as this whole topic goes, I'm actually on the fence about what would be best for this game. On the one hand, I loved the tension of building things while hoping I lived through the experience. On the other hand, being a Commander and trying to get people to do what you want is a pain in the ass when nobody wants to listen.
However, NS1 also had the problem of not being "complete" in certain aspects, such as proper A/V feedback for what the Commander wants or what your <b>reward</b> is. I'll get back to "rewards" in a moment; the point here is that if NS2 does take on the "marines can build" aspect of NS1, it <i>can</i> be "done right" if people are able to get a clear and concise direction of what it is the Commander is asking. I know UWE is actually working on this problem with checkpoints and breadcrumbs, so marines building might actually be a <i>more</i> viable option under NS2 circumstances. But there needs to be a bit of a difference. There should be direct orders (you, specific player, should do this thing I asked) and generic "first come, first serve" orders (anyone can go do this, so do it if you can) and even high-priority alert commands (holy hell someone do this now go go go) so people can get a sense of, out of all the orders, what they should be doing. People are often too busy to read and type, while going through a hotkey tree to find the proper voice command is difficult and cumbersome. We need direct, easily accessible, and simple to understand A/V feedback to really get the Natural Selection game type somewhere that anyone can play and enjoy. <b>This entire paragraph is on the "let marines build" side of the argument.</b>
Back to "rewards" which are the main problem of why NS1 probably wouldn't work so well in today's market. A lot of people simply don't care about winning a match nowadays, especially since "progressive meta-gaming" has now taken hold of most genres. I do not consider achievements an answer to this, which is why TF2 now has hats. I'm not suggesting NS2 actually create a meta-game in order to push people into wanting to win; quite the contrary. I think if NS2 needs a simple within-the-game rewards system in order to encourage players to do the Commander's bidding. What if there were a little request interface where the player could request what item they want to upgrade to and, by completing a Commander's request, he gets the upgrade whenever he walks up to a station? Or inversely, the Commander could offer up the rewards and the abiding marines would receive them? There's probably a few other ways this could go, but this explanation and <b>this paragraph is on the "don't let marines build" side of the argument</b> since players are wholly unreliable as builders unless you incentivize the action. And even then, you get player in-fighting to see who can get the reward first, which can instantly ruin a game.
So I guess what I'm saying is, a hybridized version where we get AI peons <i>and</i> marines able to build would probably be the best bet <i>despite</i> the fact this creates redundancy for the Commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1792060:date=Aug 5 2010, 11:12 AM:name=Harathan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harathan @ Aug 5 2010, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ive said it in other beta tests, it applies here as well. Games should never be shaped by the competitive Pro community. Excluding the casual community for the benefit of the Pros will only ever lead to a dead game. Playing NS1 competitively a lot does not make an opinion any more valid than that of someone who only ever played casually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In most cases, yes it does. The average competitive player plays (played) far more NS than most pub players did, giving them a better understanding for the game. Not to mention that balancing a 15v15 pub is nothing like balancing a 6v6 match, so you can hardly discount their suggestions.
<!--quoteo(post=1792060:date=Aug 5 2010, 07:12 PM:name=Harathan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harathan @ Aug 5 2010, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ive said it in other beta tests, it applies here as well. Games should never be shaped by the competitive Pro community. Excluding the casual community for the benefit of the Pros will only ever lead to a dead game. Playing NS1 competitively a lot does not make an opinion any more valid than that of someone who only ever played casually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I recommend you check up threads regarding matter, if you still dont change your mind or choose ignorance theres nothing we can do.
UWE introduced the MACs for two reasons (that I can see): <ol type='1'><li>Commanders would not be 100% dependent on Marines to build their structures. Players that do not like building really like this.</li><li>Marines must now maintain stiff front lines. The slow, vulnerable and noisy MACs mean Marines cannot "ninja" or sneak into alien territory. MACs and Siege Cannons (yet to be implemented) must be escorted. Aliens keep most of their gorge-given building abilities. This introduces greater separation between the two teams' styles.</li></ol> There is a strong demand to bring back the marine's ability to build for the following reasons: <ul><li>Several players (not all) enjoy putting their gun down and building</li><li>Players miss the NS1 tactic of piling marines on a structure to power-build it</li><li>Escorting the MAC can be slow and difficult</li><li>Players miss the NS1 tactic of stealth building in alien territory</li></ul>
The last two are big parts of what makes NS2 a new and different game than NS1. NS2 is now about the Marines maintaining strong front lines. Only Aliens keep the ability to flank, sneak around and build behind enemy lines. Phase Gates are gone and Siege Cannons are automated tanks. Some NS1 veterans may abhor these changes, but please try to withhold you judgement because the Alpha does not yet have all its features. Wait until we get a chance actually play a more complete NS2 before wishing for a complete return of NS1 game play.
I get the MACs and the mechanism they introduce. Personally, I think it is good if the Marines get back the ability to help build and power-build structures. I do not think it violates the reasons UWE introduced the MACs, nor does it make Marines too powerful. The idea of having to use welders is excellent. It adds a resource-based cost for the tactic. The welders could be purchased by Marines from the armory to replace the 2-second axe so commanders are not burdened with doling them out to marines who may or may not want to help build. Maybe the welders could repair Marine armor like in NS1?
<!--quoteo(post=1792182:date=Aug 5 2010, 03:19 PM:name=3AngryInches)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3AngryInches @ Aug 5 2010, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens keep most of their gorge-given building abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges can't build anything except Hydras right now.
While I obviously agree lean towards one set of opinions on this sidebar, I think we should try and keep the topic on the building mechanism rather than derailing. There will be plenty of time for these pro v. pub arguments once there is an actual game to play!
<!--quoteo(post=1792183:date=Aug 5 2010, 05:21 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 5 2010, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges can't build anything except Hydras right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is because we are early in the Alpha. I thought Gorges would eventually be able to build different types of chambers in addition to the Hydras. Is that incorrect?
I haven't rifled through the 23 pages of text, so I apologize if my opinion is redundant. I would just like to add it to the pile.
I originally thought the MAC was going to be an assist tool for the commander to relieve the commander from yelling "HEY, COME BACK AND BUILD BASE". I thought marines would maintain the ability to build, but MACs would fill the void when marines simply ran off without building something (essentially getting rid of the base monkey role). Now it seems that NS2 will be one giant VIP mode where marines have to escort the VIP (the MAC in this case) to its destination. I can't say I like the thought of that. I, too, was one of those who enjoyed building... not for the sake of building but because it was a deeper involvement in teamwork to achieve the primary goal of defeating the aliens. Now all it feels like is that I can only kill. Putting forth escorting the MACs doesn't quite fill the void of teamwork that actually building a structure held. I'm not entirely sure how the gorge and alien commander will play out, but I'd like to see the gorge remain a participating builder of various structures as well. I know it was frustrating in NS1 trying to get people to spend their res at the get go for RTs and chambers, so I hope there will be a symbiosis between the gorge and alien commander to rectify that.
I'd like to keep the ability to build as a marine and have the MACs as a failsafe builder when the marines fail to build at all. But just as many posts in this thread, it's just my opinion and feelings.
<!--quoteo(post=1792191:date=Aug 5 2010, 03:51 PM:name=3AngryInches)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3AngryInches @ Aug 5 2010, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is because we are early in the Alpha. I thought Gorges would eventually be able to build different types of chambers in addition to the Hydras. Is that incorrect?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My impression was that would also fall under the discretion of the Alien Commander unless something changes. They definitely cannot build RTs.
However, I haven't heard any official word on that. Anyone else have better memory?
The great thing about not having floaters and MACS was that the unexpected would occur. This added so much to the replayability for me. Epic struggles would occur at unexpected locations at unexpected times.
There might still be epic struggles but now that unexpected element will disappear because you'll know exactly where those battles will occur. Now there are constants (floaters & MACs) and restrictions limiting the amount of surprise that can take place.
<!--quoteo(post=1792210:date=Aug 5 2010, 05:44 PM:name=eliotmat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eliotmat @ Aug 5 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The great thing about not having floaters and MACS was that the unexpected would occur. This added so much to the replayability for me. Epic struggles would occur at unexpected locations at unexpected times.
There might still be epic struggles but now that unexpected element will disappear because you'll know exactly where those battles will occur. Now there are constants (floaters & MACs) and restrictions limiting the amount of surprise that can take place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm guessing you either didn't play that often, or are remembering through extremely rose-colored blinders.
<!--quoteo(post=1792212:date=Aug 5 2010, 06:45 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 5 2010, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm guessing you either didn't play that often, or are remembering through extremely rose-colored blinders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your assumptions are incorrect. I played frequently from November of 2002 until the bulk of the NS gamers disappeared. Classic and combat. Modded and unmodded.
Comments
Was that a flame? Natural Selection has many Classes of players on both sides, jetpack or armor, skulk or onos....ect....
I really can't see the comparison to a FPS everything blowing up how did i get shot in the A$$ kinda game.
I'm a bit confused by that statement?
I quite like being a sitting duck to build as a marine too - the fact you were vulnerable for a short while added massively (IMO) to the tension of the game. I'd happily swap a weapon for a welder to enable me to rush to res nodes to build.
It's hard to judge the final gameplay though, given that this is still an alpha, and things aren't set in stone yet - I think as die-hard players we've been blinded by the fantastic playability of the original.
Some general comments though for now;
* my framerate is too poor to be playable properly (6-14fps)
* a single lerk gassing marine spawn can take out the whole team far too easily
* the armoury is slow to use, and getting health or ammo from it is a bit of a random event - if you click to use the armoury, do you need to press and hold "use" to get a choice of weapons, or press intermittently for health and ammo ?!?)
F1 on a UK keymap doesn't let me send feedback - do you need to be on a certain menu to do it, or should it be enabled throughout and "mid game" ? I've noticed MACs sink into the floor at certain res nodes while building, and the player lists not updating during the game.
If the feedback option is borked, how about letting us send a message via the command line, i.e. "fb problem with MAC getting stuck here" - perhaps automatically adding the users' "location" in the map to the data sent back to UWE.
Use the GetSatisfaction page. Accessible via clicking on the Feedback tab on the right on this webpage or
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds</a>
Also, note that the MACs and Drifters/Floaties are not solely builders. They will have auxiliary support purposes as well.
Please, cater to your base first -those who have come from NS1- and branch out to the new customers later.
Actually it's quite the opposite...
In alien1 there had been no military presence, the majority of time they ran from it or tried to hold it off with makeshift weapons, same situation in alien 3 tension got mostly build trough their inability of defending themselfs.
In alien2 yes there had been a military presence, that didn't take much tension out of it because they still had scenes where marines welded doors shut, MARINES welded those doors shut and still everybody had been freaking out.
Imagine the same situation in the movie when they had a MAC.. "guys let the MAC do the welding, if they break trough we just gonna shoot everything including the MAC as it's gonna be in the LoF".
Not to mention that in all these movies the most tension usually resulted in situations where people lacked means to defend themselfs, or are forced to "drop" their defense for a limited time because they needed to do something. Bishop crawling trough a narrow tunnel with just a handgun is to this day one of the worst nightmare scenarios to me.
Yes this is somewhat off topic but i feel the need to point this out because especially the second alien movie makes the idea of marines beeing able to build/weld more appealing to me than anything else.
This ensures that the building gets built EVENTUALLY, but marines have incentive to build, in order to get it done quicker. MACS would just have to build at a creeping pace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thingy I don't like with such solution is people assuming that the MACs are going to build things anyway. For example I don't want to wait a whole minute to get my arms/obs up just because people see a MAC working on it and proceed to other tasks.
It's still a decent solution though, it's not like the rest of the options didn't have downsides.
I mean I LOVED to ninja. Yes it might not be very teamworky and communicationally (thats not a word i know) But it felt so good to just sneak around kharaa owned property jump over some oc's and just go. I need a phase gate and a turret factory here.
And then the building part where you made sounds and the entire (in my mind) could hear you build it. 150000 aliens comming your way because you are building a pg.
Correct me if im wrong tho but wasnt the idea at first to make a game that evolved from ns1? Like the races teching up against the enemy ?
So why would the rines actually lose the abillity to phase stuff in?
But still i dont like escorting the bots. And i do is less and less. They can try and catch up if you ask me >>
because then its possible,
that a good commander can keep a game running, while his team suxx :P
on the other hand, a good overskilled player should always be able to
rock the crap out of a newbteam, dosent matter what upgrades they have.
focus celerity fade *nom nom nom*
This ensures that the building gets built EVENTUALLY, but marines have incentive to build, in order to get it done quicker. MACS would just have to build at a creeping pace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No this ensures that MACs become obsolete and almost pointless. Why bother making the MAC at all? Just make a marine build. If nobody is willing then you end up behind in the tech race as everything starts taking forever to build with the slow MAC.
It would be the same problems as in NS1 when you had a ######bag marine team to command except in this case you get a tiny bot making stuff super slow rather than the comm jumping out to build stuff himself.. although of course it would be most likely the comm would end up doing this anyway because its going to be faster than sitting on his ass watching a tiny robot slowly build crap.
The only way what you suggest would ever be viable is if MACs become nothing more than a support unit to fix the marines etc. which will lead to the commander having to constantly be micro-ing it and trying to keep up with each squad of marines out there at the same time while also trying to do research in base etc etc.
Making the commander job impossible for anybody who cant multi task hilariously well. Most RTS players maybe able to do this to an acceptable level. But most FPS players? The guys who come to try out the new alien shooter with abit of crossover. their first turn in the comm chair would likely become a nightmare.
In alien1 there had been no military presence, the majority of time they ran from it or tried to hold it off with makeshift weapons, same situation in alien 3 tension got mostly build trough their inability of defending themselfs.
In alien2 yes there had been a military presence, that didn't take much tension out of it because they still had scenes where marines welded doors shut, MARINES welded those doors shut and still everybody had been freaking out.
Imagine the same situation in the movie when they had a MAC.. "guys let the MAC do the welding, if they break trough we just gonna shoot everything including the MAC as it's gonna be in the LoF".
Not to mention that in all these movies the most tension usually resulted in situations where people lacked means to defend themselfs, or are forced to "drop" their defense for a limited time because they needed to do something. Bishop crawling trough a narrow tunnel with just a handgun is to this day one of the worst nightmare scenarios to me.
Yes this is somewhat off topic but i feel the need to point this out because especially the second alien movie makes the idea of marines beeing able to build/weld more appealing to me than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why I wish you read the whole post. I said I think welders still have a place in repairing and welding objectives, but making it so marines can drop structures and do all the building themselves makes the comm useless.
Also the most tense moment of Aliens was the marines discovering the aliens and still failing miserably. No welding involved. That's been my point the entire time: not that welding wasn't tense, but that saying that's the only way you had tense moments was a smack in the face to all other gameplay and sources of inspiration everywhere.
Nanites....
Truth.
That phasing in idea could be interesting. Say that there's a building* at base, that would allow the MAC to phase into a location next to an active marine (or building).
Remember how Charlie said that they were considering squads, where you could rejoin your squad, wherever they were? It'd essentially be the same thing.
Just don't allow the MAC to phase away from that location, unless there's (or it's built) another of those buildings*, since of course it wouldn't be able to. And give the phase a cooldown so you couldn't abuse it.
covering a mac building a pg next to the mainhive,
or building it alone and hoping to survive?
marines should be able to build because a relocate will not work without :P
but don't take the mac away from the commander, in mid- and lategame,
its needed heavily and brings more depth in the game!
Screw you! I played NS for years for fun and competitively, I'm viewing this from BOTH angles, not just the limited point of view from someone who thinks he's Pro.
And if you want to argue about strategy, then your wrong! You wouldn't "always go for the marines - duh" if your a single skulk and your out numbered from a group of marines + macs, then of course you'd go for the mac. whats taking out a single marine gona do?.. nothing. Sounds to me like your the noob.
You cant select one single situation to prove a point, you have to look at all possible situations. its Variety thats the spice of life.
And I think what your forgetting is that NS is a game thats played publically, by all types of people! Its ok for the likes of you and me to take things for granted and not be scared anymore but MOST of the people playing a game like NS play it casually, for a laugh, for fun. Not seriously and competitively.
In your sad life you may have forgotten the fun you had when you first started playing NS, but I havnt, most people havnt, and its clear that even the devs havnt.
It doesn't make it more valid, but often times it makes it more knowledgeable and well reasoned.
It can also make it more biased toward the play-style that the competitive player is used to; which was the point of the post you just quoted. Even knowledgeable, well reasoned opinions can be wrong. :)
As far as this whole topic goes, I'm actually on the fence about what would be best for this game. On the one hand, I loved the tension of building things while hoping I lived through the experience. On the other hand, being a Commander and trying to get people to do what you want is a pain in the ass when nobody wants to listen.
However, NS1 also had the problem of not being "complete" in certain aspects, such as proper A/V feedback for what the Commander wants or what your <b>reward</b> is. I'll get back to "rewards" in a moment; the point here is that if NS2 does take on the "marines can build" aspect of NS1, it <i>can</i> be "done right" if people are able to get a clear and concise direction of what it is the Commander is asking. I know UWE is actually working on this problem with checkpoints and breadcrumbs, so marines building might actually be a <i>more</i> viable option under NS2 circumstances. But there needs to be a bit of a difference. There should be direct orders (you, specific player, should do this thing I asked) and generic "first come, first serve" orders (anyone can go do this, so do it if you can) and even high-priority alert commands (holy hell someone do this now go go go) so people can get a sense of, out of all the orders, what they should be doing. People are often too busy to read and type, while going through a hotkey tree to find the proper voice command is difficult and cumbersome. We need direct, easily accessible, and simple to understand A/V feedback to really get the Natural Selection game type somewhere that anyone can play and enjoy. <b>This entire paragraph is on the "let marines build" side of the argument.</b>
Back to "rewards" which are the main problem of why NS1 probably wouldn't work so well in today's market. A lot of people simply don't care about winning a match nowadays, especially since "progressive meta-gaming" has now taken hold of most genres. I do not consider achievements an answer to this, which is why TF2 now has hats. I'm not suggesting NS2 actually create a meta-game in order to push people into wanting to win; quite the contrary. I think if NS2 needs a simple within-the-game rewards system in order to encourage players to do the Commander's bidding. What if there were a little request interface where the player could request what item they want to upgrade to and, by completing a Commander's request, he gets the upgrade whenever he walks up to a station? Or inversely, the Commander could offer up the rewards and the abiding marines would receive them? There's probably a few other ways this could go, but this explanation and <b>this paragraph is on the "don't let marines build" side of the argument</b> since players are wholly unreliable as builders unless you incentivize the action. And even then, you get player in-fighting to see who can get the reward first, which can instantly ruin a game.
So I guess what I'm saying is, a hybridized version where we get AI peons <i>and</i> marines able to build would probably be the best bet <i>despite</i> the fact this creates redundancy for the Commander.
In most cases, yes it does. The average competitive player plays (played) far more NS than most pub players did, giving them a better understanding for the game. Not to mention that balancing a 15v15 pub is nothing like balancing a 6v6 match, so you can hardly discount their suggestions.
I recommend you check up threads regarding matter, if you still dont change your mind or choose ignorance theres nothing we can do.
<ol type='1'><li>Commanders would not be 100% dependent on Marines to build their structures. Players that do not like building really like this.</li><li>Marines must now maintain stiff front lines. The slow, vulnerable and noisy MACs mean Marines cannot "ninja" or sneak into alien territory. MACs and Siege Cannons (yet to be implemented) must be escorted. Aliens keep most of their gorge-given building abilities. This introduces greater separation between the two teams' styles.</li></ol>
There is a strong demand to bring back the marine's ability to build for the following reasons:
<ul><li>Several players (not all) enjoy putting their gun down and building</li><li>Players miss the NS1 tactic of piling marines on a structure to power-build it</li><li>Escorting the MAC can be slow and difficult</li><li>Players miss the NS1 tactic of stealth building in alien territory</li></ul>
The last two are big parts of what makes NS2 a new and different game than NS1. NS2 is now about the Marines maintaining strong front lines. Only Aliens keep the ability to flank, sneak around and build behind enemy lines. Phase Gates are gone and Siege Cannons are automated tanks. Some NS1 veterans may abhor these changes, but please try to withhold you judgement because the Alpha does not yet have all its features. Wait until we get a chance actually play a more complete NS2 before wishing for a complete return of NS1 game play.
I get the MACs and the mechanism they introduce. Personally, I think it is good if the Marines get back the ability to help build and power-build structures. I do not think it violates the reasons UWE introduced the MACs, nor does it make Marines too powerful. The idea of having to use welders is excellent. It adds a resource-based cost for the tactic. The welders could be purchased by Marines from the armory to replace the 2-second axe so commanders are not burdened with doling them out to marines who may or may not want to help build. Maybe the welders could repair Marine armor like in NS1?
Gorges can't build anything except Hydras right now.
That is because we are early in the Alpha. I thought Gorges would eventually be able to build different types of chambers in addition to the Hydras. Is that incorrect?
I originally thought the MAC was going to be an assist tool for the commander to relieve the commander from yelling "HEY, COME BACK AND BUILD BASE". I thought marines would maintain the ability to build, but MACs would fill the void when marines simply ran off without building something (essentially getting rid of the base monkey role). Now it seems that NS2 will be one giant VIP mode where marines have to escort the VIP (the MAC in this case) to its destination. I can't say I like the thought of that. I, too, was one of those who enjoyed building... not for the sake of building but because it was a deeper involvement in teamwork to achieve the primary goal of defeating the aliens. Now all it feels like is that I can only kill. Putting forth escorting the MACs doesn't quite fill the void of teamwork that actually building a structure held. I'm not entirely sure how the gorge and alien commander will play out, but I'd like to see the gorge remain a participating builder of various structures as well. I know it was frustrating in NS1 trying to get people to spend their res at the get go for RTs and chambers, so I hope there will be a symbiosis between the gorge and alien commander to rectify that.
I'd like to keep the ability to build as a marine and have the MACs as a failsafe builder when the marines fail to build at all. But just as many posts in this thread, it's just my opinion and feelings.
My impression was that would also fall under the discretion of the Alien Commander unless something changes. They definitely cannot build RTs.
However, I haven't heard any official word on that. Anyone else have better memory?
There might still be epic struggles but now that unexpected element will disappear because you'll know exactly where those battles will occur. Now there are constants (floaters & MACs) and restrictions limiting the amount of surprise that can take place.
There might still be epic struggles but now that unexpected element will disappear because you'll know exactly where those battles will occur. Now there are constants (floaters & MACs) and restrictions limiting the amount of surprise that can take place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing you either didn't play that often, or are remembering through extremely rose-colored blinders.
Your assumptions are incorrect. I played frequently from November of 2002 until the bulk of the NS gamers disappeared. Classic and combat. Modded and unmodded.
My memories of these times are just fine.